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Evis crit rate testingFollow

#1 Mar 16 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Changed thread name and tracking our total here for easy reference. Will be updating as we go.

As of 6/3/09:

100TP:
Sample: 248/696 crits total (35.6%)
Subtracting 24% base were left with 11.6%

200TP:
????

300TP:
????

11.6% bonus to the 1st hit after subtracting 24% base crit rate for 100TP Evis

*Sample still small so exact % is not conclusive yet. But there definitely is SOME significant crit bonus.*

Past the halfway point. still need ~300 more to get 3% margin of error to be more confident in our results. Need more samples! {Help me out!}
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Original OP:
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*This is NOT an Evis VS DE thread!*

Question came up on a Drakesbane thread about Crit rate for all the "Crit varies with TP" WSs.

Has anyone actually gone out and 1shot eviscerated bunnies to determine what if any Crit rate bonus there is at 100TP? (and 200/300 would be nice to know as well, but less important). If any previous tests exists, i would love to read them. If not, i figure its time to do one, but why waste our time if its already been done.

For the love of god, i dont want this to be another "People with Mandau/X's with Evis VS everyone else supporting DE" thread. I am only trying to find out if Crit WS have a crit rate bonus, and if it is the same bonus (or lack of) across all crit WS.

*This is NOT an Evis VS DE thread!*

Edited, Mar 16th 2009 5:24pm by Banalaty

Edited, Mar 20th 2009 2:33pm by Banalaty

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Edited, Apr 12th 2009 5:20am by Banalaty

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Edited, May 27th 2009 6:52pm by Banalaty

Edited, May 28th 2009 4:27pm by Banalaty

Edited, May 28th 2009 4:28pm by Banalaty

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 4:51pm by Banalaty
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#2 Mar 16 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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I'm curious to know this as well. I believe the modification to evisceration wherein it was given the ability to critical came about back around the time the dagger damage update was introduced, I think either the same one or a few months away. I don't know of any testing to find out what kind of critical adjustments the tp tiers would give. Given the way blue mage spells work it is logical to believe that evisceration has a critical modifier bonus dependent on tp, most likely at the 100%, 200%, and 300% anchor tiers respectively. There are other weaponskills that can critical too, but they may (and probably DO) have differing critical modifiers at eact TP anchor. That means we have to do testing specifically with evisceration since it's the weaponskill in question. That leaves a test to be devised. The principals would be the following.

Hypothesis: Evisceration will modify critical hit rates according to the ratio of X + Y == critical hit %

Where X == Your base rate of criticals (IE: If base rate is 15% then X == 15%)

and Y == the TP anchor adjustment.

as an example, if your base crit rate was 12% and crits were modded by 20% at 100% tp, 40% at 200% tp, and 60% at 300% tp you would see 32% crit rate at 100%, 52% at 200%, and 72% at 300% tp.


The drawback here is that each anchor would have to be tested, because it is not guarenteed that the increase is linear. IE: If 100% TP gives 20% increase, 200% may only give 35%, and 300% may only grant 50%, an increase of 20%, then 15% for each added tier, or diminishing returns. Alternately the formula may work that at 100% you get 15% increase, at 200% you get 35% increase, and 300% you get 60% increase, or INCREASING returns. IE: 15%, 20% and 25% for each tier broken.


There is no guarentee that other critical weaponskills will work identically to ours, so we would have to find the answers for ourselves. It's an interesting concept, but I'm at a loss offhand as to a way to devise a proper test for that. The test would have to encompass the following 4 solutions

1:) Evisceration has no tp modifiers at any of the anchors but criticals naturally.
2:) Evisceration has a critical modifier that scales linearly, wherein each tier of 100%, 200%, and 300% grants an equal gain from the last.
3:) Evisceration has a critical modifier that scales upon diminishing returns, wherein the 100% anchor grants a larger increase than the 200% anchor, and the 300% anchor grants an increase equal to or less than the 200% anchor.
4:) Evisceration has a critical modifier that scales upon increasing returns, wherin the 300% anchor will grant a larger increase than the 200%, and the 200% anchor will be a larger increase than the 100% anchor.


Only one of these solutions is the correct one, but I'm not certain of a way to devise a test that will come to the proper conclusion offhand. So with that, I'll throw that on the field and let you guys respond with your thoughts on the matter.

