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(by request) X's/blau versus blau/sirocco comparisonFollow

#77 Feb 15 2009 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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Thorny BG wrote:
except they're assuming your tp over 100 carries toward next set of tp and you never disengage, both of which favor blau/sirocco not X's/blau.. an hour long example is pretty worthless because in the course of an hour any half decent party will have you disengaging dozens of times because you run out of mobs very frequently, each time resetting delay
#78 Feb 15 2009 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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Veggeto wrote:
Thorny BG wrote:
except they're assuming your tp over 100 carries toward next set of tp and you never disengage, both of which favor blau/sirocco not X's/blau.. an hour long example is pretty worthless because in the course of an hour any half decent party will have you disengaging dozens of times because you run out of mobs very frequently, each time resetting delay


I mentioned that earlier... both sides have problems where they'd fall behind the numbers. I usually can't land that many SA in a party because of moving monster. I miss a few TA because people move and/or my char is still blinking, and I can't line up correctly. Factors will affect both sides... I don't think the argument is that X's sucks. It's just not better. If you factor in the effort involved... some may not even wanna bother :P
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#79 Feb 15 2009 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
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Souji wrote:
Veggeto wrote:
Thorny BG wrote:
except they're assuming your tp over 100 carries toward next set of tp and you never disengage, both of which favor blau/sirocco not X's/blau.. an hour long example is pretty worthless because in the course of an hour any half decent party will have you disengaging dozens of times because you run out of mobs very frequently, each time resetting delay


I mentioned that earlier... both sides have problems where they'd fall behind the numbers. I usually can't land that many SA in a party because of moving monster. I miss a few TA because people move and/or my char is still blinking, and I can't line up correctly. Factors will affect both sides... I don't think the argument is that X's sucks. It's just not better. If you factor in the effort involved... some may not even wanna bother :P


I disagree. Smiley: motz
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#80 Feb 16 2009 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye;2515248 wrote:
Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Thief

In a perfect world, blau/sirocco will be about equal/almost equal to X's/blau in a lolibri merit party. Since we don't live in a perfect world, I'll be using X's/blau over blau/sirocco if I get myself an X's.




Thorny;2515272 wrote:
♫ In a perfect world
This could never happen
In a perfect world
You’d still be here
And it makes no sense
I could just pick up the pieces
But to you this means nothing
Nothing at all ♫

Emo lyrics aside, X's is awesome for anything higher level as well since a larger fraction of your damage is coming from your JAs compared to damage generated by weaponskills themselves. Blau/Sirocco is by no means gimp, but this math is no excuse to stop trying X's BC.


Deadgye;2515322 wrote:
Aye, nobody disagrees with that. That entire thread was just focused purely on lolibri. I'm pretty sure a lot of people were getting the wrong impression and thinking that X's was not worth trying to get.

And if we follow the math I did, there's no excuse to even be found. (Unless I did something wrong, lol)




Raen Ryong;2515352 wrote:
Not my fault you get hit by Pecking Flurries under the effect of Berserk after a critical hit :(

But on the general note, I've always wondered whether X/Blau would actually outdo Blau/Sirocco in a "speedburn" situation, though in more "endgame" fights I don't think there would be any contest.

An interesting note is that certain weaponskills are amplified by X's more than others, notably Mandalic Stab...
#81 Feb 16 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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This is why i personally prefer to work in % increases than Xdamage/hour increases. The results are more or less the same but doesnt give the wiggle room for people to attack the numbers because its "unrealistic" for a party to function that way. Or otherwise try to poke holes in it because they arent "real" numbers you would expect to see. (although the results are the same as working with %)

So in another light (and i realize this is treading on dedhorse teritory and is a slightly simplified version in some ways. But primarily aimed at people that attack the Xdamage per hour needlessly)
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TP
Blau/Sirocco is 4.7TP for 131.2 delay (9.4 for 262.4)
X's/Blau is 4.9tp for 151.6 delay(9.8 for 303.2)
*with Suppa/Rajas/Brutal


B/S=2.15tp/sec
X/B=1.94tp/sec

Blau/Sirocco gains TP 11% faster than X's/Blau. If you WS exactly at 100tp, 110tp, 200tp, or 270tp it doesnt matter. You will get to that TP value on average 11% faster. So regardless of your personal playstyle, you will still get to WS 11% more often.

