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Evis crit rate testingFollow

#1 Mar 16 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Changed thread name and tracking our total here for easy reference. Will be updating as we go.

As of 6/3/09:

100TP:
Sample: 248/696 crits total (35.6%)
Subtracting 24% base were left with 11.6%

200TP:
????

300TP:
????

11.6% bonus to the 1st hit after subtracting 24% base crit rate for 100TP Evis

*Sample still small so exact % is not conclusive yet. But there definitely is SOME significant crit bonus.*

Past the halfway point. still need ~300 more to get 3% margin of error to be more confident in our results. Need more samples! {Help me out!}
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Original OP:
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*This is NOT an Evis VS DE thread!*

Question came up on a Drakesbane thread about Crit rate for all the "Crit varies with TP" WSs.

Has anyone actually gone out and 1shot eviscerated bunnies to determine what if any Crit rate bonus there is at 100TP? (and 200/300 would be nice to know as well, but less important). If any previous tests exists, i would love to read them. If not, i figure its time to do one, but why waste our time if its already been done.

For the love of god, i dont want this to be another "People with Mandau/X's with Evis VS everyone else supporting DE" thread. I am only trying to find out if Crit WS have a crit rate bonus, and if it is the same bonus (or lack of) across all crit WS.

*This is NOT an Evis VS DE thread!*

Edited, Mar 16th 2009 5:24pm by Banalaty

Edited, Mar 20th 2009 2:33pm by Banalaty

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Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 4:51pm by Banalaty
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#2 Mar 16 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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I'm curious to know this as well. I believe the modification to evisceration wherein it was given the ability to critical came about back around the time the dagger damage update was introduced, I think either the same one or a few months away. I don't know of any testing to find out what kind of critical adjustments the tp tiers would give. Given the way blue mage spells work it is logical to believe that evisceration has a critical modifier bonus dependent on tp, most likely at the 100%, 200%, and 300% anchor tiers respectively. There are other weaponskills that can critical too, but they may (and probably DO) have differing critical modifiers at eact TP anchor. That means we have to do testing specifically with evisceration since it's the weaponskill in question. That leaves a test to be devised. The principals would be the following.

Hypothesis: Evisceration will modify critical hit rates according to the ratio of X + Y == critical hit %

Where X == Your base rate of criticals (IE: If base rate is 15% then X == 15%)

and Y == the TP anchor adjustment.

as an example, if your base crit rate was 12% and crits were modded by 20% at 100% tp, 40% at 200% tp, and 60% at 300% tp you would see 32% crit rate at 100%, 52% at 200%, and 72% at 300% tp.


The drawback here is that each anchor would have to be tested, because it is not guarenteed that the increase is linear. IE: If 100% TP gives 20% increase, 200% may only give 35%, and 300% may only grant 50%, an increase of 20%, then 15% for each added tier, or diminishing returns. Alternately the formula may work that at 100% you get 15% increase, at 200% you get 35% increase, and 300% you get 60% increase, or INCREASING returns. IE: 15%, 20% and 25% for each tier broken.


There is no guarentee that other critical weaponskills will work identically to ours, so we would have to find the answers for ourselves. It's an interesting concept, but I'm at a loss offhand as to a way to devise a proper test for that. The test would have to encompass the following 4 solutions

1:) Evisceration has no tp modifiers at any of the anchors but criticals naturally.
2:) Evisceration has a critical modifier that scales linearly, wherein each tier of 100%, 200%, and 300% grants an equal gain from the last.
3:) Evisceration has a critical modifier that scales upon diminishing returns, wherein the 100% anchor grants a larger increase than the 200% anchor, and the 300% anchor grants an increase equal to or less than the 200% anchor.
4:) Evisceration has a critical modifier that scales upon increasing returns, wherin the 300% anchor will grant a larger increase than the 200%, and the 200% anchor will be a larger increase than the 100% anchor.


Only one of these solutions is the correct one, but I'm not certain of a way to devise a test that will come to the proper conclusion offhand. So with that, I'll throw that on the field and let you guys respond with your thoughts on the matter.

Edited, Mar 16th 2009 7:18pm by Melphina
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#3 Mar 16 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, the test would be simple enough. Go to some bunnies with a 5tp/hit dagger and get as many 100tp Evis as you can to go 1 shot baby mobs. You would have capped natural crit rate, and after enough Evis, we could easily determine the crit rate. Repeat for 200/300 TP. Compare Evis crit rate to Base crit rate (20+4%with merits on lv 1 mobs)

That would tell us if it has a crit bonus at 100, and how it scales at 200/300, but would take quite a bit of time. After the 1/2/300 crit rates are determind, a similar test at 150 TP would tell us if it is anchored or scaling.

