**that the crit bonus to the 1st hit is shared with all hits, you can just use your crit rate in your WS gear and add X% from WS. And when testing is done for 200/300% then the same, just a larger % (whatever that may be).**

*Assuming*

*Assuming*

Sage

2,270 posts

I havn't forgotten about this. Just no time right now to sit down for hours killing more bunnies. But whenever my schedule clears up a bit, ill get back to this to get a more reliable sample size. Id really like to get this nailed down for 100/200/300% and repeat the test for drakesbane. I have been curious about this for ages.

** **

*Assuming* that the crit bonus to the 1st hit is shared with all hits, you can just use your crit rate in your WS gear and add X% from WS. And when testing is done for 200/300% then the same, just a larger % (whatever that may be).

*Assuming*

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Quote:

All my WS are 100-102 TP just to minimize any potential scaling crit rate if it exists. I also am parsing by hand. Just have Excel open and put down the damage and also mark if it was a 5tp or 1tp return (__in case i decide to remove second hits later "just in case" the 1st hit gets a different rate.__) The thought occured to me that it might be like damage varies with TP which changes only the FTP of 1st hit. Its kinda out there, but im just covering all my bases.

I just want to highlight this, since stacking this WS garantees the first hit to crit, finding out if the following hits have the same crit rates would be more beneficial, seeing as they will be the hits where any crit bonus actually counts.

But waiting for that 5% chance of a miss and testing that for a crit would suck.

Testing this on low level Yag NINs with utsusemi up would potentially be a way to test the crit values? (although you wont kill them with 1 hit, so dificult to test accuratly and some guesstimation will come into it.)

Scholar

1,983 posts

Quote:

Well, the test would be simple enough. Go to some bunnies with a 5tp/hit dagger and get as many 100tp Evis as you can to go 1 shot baby mobs.

The quote above, about building TP. I didn't even realize this thread existed and was doing my own testing using the same method. I just wanted to cue you guys in on

Thf/Sam

Coffinmaker/IronBullet

Rajas (no Brutal)

= an roughly even

Go shoot 5 bunnies with this and you've got an even 100tp.

Here's what I've come up with so far:

Sample size - 46 WS's

162, 127, 212, 161, 217, 152, 143, 225, 232, 112, 236, 165, 144, 157, 136, 228, 155, 233, 126, 137, 226, 117, 125, 200, 147, 225, 116, 211, 115, 121, 152, 159, 109, 146, 227, 140, 227, 226, 235, 135, 156, 161, 128, 138, 110, 211

Here's a plot chart of the data shown in pDif

I WS'ed in X's knife and an idle TP set; base dmg of WS was 69

Hope this can be contributed to the total numbers. I'd go do more testing but I've run out of time for now.

My recorded crit rate so far:

Sage

2,270 posts

Update: (Also editing OP)

79/200 from me (39.5%)

56/150 from Wyrmnax(37.3%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

**151/396 total (38.1%)**

Subtracting 24% base were left with**14.1%** bonus crit rate at 100 TP with sample size 396. Still need more numbers to make it statistically certain, but were on our way!

Edit: Coffinmaker is a good Idea. I had just been using the 450 delay self bow, but that works a little better.

Hopefully I can get back to this in a couple weeks. Got comp exams and junk for my masters, but hope to have some more time this summer and finish this off. (Though the more help the merrier. If we can get 1k+ before i get back to it all the better xD)

*Edited, May 9th 2009 4:14pm by Banalaty*

79/200 from me (39.5%)

56/150 from Wyrmnax(37.3%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

Subtracting 24% base were left with

Edit: Coffinmaker is a good Idea. I had just been using the 450 delay self bow, but that works a little better.

Hopefully I can get back to this in a couple weeks. Got comp exams and junk for my masters, but hope to have some more time this summer and finish this off. (Though the more help the merrier. If we can get 1k+ before i get back to it all the better xD)

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Sage

2,270 posts

Update: (Also editing OP)

Did another 50 today bringing me to 250

94/250 from me (37.6%)

56/150 from Wyrmnax(37.3%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

166/446 total (37.2%)

13.2% crit bonus so far. 446 sample size.