Edited, Mar 16th 2009 7:18pm by Melphina
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#3 Mar 16 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, the test would be simple enough. Go to some bunnies with a 5tp/hit dagger and get as many 100tp Evis as you can to go 1 shot baby mobs. You would have capped natural crit rate, and after enough Evis, we could easily determine the crit rate. Repeat for 200/300 TP. Compare Evis crit rate to Base crit rate (20+4%with merits on lv 1 mobs)

That would tell us if it has a crit bonus at 100, and how it scales at 200/300, but would take quite a bit of time. After the 1/2/300 crit rates are determind, a similar test at 150 TP would tell us if it is anchored or scaling.

The test is simple, just very tedious and to do it with 100% accuracy. If you used a 5tp/hit dagger and TPed on 1 shotting lv 1 mobs, you could get 100 TP every time since triple wouldnt ***** it up. /sam reccommended for 60TP bonus to speed things along xD

However, I would be more than happy to just have the 100TP mods for now as that is the most relevant. Think i might try to do a few whenever i have some time and start recording some data.
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Edit:
Did some STP calcs and /Sam with Blau, Raja/Brutal (+21 STP) gives blau 5.9TP/hit which puts you at 100.3 TP after 17 hits. I will be using this setup to test.

Edited, Mar 16th 2009 6:46pm by Banalaty

Edit #Dos:
Realized would be different after a 60TP med. After Med, I end up with 101.3 TP. Honestly IF it is scaling TP, im going to ignore the differences between 100.3 and 101.3 TP as it would be so small it wont change the outcome to any significant degree. If its anchored it makes zero difference. All WS will be done with either 100.3 tp or 101.3 TP and used to measure 100TP Crit value.

Edited, Mar 16th 2009 6:55pm by Banalaty
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#4 Mar 16 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Before too much further discussion gets added, I would like to note that for a test of this calibur the Martial Knife would probably prove useful. It takes 100% weaponskills and makes them 200%, and 200% will be 300%. This would lessen the burden of testing that annoying 300% tp anchor tremendously.
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#5 Mar 16 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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lol wow thats something of a "Duh" moment with Martial knife. I have begun testing 100 TP. I eventually switched to getting a 450 delay self bow to build TP faster by sniping worms and bunnies for more TP instead of engage/smack 5.9tp/disengage repeat.

Just 40 WS right now so no point in posting the results yet, but were on the way to new knowledge!

(Sometimes i think it would be nice for SE to just release comprehensive game mechanics and save the forum people countless hours of testing :S)
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#6 Mar 16 2009 at 11:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Batch #1: 100 WS
I realize its a small sample size, but did batch of 100 WS today and gonna quit till tomorrow.

So far, i have 40/100 Evis crits on Wron bunnies. All WS done between 100-102 TP. I think its safe to say there is SOME bonus as 40% crit rate on 100 trials its really unlikely that i have 24% crit rate and its just that much margin of error. The question is how much. 16% bonus from this small sample, but that could still be 10, 15, or even 20. Will continue testing later and post raw data when im done if you guys want it.
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#7 Mar 17 2009 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?
#8 Mar 17 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?


your base crit rate on bunnies should be 20%, 24% with merits, more with +crit weapons.

What happens if the first hit gets a higher crit chance then subsequent hits. Its a nice thing to know, i'd be very interested in knowing ws crit rates of RR, BJ, and Db, and if all crit ws's have the same % crit chance.



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#9 Mar 17 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?


Because he is performing the test on a level 1 rabbit there is little doubt that his dex is 50+++ over the targets agility, so his crit rate will be capped. That means 20% + 4% meriits == 24%. The variance in crits would be the modifier at whatever tp anchor and scaling rate (if scaling is applicable) to your current tp level.

This is a test I'm interested in pursuing because it addresses something that has been on my mind for some time. There is a logical progression in realative power of most weaponskill types. There are a few exceptions I can think of such as sidewinder that a lower version is superior to the quested or higher level one, but many jobs use their quested weaponskill for everyday use. Asuran Fists is a prime example of this, although as I said there are other exceptions such as rampage etc etc.