There is no question of "well wasted TP isnt accounted for" etc because the combo itself gains TP ~11% faster. Therefore over ANY stretch of time, you will ultimately gain 11% more TP for you to use however you want. So long as you use the same playstyle regarding TP with either combo Sirocco will WS 11% more over time. Unless you intentionally hold TP with Sirocco and let loose with X's which would be an unfair comparison anyway.
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Similarly DPS can be done the same way.(no Fstr included)

B/S is d33+d26 with 262.4 delay puts the combo at 13.5dps
X/B is 35+33 with 303.2 delay puts the combo at 13.28
Puts sirocco at a somewhat minor ~1.6% increase in actual DoT.

However once you toss in any +Fstr, ANY wind damage (even the 0-3 on colibri) etc will widen this gap very quickly.
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Crits (giving a VERY generous 20% rate and a genrous 1.0 pdif for X's)
would make X's crits be 2.2x normal melee, while B/S is onle 2.0.

Crits in general (with 20% rate) would raise up the DPS from the current numbers with an extra 22% and 20% respectively.

B/S=16.2 now
X/B=16.2 now.
0% increase over the other

For comparison sake, heres the same calc with a 1.5 pdif and 12% crit rate (more realistic. Standard brd party). X Crits would be 1.83x normal damage and B/S 1.66x normal melee damage. Crits averaged over a 12% proc with the lower increases gives you only 7.9% for B/S total DPS bonus, X's/B gets 9.9% bonus.

B/S=14.57
X/B=14.59
Now a 1.36% lead for X's.

So after crits are accounted for for TPing, the DPS is very close, but this is still without any say from Fstr or wind damage.
I would be completely shocked if Fstr and wind damage cant up your DPS by 1.3% in siroccos favor. Consider that a blau/sir (D33+26) at 1.5 Pdif and piercing bonus is about 110 damage cmobined. If sirocco needs only proc for an avg of 1.4 damage to make up the DPS difference for X's. Add Fstr, lower Pdif, less resistant mobs, non piercing mobs X's will fall behind very quickly.
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WS damage (per WS)
X's needs to make up 11% more WS damage from blau sirocco. All its got is higher base damage on WS and SA/TA crit bonus to work with.

Using Melph's WS numbers
Quote:

33 + 44 + 5 == 82 base damage for 5 main hits, and 26 + 44 + 5 == 75 damage for the offhand hit of blau/sirocco. Thus (82 x 5) + 75 == 485 base damage. Realistically every dancing edge should average much closer to 500 base damage when you consider multi procs, but for this discussion I'll give a low number to further prove the discussion at hand. This accounts for anyone with a weaker weaponskill set, because it should never go much lower than 450 base damage (accuracy is unimportant here due to associativity of what is being compared).


Xs/B will get +12 base damage over B/S.

B/S=450
X/B=462
2.6% increase for Xs on WS damage assuming a very poor WS set which is in X's favor. But a far cry from countering the 11% increased WS rate for Blau/Sirocco.
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SATA
Xs gets +1 base damage and 10% bonus over blau. For my SA/TA sets (mithra with 80+47 dex, 76+38*1.15 from AF) with blau base damage and capped Fstr gives me 170 base D for SA. X's would get +1 for weapon D and +1 for higher Fstr cap.

TA for me is 164 and a variable amount of Fstr as the heca is missing. Basically almost identical to my 170 for SA, but X;s wont hit capped Fstr. So using 170 vs 171.

SA=170 vs 172+10%=189=11% increase.
TA=170 vs 171+10%=188=10.5% increase.

About as expected SA/TA get a smidge over 10% bonus due to base damage and potentially making use of higher Fstr cap.
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DoT: is virutally equal (in scenario favoring X's by ignoring Fstr and Wind damage)
SA/TA: gains ~10.5-11% bonus for X's
WS damage: X's 2.6%
TP gain: ~11% in Sirocco's favor.

Apply these to your personal SATA/DOT/WS damage % split. A fairly general split is 40% WS, 20% SATA, 40% DoT.

DOT: X's is AT BEST equal in DoT to B/S in a scenario favoring X's. but once wind damage, Fstr are tallied, It would get the edge easily there.

WS:Blau/Sirocco stomps all over it with 11% higher TP gain rate and looms over the 2.6% more WS damage on individual WS(again favoring X's).

SATA: the saving grace of X's. a solid 10-11% bonus here. But it makes up the smallest section of our total damage and thus is overshadowed by the WS gain by itself, and likely moreso once DOT is considered more realistically favoring Sirocco. And final nail in the coffin is the ability to miss SA/TA in a merit party despite our best efforts. We WILL miss SA/TA on occasion which shoots down X's biggest gain.