Did another 50 today bringing me to 250

94/250 from me (37.6%)

56/150 from Wyrmnax(37.3%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

166/446 total (37.2%)

13.2% crit bonus so far. 446 sample size.

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Scholar

160 posts

We'd also need some data on different base crit rates, so we can determine if it's a flat bonus, or based on your base. There's a big difference between a flat 12% bonus, and a 50% of your base bonus.

Scholar

1,983 posts

That is a good point, but I do believe that all the other crit weaponskills are a +% crit. However, now that you mention it, I believe they tested crit via the same method, so they would have reached the same conclusions that we're reaching, and could have been misled if the possibility that you speak of were true, Desoo. Unfortunately I can't think of how to do a test like that. Something would need to be fought for which we did not have capped crit. Something high enough level for us to uncap crit would likely survive more than one WS hit, which could make testing very very difficult. I think it seems that there is at least a decent chance we can hope that it is a straight addition as opposed to a multiplier of your otherwise base crit rate. As physicists/scientists/philosophers say, the simplest answer is more often than not the correct one. Although SE is surely not an elegant universe.

Sage

1,304 posts

Actually, this would be pretty easy to test if you know someone that doesn't yet have crit merits. That way you could still use capped crit rate to determine whether the bonus is a flat +% or if it is a %.

Scholar

1,983 posts

I think the difficult part would be telling when you got crits. Maybe it's easier than I imagine. I just can imagine that anything that is high enough level to where we're not already at capped crit rate with either base stats or -stats (think stumbling sandals) would quite possibly survive even more than two EV hits. It could be quite difficult if not impossible to tell how many hits crit given the net damage. For example, one hit critting at a mid-range crit-cap pDif could do possibly as much damage as 2 hits critting at a lower pDif and could also possibly do as much damage as 0 hits critting at a high pDif. Even with capped pDif, there is still pDif fluctuation. Add more hits, and it may become difficult (if not impossible?) to tell for sure in many situations just how many crits you got. At least I think this is the case; dk if I'm missing something.

Sage

2,270 posts

It would be nigh impossible to do it with more than 1 hit. Even if its only 2 hits. If you get Crit+normal (lets say 3.0 crit and 2.4) the damage would look like 2 hits at 2.7. Could be 2 crits, or only one. similarly, 2.7+2.3= 2.5. 2x crits? 1x? Also works on the low end. 2.6 crit+ 1.7 normal=2.35. There are TONS of combinations of 2 hits that would put the damage in an unreadable range. As long as the low end of crits is close to the high end of normal, testing more than 1 hit is going to be impossible. If there were more equips that acted like X's that would empower crits, then you could theoretically get enough +Crit damage to widen the gap to test, but alas theres nothing.

Really, about the closest we can get to a "test" would be through testing vorpal thrust, backhand blow, vorpal scythe, dulling arrow, power slash and other 1 hit crit-able WS on tougher mobs and hope it applies to all crit WS. Thf cant do it.

But im encouraged in this end. Raging rush tests ages ago cite +10% crit increase, our test here is looking to go that way (not sure yet) and Drgs are testing drakes (REALLY small sample so far) and at 1st glance is also looking like a possible 10%. If these all turn out to be 10%, I would feel confident in testing the straight +X% or or +50% of base using other 1 hit crit WS on tougher mobs and apply it to ours.

If an OLD WS like raging rush shares the same properties as Evis (got changed WAY later to +crit) and and entirely recent new addition to the game (Drakes) all share the same pattern in +crit%, its a safe assumption that SE is very methodically making all crit WS work the same way no matter when they are implemented, and thus would all work the same way in every way. It doesnt look like they said "Well evis is to weak, so we will give it a +20% crit rate instead." If all crit WS show ~10% more over a base of 24%, there are really only 2 options.

A) a +10% flat boost.

B) a +50% from dex crit. (if merits were included, it would be +12% if it were +50%).

since all crit WS are looking to be the same bonus, we can just test 1 hit crit WS on tougher mobs to quickly determine if its flat or based on our crit rate.