The test is simple, just very tedious and to do it with 100% accuracy. If you used a 5tp/hit dagger and TPed on 1 shotting lv 1 mobs, you could get 100 TP every time since triple wouldnt ***** it up. /sam reccommended for 60TP bonus to speed things along xD

However, I would be more than happy to just have the 100TP mods for now as that is the most relevant. Think i might try to do a few whenever i have some time and start recording some data.
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Edit:
Did some STP calcs and /Sam with Blau, Raja/Brutal (+21 STP) gives blau 5.9TP/hit which puts you at 100.3 TP after 17 hits. I will be using this setup to test.

Edited, Mar 16th 2009 6:46pm by Banalaty

Edit #Dos:
Realized would be different after a 60TP med. After Med, I end up with 101.3 TP. Honestly IF it is scaling TP, im going to ignore the differences between 100.3 and 101.3 TP as it would be so small it wont change the outcome to any significant degree. If its anchored it makes zero difference. All WS will be done with either 100.3 tp or 101.3 TP and used to measure 100TP Crit value.

Edited, Mar 16th 2009 6:55pm by Banalaty
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#4 Mar 16 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Before too much further discussion gets added, I would like to note that for a test of this calibur the Martial Knife would probably prove useful. It takes 100% weaponskills and makes them 200%, and 200% will be 300%. This would lessen the burden of testing that annoying 300% tp anchor tremendously.
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#5 Mar 16 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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lol wow thats something of a "Duh" moment with Martial knife. I have begun testing 100 TP. I eventually switched to getting a 450 delay self bow to build TP faster by sniping worms and bunnies for more TP instead of engage/smack 5.9tp/disengage repeat.

Just 40 WS right now so no point in posting the results yet, but were on the way to new knowledge!

(Sometimes i think it would be nice for SE to just release comprehensive game mechanics and save the forum people countless hours of testing :S)
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#6 Mar 16 2009 at 11:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Batch #1: 100 WS
I realize its a small sample size, but did batch of 100 WS today and gonna quit till tomorrow.

So far, i have 40/100 Evis crits on Wron bunnies. All WS done between 100-102 TP. I think its safe to say there is SOME bonus as 40% crit rate on 100 trials its really unlikely that i have 24% crit rate and its just that much margin of error. The question is how much. 16% bonus from this small sample, but that could still be 10, 15, or even 20. Will continue testing later and post raw data when im done if you guys want it.
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#7 Mar 17 2009 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?
#8 Mar 17 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?


your base crit rate on bunnies should be 20%, 24% with merits, more with +crit weapons.

What happens if the first hit gets a higher crit chance then subsequent hits. Its a nice thing to know, i'd be very interested in knowing ws crit rates of RR, BJ, and Db, and if all crit ws's have the same % crit chance.



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#9 Mar 17 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?


Because he is performing the test on a level 1 rabbit there is little doubt that his dex is 50+++ over the targets agility, so his crit rate will be capped. That means 20% + 4% meriits == 24%. The variance in crits would be the modifier at whatever tp anchor and scaling rate (if scaling is applicable) to your current tp level.

This is a test I'm interested in pursuing because it addresses something that has been on my mind for some time. There is a logical progression in realative power of most weaponskill types. There are a few exceptions I can think of such as sidewinder that a lower version is superior to the quested or higher level one, but many jobs use their quested weaponskill for everyday use. Asuran Fists is a prime example of this, although as I said there are other exceptions such as rampage etc etc.

Evisceration is capanble of opening and closing a darkness chain, which coupled with shark bite has been viewed for years as their purposes, and dancing edge to be the main damage on lower eva/defense targets. This trend is still true, but what if we've been underestimating evisceration for all this time? The adjustment that allowed it to crit was taken without much testing, so I never heard of what it did, many assumed it had no modifier at the time and it wasn't spoken much of since. Just playing with numbers here

with 136 dex and 46 chr, wsc of dancing edge is 48 and WSC of evisceration is 33. If you add this to blau at capped str you get base damage 91 for dancing edge and 76 for evisceration. When you multiply this by 5 swings each you get

--DE 455 (I'm ignoring fTP for simplicity here since its a small mod on first hit)
--Evisceration 380

The biggest change then is the difference a crit gives in high attack versus low attack scenarios. Conbsider pDIF at 1.2

DE -- 455 x 1.2 == 546 damage

Evis with 1 crit at 1.2 pDIF

( 76 x 4 x 1.2) + (76 x 2.2) == 532 damage

with 2 crits

(76 x 3 x 1.2 + (76 x 2 x 2.2) == 608

Evisceration needs to critical once to be 14 actual dfamage lower, twice it will be 62 actual damage higher


In a high pDIF now I'll give 1.75

DE

--455 x 1.75 == 796

Evisc with 1 crit -- (76 x 4 x 1.75) + (76 x 2.75) == 741
Evisc with 2 crits -- (76 x 3 x 1.75) + ( 76 x 2 x 2.75) = 817 damage

Here 1 crit is 55 damage less than DE and 2 crits is only 21 damage more.