Oh and of course Haste helps to kill X's more. It increases DoT and TP gain exponentially while SA/TA are stuck on their timers. Haste favors siroccos strong points and leans damage away from static timed bonuses like SATA/Jumps/Meditate etc. Unless you TP in a Dex build (more crits), terrible Pdif(making crits more powerful), zero haste (favoring SA/TA damage over DPS+WS)and only WS with SATASB once a minute (nulifying TP gain bonus and increasing X's bonus to include WS) Then X's can handily win. But, then your doing it VERY wrong. However, aside from the dex gear, that sounds more like an HNM strat. And has already been said, X's excels at tough mobs.
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The end

The trouble is no matter how you spin it, only in the MOST IDEAL circumstances favoring X's (which include sucking with terrible WS gear, low haste TP builds, Not splitting SA/TA/WS, sitting on TP etc) X's can MATCH sirocco.

No one is saying X's is a bad dagger, but the speed of blau/sirocco wins again. It rivals the DPS of any combo we know of and once Fstr and wind damage are in it stomps all over any competing combo DPS. The TP gain is just off the charts and has been the deciding factor in EVERY Blau/Sirocco VS XX/XX combo we have ever run across.

Sure you can argue about how you personally disengage after every mob, Stack SASB and use Evisceration with X's, but your still doingitwrong. Disengaging constantly slows down exp. Using worse WS and stacking unnecisarily still gimps you and your party. Gimping down a playstyle to cater to X's is still worse than maxing damage on Blau/sirocco. Over time, Blau/Sirocco is the highest DoT combo sans relic we have. Period. (once accounting for Wind and Fstr). It gains TP faster than ANY respectable combo. Add those together and Daggers like Pharpe/X's/Azoth just lose out on every front. Better DoT and VERY high TP gain just kills everything.

There is no arguing that. Arguing that we "waste" tp doesnt matter because if you waste tp you waste it on X's/Azoth/Pharpe too. But you still gain it faster with Sirocco. If you avg WS at 110 TP instead of 100 fine. In the time it takes you to gain 1100 TP for 10 WS, Sirocco just did it 11% faster. You wanna save 200TP? OK sirocco will STILL get to 200 faster than anything. TP gain scales no matter how wasteful and inefficient you are. Ignoring the TP gain only says that you hold TP using sirocco and dont hold it using other combos which is retarded.

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 5:44pm by Banalaty
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#82 Feb 16 2009 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you Banalaty. That confirms what I thought earlier. If you want to throw the "wasted tp card" it goes both ways, so I was right. If Blau/sirocco wastes tp then x's/blau will waste the same percentage of it, but because blau/sirocco gets it faster the wasteful tp is irrelevant. I'm not good at examples like you guys are but would the example that with 11% faster tp gain then be accurate to say that in the time blau/sirocco gets 11,000 tp x's/blau will get 10,000. So if you weaponskill at 200% every time then blau/sirocco still gets 11% more ws/hr? Instead of 110 versus 100 weaponskills then do 55 and 50?
#83 Feb 16 2009 at 3:46 PM Rating: Default
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From now on I'm just throwing all DoT calculations out the window. Math can be used to prove which SA gearset is better than the other, but I still think it can't be used to tell us what setup gives the better DoT. Especially when you try to factor in things like crit rate, solo SA usage, solo TA usage, WS usage, SAWS usage, TAWS usage, etc. Even percentages can go astray with DoT, the more you fight with tp>100 the more X/blau pulls ahead of Blau/Sirocco because the 7damage 16 attack 5 acc loss hurts blau/sirocco more than X/blau and that's just an example of something you can't factor in.
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#84 Feb 16 2009 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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So what would you suggest we do? Just ignore that whole section of our damage when comparing? X's has more SA/TA/WS spikes and we cant figure DoT so we just ignore it and declare X's the winner hands down?

The thing is the averages DO come out over time, just like TP. Sure we can quible about how much tp we sit on due to lazyness, negligence, avoiding overkill etc, but that doesnt change the fact that sirocco gains TP faster and even with all those factors you will WS more frequently with sirocco than with any slower combo.

Quantifying the EXACT amount may change based on your attentiveness etc, but the overall trend is that Sirocco will gain TP faster and if you have more TP, you will use more TP.

By the same token DoT fits the same way. Once you establish a baseline for a comparison and note how factors affect it up or down, you can make intelligent decisions about when to use what. For example, things that benefit X's:

*Low pdif (makes crits a larger % of your damage)
*high crit rate....duh
*less haste (more focus on SA+TA and haste helps B/S more in TP)
*Stacked SB and MStab get a better bonus than DE with X's

So knowing that both combos are at least in the same ball park, you can look at your situation.

Example, Fighting genbu and your lolThf so you dont get a brd. You wear more acc/atk gear less haste gear, and eat meat. You have low Pdif, low haste and the only WS your gonna use is SB or mandalic stab and SA+TA will be a HUGE portion of your damage.