Evisceration is capanble of opening and closing a darkness chain, which coupled with shark bite has been viewed for years as their purposes, and dancing edge to be the main damage on lower eva/defense targets. This trend is still true, but what if we've been underestimating evisceration for all this time? The adjustment that allowed it to crit was taken without much testing, so I never heard of what it did, many assumed it had no modifier at the time and it wasn't spoken much of since. Just playing with numbers here

with 136 dex and 46 chr, wsc of dancing edge is 48 and WSC of evisceration is 33. If you add this to blau at capped str you get base damage 91 for dancing edge and 76 for evisceration. When you multiply this by 5 swings each you get

--DE 455 (I'm ignoring fTP for simplicity here since its a small mod on first hit)
--Evisceration 380

The biggest change then is the difference a crit gives in high attack versus low attack scenarios. Conbsider pDIF at 1.2

DE -- 455 x 1.2 == 546 damage

Evis with 1 crit at 1.2 pDIF

( 76 x 4 x 1.2) + (76 x 2.2) == 532 damage

with 2 crits

(76 x 3 x 1.2 + (76 x 2 x 2.2) == 608

Evisceration needs to critical once to be 14 actual dfamage lower, twice it will be 62 actual damage higher


In a high pDIF now I'll give 1.75

DE

--455 x 1.75 == 796

Evisc with 1 crit -- (76 x 4 x 1.75) + (76 x 2.75) == 741
Evisc with 2 crits -- (76 x 3 x 1.75) + ( 76 x 2 x 2.75) = 817 damage

Here 1 crit is 55 damage less than DE and 2 crits is only 21 damage more.

NOTE: The fTP of the first hit of dancing edge means DE DOES get a stronger weighting in the above calculations than I gave results of. The above calcs are meant only to show a trend of how the weaponskills differ at varying pDIF ratios, the actual results are not to be used for specifics.

In a low pDIF scenario with a critical rate greater than 30-35% evisceration can theoretically outperform dancing edge, and when you tack on the earlier discussion of x's knife perhaps the stories of evisceration not sucking are not so unfounded after all. I want to see more testing to see what kind of mods we're looking at in crit increases, it warrants consideration at the least. The change probably wouldn't be much in overall performance, but you never know. And with x's, it would be a bigger change ^^.


Edited, Mar 17th 2009 1:38pm by Melphina
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#10 Mar 17 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not to nitpick or anything, but neglecting the fTP bonus of DE kind of skews the results, Not by much, but in your second example 2x crit on evis would be more or less equal damage with DE instead of beating it by a few.

This definately needs more investigation.
#11 Mar 17 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Not to nitpick or anything, but neglecting the fTP bonus of DE kind of skews the results, Not by much, but in your second example 2x crit on evis would be more or less equal damage with DE instead of beating it by a few.


I know, I ignored fTP for simplicty just to show the trend. In actuality in a high pDIF scenario dancing edge's fTP mod holds more weight than low pDIF. The calculation was to show that "theoretically" evisceration and dancing edge will be similar in performance with a crit mod. I edited the above post to emphasize this point. I still think the lead goes to dancing edge sans x's, but the purpose of the discussion at hand was to evaluate evisceration and it's crit mod, so I don't want to go off on a tangent and turn it into something it was not meant to be. Pdif is not usually 1.75 so the number theorycrafting was only meant to exemplify a trend rather than be used as a reference on specifics.

At any rate, I think this warrens more testing. With no madrigal my pDIF at birds with subs is 1.0-1.02 and with madrigal its in the 1.2 ish range, so it's worth noting that with my high dex build evisc may hold a place. I'm curious to continue testing.

Edited, Mar 17th 2009 1:39pm by Melphina
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#12 Mar 17 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would recommend everyone check out Treelo's thread on KI if they haven't already. His opinion is obviously biased towards Evisceration, but he does have parses to back it up. Not huge amounts of data, but enough to provide a starting point.

His basic opinion is that without X's, DE and evisceration are essentially equal. Once X's is obtained though, he thinks DE shouldn't even be used. I don't know if I completely aggree with it, but it is kind of hard to argue with parses.
#13 Mar 17 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Starting my batch of tests.

Its boooooring...

I figure if we can get data from more than 1 person we can get a better estimate faster.
#14 Mar 17 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?
your base crit rate on bunnies should be 20%, 24% with merits, more with +crit weapons.

You know what they say about assumptions.

Its trivial to measure your crit rate using a parser, so y not.
#15 Mar 17 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ineptvagrant wrote:
Its trivial to measure your crit rate using a parser, so y not.


