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(by request) X's/blau versus blau/sirocco comparisonFollow

#152 Aug 24 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, you've obviously missed the point, so I'll explain it.

You came in here, and necrobumped a 6 month old thread. Most of the information towards the end of this thread has been disseminated in other, more recent topics, and more information since then has come to light. You still made a point to a) act like tool, calling somebody out (who? we don't know) like a comic book villain, supposedly we're supposed to follow you back to your lair, where you'll deal with us properly? b) rampage around like a 3 year old without it's soother.

I brought up Shamaya in particular because he posts on every forum, and isn't biased one way or the other about spreading his findings. You take that like I am calling you a hypocrite for all your talk about experience being #1; the point of it was to show that you are not actually arguing about anything. You haven't brought up any secret 'treelo revelation', we already know, and agree with, all the **** that you posted.

What does that leave you with? Rampaging around like a toddler. What an excellent point you've made.

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#153 Aug 24 2009 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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As has been said above, all of your issues you have brought up with an OLD thread have since been revisted and expanded on in other threads. Your complaining about the inaccuracy of things that have since been improved significantly.

But heres the thing. You come here to an OLD thread. You say its all wrong and theorycrafting doesnt tell the whole story. You say X's/blau is better.

So you claim we dont know what were talking about and post lots of sh*t without anything backing it up. How are YOU backing up your claim? Your "proof" consists of self claims that "you do better with X's." How do you measure that you do better with X's? A buncha parses showing off to gimps using a less comprehensive parser. That is NOT proof. You would have mowed those people down with Blau/sir using lolDE. Beating gimps in parses has no bearing between parsing two setups.

You can dismiss theory craft all you want because you do not understand it. That doesnt make it any less true or less accurate.

This game is OLD. It has been out forever. We know the formula's the game uses to calculate nearly every variable that influences damage.

We know EXACTLY how much melee damage you will do when you swing a dagger. And guess what? When we go out and PARSE our damage, our silly theory craft numbers are entirely accurate. We can predict you will do 10 damage with a dagger. You go out and parse and you do 10 damage. And you "not agreeing" with theorycrafting on a general level is dumb. Saying 2+2 isnt 4 doesnt make it less true. It makes you ignorant or retarded.

Things we can accurately measure with "theory" to perfect accuracy. (might leave something out due pure oversight)

*Damage per hit
*Triple/Double atk bonuses
*Acc hit rate
*Crit damage (per hit)
*SA damage
*TA Damage
*DE damage
*Delay(impacts of haste/slow/base weapon delay etc)
*TP gain (per hit and over time due to acc and Delay
*DE damage (including Acc, stacked or unstacked. TA/DA procs blah blah)
*SB damage stacked in any form
*effects of mob level on any previous points.
*Stats of most common mobs.

Things we are only SLIGHTLY iffy on. (as in we have very close numbers, but not the exact formula. Again must emphazize the VERY close to reality, just not 100%)

*Crit rate: We have min and max values and how much dex caps it. We are only a little fuzzy on the exact curve between min and max, but know that the last 10 dex ramps up roughly 1% per point of dex till caps so its easy to fill in the values.
*Bonus to crit rate on evis. Testing currently narrowing it down. Looks like either 10 or 15% so far (ie were pretty close)
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We know how much damage we do in EVERY way Thf does damage with only the slightest fluff (within known min/max boundaries) involving crit rates. We know what effects every buff (haste/brd songs/cor rolls blah blah) and debuffs (dia/angon/gravity etc) have on our damage output. People think "theorycrafting" is somehow unreliable because it has the word theory in it. So does the "Theory of gravity." Its not wishy washy floofy BS because its "theory." If you dont understand that, you need to examine

Its a **** computer program. It is programmed with numbers. It is executed in rigid fashion USING numbers. Just as rigidly and without variation as a calulator. And it spits out damage (the thing we car about) using all this in NUMBER form! Fancy that.