I wonder whats better....

Alternatively your Meriting in a Brd/Cor party getting Drk buffed Choas, Double March, Haste, and Wars roll eating kabobs with homam induced haste build. Birds getting DiaII-ed and angoned out the wazoo. Crits are less helpful at high pdif, haste lowers the % of damage SA/TA will be, DE will be the WS of choice, you are likely to miss many of your SA/TA, TP gain will be off the charts, etc

I wonder which combos strength this plays to......

The fact is that the more buffed you are and the weaker your enemies are, the stronger blau/sirocco is compared to ANY combo. As you become relatively weaker to your foe through mob stats going up, your buffs going down, your gear being sub par etc the better other daggers catch up. Azoth excels at low acc situations. Pharpe and to a lesser degree azoth and X's base damage helps on tougher mobs. X's crit bonus helps when SA/TA/SB/Man stab make up the majority of your damage. This only happens when pdif is very low like HNMs where DE falls behind the 1 hit WS. At the same time crits become more valuable making X's king of the HNM scene.

But theres no reason to dismiss things like DPS and TP gain on merit level and below as those situations cater to Blau/Sirocco's greatest strength. X's is a great dagger, but its not the BEST for the average decent merit party.
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Edit the original poitn i forgot about:

Quote:
Even percentages can go astray with DoT, the more you fight with tp>100 the more X/blau pulls ahead of Blau/Sirocco because the 7damage 16 attack 5 acc loss hurts blau/sirocco more than X/blau and that's just an example of something you can't factor in.


The trouble with that is the right answer isnt changing daggers to accomodate for your sitting on TP, the solution is to up your game not get a dagger that supports a lower level of play. Strive to use TP more efficiently, not get a dagger that hurts less when wasting TP. Or as I previously said:

Quote:
Gimping down a playstyle to cater to X's is still worse than maxing damage on Blau/sirocco.


We are talking about ways to maximize Thf damage potential. If we want to max damage (in a merit party) Blau/sirocco will give us the highest potential damage. It is then our job as players to meet that potential. Id rather work at upping my game to match siroccos potential than dumb down my gear to accomodate for more lazy fighting.

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 7:59pm by Banalaty
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#85 Feb 16 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Thorny;2516695 wrote:
The argument has nothing to do with deliberately saving 200 tp, deliberately disengaging after mobs, etc.. it's that you end up with more tp over 100 with blau/sirocco than x's/blau and that you WILL be forced to disengage quite frequently while waiting for mobs unless your party is so bad it can't even kill as fast as mob repops. During this time, you get no melee damage but your timers still cool down(and a good thief will still use them when they're up and line up before engaging the next mob, adding a bit more delay). That said, in a hypothetical exp party slow enough to have continuous pulls where you don't ever disengage, blau/sirocco is slightly better. In any higher level mob situation or a real party that runs out of mobs, takes breaks, etc, X's/Blau will win.


#86 Feb 16 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you want to post in this thread fine, but not this middle man BS. If you want to engage in discussion join the conversation instead of providing commentary as the peanut gallery on another site.

That said, If your killing faster than repops, you should be plenty strong enough to kill wivres and crap without loosing chain if your all that **** leet. However even if you dont that means your party has a high level of haste/atk buffs. That means that your DoT from daggers is going to be VERY high and skew the ENTIRE parse towards your melee and WS numbers.

SA/TA are still once a minute and get less relative bonus from atk buffs and haste does zip for them. Thus higher haste/atk setups (brds/cors/diaII/Angon blah blah) all increase the % of damage done by DoT. Your example is a catch 22.

If your party is clearing mobs you get a little free time to let timers cool, thus letting you get a greater ratio (though small in the grand scheme of overall damage) of SA/TA than you would if you were constantly meleeing.

HOWEVER, to clear all mobs and have significant wait time between mobs means you are beating the bejesus outta them with high levells of haste/pdif so your melee DPS will loom over your SA/TA damage like a mountain. The more buffed you are, the more of your total damage comes from melee DoT. The more haste you have, the more TP you get. Since SA/TA are just big fat criticals on timers, adding atk does less.

1.0 pdif with 100 base damage SA adds another 1.0 so 100damage*2.0=200
2.0 pdif with 100 base damage SA adds another 1.0 so 100damage*3.0=300.

But melee DoT raised from 1.0 to 2.0 base pdif DOUBLES your DOT while as you can see for SA/TA it only getts a 50% increase. Add the fact that haste means you squeeze more normal swings, thus more DoT/TP and WS inbetween those static timers.

