Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

The "What THFs want from SE" ThreadFollow

#52 Mar 27 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
As said earlier in this thread adding 1.75 cRatio bonus to Trick Attack would go a long way toward gaining THF respect on HNMs. We still wouldn't outdamage SAM or DRK or whatever but WS numbers are what people pay attention to. Not to mention it would help us keep hate on the tank better.

Edited, Mar 27th 2009 6:04am by Lobivopis


I like this idea too. Yes, there is no denying we are invited for Treasure Hunter 2 + .1/.2 endgame. But allowing us at least contribute some small measure of hate control, to a larger degree than we currently do, wouldn't be game breaking I don't think. Particularly in light of the 2 handed adjustments made back in August 2006.
____________________________
Carbuncle


#53 Mar 27 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
****
7,094 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
As said earlier in this thread adding 1.75 cRatio bonus to Trick Attack would go a long way toward gaining THF respect on HNMs. We still wouldn't outdamage SAM or DRK or whatever but WS numbers are what people pay attention to. Not to mention it would help us keep hate on the tank better.

Basically, your "problems" are solved by giving THF Gekko.

Mercy Stroke is just as good as any other DD's WS on HNM, and it still doesn't command any particularly awesome respect.
____________________________
Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#54 Mar 27 2009 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,777 posts
Quote:
Mercy Stroke is just as good as any other DD's WS on HNM, and it still doesn't command any particularly awesome respect.


I'll agree with this, but I have to throw out that this is a catch-22. The reason Mercy Stroke doesn't command awesome respect at HNM is two fold. First, it means building TP with dagger, which compared to the 2 handers is inefficient DoT. Even Mandau will hit for low numbers and by the time a thief has 100% tp on HNM the 2 hander could have tp'd faster and done 5-10 times more damage, leaving a noticable gap in DoT. WS aren't everything so this hurts us.

Secondly, and possibly more importantly, is that when you low man a HNM even today you find times you need to sleep the thing. I've done the dragon's aery at 5 am, I've been in a few Nidhogg battles at this hour... it sucked. We typically had several blms, a pair of paladins, and me with a rdm or whm in a pinch. Mandau inflicts poison, this can't be helped. If they may need to sleep the thing that wrecks the plan, leading to a wipe. In scenarios like this where you know you will NEED sleep Mandau is forbidden.

So yes, while Mercy Stroke isn't regarded with ultimate respect at HNM, the devil is in the details, and it's the mechanics that cause it. The 1.75 cRatio adjustment to trick attack and A+ dagger skill are my favorite ideas so far because they add a nice little perk without being over-the-top OMG BROKED!!, and are within reason.

Edited, Mar 27th 2009 12:09pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#55 Mar 27 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,815 posts
i'm confused... what HNMs are you guys talking about that aren't just burned down like a merit mob (but with a tank, usually PLD/NIN or NIN/DRK)? because i'd bet money that there's less than 5 in the game (excluding mobs that no one melees--incidentally, THFs can make themselves useful in those fights while SAMs and such can't).

all "just make my multipliers bigger" ideas are bad. without exception. "wahhh i want to parse higher."
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#57 Mar 27 2009 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
4,681 posts
Quote:
For all extensive purposes,
For all intents and purposes.
For all intents and purposes.
FOR ALL intents and purposes.
FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES.



We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
____________________________
RNG:75 MNK:75 WHM:75 BRD:75 BST:75 SAM:75 WAR:75 THF:75 BLM:75
DRG:72 SMN:63 DRK:55 NIN:49 PLD:42 RDM:41 DNC:37 SCH:37 BLU:37 COR:20 PUP:22
Woodworking:88 Cooking:60 Alchemy:60 Bone:60 Leather:60 Cloth:60 Smithing:60 Gold:54 Fishing:33
#58 Mar 27 2009 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,054 posts
Quote:
I'll agree with this, but I have to throw out that this is a catch-22. The reason Mercy Stroke doesn't command awesome respect at HNM is two fold. First, it means building TP with dagger, which compared to the 2 handers is inefficient DoT. Even Mandau will hit for low numbers and by the time a thief has 100% tp on HNM the 2 hander could have tp'd faster and done 5-10 times more damage, leaving a noticable gap in DoT. WS aren't everything so this hurts us.