Alla's obsession with numbers is quite warrented. We are examining a giant calulator using numbers and math to get the results we want.
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Our understanding of game mechanics has improved tremendously over the years. You know what we thought before all this math? Before parses and people like melph/shamaya/milich/every other "math guru" before or since that has come along? We based EVERYTHING on your vaunted "experience."

You know what we came up with using that method? Camping IT++ mobs because they gave more exp. Drk/Thf blowing every JA and making a huge number was the "best" DD. Mnks/Nins/Wars were supposidly terrible damage dealers. DDs wearing Str rings. People actually believing that Mnk AF hands+4 str competed with 20 atk on Ochi kote. "Drks have bad acc!", "Str is a bowl and atk fills the bowl, so you must strike a balance!", "2handers need mroe atk than 1 handers", "High atk makes your min-max damage closer together" and other backwards bullsh*t that is entirely wrong.

You can hate math. You can choose not to believe it. But it is far more accurate than any "feeling" about damage. As for your "experience" telling you different, our formula HAVE passed the experience litmus test. We can predict the damage using a gear setup in a situation (X mobs with Y buffs/Debuffs), go out for some merits and amazingly, our damage reflects our math with uncanny accuracy (assuming the crafting was done in good detail)
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Math tells us damage we can do with every individual action we take. We can tell the total damage of putting all those factors together. That is our maximum potential. The only "human" element is how far below perfection we go. Do you use WS at 100% TP or are slow and wait for 110%. Do you use SA/TA when timers up? etc. However, we can EVEN account for "wasted" JAs/TP and find out the tipping point between two setups. (IE sitting on SA/TA timers at 0:00 will hurt X's more than blau and every second wasted is easily quantifiable). In this way we can easily created a series of comparisons to reflect reality.

You come to us with parses of you beating up gimps, and say WE have nothing to back up our claims. You are sorely misguided as to the accuracy of modern theorycrafting.

Edited, Aug 24th 2009 10:04pm by Banalaty
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#154 Aug 24 2009 at 9:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Treelo my OP is over a year old and as such my current thoughts are not going to be a perfect reflection of the ones they were back then. I'm just not taking the time to edit the OP to reword it and make it more appropriate for today because

1:) People already know where I stand on the issue today
2:) I've already said how I feel about the scenario today anyway, as have others voiced their thoughts also.
3:) It's a year old ffs! I never expected this thread to be unearthed again and as such I'm not going to change everything I said over a year ago.

In the past year we've had several discussions on the topic of the two dagger combos, and we've made a progressive understanding there. You haven't been keeping track of what's been happening on alla over the last year by your own admittance (You didn't even know I had my x's which I've said in numerous threads since acquiring it, and this happened back in April already). During that time I as well as other x's knife thieves have posted various comments and thoughts and we've more or less agreed upon the verdict. This is an old discussion which has occurred many times in many threads. This was merely the start of it, it's progressed a lot since then.

So what you've done is come to alla and seek an old thread you saved the link to, revive it from the dead, and present us with a revolution that only you are capable of delivering so that we can receive it and thank the heavens that you were kind enough to deliver unto us this wondrous piece of news. (As you can see in those last lines I chose to use a tone similar to the one you've been using. It's rather rude and condescending isn't it?).

Theorycrafting or not, FFXI is a game that runs on a basis of strict formulas and as such it is incapable of deviating from this code. The formulas that run our characters are hard wired into the system and will play out in practice just as they will on paper. While it's not a PERFECT prediction it comes close enough to the truth that we can make logical and accurate predictions on what would happen if you throw ABC scenario at XYZ mob.

Your basis of x's being absolute is that we are somehow lacking in our understanding of the game mechanics of which Banalaty mentioned above me. As you've said

Quote:
Which is where my comment came from. From what little testing I've done so far, DEX plays a much more significant role in boosting Evisceration damage than I first assumed. My current assumption is that there is no cap on critical hits, as far as weaponskills are concerned anyway. This may be right, it may be wrong. Given the increased frequency of 1400+ unstacked weaponskills, it certainly seems to suggest that I am critting a lot more than usual, I will be trying a variety of food/equipment combinations over the next week or so.