NOTE: The fTP of the first hit of dancing edge means DE DOES get a stronger weighting in the above calculations than I gave results of. The above calcs are meant only to show a trend of how the weaponskills differ at varying pDIF ratios, the actual results are not to be used for specifics.

In a low pDIF scenario with a critical rate greater than 30-35% evisceration can theoretically outperform dancing edge, and when you tack on the earlier discussion of x's knife perhaps the stories of evisceration not sucking are not so unfounded after all. I want to see more testing to see what kind of mods we're looking at in crit increases, it warrants consideration at the least. The change probably wouldn't be much in overall performance, but you never know. And with x's, it would be a bigger change ^^.


Edited, Mar 17th 2009 1:38pm by Melphina
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#10 Mar 17 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not to nitpick or anything, but neglecting the fTP bonus of DE kind of skews the results, Not by much, but in your second example 2x crit on evis would be more or less equal damage with DE instead of beating it by a few.

This definately needs more investigation.
#11 Mar 17 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Not to nitpick or anything, but neglecting the fTP bonus of DE kind of skews the results, Not by much, but in your second example 2x crit on evis would be more or less equal damage with DE instead of beating it by a few.


I know, I ignored fTP for simplicty just to show the trend. In actuality in a high pDIF scenario dancing edge's fTP mod holds more weight than low pDIF. The calculation was to show that "theoretically" evisceration and dancing edge will be similar in performance with a crit mod. I edited the above post to emphasize this point. I still think the lead goes to dancing edge sans x's, but the purpose of the discussion at hand was to evaluate evisceration and it's crit mod, so I don't want to go off on a tangent and turn it into something it was not meant to be. Pdif is not usually 1.75 so the number theorycrafting was only meant to exemplify a trend rather than be used as a reference on specifics.

At any rate, I think this warrens more testing. With no madrigal my pDIF at birds with subs is 1.0-1.02 and with madrigal its in the 1.2 ish range, so it's worth noting that with my high dex build evisc may hold a place. I'm curious to continue testing.

Edited, Mar 17th 2009 1:39pm by Melphina
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#12 Mar 17 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would recommend everyone check out Treelo's thread on KI if they haven't already. His opinion is obviously biased towards Evisceration, but he does have parses to back it up. Not huge amounts of data, but enough to provide a starting point.

His basic opinion is that without X's, DE and evisceration are essentially equal. Once X's is obtained though, he thinks DE shouldn't even be used. I don't know if I completely aggree with it, but it is kind of hard to argue with parses.
#13 Mar 17 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Starting my batch of tests.

Its boooooring...

I figure if we can get data from more than 1 person we can get a better estimate faster.
#14 Mar 17 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?
your base crit rate on bunnies should be 20%, 24% with merits, more with +crit weapons.

You know what they say about assumptions.

Its trivial to measure your crit rate using a parser, so y not.
#15 Mar 17 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ineptvagrant wrote:
Its trivial to measure your crit rate using a parser, so y not.


Measuring your crit rate with a parser would require actually engaging the mobs rather than using your ranged attack, otherwise you'd be making a similar assumption about the crit rates being the same.
#16 Mar 17 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ineptvagrant wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Are you not parsing your regular atks also, so you know would know your base crit rate for your sample period?
your base crit rate on bunnies should be 20%, 24% with merits, more with +crit weapons.

You know what they say about assumptions.

Its trivial to measure your crit rate using a parser, so y not.


Because it's not an assumption, it's a mathematical fact.
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#17 Mar 17 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I manage to get in game sometime, then I'll give this a whirl and try to help the cause. I'm shocked that this test hasn't been performed previously, quite honestly. Then again, I always took it for granted that DE > Evisceration because of the old Evisceration.

Since I can't parse (PS2 go!), I'll just record my damage values and post those as results whenever I get around to it. I have 4 crit merits, so it won't introduce any oddities in the data.

Are you doing anything special, Aanalaty, or just using a dagger, getting up to 100 TP and going to town?

Edited, Mar 17th 2009 5:15pm by ChanchanXI
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#18 Mar 17 2009 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Im not doing anything particular really. Just go /sam with a bow (to TP faster) and get to 100TP sniping things then walk up to a bunny and eviscerate its face.