Super buff parties makes your SA/TA the smallest part of your overall damage. Taking buff parties and trying to twist it into aiding X's just doesnt work. X's excels when you are relatively weaker than your opponent due to the way crits function.
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Quote:
it's that you end up with more tp over 100 with blau/sirocco than x's/blau


hmm

Quote:
The argument has nothing to do with deliberately saving 200 tp, deliberately disengaging after mobs, etc..


So how exactly is it that you sit on more TP with Blau/sirocco than X's blau unless you ARE holding more TP. The speed you gain TP should have EXTREMELY minimal impact on how much over 100 you go. Your statement makes no logical sense. The only way you will have more TP with sirocco is if you

A: hold TP to stack SATA with WS. (Thus making TP gain speed irrelevant as you are going to easily have 100+TP within a minute) Yourdoingitwrong.

If you are doing it every 25-30 sec aternating SAWS and TAWS (depending on SATA merits) then the increased TP gain from sirocco is a boon, not disadvantage as it helps you reach that goal more easily. But that doesnt change the fact that Splitting SA/TA/WS is more efficient unless TP and SA happen to line up. In that case increased TP gain still an advantage and you would be just as likely to "waste" it on either setup.

B: You are intentionally holding TP. Again playing poorly to improve X's standing is retarded.

C: Your holding TP to SC. For merit parties still wrong answer.

The only reason you would hold TP more on sirocco is if you are waiting to use TP for something whether that be JA timers, Peoples TP, or something else so that after reaching a certain level of TP speed, excess becomes pointless. But as soon as you start to unstack and not SC (ie the way burns are better played) then holding TP has no place aside from overkilling a mob which both daggers run into. There is no argument as to why sirocco would be more likely to overkill than X's. In fact the slightly stronger damage WS provided by X's makes X's MORE likely to overkill.
___________________________

Now please either join the thread or keep your incorrect commentery to yourself. Your points have little force behind them other than "you said so." It doesnt fly in an honest attempt to discern what combinations of 1s and 0s provide bigger numbers in a game created, and run, on a computer with very specific formula that determine exactly how every point of damage is calculated. Peoples belief in an item, but not supported by anything other than sentimental attachment of "value" to something rare like X's, does nothing to make it hurt merit mobs better.

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 9:35pm by Banalaty
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#87 Feb 16 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
If you want to post in this thread fine, but not this middle man BS. If you want to engage in discussion join the conversation instead of providing commentary as the peanut gallery on another site.


It's an interesting read for me. If you don't like the way I post, then simply ignore than and don't reply. I don't force you to respond.
#88 Feb 17 2009 at 3:34 AM Rating: Good
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I think people are getting a little carried away lol, just because blau/sirocco wins on merit mobs or below doesn't mean x's is useless...

And while I do agree that the damage formulas are known and you can approximate anything with them, there are variables that you can't account for, so any attempts to calculate which is "best" are, at most, an estimate.

Also, pardon my possible newbitry, and I don't mean to attack the OP, just point out something that bothered me:

OP wrote:
but for this discussion I'll give a low number to further prove the discussion at hand


Isn't lowballing the WS damage working in favor of Blau/Sirocco, since X's depends more on the WS damage than blau/sirocco?

And why only 25% haste? A homam thf with swift belt, w turban, and homam hands/legs/feet (if they're lucky, body! but no haste there) is sitting on 18%, 33% with spell, and that's assuming no brd. Even with 0 homam, dusk hands+feet+w turban+swift is still 14%, 29% with spell. Wouldn't that help blau/sirocco more?

And how would blau/sirocco fair against x's/blau on say, a kited kirin, or dark ixion, or JoL, or Nidhogg, or Odin? etc.

It's not super important to me one way or another since I'm not even thf, but this interests me since I do static this with some friends to get them x's and would love not to have to >.> I just find it hard to believe that it is as bad as people in this thread are making it sound.
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#89 Feb 17 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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It isn't bad at all. Especially on several of the events you mentioned:
Kited mobs or things like Kirin, though, personally, I'd think it's better to just go /WAR or /DRK, then the combo is moot. You'd wear X's because the WS damage will be higher with SA or TA.

Drexis wrote:
Isn't lowballing the WS damage working in favor of Blau/Sirocco, since X's depends more on the WS damage than blau/sirocco?

No, because the Blau/Skukri shines mostly in TP gain, whereas X's shines in higher base damage and crit bonuses. It depends on playstyle, but I separate my WS from SATA and use DE. That makes the crit bonus useless. 5 of the 6 hits will only be from mainhand, so it comes down to X's having +1 base damage and +1 fSTR cap on WS vs Blau. Since blau makes more tp, changes in WS damage affect it's output more than X's in the fight, if you play like me.