Measuring your crit rate with a parser would require actually engaging the mobs rather than using your ranged attack, otherwise you'd be making a similar assumption about the crit rates being the same.
#16 Mar 17 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ineptvagrant wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?
your base crit rate on bunnies should be 20%, 24% with merits, more with +crit weapons.

You know what they say about assumptions.

Its trivial to measure your crit rate using a parser, so y not.


Because it's not an assumption, it's a mathematical fact.
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#17 Mar 17 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I manage to get in game sometime, then I'll give this a whirl and try to help the cause. I'm shocked that this test hasn't been performed previously, quite honestly. Then again, I always took it for granted that DE > Evisceration because of the old Evisceration.

Since I can't parse (PS2 go!), I'll just record my damage values and post those as results whenever I get around to it. I have 4 crit merits, so it won't introduce any oddities in the data.

Are you doing anything special, Aanalaty, or just using a dagger, getting up to 100 TP and going to town?

Edited, Mar 17th 2009 5:15pm by ChanchanXI
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#18 Mar 17 2009 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Im not doing anything particular really. Just go /sam with a bow (to TP faster) and get to 100TP sniping things then walk up to a bunny and eviscerate its face.

All my WS are 100-102 TP just to minimize any potential scaling crit rate if it exists. I also am parsing by hand. Just have Excel open and put down the damage and also mark if it was a 5tp or 1tp return (in case i decide to remove second hits later "just in case" the 1st hit gets a different rate.) The thought occured to me that it might be like damage varies with TP which changes only the FTP of 1st hit. Its kinda out there, but im just covering all my bases.

Otherwise just note your stats so you can figure out your WS mods and accurately measure which damage ranges are crit and which arent.

If you are exact in your recording method and can determine if its a crit or not with 100% certainty your welcome to assist in this project. Even if your not sure about crits etc, if you parse the WS number along with your base stats, we can figure it out for ya.

Running a parse slows down my PC a bit, so i wont be parsing my melee crit rate. If you feel the need to, by all means, but i wont be the one doing it.
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#19 Mar 18 2009 at 4:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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After 150 1 hit eviscerations at 100 - 104 tp, i got 56 crits.

Thats 56/150 = 37% crits

at 104 dex and with 4 crit merits.

This would give evisceration a 10~15% crit bonus.

Seeing Banalaty's test, i can see the idea that evisceration has a bonus to crit rates at eve 100 tp. Cumulative with Banalaty's this gives us 96/250 crits, or 38.4% crits.

Sample size is still too low to determine what the bonus is, but i think we can say that there is a bonus.
#20 Mar 20 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Did another 100, so 200 Total from me so far

79/200 from me (39.5%)
56/150 from Wyrmnax(37.3%)
135/350 total (38.6%)


From 24% base, 14.6% between us. Starting to look very much like a good 15% bonus at 100TP.

Its been a while since i took statistics, what is the margin of error for 350? and how many do we need to get 95% certainty? Forgot how to figure that. If nothing else its basically proven there IS a bonus, and very likely to be 15%, just forget how to figure HOW sure it is to be 15% based on sample size.

Thanks for the help Wyrm. Lets get this thing down pat.
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#21 Mar 20 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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350 samples gives you roughly +/- 5.2% margin of error with 95% certainty. So your testing so far shows that you can be very confident that the bonus is between roughly 10% and 20%.

Given that this is a programmed value and that the value is likely to be a 'nice' number, if you can get within a 3% margin of error then it's pretty acceptable to state that as the 'real' value, barring further testing to disprove it.

To get a 3% margin of error with a 95% confidence interval you need about 1050 samples. I'd say 1000 samples is good enough (3.08% margin of error).

#22 Mar 22 2009 at 9:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Bumping, relevant to my interests.

I would assist if I had the play time Smiley: frown

EDIT:
Dunno if this is helpful to the cause (maybe you can contact this guy and he could help, but it's definitely relevant.)

Edited, Mar 23rd 2009 1:16am by SillyXSara
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#23 Apr 10 2009 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Let's make sure I understand evisceration correctly.. Every hit in the ws has a chance to crit, right? At 100% tp it seems to have a +15% crit boost, meaning about a 39% critical rate for each hit. Right?
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#24 Apr 11 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I always took evis for granted up until my brother (Galkan 75DNC/NIN) has had generally higher returns with his unstacked(building flourish) Evis rather than his unstacked DE, Opposite to what I expected as DNC has decent CHR.

