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(by request) X's/blau versus blau/sirocco comparisonFollow

#52 Feb 14 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Default
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Alright.. what did I do wrong:

Blau / Sirocco / / Bomblet
Walahra / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredor
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

352 attack
18% haste

Str 62 + 9(gear) + 5(food)
Dex 85 + 15(gear)
fstr = 3


Attack = 355 + 75(food) + 66(Minuet)
Acc = 386
Haste = 18% + 15%(Spell) + 11%(March)

Base Damage = 36/29
cratio = 1.166
min pDIF = 0.899; max pDIF = 1.399; Average = 1.149;

41 + 30 = 71/round.

1479.5~ attacks per hour + 324 + 73 = 1877~/hour

14% crit rate: pdif: 2.149; 77 + 62 = 139/round

36418 + 114594 = 151,012 / hour
* .845 = 127,605 / hour


X's / Blau / / Bomblet
Walahra / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredor
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

37 / 36
cratio = 1.166
min pDIF = 0.899; max pDIF = 1.399; Average = 1.149;

42 + 41 = 83 / round


1278 rounds / hour + 280 + 63 = 1621 rounds / hour

115702 + 37742 = 153444
*.845 = 129,660

2.199 + 2.699 ) / 2 = 2.449; 226 rounds

90 + 77 = 167 / round

(Ok.. this is by no means easy to read.. but yeah <.<;)
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#53 Feb 14 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Melphina, I do think that we need to look at Samurai Roll with X's/Blau again, just because I think with decent rolls, you can get down to an 18 hits to 100 tp, and that would actually help the X's/Blau set a little, however, They will still get significantly less WS than Blau/SK and still have less DoT.
#54 Feb 14 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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So here's the thing about EV vs. DE:

Do any of us use EV for fun? I know that every time I use it, it's to follow (or lead) Gekko or SC or another Distortion WS.

So I don't think X's EV vs. Blau DE is as much of a concern as X's EV vs. Blau EV, since I'd be using EV regardless of weapon. SC damage can be hard to quantify, but it's not insignificant.
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#55 Feb 14 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Evisceration is a difficult weaponskill to quantify because of the wording, but I have no reason to believe it is capable of breaking the critical cap hitrate of 20% (and 24% with merits). I have played with a dex build in farming and gone 3 (and RARELY 4) crits in a row, but i've also had streaks of 7-10 with no crits at all. In the end the parse dictates the true nature of a 24% crit rate over time, which was what I expected. When the sample size grew the numbers stabilized around this. However due to the fact that criticals CAN cluster together evisceration can sometimes throw out heartily fun numbers, but it's not common or stable like dancing edge is. The thing about the wsc I mentioned is then that when an evisceratiion hit DOES critical you get approximately 7-8 more base damage on that critical. But Had I used blau/sirocco and eviscerationed that critical would have happened anyway at base damage 77, so again the only difference is 7 base damage in a hit that crits because of the x's. is this going to help nullify it's gimpiness? Heck yeah, but it won't be enough to put it on par with dancing edge in the long run.

The thing about the x's bonus to criticals is that 10% of a low damage dagger just ISN'T THAT MUCH, and sneak and trick attack timers are on a limited use. Converting the formula to changes in base damage is an effective and reliable method of comparison, and when you view that you basically get one free critical for every 10 other criticals that would have happened. So for example if it takes me 3 minutes to critical 10 times at base damage 40, I get a bonus of 40 base damage every three minutes. Now if x's knife increased RATE of criticals by 10% THAT would be monstrous (almost twice that of destroyers O.O). You don't have to do anything fancy to make a critical awesome, a critical hit in and of itself is powerful no matter WHAT you have equipped. Because they happen naturally they are awesome alone.