Like others said, if you stack most of WS, don't use DE but EV or Mandalic Stab or something of the sort, and have a great party where you can land every SA and TA(I haven't had one yet) then X's can definitely take the lead. For me anyway, I doubt that type of circumstances will be readily available anytime soon.
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#90 Feb 17 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

OP wrote:
but for this discussion I'll give a low number to further prove the discussion at hand


Isn't lowballing the WS damage working in favor of Blau/Sirocco, since X's depends more on the WS damage than blau/sirocco?




Lowballing the WS damage in merit is favoring the x's. Remember, it was the sheer volume of weaponskills that favored the blau/sirocco. If you made each dancing edge stronger, it thus makes blau/sirocco stronger. As a hypothetical example, if each dancing edge averaged to 4,000 damage and I had the same ratio of them versus 500 damage with the same ratio, giving blau/sirocco 9-10 more 4000 damage shots versus 9-10 more 500 damage weaponskills makes this trend easy to see why increasing weaponskill damage favors the blau/sirocco.

I have a very powerful DE set, and like Souji above me I usually solo DE if timers are too far away. Remember, if I weaponskill at 150% tp because I waited 10 seconds for a timer, I wasted half of a dancing edge (which is considerably more potent than the difference of stacking would have given me). Furthermore, the blau dolch becomes sh*t after 100% tp, so with no latent accuracy/attack and base damage 26 holding tp for that long will be bad in the long run. Consider that I have an extremely powerful DE set and you see why I use my tp quickly. I went to great lengths to make sure my solo SA and solo TA sets are as powerful as they can be to accomodate this playstyle. My sa set has + 55 dex, my ta set has + 47 agility and adds my artifact hands +1, each have a higher attack than normal melee. Denali jacket in TA, my signed dragon harness +1 in SA, charger mantle, breeze rings, scouter's rope, agile gorget, genin/drone earring.. these are examples of a few things I carry that have no purpose other than to enhance my solo abilities, and it matters. By maximizing my solo criticals and not wasting tp my playstyle favors blau/sirocco in a huge way, as Banalaty said "up your game rather than gear to accomodate a lazy playstyle". I'm extremely aggressive at merit level and below, and it doesn't go unnoticed when others see the numbers I put out.


Quote:
And why only 25% haste? A homam thf with swift belt, w turban, and homam hands/legs/feet (if they're lucky, body! but no haste there) is sitting on 18%, 33% with spell, and that's assuming no brd. Even with 0 homam, dusk hands+feet+w turban+swift is still 14%, 29% with spell. Wouldn't that help blau/sirocco more?


I used only 25% because it exemplified the trend better. As you saw, the more haste you get the more powerful the blau/sirocco combo became. If you take a realistic scenario such as yours and add 33%++ haste, or even nearing 50% with march and magic haste, you will see the trend quantify further in favor of the blau/sirocco. The more haste you add, the more blau/sirocco leads, and because in my OP 25% was more than it took to put blau/sirocco ahead giving added gains would only widen the gap.

Quote:
I think people are getting a little carried away lol, just because blau/sirocco wins on merit mobs or below doesn't mean x's is useless...


Where in my posts did I EVER say X's is USELESS? I have noted more than once that if you are fighting gods the x's will outperform the sirocco. On Gods if you sub /war you have no offhand, and as /nin you won't have berserk, either way it's a no brainer that x's will win here. Since shark bite and mandalic stab focus their greatest might into the first hit critical and melee DoT becomes mostly irrelevant and evisceration can crit naturally. X's is clearly the dagger for Gods. I also mentioned the kited scenario of kirin too, IE when I said if you deploy the SA and TA ONRY strategy. In truth you will still weaponskill by doing this, but it won't be dancing edge so again.... duh. X's ftw.

At no point in time would I ever discredit X's on stronger targets, I don't think anybody can. My op comparison was aimed towards targets closer to my level, and in the case of merit and below, blau/sirocco is better. This is the whole "sh*t is situational" line again, it's been played to death but it's still true. If you want to wear x's/blau fulltime everywhere you go that's fine, but it's not the optimal choice in ALL scenarios, just like blau/sirocco is not the optimal choice in ALL scenarios. My OP was aimed to show the difference and show that blau/sirocco CAN outperform x's/blau sometimes, when others would have said it could never win no matter what. It's up to each individual thief to use their brain and take the information and go from there. You don't have to accept it, but it doesn't make the numbers any less true.