Not sure if anyone has tested evis to see if the fTP or DEX modifiers have been changed when they changed it to a crit WS, I would my self but I don't know how.


Edited, Apr 11th 2009 11:10am by Zelphan

eidt - syntax etc.

Edited, Apr 11th 2009 11:10am by Zelphan
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#25 Apr 11 2009 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Let's make sure I understand evisceration correctly.. Every hit in the ws has a chance to crit, right? At 100% tp it seems to have a +15% crit boost, meaning about a 39% critical rate for each hit. Right?


Meaning a 39% critical hit rate for at least the first hit, assuming you have capped your critical hit rate for a given mob. I would suspect that the crit bonus is the same for all hits throughout the WS, but it's an assumption that would need to be explicitly stated.

An easier way to think about it would just be to add 15% to your base crit rate (without SA/TA's influence) for a given camp and figure that to be your chance to crit per hit on the WS. Even then, this was only preliminary. I think there's still a +/- 3% on that data? Something like that. But SE likes even numbers, right? >.> So it's probably about 15%.
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#26 Apr 12 2009 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
An easier way to think about it would just be to add 15% to your base crit rate (without SA/TA's influence) for a given camp and figure that to be your chance to crit per hit on the WS.


Well, I'll be wsing in 128~ dex so I'm pretty sure I'll have a 24% base crit rate. :p (Still got a couple more upgrades to do as well..)
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#27 Apr 12 2009 at 1:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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I havn't forgotten about this. Just no time right now to sit down for hours killing more bunnies. But whenever my schedule clears up a bit, ill get back to this to get a more reliable sample size. Id really like to get this nailed down for 100/200/300% and repeat the test for drakesbane. I have been curious about this for ages.

*Assuming*
that the crit bonus to the 1st hit is shared with all hits, you can just use your crit rate in your WS gear and add X% from WS. And when testing is done for 200/300% then the same, just a larger % (whatever that may be).
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#28 Apr 18 2009 at 5:10 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
All my WS are 100-102 TP just to minimize any potential scaling crit rate if it exists. I also am parsing by hand. Just have Excel open and put down the damage and also mark if it was a 5tp or 1tp return (in case i decide to remove second hits later "just in case" the 1st hit gets a different rate.) The thought occured to me that it might be like damage varies with TP which changes only the FTP of 1st hit. Its kinda out there, but im just covering all my bases.



I just want to highlight this, since stacking this WS garantees the first hit to crit, finding out if the following hits have the same crit rates would be more beneficial, seeing as they will be the hits where any crit bonus actually counts.


But waiting for that 5% chance of a miss and testing that for a crit would suck.

Testing this on low level Yag NINs with utsusemi up would potentially be a way to test the crit values? (although you wont kill them with 1 hit, so dificult to test accuratly and some guesstimation will come into it.)
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#29 May 09 2009 at 3:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, the test would be simple enough. Go to some bunnies with a 5tp/hit dagger and get as many 100tp Evis as you can to go 1 shot baby mobs.
Hey guys, I'm sort of back (hopefully) from a very long forum hiatus. I got X's Knife in march and soon became impressed with evisceration damage. I've been keeping up with the KI forums and Treelo's evisceration threads (this one and this one) really captured my attention. I've been seeing some fairly impressive numbers, for example these unstacked WS (EV1, EV2). Those were highly buffed, but given being unstacked I feel that I've been underestimating Evisceration for a long time.

The quote above, about building TP. I didn't even realize this thread existed and was doing my own testing using the same method. I just wanted to cue you guys in on faster TP building, that might hopefully encourage some to produce (bigger) samples:

Thf/Sam
Coffinmaker/IronBullet
Rajas (no Brutal)
= an roughly even 20 TP/hit.
Go shoot 5 bunnies with this and you've got an even 100tp.