Can be fixed easily.

(insert name of ability here): Increases your weapon's damage but lowers your attack speed.

Increases your weapon's DMG rating and delay by 50%. Lasts 5 minutes with a 5 minute recast.



Edited, Mar 28th 2009 12:44am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#59 Mar 27 2009 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
501 posts
JiggaJ wrote:
For all extensive purposes, the poison doesnt last that long (eyeballing at approx 30 seconds). No fight goes from smooth to "O sh*t" in a matter of seconds, where that duration of the poison will play an impact. Most experienced melee's will turn around anyways if a fight is going poorly in an attempt to slow things down, thus the poison shouldnt proc to begin with. Any melee who keeps swinging when things are looking bleak is a garbage player to begin with.


Tell that to the LS that tried to take Kirin from us after we were having trouble w/ the lessers and Suzaku wiping almost their entire LS in a matter of seconds. Yes, the lesser Suzaku.
____________________________
I am matter...
I am antimatter...
I can see your past...
I can see your future...
I consume time...
And I will consume you!
#60 Mar 27 2009 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,054 posts
Hozu wrote:
JiggaJ wrote:
For all extensive purposes, the poison doesnt last that long (eyeballing at approx 30 seconds). No fight goes from smooth to "O sh*t" in a matter of seconds, where that duration of the poison will play an impact. Most experienced melee's will turn around anyways if a fight is going poorly in an attempt to slow things down, thus the poison shouldnt proc to begin with. Any melee who keeps swinging when things are looking bleak is a garbage player to begin with.


Tell that to the LS that tried to take Kirin from us after we were having trouble w/ the lessers and Suzaku wiping almost their entire LS in a matter of seconds. Yes, the lesser Suzaku.


Mandau's poison should be changed so that it does not wake a mob up.

Edited, Mar 28th 2009 1:05am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#61 Mar 27 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
Tell that to the LS that tried to take Kirin from us after we were having trouble w/ the lessers and Suzaku wiping almost their entire LS in a matter of seconds. Yes, the lesser Suzaku.


Smiley: confused How exactly does poison make lesser suzaku able to kill people?
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#62 Mar 27 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
***
3,777 posts
Quote:
No fight goes from smooth to "O sh*t" in a matter of seconds, where that duration of the poison will play an impact.


Nidhogg can....30 seconds is more than enough. If she takes out a main tank and begins hurricane wing (or just eating) your ally it can very well mean the end of you. This is more than enough to take out a 7-8 man small team group that would otherwise be capable of handling the scenario.

Edited, Mar 28th 2009 12:13am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#63 Mar 27 2009 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
Cyth wrote:
Quote:
For all extensive purposes,
For all intents and purposes.
For all intents and purposes.
FOR ALL intents and purposes.
FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES.



We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


You're just mad that he's black toast and tolerant.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#64 Mar 27 2009 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
******
49,889 posts
JiggaJ wrote:
No fight goes from smooth to "O sh*t" in a matter of seconds,
They're called "Oh shit" moments because they happen instantly.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#65 Mar 27 2009 at 8:38 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,815 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
Quote:
I'll agree with this, but I have to throw out that this is a catch-22. The reason Mercy Stroke doesn't command awesome respect at HNM is two fold. First, it means building TP with dagger, which compared to the 2 handers is inefficient DoT. Even Mandau will hit for low numbers and by the time a thief has 100% tp on HNM the 2 hander could have tp'd faster and done 5-10 times more damage, leaving a noticable gap in DoT. WS aren't everything so this hurts us.


Can be fixed easily.

(insert name of ability here): Increases your weapon's damage but lowers your attack speed.

Increases your weapon's DMG rating and delay by 50%. Lasts 5 minutes with a 5 minute recast.



Edited, Mar 28th 2009 12:44am by Lobivopis


it's called "footwork", and it sucks.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#67 Mar 28 2009 at 5:44 AM Rating: Good
***
1,387 posts
Quote:
First of all, Kirin should be dead before the first summon is up.