Quote:

Melphina, I do think that we need to look at Samurai Roll with X's/Blau again, just because I think with decent rolls, you can get down to an 18 hits to 100 tp,


I will agree here that the margin can happen. But truthfully it can also swing towards the blau getting bonus rounds. The samurai roll has 11 numbers it can hit upon, (plus the occasional bust). Of course if the cor rolls a 1-5 he will double up, so realistically you have 6 numbers it will fall upon. But when you consider you can add skadi's chausses to the rajas as well as rolls 6-11 it leaves a massive disparity of what can potentially happen (and a bust leaves you with normal tp gain). Furthermore, the brutal earring has store tp + 0.1. In the rajas and skadi calculations it would not affect anything, but with rajas, skadi's, brutal, and sam roll you can a very large radius of store tp ranges to calculate. Because of this calculating Samurai roll effectively cannot be done with any degree of certainty, but it is safe to assume that it will always favor the blau/sirocco over the x's blau combo in the end.

Oh and on the note of this

Quote:
I do want to say thanks for going through all of this, Melphina. Just makes me a bit dumb for wasting my time and the time of my friends.


That's hardly a waste of time if you got the drop. X's can still be useful in shark bite, and on Gods where critical hits are worth more it has a nice situational application. Ballista adds a few things more, and its rarity makes it a trophy item that anyone who ownes one should be proud of. X's is not the optimal tp burn style dagger, but it's by no means useless and that will never make it worthless or bad. Because of just how horrible the drop rate IS (seriously soul crushing is accurate, you went over 100 runs which is 2 years) that is a sign of dedication and should be taken with pride. I have great respect for anyone who ownes one, and always will (even if it is just a lucky break 1/1, because after all I've gone through I can relate to luck (and also lack thereof))

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 7:15pm by Melphina
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#56 Feb 14 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
I will agree here that the margin can happen. But truthfully it can also swing towards the blau getting bonus rounds. The samurai roll has 11 numbers it can hit upon, (plus the occasional bust). Of course if the cor rolls a 1-5 he will double up, so realistically you have 6 numbers it will fall upon. But when you consider you can add skadi's chausses to the rajas as well as rolls 6-11 it leaves a massive disparity of what can potentially happen (and a bust leaves you with normal tp gain).

There are seven possible outcomes for Samurai Roll:

II (Lucky)
VII-XI (+5 outcomes here)
VI or Bust (not both, so only +1 outcome here)

Presuming you never Double Up on VII+, Bust is only a possibility if you Double Up on VI. So either you run the possibility of Busting, or you run the possibility of getting a VI, but you don't have the possibility of both.
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#57 Feb 14 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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Since I still don't see anything wrong, unless the lack of weapon skills can make up for the difference in favor of X's with DoT, WS damage, SA and TA damage I'm still considering X's better :x
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#58 Feb 14 2009 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote

Quote:
blau/sirocco
127,605 / hour in melee DoT

attacks per hour = 1877~/hour
accuracy == 84.5%

X's/blau

Melee DoT/hr == 129,660

attacks per hour == 1621 rounds/hr
accuracy == 84.5%



You neglected tp gain, which you were the one who taught me the importance of this first. You added actual pDIF ratios and multi round attacks, so this makes it REALLY easy.

Blau/sirocco gets 4.7 tp/hit and 9.4 tp/round while X's/blau gets 4.9 tp per hit and 9.8/round. Your accuracy is 84.5% thus

--------------
Blau/sirocco --- number of rounds x accuracy x tp/round

1877 x 0.845 x 9.4 == 14,909 tp/hr

------------------
X's/blau -- number of rounds x accuracy x tp/round

1621 x 0.845 x 9.8 == 13,423 tp/hr


a difference of 1486 tp/hr
--------------------------------

the difference in ACTUAL melee DoT was 129,660 - 127,605 == 2055 ACTUAL damage (because you added pDIF).

-------------
Summary:

If you can't create 2055 ACTUAL damage with over 12-13 weaponskills your thief sucks monkey balls >.>. (and I know your thief can put up good numbers deadgye)

If you factored wind damage on non colibri/puks

1877 x (accuracy) x 7 damage (average given for wind) == a &^%$# ton of damage.
(I left accuracy unaccounted for because different targets will change this but it's assumed over 80%)


By posting those numbers you proved my OP beyond a shadow of a doubt , because it even incorporates multi round attacks and pDIF (I do appreciate that part though, since it shows just how big the change can really be by swapping daggers)

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 8:22pm by Melphina
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#59 Feb 14 2009 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Well that's just the difference from DoT. We've yet to calculate the difference for SA, TA, and the difference in weapon skills, and factor in how many times I use shark bite at 200 tp because I wasn't paying attention. :p

I'm not including the wind damage from sirocco because I did the math on colibri, and I really don't want to pretend everything will work out exactly the same on other types of mobs.