Here's what I've come up with so far:
Sample size - 46 WS's
162, 127, 212, 161, 217, 152, 143, 225, 232, 112, 236, 165, 144, 157, 136, 228, 155, 233, 126, 137, 226, 117, 125, 200, 147, 225, 116, 211, 115, 121, 152, 159, 109, 146, 227, 140, 227, 226, 235, 135, 156, 161, 128, 138, 110, 211
Here's a plot chart of the data shown in pDif
I WS'ed in X's knife and an idle TP set; base dmg of WS was 69
Hope this can be contributed to the total numbers. I'd go do more testing but I've run out of time for now.


My recorded crit rate so far:
34.78%; or +10.78% @100TP, from a sample of 46

Edited, May 9th 2009 7:58am by Shamaya
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#30 May 09 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Update: (Also editing OP)

79/200 from me (39.5%)
56/150 from Wyrmnax(37.3%)
16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

151/396 total (38.1%)


Subtracting 24% base were left with 14.1% bonus crit rate at 100 TP with sample size 396. Still need more numbers to make it statistically certain, but were on our way!

Edit: Coffinmaker is a good Idea. I had just been using the 450 delay self bow, but that works a little better.

Hopefully I can get back to this in a couple weeks. Got comp exams and junk for my masters, but hope to have some more time this summer and finish this off. (Though the more help the merrier. If we can get 1k+ before i get back to it all the better xD)

Edited, May 9th 2009 4:14pm by Banalaty
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#31 May 18 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Update: (Also editing OP)
Did another 50 today bringing me to 250

94/250 from me (37.6%)
56/150 from Wyrmnax(37.3%)
16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

166/446 total (37.2%)

13.2% crit bonus so far. 446 sample size.
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#32 May 24 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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We'd also need some data on different base crit rates, so we can determine if it's a flat bonus, or based on your base. There's a big difference between a flat 12% bonus, and a 50% of your base bonus.
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#33 May 25 2009 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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That is a good point, but I do believe that all the other crit weaponskills are a +% crit. However, now that you mention it, I believe they tested crit via the same method, so they would have reached the same conclusions that we're reaching, and could have been misled if the possibility that you speak of were true, Desoo. Unfortunately I can't think of how to do a test like that. Something would need to be fought for which we did not have capped crit. Something high enough level for us to uncap crit would likely survive more than one WS hit, which could make testing very very difficult. I think it seems that there is at least a decent chance we can hope that it is a straight addition as opposed to a multiplier of your otherwise base crit rate. As physicists/scientists/philosophers say, the simplest answer is more often than not the correct one. Although SE is surely not an elegant universe.
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#34 May 25 2009 at 10:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, this would be pretty easy to test if you know someone that doesn't yet have crit merits. That way you could still use capped crit rate to determine whether the bonus is a flat +% or if it is a %.
#35 May 26 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think the difficult part would be telling when you got crits. Maybe it's easier than I imagine. I just can imagine that anything that is high enough level to where we're not already at capped crit rate with either base stats or -stats (think stumbling sandals) would quite possibly survive even more than two EV hits. It could be quite difficult if not impossible to tell how many hits crit given the net damage. For example, one hit critting at a mid-range crit-cap pDif could do possibly as much damage as 2 hits critting at a lower pDif and could also possibly do as much damage as 0 hits critting at a high pDif. Even with capped pDif, there is still pDif fluctuation. Add more hits, and it may become difficult (if not impossible?) to tell for sure in many situations just how many crits you got. At least I think this is the case; dk if I'm missing something.
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#36 May 26 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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It would be nigh impossible to do it with more than 1 hit. Even if its only 2 hits. If you get Crit+normal (lets say 3.0 crit and 2.4) the damage would look like 2 hits at 2.7. Could be 2 crits, or only one. similarly, 2.7+2.3= 2.5. 2x crits? 1x? Also works on the low end. 2.6 crit+ 1.7 normal=2.35. There are TONS of combinations of 2 hits that would put the damage in an unreadable range. As long as the low end of crits is close to the high end of normal, testing more than 1 hit is going to be impossible. If there were more equips that acted like X's that would empower crits, then you could theoretically get enough +Crit damage to widen the gap to test, but alas theres nothing.

Really, about the closest we can get to a "test" would be through testing vorpal thrust, backhand blow, vorpal scythe, dulling arrow, power slash and other 1 hit crit-able WS on tougher mobs and hope it applies to all crit WS. Thf cant do it.