Quote:
In the original calculations, I noticed a section dedicated to damage from Dancing Edge, yet I see no information pertaining to the damage caused by Evisceration. While I understand the difficulty in trying to estimate/calculate this, it will no doubt skew the results in favour of Blau/Kukri using DE. As I have mentioned already, I will be providing more information about this when it is ready, which should hopefully go some way to rectifying this. Still, your assumptions were/are based on incomplete data, and as such are not accurate. I also noticed various claims that over time, damage from DE would heavily outweigh Evisceration, this is complete and utter tripe.


I bolded two sections there because what you claim is that we are lacking in our understanding of evisceration and its critical modifier. Unfortunately this is not the case. There has been quite a bit of testing on critical weaponskills in the recent year and evisceration has been one of them. We have used a reliable testing method of checking critical hits against level 1 baby mobs in full level 75 dex gear and measured the percentages of it. Our understanding has been narrowed down to either 10 or 15% when tp is 100. And arguing about critical damage increases from higher anchor tiers of 150 or 200%+ is an automatic failure because in a tp based scenario when you go that high you've already lost potential. Blau turns to sh*t at that point and weaponskilling an average of 4 times every 500% tp will always outperform an average of 3 in the same time frame, I don't care how much bonus mods you grant any single skill. And look, I've accounted for human error by assuming tp loss of not being able to weaponskill at 100% every time, and given the results that would come from different ranges of error.

Banalaty wrote
Quote:
You know what we came up with using that method? Camping IT++ mobs because they gave more exp. Drk/Thf blowing every JA and making a huge number was the "best" DD. Mnks/Nins/Wars were supposidly terrible damage dealers. DDs wearing Str rings. People actually believing that Mnk AF hands+4 str competed with 20 atk on Ochi kote. "Drks have bad acc!", "Str is a bowl and atk fills the bowl, so you must strike a balance!", "2handers need more atk than 1 handers", "High atk makes your min-max damage closer together" and other backwards bullsh*t that is entirely wrong.


These false assumptions have been dissipated BECAUSE of our understanding of the games formulas. We ran theorycrafts just like the very one you are arguing against on paper and then went out and saw for ourselves what actually happened. Parses have then backed that data up and PROVEN what we assumed by allowing us to see that which cannot be seen during the course of live data flow. Your argument that x's knife is without a doubt superior to blau/sirocco when you get enough dex relies upon the assumption that we are wrong in our understanding of game mechanics, something that has stood the test of time. The formulas have shown accurate in countless scenarios not just for OUR job, but EVERY melee job.

In my OP I overhyped the blau/sirocco a bit too much, you ARE right in pointing out THAT much. However I was close enough to the mark that we can say with a reliable degree that the combos are very close to the same to the point you can't eyeball the change. And I still hold to the thought process I used when creating my OP.

When X's knife was introduced in 2005 it was regarded as awesome (this was before assassin and even the dagger damage update). When the dagger damage boost occurred it went up a whopping NINE base damage, and was heralded as our salvation. But this was in the 2005/2006 era when we relied upon all of the OTHER understandings of which have already been mentioned. Nobody ever questioned nor tested what ACTUALLY was happening, we just assumed. Then we started regurgitating this assumption and blindly passing it off as truth, all without testing. I remember I too simply regurgitated that line time and again. In my OP I took the time to run numbers on those assumptions and throw it into a new light, and over the past year that hypothesis has been tested and re-evaluated. These tests have come from many thieves in many scenarios and it has stood up to the parses again and again, leading us to our current understanding today. What you're really arguing against is mathematics, something that mankind has based its society upon for centuries.