The reason I said x's isn't worth my time to get is because I retired myself from gods. If I was doing gods then yes, of course I'd want to try and get x's (and I would). I got everything there is to get in sea, sky, and HNM. There are no events left that even HAVE gear for me that aren't tp burn. I can get my N legs in einherjar (I gave up kings, so thats where it'll be). Skadi is salvage + assault, so /nin with blau/TK + relic hands and blau/sirocco respectively (or blau/M kris if you want the mob to have tp, like azure ailments/imperial agent rescue or for stuff like blitzkrieg where cyclone is actually useful O.o) . My homam feet I have a close friend in a shell who will just sell them to me, so that's just patience. Other than that I have it all. I only have one job at 75, and that's my thief, and I don't want to level another. I hate level grinding and I'd rather just craft and play as I do. I work fulltime now and my playtime is more limited than it used to be. Because of that I have no need for x's. If I did, I'd try and get one.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 11:39am by Melphina
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#91 Feb 17 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So what would you suggest we do? Just ignore that whole section of our damage when comparing? X's has more SA/TA/WS spikes and we cant figure DoT so we just ignore it and declare X's the winner hands down?


More like ignore everything and not declare a winner at all since doing calculations based on assumptions(play style, maximum realistic performance, etc) is silly. Sure if we use pure math then blau/sirocco has the highest potential on lolibri, but it is theoretically impossible to hit that potential. It's not a matter of bettering yourself to meet that potential, it's a matter of factoring in human error and the other members of your party; something that math just can't do. There's never been a way to determine a winner in a DoT race when you had to factor in other things besides pure DoT. If you're comparing DoT to DoT you're fine, if you're comparing SA to SA you're fine, it's when you try to combine comparing DOT+SA+WS to DOT+SA+WS then everything becomes screwy.
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#92 Feb 18 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I think Deadguy is pretty spot-on to be defaulted. Math on paper only takes you so far...... There's no such thing as mathematics without mathematical error.
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#93 Feb 18 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Here's my objection:

If you are going to take the position of "math can't account for human error," then you'd better not point at math to try to win future points.

It's kind of disingenuous to loyally rely on math right up until the point that it says something that you don't like.
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#94 Feb 18 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Shamanfoxl wrote:
I think Deadguy is pretty spot-on to be defaulted. Math on paper only takes you so far...... There's no such thing as mathematics without mathematical error.


I'd argue that. Pure mathematics actually has no error - it's only once you introduce data that error has to be accounted for, since now you're taking sets of values over isolated ones. As such, mathematics should be (and are) more accurate than a parser ever will. Especially since the math is what's running the game, not the parser.

I will however concede that while the formulas for isolated comparisons (WS v WS, DoT v DoT, SA v SA, etc) are very well known, meshing all of them to compare "Total setup 1 v Total setup 2" becomes very difficult. Assumptions are required that may or may not be true or relevant; it's hard to figure those assumptions out, too.

Do we assume all WSs are unstacked? Some are bound to not be. Do we do the opposite? Well, then you're "doing it wrong". Do we assume a 50% land rate on SA/TA - is that logical? Do we take our normally parsed damage to determine are ratios of damage and then use that as a divider to determine one setup verse another - what if that other setup changes those dividers (as I'm sure X's will)?

Granted, some of those probably sound silly, but there is a lot of uncharted ground when it comes to comparing one setup verse another and trying to simulate a real environment. I don't see anything wrong with trying to compare two setups on paper - we've always done it before, and it's usually very accurate. The only reason the comparison becomes messy is because it seems that people who aren't happy with the paper results want to play the "real environment" card, which does muck everything up.

Quite honestly, I see that as a very cheesy way to try to bolster an argument when the standards of determining "optimal performance" on paper were already well accepted.
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#95 Feb 18 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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redvenomweb wrote:
Here's my objection:

If you are going to take the position of "math can't account for human error," then you'd better not point at math to try to win future points.

It's kind of disingenuous to loyally rely on math right up until the point that it says something that you don't like.


As chanchan has said above me, and I have said before, I try not to do math like this because it doesn't work. When I use math to compare X's knife to Blau dolch on SA damage, it works. When I use math to compare X's knife to Blau dolch on TA damage, it works. When Banalaty uses math to compare the TP gain of X's to Blau it works. When I did the math to find out how much faster blau/sirocco /nin gains tp than blau /war, it worked.

Those are all singular comparisons. They are all perfectly acceptable. It's when you start to compare two or more things at once by attempting to stick them into a realistic example of overall DoT that things get screwy. I apparently forgot this when I attempted to do the math at the top of this page. I knew there was a reason I was avoiding this thread for a while, but I guess I eventually forgot what it was.