Secondly, as was said, Mandau's poison proc isnt the reason Suzaku will wipe any LS, it was Chainspell, which you should have a premeditated course of action (usually Shadowbind) to counter Chainspell. If Suzaku is wiping anyone without having used Chainspell, that is epic epic epic fail.


I know most LSs can do this.

But there is some really really really horrible LSs out there can't even kill kirin the kiting way.

And to tell them to be organized enough to do burns?
____________________________
THF75 BLM75 WAR75 NIN75 RDM51 BST38

lolgaxe+1 wrote:
Shock value isn't always a bad thing. Square Enix does it all the time. I mean, put a Ninja in a Walahra Turban and have him two hour. Is that politically correct? NO.

#69 Mar 28 2009 at 11:57 AM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
*****
15,054 posts
milich wrote:
it's called "footwork", and it sucks.


MNK doesn't use footwork on HNM.

THF isn't allowed to melee HNM.

See the difference?


Edited, Mar 28th 2009 5:04pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#70 Mar 28 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,815 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
milich wrote:
it's called "footwork", and it sucks.


It sucks on MNK because MNK is already a perfect job and doesn't need anything.

Basically this would turn your daggers into axes. Lower TP gain but you hit harder. You'd only use it endgame stuff not merits.



Edited, Mar 28th 2009 5:01pm by Lobivopis


it really would fail... as you may or may not know, base damage has nothing to do with ATT/DEF, which is the primarily thing lowering damage vs HNM/gods. you would be better served TPing fast and WSing more (especially with SA-if-possible and TA) than TPing slow and WSing less. the base damage increase would end up losing to the quicker TP.

this is also why footwork fails for MNK.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#71 Mar 28 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,270 posts
Im not nearly as concerned with out damage on HNM, but the speed that we force-feed HNMs TP while doing so. On some mobs this is completely irrelivant, but others (Especcially when low-man) Thf tp feed is rediculous. Its about the same reason you dont see Nin puffing out their chest on HNM damage. With enough atk buffs, they can hurt things just like anyone else including Thf regarding DoT. (trouble is Thf is often stuffed into the Blm party or tank party either to accomplice mages or to make room for a "DD" in the DD parties. Therefore we miss out on melee buffs exacerbating the problem) 1 handed speed freak jobs like Thf combined with the rather retarded way Mob TP gain is calculated just feed to much tp for the damage to be worthwhile. Add to that Mnk and Nin have access to penance and/or incredible amounts of subtle blow. Thf has neither in any remotly decent DD setup. (yay melee in dragon set -_-)

In any situation where TP matters, Thf is banned. I dont need to be the top of the parse on HNM. We are quite useful otherwise, but i AM tired of being told to go /sam and get swapped in for a WS whenevever someone dies only to be booted after i blow my load. 60tp/3 min. Takes 6 min to do 1 stupid WS then run away. Its completely rediculous.

But then again, when we need DD i just show up on Drg. But when im needed to TH ***** on some ***** TP move mob, we start to cast lots on who has to be the TH ***** that day. Much like going to salvage and only getting Hands/Weapon for the entire run. I do not like to play a game where I dont have fun. I dont care about the damage so much because were adequate, but being unable to participate due to horrid TP mechanics is not my idea of fun.

SE gave us feint and accomp/collaberator to encourage keeping Thf in an alli during HNM, but hate stealing unfortunately puts us in the Blm/Tank parties instead of DD parties. It was a change of good intentions, but not quite the end result we as Thfs were aiming for.
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#72 Mar 28 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
I really can't see any type of situation where "feeding TP" actually matters. If you have but 3 people who are attacking the mob it's going to have TP in under ~15 seconds regardless.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#73 Mar 28 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
501 posts
JiggaJ wrote:
Mistress Melphina wrote:

Nidhogg can....30 seconds is more than enough. If she takes out a main tank and begins hurricane wing (or just eating) your ally it can very well mean the end of you. This is more than enough to take out a 7-8 man small team group that would otherwise be capable of handling the scenario.