I just have a feeling the damage difference is too close to try and calculate mathematically.

I'm personally wondering how X's compares to blau when not /nin.

Also, I'm correct in thinking that the X's special effect only affects X's knife and not the other knife it's paired with, right?
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#60 Feb 14 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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I am pretty sure it was proven long ago that x's effects both hands. Was tested by offhanding it and using SA.
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#61 Feb 14 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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X's Knife is any and all melee critical hits. Does not apply to ranged criticals that I've noticed.
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#62 Feb 14 2009 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the discussion guys, and especially thanks to Melphina for posting the numbers. I now feel a lot better about not being able to get a group to do the bcnm with. And btw deadgye, how the heck do can you say a difference in 2055 damage in DoT can be anything similar to 1700+ tp? If you waste tp with blau/sirocco to 200% would you not end up doing the same with x's/sirocco, Keeping the weaponskills gained by blau/sirocco the same?
#63 Feb 14 2009 at 11:39 PM Rating: Default
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Deadgye wrote:
I just have a feeling the damage difference is too close to try and calculate mathematically.


This.

You have a great hypothesis going here. Test it. Go parse. Save all your logs from meriting, HNMs, Salvage, Dynamis, do controlled tests in all those fields and really narrow down where each dagger shines.
#64 Feb 15 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Melphina wrote:


Quote:
Melphina, I do think that we need to look at Samurai Roll with X's/Blau again, just because I think with decent rolls, you can get down to an 18 hits to 100 tp,



I will agree here that the margin can happen. But truthfully it can also swing towards the blau getting bonus rounds. The samurai roll has 11 numbers it can hit upon, (plus the occasional bust). Of course if the cor rolls a 1-5 he will double up, so realistically you have 6 numbers it will fall upon. But when you consider you can add skadi's chausses to the rajas as well as rolls 6-11 it leaves a massive disparity of what can potentially happen (and a bust leaves you with normal tp gain). Furthermore, the brutal earring has store tp + 0.1. In the rajas and skadi calculations it would not affect anything, but with rajas, skadi's, brutal, and sam roll you can a very large radius of store tp ranges to calculate. Because of this calculating Samurai roll effectively cannot be done with any degree of certainty, but it is safe to assume that it will always favor the blau/sirocco over the x's blau combo in the end.


If your in a meripo with a Cor, there would need to be a very good reason why that Cor would do anything other than 2 out of Corsair's/Chaos/Hunters. STP roll's benefit is more for the 2H's to knock a round off getting to 100% tp, for 1H's, Rouge's roll would be more benificial, especially with X's equipped, and especially with a THF in the party.

a lucky 5 would give +18% crit rate, 11 would be +24% crits, 6,7,8,10 give 11%-14% crit rate - those numbers are kinda huge, even an unlucky 9 gives 7% crit rate, which is by no means gimp.
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#65 Feb 15 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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GeoMaximus wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
I just have a feeling the damage difference is too close to try and calculate mathematically.


This.

You have a great hypothesis going here. Test it. Go parse. Save all your logs from meriting, HNMs, Salvage, Dynamis, do controlled tests in all those fields and really narrow down where each dagger shines.


This is the opposite of a controlled test actually. The reasons for doing a controlled test is to find and quantity hidden stats or how hidden stats affect our output. For instance, when the new pDIF caps were found, they were controlled tests because we knew we were hitting fSTR cap, we knew we were also hitting ATK cap, since we were going against TW. To find WSC, we do the same with WS, but use crits to ensure the variations we have are less.

However, what you're suggesting here is to place it in a bunch of fields with unknown variables, that can change every monster based on the actions of other players, and use that as data defining which is better. That won't help matters, and it really isn't necessary. Play style WILL change the results, but we can predict how it will change based on the numbers. Numbers aren't theories. These are the formulas the game are build on, so they are true, so long as the same exact methods are used in game. That is, of course, impossible.