What we can do is the math to see how much X's outdamages Blau on SA in multiple conditions, the same for TA, the same for DoT%, the same for TP gain%, the same for SAWS, the same for TAWS, the same for soloWS, multiple conditions for everything and we can see what does better in what. What we cannot do is try to combine all these situations hypothetically to determine who the overall winner is. Something like that would require a lot of work, not something easily done like when I tested if homam corazza was actually broken.
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#96 Feb 19 2009 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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What about Mandau/X's?

Remember that Mercy Stroke's after effect is an increased rate of critical hits. Not to mention increasing SA/TA + Mercy Stroke directly.

Edited, Feb 19th 2009 5:32am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#97 Feb 19 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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(double post)

Edited, Feb 20th 2009 1:23am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#98 Feb 19 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:

Where in my posts did I EVER say X's is USELESS?

You didn't, and I didn't mean to imply you did. I could have sworn I saw some people in here saying things like "well I'm glad I never bothered to go after it now" or whatever and was a little alarmed that they were getting the wrong idea. I looked again and now I don't see 'em, so maybe I'm thinking of another thread or something.

Anyway, nice work. I never even really noticed that the delay was higher on X's than most daggers, but like I said I'm not a thf. Unfortunately my buddy does quite a few different big baddies so I don't think he'll really be turned off :(

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#99 Feb 20 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
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TP
Blau/Sirocco is 4.7TP for 131.2 delay (9.4 for 262.4)
X's/Blau is 4.9tp for 151.6 delay(9.8 for 303.2)
*with Suppa/Rajas/Brutal


B/S=2.15tp/sec
X/B=1.94tp/sec

Blau/Sirocco gains TP 11% faster than X's/Blau. If you WS exactly at 100tp, 110tp, 200tp, or 270tp it doesnt matter. You will get to that TP value on average 11% faster. So regardless of your personal playstyle, you will still get to WS 11% more often.

There is no question of "well wasted TP isnt accounted for" etc because the combo itself gains TP ~11% faster. Therefore over ANY stretch of time, you will ultimately gain 11% more TP for you to use however you want. So long as you use the same playstyle regarding TP with either combo Sirocco will WS 11% more over time. Unless you intentionally hold TP with Sirocco and let loose with X's which would be an unfair comparison anyway.
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This is a farce, no one has been calculating the TP correctly in this thread.

I think we can all agree on 9.4 and 9.8 per round. Good.

I'd hope we can all agree if you're using DE you should add about 4 tp onto the first towards the next WS.

So after 10 rounds (assuming they all land, no extra attacks):
X/B: 98 tp
B/S: 94 tp.

Remember that 4 tp?
XB: 102 BS: 98

Lets go 1 more round:
XB: 13.8 BS: 107.4

Fact: XB takes 10 successful rounds to get 102 tp. BS takes 11 successful founds to get 108 tp. XB uses tp more effiently. (this does not mean it gains tp faster or is the better combo, but it does mean the numbers are closer than anyone here (seems) to think).
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#100 Feb 20 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok using the gear and numbers and food and haste against level 81 colibri as Mel did in her post above. I ran the numbers through my spread sheet, the numbers started off the same, I do not agree with how you are calculating the TP as already stated so that seems to be primary source of the differences, I did not look in too much detail because its late. It only takes me a few seconds to run extra combos now, I'll probably post the whole sheet on Monday, I want to add some more gear and play with it a bit first (I tend to find mistakes this way).

All these numbers assume 1.3 pDIF mod for X's crits and 8/dmg average wind for sirocco. Mandau extra effects (triple dmg, poison, crit rates) are ignored.
 
Totals:	AgHit	#Hits	#WS	AgWS	TotJA	TotMel	JAWSTot	WSTot	Total DMG 
X/Blau	107	906	100	464	59520	96942	0	46400	202862 
Blau/S	99	1066	106	450	49260	105534	0	47700	202494 
X/Sirc	100	957	106	415	55380	95700	0	43990	195070 
Man/X	118	882	98	489	61980	104076	0	47922	213978 
Man/Bl	119	978	108	535	55500	116382	0	57780	229662 

16% crits (calc./dex-agi diff)
SA/TA split
I think I just had 1 Triple Attack merit in by default.

Using better ws gear (and the right one) will probably change some of the results, don't feel like running it now.

Edited, Feb 21st 2009 1:27am by BrimstoneFox
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#101 Feb 20 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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finally got to the bottom of this thread but thx so much Melphina for some good info. Now i'm less sad about losing 1/2 of my static on getting this knife (although i;ll still try, just not as gung-ho for something that wasn't as good as being the 'no relic combo' i had hoped for)

I currently have a blau and a sirocco offhand and now im glad that im doing it right for the most part (read the part about situational use for X's... SB and stuff XD)

thanks again for all the hard work and keep it up :D
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