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 2:29am by Melphina
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#155 Aug 24 2009 at 11:50 PM Rating: Good
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Melphina wrote:
In the past year we've had several discussions on the topic of the two dagger combos, and we've made a progressive understanding there. You haven't been keeping track of what's been happening on alla over the last year by your own admittance (You didn't even know I had my x's which I've said in numerous threads since acquiring it, and this happened back in April already). During that time I as well as other x's knife thieves have posted various comments and thoughts and we've more or less agreed upon the verdict. This is an old discussion which has occurred many times in many threads. This was merely the start of it, it's progressed a lot since then.


but..... EVICERATION!!!!!!!

OMFG 2K EVICERATION's

LOOK AT MY LARGE EPEEN!!!!!

lolDot
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#156 Aug 25 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry to keep this going. Treelo and his buddy nefarious are about as ignorant and disrespectful as they come. feeding them all ways leads to foul uninspiring discussion in which nefarious pulls out shots of him splayed out on his bed in his omgisoHOTmyspaceshots (not joking ill find the post if i can).


in before you're no better posting stuff like that.


*ANYWAY*

Talk on another site (which I wont mention the name to avoid the lolinsertsitenamehere) concerning RR vs Kings justice, criting vs non-criting WS. Brought up the idea of STR build RR vs DEX build RR. Now i know this doesn't mean it will apply to EVIS, but interesting idea no less.

Its suggested that maybe RR's crit rate is ONLY adjusted by TP, and NOT by DEX. This goes along with the idea that WS's follow different rules, and unless they say they crit, they wont. When they say they will crit its only factored on one thing, TP.

I personally have no bases for this, the only one I do is a post on a site made by someone else. No parses. No time to test (or have any idea how to test). Thought it was a very interesting concept. If anyone else has info on this or testing please share! Maybe in the EVIS crit post? (this probably belongs there to but meh..)


-Hawking



Edited, Aug 25th 2009 10:36am by bjjbluebelt

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 10:37am by bjjbluebelt
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THF WS
THF TP
NIN WS
NIN TP
SAM TP
SAM WS


#157 Aug 25 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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What you're saying bjjbluebelt is exactly what the understanding is of crit weaponskills. As it stands, critical hit rate caps at 20% unmerited, and 24% with 4/4 crit merits. When you use a critical based weaponskill the critical hit percentage adjustment is a bonus given according to the amount of tp you have when you use it. So at 100% it will be X amount, at 200% Y amount, and at 300% Z amount increase over base rates. We're not certain exactly how much it scales based on varying anchor tiers, but we have tested the 100% anchor tier pretty well. The thread this is being recorded in is here

Quote:

As of 6/3/09:

100TP:
Sample: 248/696 crits total (35.6%)
Subtracting 24% base were left with 11.6%


with a sample size of 944 weaponskills we have raised the crit rate beyond 24% by an additional 11.6%. This testing was done on level 1 baby mobs where in our dex heavy builds at lvl 75 we will have a LOT larger difference in our dex versus their agi than Treelo would between himself and any mobs worth mentioning. This is a byproduct of lvl 75 stats versus lvl 1 and even a gimp thief can test with this method with perfect accuracy. Lvl 1 mobs will have base stats similar to characters at creation, meaning 10-15 is about as high as anything can ever go. I'd be shocked if anything had more than that and 20+ is impossible since no beastmen or thief types exist at that point, just simple bees bunnies worms and etc.

Treelo says he is going to unveil his info about evisceration which will change the argument at hand and prove that with every end game piece of dex possible, plus being mithra with 5 dex merits evisceration's power skyrockets. Ignoring the fact that that means nothing for the 95% of players who either A:) Aren't mithra with 5 dex merits or B:) don't have all that rare gear, the testing has already been done.

While it's inconclusive whether evisceration gives a bonus of 10% or 15% at 100% tp, it's one or the other. So at 100% tp crit rate will be either 39% or 34%. My personal gut feeling is that the rate is a 15% bonus, but again this isn't enough to sway his argument. Evisceration is not a mystery and we know more about it than he suggests, and we can say with great certainty that his argument of super dex and thunderstorm and etc simply won't work the way he says it will.