All my WS are 100-102 TP just to minimize any potential scaling crit rate if it exists. I also am parsing by hand. Just have Excel open and put down the damage and also mark if it was a 5tp or 1tp return (in case i decide to remove second hits later "just in case" the 1st hit gets a different rate.) The thought occured to me that it might be like damage varies with TP which changes only the FTP of 1st hit. Its kinda out there, but im just covering all my bases.

Otherwise just note your stats so you can figure out your WS mods and accurately measure which damage ranges are crit and which arent.

If you are exact in your recording method and can determine if its a crit or not with 100% certainty your welcome to assist in this project. Even if your not sure about crits etc, if you parse the WS number along with your base stats, we can figure it out for ya.

Running a parse slows down my PC a bit, so i wont be parsing my melee crit rate. If you feel the need to, by all means, but i wont be the one doing it.
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#19 Mar 18 2009 at 4:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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After 150 1 hit eviscerations at 100 - 104 tp, i got 56 crits.

Thats 56/150 = 37% crits

at 104 dex and with 4 crit merits.

This would give evisceration a 10~15% crit bonus.

Seeing Banalaty's test, i can see the idea that evisceration has a bonus to crit rates at eve 100 tp. Cumulative with Banalaty's this gives us 96/250 crits, or 38.4% crits.

Sample size is still too low to determine what the bonus is, but i think we can say that there is a bonus.
#20 Mar 20 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Did another 100, so 200 Total from me so far

79/200 from me (39.5%)
56/150 from Wyrmnax(37.3%)
135/350 total (38.6%)


From 24% base, 14.6% between us. Starting to look very much like a good 15% bonus at 100TP.

Its been a while since i took statistics, what is the margin of error for 350? and how many do we need to get 95% certainty? Forgot how to figure that. If nothing else its basically proven there IS a bonus, and very likely to be 15%, just forget how to figure HOW sure it is to be 15% based on sample size.

Thanks for the help Wyrm. Lets get this thing down pat.
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#21 Mar 20 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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350 samples gives you roughly +/- 5.2% margin of error with 95% certainty. So your testing so far shows that you can be very confident that the bonus is between roughly 10% and 20%.

Given that this is a programmed value and that the value is likely to be a 'nice' number, if you can get within a 3% margin of error then it's pretty acceptable to state that as the 'real' value, barring further testing to disprove it.

To get a 3% margin of error with a 95% confidence interval you need about 1050 samples. I'd say 1000 samples is good enough (3.08% margin of error).

#22 Mar 22 2009 at 9:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Bumping, relevant to my interests.

I would assist if I had the play time Smiley: frown

EDIT:
Dunno if this is helpful to the cause (maybe you can contact this guy and he could help, but it's definitely relevant.)

Edited, Mar 23rd 2009 1:16am by SillyXSara
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#23 Apr 10 2009 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Let's make sure I understand evisceration correctly.. Every hit in the ws has a chance to crit, right? At 100% tp it seems to have a +15% crit boost, meaning about a 39% critical rate for each hit. Right?
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#24 Apr 11 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I always took evis for granted up until my brother (Galkan 75DNC/NIN) has had generally higher returns with his unstacked(building flourish) Evis rather than his unstacked DE, Opposite to what I expected as DNC has decent CHR.

Not sure if anyone has tested evis to see if the fTP or DEX modifiers have been changed when they changed it to a crit WS, I would my self but I don't know how.


Edited, Apr 11th 2009 11:10am by Zelphan

eidt - syntax etc.

Edited, Apr 11th 2009 11:10am by Zelphan
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#25 Apr 11 2009 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Let's make sure I understand evisceration correctly.. Every hit in the ws has a chance to crit, right? At 100% tp it seems to have a +15% crit boost, meaning about a 39% critical rate for each hit. Right?


Meaning a 39% critical hit rate for at least the first hit, assuming you have capped your critical hit rate for a given mob. I would suspect that the crit bonus is the same for all hits throughout the WS, but it's an assumption that would need to be explicitly stated.

An easier way to think about it would just be to add 15% to your base crit rate (without SA/TA's influence) for a given camp and figure that to be your chance to crit per hit on the WS. Even then, this was only preliminary. I think there's still a +/- 3% on that data? Something like that. But SE likes even numbers, right? >.> So it's probably about 15%.
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#26 Apr 12 2009 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
An easier way to think about it would just be to add 15% to your base crit rate (without SA/TA's influence) for a given camp and figure that to be your chance to crit per hit on the WS.


Well, I'll be wsing in 128~ dex so I'm pretty sure I'll have a 24% base crit rate. :p (Still got a couple more upgrades to do as well..)
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