But im encouraged in this end. Raging rush tests ages ago cite +10% crit increase, our test here is looking to go that way (not sure yet) and Drgs are testing drakes (REALLY small sample so far) and at 1st glance is also looking like a possible 10%. If these all turn out to be 10%, I would feel confident in testing the straight +X% or or +50% of base using other 1 hit crit WS on tougher mobs and apply it to ours.

If an OLD WS like raging rush shares the same properties as Evis (got changed WAY later to +crit) and and entirely recent new addition to the game (Drakes) all share the same pattern in +crit%, its a safe assumption that SE is very methodically making all crit WS work the same way no matter when they are implemented, and thus would all work the same way in every way. It doesnt look like they said "Well evis is to weak, so we will give it a +20% crit rate instead." If all crit WS show ~10% more over a base of 24%, there are really only 2 options.

A) a +10% flat boost.
B) a +50% from dex crit. (if merits were included, it would be +12% if it were +50%).

since all crit WS are looking to be the same bonus, we can just test 1 hit crit WS on tougher mobs to quickly determine if its flat or based on our crit rate.

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Edit: Idea
You "can" test it on tougher mobs that wont die in 1 hit, but you would need to get it nearly dead then kill with WS. ie get mob to 5% then WS or something like that. But doing that solo would be hard as you would need to get to 100TP, stop meleeing and still manage to get it to a low% health. Probably work best in a duo. Wear some -dex gear, go fight some normal colibri with a friend. get 100TP and wait for them to nearly kill. Pop in WS. reapeat. Be a pain, but something like that would be possible if we have some really industrious people wiling to do it.

Edited, May 26th 2009 12:21pm by Banalaty
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#37 May 26 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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For the record, taking into account the data provided I've done several calculations on the subject of evisceration versus dancing edge with x's knife considered and the data is pretty interesting. I've run scenarios with strong and weak gear, at high and low pDif, with solo and stacked weaponskills. This is 8 different scenarios, and the conclusions are pretty clear. When soloing weaponskill with x's knife, evisceration is the way to go. When stacking weaponskills, dancing edge generally wins due to the fact the first hit has the dex/agi mod and that crit makes up for the power lost from the rest of the weaponskill not criting.

This thread isn't intended to show math of DE vs Evis, so I'll make another in the coming week or two with numbers. I wanna do something new and get a blogger account and link to the math, that way my OP isn't 10 miles long. I'll just keep a summary as the op, and for those who wanna see the hard math they can click the link to the blog, which will make everything so much easier. It'll take me a while to post the numbers though (eight scenarios is a lot), but I'll get to it when I can.

Edited, May 26th 2009 12:45pm by Melphina
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#38 May 27 2009 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
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Meldi wrote:
Actually, this would be pretty easy to test if you know someone that doesn't yet have crit merits. That way you could still use capped crit rate to determine whether the bonus is a flat +% or if it is a %.
I don't know what I was smokin b4 now that I think of it. I actually do understand what you're saying now and it is indeed quite simple. So like if a boost was +10%, then someone without merits would get 30% crit and someone with would get 34% crit. If it was like, *150%, the person with merits (20% crit) would then get 30% crit again, while the person w/ merits would get 34% crit.

Melphina wrote:
This thread isn't intended to show math of DE vs Evis, so I'll make another in the coming week or two with numbers. I wanna do something new and get a blogger account and link to the math, that way my OP isn't 10 miles long.
You cheater =O. I was already working on something like this myself, but I have a feeling that you are going to get to it first.

Edited, May 27th 2009 2:14pm by Shamaya
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#39 May 27 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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Took me a while to nail down a second batch of tests... Been keeping track on the last few days...

103 more WSes on bastok bees

25 crits -> this is lower than my base at 24% Dex @ 98 when doing these, so i am pretty sure i am capped. And 4 crit merits.
#40 May 27 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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The only thing with this is that it will take on the order of 10000 tests to be accurate to within 1% as to what the bonus crit rate would be. 1000 tests would put it within 5% definately, but that would mean that it could be anywhere from 8-18% at this point in the testing if the 13% holds steady.
#41 May 27 2009 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Shamaya wrote:
Meldi wrote:
Actually, this would be pretty easy to test if you know someone that doesn't yet have crit merits. That way you could still use capped crit rate to determine whether the bonus is a flat +% or if it is a %.
I don't know what I was smokin b4 now that I think of it. I actually do understand what you're saying now and it is indeed quite simple. So like if a boost was +10%, then someone without merits would get 30% crit and someone with would get 34% crit. If it was like, *150%, the person with merits (20% crit) would then get 30% crit again, while the person w/ merits would get 34% crit.