______________________

Edit: Idea

You "can" test it on tougher mobs that wont die in 1 hit, but you would need to get it nearly dead then kill with WS. ie get mob to 5% then WS or something like that. But doing that solo would be hard as you would need to get to 100TP, stop meleeing and still manage to get it to a low% health. Probably work best in a duo. Wear some -dex gear, go fight some normal colibri with a friend. get 100TP and wait for them to nearly kill. Pop in WS. reapeat. Be a pain, but something like that would be possible if we have some really industrious people wiling to do it.

*Edited, May 26th 2009 12:21pm by Banalaty*

Really, about the closest we can get to a "test" would be through testing vorpal thrust, backhand blow, vorpal scythe, dulling arrow, power slash and other 1 hit crit-able WS on tougher mobs and hope it applies to all crit WS. Thf cant do it.

But im encouraged in this end. Raging rush tests ages ago cite +10% crit increase, our test here is looking to go that way (not sure yet) and Drgs are testing drakes (REALLY small sample so far) and at 1st glance is also looking like a possible 10%. If these all turn out to be 10%, I would feel confident in testing the straight +X% or or +50% of base using other 1 hit crit WS on tougher mobs and apply it to ours.

If an OLD WS like raging rush shares the same properties as Evis (got changed WAY later to +crit) and and entirely recent new addition to the game (Drakes) all share the same pattern in +crit%, its a safe assumption that SE is very methodically making all crit WS work the same way no matter when they are implemented, and thus would all work the same way in every way. It doesnt look like they said "Well evis is to weak, so we will give it a +20% crit rate instead." If all crit WS show ~10% more over a base of 24%, there are really only 2 options.

A) a +10% flat boost.

B) a +50% from dex crit. (if merits were included, it would be +12% if it were +50%).

since all crit WS are looking to be the same bonus, we can just test 1 hit crit WS on tougher mobs to quickly determine if its flat or based on our crit rate.

______________________

Edit: Idea

You "can" test it on tougher mobs that wont die in 1 hit, but you would need to get it nearly dead then kill with WS. ie get mob to 5% then WS or something like that. But doing that solo would be hard as you would need to get to 100TP, stop meleeing and still manage to get it to a low% health. Probably work best in a duo. Wear some -dex gear, go fight some normal colibri with a friend. get 100TP and wait for them to nearly kill. Pop in WS. reapeat. Be a pain, but something like that would be possible if we have some really industrious people wiling to do it.

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3,777 posts

For the record, taking into account the data provided I've done several calculations on the subject of evisceration versus dancing edge with x's knife considered and the data is pretty interesting. I've run scenarios with strong and weak gear, at high and low pDif, with solo and stacked weaponskills. This is 8 different scenarios, and the conclusions are pretty clear. When soloing weaponskill with x's knife, evisceration is the way to go. When stacking weaponskills, dancing edge generally wins due to the fact the first hit has the dex/agi mod and that crit makes up for the power lost from the rest of the weaponskill not criting.

This thread isn't intended to show math of DE vs Evis, so I'll make another in the coming week or two with numbers. I wanna do something new and get a blogger account and link to the math, that way my OP isn't 10 miles long. I'll just keep a summary as the op, and for those who wanna see the hard math they can click the link to the blog, which will make everything so much easier. It'll take me a while to post the numbers though (eight scenarios is a lot), but I'll get to it when I can.

*Edited, May 26th 2009 12:45pm by Melphina*

This thread isn't intended to show math of DE vs Evis, so I'll make another in the coming week or two with numbers. I wanna do something new and get a blogger account and link to the math, that way my OP isn't 10 miles long. I'll just keep a summary as the op, and for those who wanna see the hard math they can click the link to the blog, which will make everything so much easier. It'll take me a while to post the numbers though (eight scenarios is a lot), but I'll get to it when I can.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Scholar

1,983 posts

Meldi wrote:

Actually, this would be pretty easy to test if you know someone that doesn't yet have crit merits. That way you could still use capped crit rate to determine whether the bonus is a flat +% or if it is a %.