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 11:13am by Melphina
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#158 Aug 25 2009 at 11:50 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Treelo says he is going to unveil his info about evisceration which will change the argument at hand and prove that with every end game piece of dex possible, plus being mithra with 5 dex merits evisceration's power skyrockets. Ignoring the fact that that means nothing for the 95% of players who either A:) Aren't mithra with 5 dex merits or B:) don't have all that rare gear, the testing has already been done.


Actually, that wasn't what I said at all. I made a comment about Evisceration giving suprisingly higher results than usual (at a much greater frequency) beyond a certain amount of DEX, and that I would spend some time finding out why, or if it actually makes much difference at all. It isn't relevant to 95% of thieves out there? Assuming there is a significant increase in damage, I'm fairly sure the 5% in a similar position to my own (and yourself by the sounds of it) would be interested in knowing. Maybe I'm wrong, quite frankly I couldn't give a toss, I'll find out soon enough I suppose.

I also have no issue with the testing done on Evisceration, I've read it, was interested by it, took it into consideration. My point was that in the calculations found in this thread, Evisceration damage was omitted. You explained how Dancing Edge damage would influence the outcome, I found nothing on Evisceration. Yes, there was a separate thread on EV/DE with X's, I also glanced at that. I don't believe you went back and added it to your original findings, maybe you just didn't see the point in bothering.

The testing done on Lv1 mobs may provide you with an accurate crit% increase at 100/200/300% tp, but how much is known about the subsequent 4 hits? "Oh it probably works like <insert WS here>"? Weren't you just telling me assumption is the mother of all **** ups? The information you're finding is valuable and interesting to anyone who uses the WS, I thought I'd spell that out for you before you thrust yet more words into my mouth, but how this reflects upon the other parts of the WS is still largely unknown (as far as I'm aware) and if increasing your DEX to ridiculous amounts improves on these, it's worth looking into. Again, I don't know.

After my initial WTF moment, and dealing with the resulting flurry of lolKI posts, I was more than happy to sit down and calmly discuss the issue, it seems few of you are. I was always given the impression Alla was supposed to be the sensible forum, which is why I refrained from posting here, because look what happened when I did. Call me names, make assumptions about my playing ability, laugh at KI all you want, it doesn't matter to me. As for the guy with the "in before", too late. I already said it a few posts ago. Nice of you to pay attention.
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#159 Aug 25 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Right, the one thing I was trying to point out is the overall belief that more DEX in WS sets = More cirts. Which if TP is the only modifier (concerning crit % in the WS its self), tweaking sets with a better mix of ATT/ACC/STR may be more effective then just balls out DEX. Which for us THF's may not be any better considering most everything we do is DEX mod'd.

So if this is a correct assumption concerning WS's that can crit. More DEX =/= More Crits on WS? This seems to be the current school of thought amongst most people, maybe.
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THF TP
NIN WS
NIN TP
SAM TP
SAM WS


#160 Aug 25 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I was more than happy to sit down and calmly discuss the issue


Nothing about the way you wrote your posts was anything but confrontational. You should read them again.

As for how do we know the secondary hits crit? Go to Kuftal Tunnel. Get TP on anything. Use Evisceration on a crab. It will die in two hits (they have about 500hp). It shouldn't take you more than 4 or 5 to see that you will get 3 types of damage. One, damage where just one hit crits. Two, damage where neither hit crits. Three, damage where both hits crit. Crabs should be low enough level that your cRatio will be capped, so there won't be much variation in damage. your regular hits will look like regular hits, and your crits will look like crits. If you never get the third type of damage, two crits, then congratulations! You've just proven everybody else wrong.
____________________________
Dooom wrote:
BG elitists <3 haste.

Allatards/uber casuals hate elitists.

Allatards/uber casuals hate haste, as valuing it would acknowledge that elitists are right


kerberoz wrote:
People don't hate emo kids because they're "misunderstood." People hate emo kids because they're useless.


Realix wrote:
PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM...
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