If that is your argument, I offer the following solution. When the first tank was killed, the melee's should have turned around. At that very moment, it became recovery mode, not kill mode. Ideally there would also be a second tank. I cant offer my own experience tanking Nidhogg, however considering it has been said many times that Fafnir is inarguably more difficult than Nidhogg, I'm almost certain 1 PLD can hold Nidhogg for 30 seconds. Lets presume this is possibly the worst case scenario: Hurricane wing, '2hr', double attacks and drops tank #1. Ok, that's pretty bad, right? Even worse case scenario: all of PLD#2's timers are down (Flash Sentinel Invincinble UtsiNi UtsuIchi Reprisal)...which I don't believe to be possible since PLD#2 would be the one with hate and dead, but this is make believe...between Nidhogg being Elegied and slowed (and if its not you're doing it wrong), they should still be able to keep alive long enough via cures until their Timers are up, and the poison wears off.

If you're fighting Nid with 7/8 people, you dont have a "main" tank, you have -a- tank, and thats -a- tank whos going to be geared and skilled well enough to get 1shot, as Nid has no means to really one shot anyone.


Way to miss the point that she was making. If you were to use Mandau in a low man situation and the only tank died while poison from the dagger is active there's nothing you can do until it wears. End of story.

JiggaJ wrote:
Hozu wrote:
Tell that to the LS that tried to take Kirin from us after we were having trouble w/ the lessers and Suzaku wiping almost their entire LS in a matter of seconds. Yes, the lesser Suzaku.

First of all, Kirin should be dead before the first summon is up.

Secondly, as was said, Mandau's poison proc isnt the reason Suzaku will wipe any LS, it was Chainspell, which you should have a premeditated course of action (usually Shadowbind) to counter Chainspell. If Suzaku is wiping anyone without having used Chainspell, that is epic epic epic fail.


First off not every LS has the resources to TP burn Kirin. Secondly this happened before TP burning Kirin was even a popular option. What happened was it used Chainspell and got off 3-4 Firaga IIIs in a row in about ~2 seconds. Try and survive that.

JiggaJ wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
JiggaJ wrote:
No fight goes from smooth to "O sh*t" in a matter of seconds,
They're called "Oh shit" moments because they happen instantly.

Once again, there is nothing in this game that goes from controlled to "O sh*t" out of nowhere. The only thing that MAY qualify as such is Astral Flow or an early Mijin, but even then you're expecting it and ready to act.


I think the above situation fits the bill for an "Oh sh*t" moment. Especially for a LS incapable of TP burning Kirin.
____________________________
I am matter...
I am antimatter...
I can see your past...
I can see your future...
I consume time...
And I will consume you!
#75 Mar 28 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
******
22,699 posts
We chainspell stun our lesser suzaku's chainspell. :p
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#76 Mar 28 2009 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
***
1,387 posts
Quote:
SE gave us feint and accomp/collaberator to encourage keeping Thf in an alli during HNM, but hate stealing unfortunately puts us in the Blm/Tank parties instead of DD parties. It was a change of good intentions, but not quite the end result we as Thfs were aiming for.



See, that's what I mean by giving us another sort of strategy on high def mobs. MNK, while the option fails, still has a choice to deal damage reliably. Major deference is MNK can actually hit pretty hard while producing low tp, while THF is stuck with "TP FED" mentality on endgame mobs. (again, 600+ atk and hit for 10s!?)

We don't really have a better option than our daggers on HNMs. We can't rely on bolts because enfeebles don't stack on most endgame mobs. We can't turn to guns because of how cannon shells only stacks to 12, and then we need to worry about the cost. The best option we are considered in an endgame scenerio is to steal hate from mages, an occasional SA/TA for about as much crit as a regular 2h's regular crit on hnms, magically build tp with sj/C+ RATK, or just hit the mob once for the TH.

I understand some people /RNG to make themselves a better job on TPing on HNMs. Unfortunately, that's the only other better option for THFs. We don't even have access to higher tier ranged weapons(obow anyone?), so..where's the damage?
____________________________
THF75 BLM75 WAR75 NIN75 RDM51 BST38

lolgaxe+1 wrote:
Shock value isn't always a bad thing. Square Enix does it all the time. I mean, put a Ninja in a Walahra Turban and have him two hour. Is that politically correct? NO.

Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (1)