Last % should be 36%.
#42 May 27 2009 at 8:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Update: (Also editing OP)
Adding new 103 from Wyrmnax

94/250 from me (37.6%)
81/253 from Wyrmnax(32.0%)
16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

191/549 total (34.8%)

10.8% crit bonus so far. 549 sample size.

Well Wyrms low set dropped it right on its face regarding 10%. 450 to go for 3% margin of error GO! Thanks again for the assistance guys.
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#43 May 28 2009 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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Sleepless night, waiting for NM windows to open, i decided to make myself useful and give you a nice number

Dex = 99 (yey for lifebelt with +1 dex augment...)
Crit merits = 4

97 more WSes on bastok bees - to complement my previous 103

41 crits


EDIT: 41 crits, NOT 71. As nice as that would be.


Edited, May 28th 2009 1:30pm by wyrmnax
#44 May 28 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Update: (Also editing OP)
Adding new 97 from Wyrmnax

94/250 from me (37.6%)
122/350 from Wyrmnax(34.9%)
16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

232/646 total (35.9%)

11.9% crit bonus so far. 646 sample size.

Edited, May 28th 2009 4:25pm by Banalaty
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#45 Jun 03 2009 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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50 more. 16 crits in total.

And that brings me to freaking 500 WSes on bees. It takes a while.

How many we need again for confirming?

EDIT: Mistake. im still on 400 -_-"


It *really* takes a while.



Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 12:12pm by wyrmnax
#46 Jun 03 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Update: (Also editing OP)
Adding new 50 from Wyrmnax

94/250 from me (37.6%)
138/400 from Wyrmnax(34.5%)
16/46 from Shamaya (34.7%)

248/696 total (35.6%)

11.6% crit bonus so far. 696 sample size.

Thanks a bajillion Wyrmnax. This would take forever if it wasnt for your help.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 4:52pm by Banalaty
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#47 Jul 07 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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Has this testing died?

I am currently finishing skilling up dagger on ninja / warrior so i can get the WS, and i plan to provide info once i have done so, but if the thread is completely dead then there is little that i could do...
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#48 Jul 07 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, unfortunately, i have deleted FFXI (and every other game) from my PC (not my POL account, just un-installed the data) in an effort to finish my masters before august graduation, so Im a bit on hold for actually doing anything in-game. I have not forgotten it, just moved it to the back burner for a while. I will return to this when my RL is fixed up all nice and shiny.

I am still watching this thread (obviously :P) and will continue to update it if data is presented, but i wont be adding any additional data myself for a while.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 2:07pm by Banalaty
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#49 Oct 20 2009 at 6:09 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry to bump this from 3 pages back, but I think this is an important project that shouldn't be given up on.

pDIF Caps Testing for 1H and 2H Weapons
Here's some recent information on cRatio-capped pDif values (normal min/max; crit min/max), done by Masamune on BG. His thread got severely overlooked. His sampling doesn't culminate into the revised charted pDif formulae we've been seeking, but it's still important. With some confidence, it appears that both the 1hander and 2hander pDif maxes have been raised, indeed with 2hander receiving a greater boost.

For this test, it means that we should keep the normal max and the crit min in mind when parsing data. It would be bad the crit %'s we derived from this thread were partially the result of confused analysis (due to thinking in terms of the old pDif values). Let's finish this testing ^^

Edited, Oct 20th 2009 12:10pm by Shamaya
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#50 May 09 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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must necrobump this as it's relevant to my interests
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#51 Jul 01 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Bump.

There is now more reason than ever to finish this up. Now that we have a crit damage boost trait, it is more important than ever to get the crit rate on Evis pinned down so we can see just how much the crit damage boost will, by extension, boost Evis. Unfortunately I now work full time and have had to cut back severely on FFXI so there is little or no time to address testing like this anymore >< However I will be happy to maintain this thread and update our results as they come in. Please assist! We need good numbers on this WS to really measure its new power accurately!

We will also need to keep up with the pdif updates Shamaya mentioned a couple posts up. If in doubt, just post the raw WS numbers and we can figure out what to do with it.
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