Melphina wrote:

This thread isn't intended to show math of DE vs Evis, so I'll make another in the coming week or two with numbers. I wanna do something new and get a blogger account and link to the math, that way my OP isn't 10 miles long.

Sage

389 posts

Took me a while to nail down a second batch of tests... Been keeping track on the last few days...

103 more WSes on bastok bees

25 crits -> this is lower than my base at 24% Dex @ 98 when doing these, so i am pretty sure i am capped. And 4 crit merits.

103 more WSes on bastok bees

25 crits -> this is lower than my base at 24% Dex @ 98 when doing these, so i am pretty sure i am capped. And 4 crit merits.

Sage

1,304 posts

The only thing with this is that it will take on the order of 10000 tests to be accurate to within 1% as to what the bonus crit rate would be. 1000 tests would put it within 5% definately, but that would mean that it could be anywhere from 8-18% at this point in the testing if the 13% holds steady.

Sage

1,304 posts

Shamaya wrote:

Meldi wrote:

Last % should be 36%.

Sage

2,270 posts

Update: (Also editing OP)

Adding new 103 from Wyrmnax

94/250 from me (37.6%)

81/253 from Wyrmnax(32.0%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

191/549 total (34.8%)

10.8% crit bonus so far. 549 sample size.

Well Wyrms low set dropped it right on its face regarding 10%. 450 to go for 3% margin of error GO! Thanks again for the assistance guys.

Adding new 103 from Wyrmnax

94/250 from me (37.6%)

81/253 from Wyrmnax(32.0%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

191/549 total (34.8%)

10.8% crit bonus so far. 549 sample size.

Well Wyrms low set dropped it right on its face regarding 10%. 450 to go for 3% margin of error GO! Thanks again for the assistance guys.

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Sage

389 posts

Sleepless night, waiting for NM windows to open, i decided to make myself useful and give you a nice number

Dex = 99 (yey for lifebelt with +1 dex augment...)

Crit merits = 4

97 more WSes on bastok bees - to complement my previous 103

41 crits

EDIT: 41 crits, NOT 71. As nice as that would be.

*Edited, May 28th 2009 1:30pm by wyrmnax*

Dex = 99 (yey for lifebelt with +1 dex augment...)

Crit merits = 4

97 more WSes on bastok bees - to complement my previous 103

41 crits

EDIT: 41 crits, NOT 71. As nice as that would be.

Sage

2,270 posts

Update: (Also editing OP)

Adding new 97 from Wyrmnax

94/250 from me (37.6%)

122/350 from Wyrmnax(34.9%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

232/646 total (35.9%)

11.9% crit bonus so far. 646 sample size.

*Edited, May 28th 2009 4:25pm by Banalaty*

Adding new 97 from Wyrmnax

94/250 from me (37.6%)

122/350 from Wyrmnax(34.9%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

232/646 total (35.9%)

11.9% crit bonus so far. 646 sample size.

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Sage

389 posts

50 more. 16 crits in total.

And that brings me to freaking 500 WSes on bees. It takes a while.

How many we need again for confirming?

EDIT: Mistake. im still on 400 -_-"

It *really* takes a while.

*Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 12:12pm by wyrmnax*

And that brings me to freaking 500 WSes on bees. It takes a while.

How many we need again for confirming?

EDIT: Mistake. im still on 400 -_-"

It *really* takes a while.

Sage

2,270 posts

Update: (Also editing OP)

Adding new 50 from Wyrmnax

94/250 from me (37.6%)

138/400 from Wyrmnax(34.5%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

248/696 total (35.6%)

11.6% crit bonus so far. 696 sample size.

Thanks a bajillion Wyrmnax. This would take forever if it wasnt for your help.

*Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 4:52pm by Banalaty*

Adding new 50 from Wyrmnax

94/250 from me (37.6%)

138/400 from Wyrmnax(34.5%)

16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

248/696 total (35.6%)

11.6% crit bonus so far. 696 sample size.

Thanks a bajillion Wyrmnax. This would take forever if it wasnt for your help.

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Sage

879 posts

Has this testing died?

I am currently finishing skilling up dagger on ninja / warrior so i can get the WS, and i plan to provide info once i have done so, but if the thread is completely dead then there is little that i could do...

I am currently finishing skilling up dagger on ninja / warrior so i can get the WS, and i plan to provide info once i have done so, but if the thread is completely dead then there is little that i could do...

TybudX wrote:

The hardest part of this game is finding 5-17 other people who aren't retarded.

Sage

2,270 posts

Well, unfortunately, i have deleted FFXI (and every other game) from my PC (not my POL account, just un-installed the data) in an effort to finish my masters before august graduation, so Im a bit on hold for actually doing anything in-game. I have not forgotten it, just moved it to the back burner for a while. I will return to this when my RL is fixed up all nice and shiny.

I am still watching this thread (obviously :P) and will continue to update it if data is presented, but i wont be adding any additional data myself for a while.

*Edited, Jul 7th 2009 2:07pm by Banalaty*

I am still watching this thread (obviously :P) and will continue to update it if data is presented, but i wont be adding any additional data myself for a while.

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Scholar

1,983 posts

Sorry to bump this from 3 pages back, but I think this is an important project that shouldn't be given up on.

*pDIF Caps Testing for 1H and 2H Weapons*

Here's some recent information on cRatio-capped pDif values (normal min/max; crit min/max), done by Masamune on BG. His thread got severely overlooked. His sampling doesn't culminate into the revised charted pDif formulae we've been seeking, but it's still important. With some confidence, it appears that both the 1hander and 2hander pDif maxes have been raised, indeed with 2hander receiving a greater boost.

For this test, it means that we should keep the normal max and the crit min in mind when parsing data. It would be bad the crit %'s we derived from this thread were partially the result of confused analysis (due to thinking in terms of the old pDif values). Let's finish this testing ^^

*Edited, Oct 20th 2009 12:10pm by Shamaya*

Here's some recent information on cRatio-capped pDif values (normal min/max; crit min/max), done by Masamune on BG. His thread got severely overlooked. His sampling doesn't culminate into the revised charted pDif formulae we've been seeking, but it's still important. With some confidence, it appears that both the 1hander and 2hander pDif maxes have been raised, indeed with 2hander receiving a greater boost.

For this test, it means that we should keep the normal max and the crit min in mind when parsing data. It would be bad the crit %'s we derived from this thread were partially the result of confused analysis (due to thinking in terms of the old pDif values). Let's finish this testing ^^

Scholar

616 posts

must necrobump this as it's relevant to my interests

THF74/NIN37 - changed owners (i retired) 10/16/2004

Yarly

BRD PLD THF MNK WAR RNG RDM

http://www.guildwork.com/u/yarly/

Sage

2,270 posts

Bump.

There is now more reason than ever to finish this up. Now that we have a crit damage boost trait, it is more important than ever to get the crit rate on Evis pinned down so we can see just how much the crit damage boost will, by extension, boost Evis. Unfortunately I now work full time and have had to cut back severely on FFXI so there is little or no time to address testing like this anymore >< However I will be happy to maintain this thread and update our results as they come in. Please assist! We need good numbers on this WS to really measure its new power accurately!

We will also need to keep up with the pdif updates Shamaya mentioned a couple posts up. If in doubt, just post the raw WS numbers and we can figure out what to do with it.

There is now more reason than ever to finish this up. Now that we have a crit damage boost trait, it is more important than ever to get the crit rate on Evis pinned down so we can see just how much the crit damage boost will, by extension, boost Evis. Unfortunately I now work full time and have had to cut back severely on FFXI so there is little or no time to address testing like this anymore >< However I will be happy to maintain this thread and update our results as they come in. Please assist! We need good numbers on this WS to really measure its new power accurately!

We will also need to keep up with the pdif updates Shamaya mentioned a couple posts up. If in doubt, just post the raw WS numbers and we can figure out what to do with it.

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