Things that are obvious variables In favor of X's:
Over tp, Blau/Sk does more damage in tp produced. Going over 100% before WSing lowers that.
Feather tickle, stun, sleep, time between pulls, and other things that delay WS going off, but lower timers between SA/TA.
Outside buffs: lower ATK scores and higher crit rates(COR) support X's.
As mentioned, battles where you aren't meleeing much, gain tp, run in WS, run out.

Variables that negatively impact X's:
Merit party situations in general favor Blau/Sk more(atleast the way I and the people I seem to find play)
Examples: My most recent merit party, with ls members and old friends, I had 72 attempted SA but only 40 successful. TA also showed 70 attempted and 52 successful. This is because of moving people, moving enemies, and how party members often surround the enemy instead of being on one side. I've had parties where TA didn't have much problems, but SA did, because I had majority hate as well.
ATK buffs and strong debuffs will lower the increase you get from crits, lowering the additional bonuses X's provides.
Low crit rates: My crit rate with 4 crit merited is ~7.5% once SA/TA is removed.
I'm not sure if this was calced above at that rate, but your crit rate varies on enemies, so while some it could be stronger, some it could be worse.



In the end, with the playstyle that most agree to bring out the most damage(solo ws, SA and TA, unless they happen to line up) Blau/SK produces enough tp to surpass X's.
Mistress Melphina wrote:
Summary:

If you can't create 2055 ACTUAL damage with over 12-13 weaponskills your thief sucks monkey balls >.>. (and I know your thief can put up good numbers deadgye)

My last party I averaged ~680 damage per solo WS using this setup, a BRD using 1 minuet, and Crab Sushi. No Dia was cast on enemies. I made sure to use the THF section of kparser to check only solo WS, and removed those that were too high and had to be a misparsed SA or TAWS(I only used 1 TAWS that party anyway). So 10-13 WS(lowering the lower amount by alot just to give X's that extra advantage for overtp, it won't really lower it that much) should be ~7000-9000 damage. It really isn't close enough, especially since I know I will miss a great number of SA and TA, more than I'll over tp or get feather tickled, unless I get a perfect party where everyone always sits to one side and I can line up perfectly even when blinking gear(I've missed several TA just because it took to long for my char to reappear and I couldn't see where I was).

I don't really agree with the people who say the math isn't clear enough to make a judgment. It's the same deal with people who oppose Hagun. If the difference is a clear difference like in this and Hagun's case, but your results are drastically different, it's probably because you're doing it wrong(for instance, hagun pulls further away when you WS every 100 tp, and use a 6-hit, as well as using med on the dot and having it merited. If you don't use it that way, ofcourse Onimaru can pull ahead).

Finally, as Mel pointed out, there's the difficulty in getting a weapon that will generally be outperformed in merits, may be better in other places. Unless you enjoy it, don't bother killing yourself over getting it. If you have it, it isn't a crap dagger. However, you may want to reevaluate where you use it. You can be stubborn and keep using it because of the work if you like. It won't hurt you. However, don't try to justify and say you do better damage with it when you don't.
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#66 Feb 15 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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LordTrey wrote:
I am pretty sure it was proven long ago that x's effects both hands. Was tested by offhanding it and using SA.

dawdr wrote:
X's Knife is any and all melee critical hits. Does not apply to ranged criticals that I've noticed.

Ah crap, I have to go back and bring up X/blau's dot/hour then.

K, new numbers:

Blau/Sirocco: 127,605 / hour
X's/Blau: 131,760 / hour

I'll calculate the difference in sata damage with a decent setup after I get back from a bike ride.

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 1:16pm by Deadgye
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#67 Feb 15 2009 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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Are you getting the 14% crit from something like this or from parses?
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#68 Feb 15 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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#69 Feb 15 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I see the link Veggeto. I'm not surprised they found something to criticize me on. Actually the point
Quote:

increase pdif to 2.3 if that's how x's works - 425.5 damage, an increase of 55.5
increase damage by 10% if that's how x's works - 407 damage, an increase of 37


Is true. If normal pDIF is 1.0 then 2.0 would be a normal crit and using a base damage weapon of 40

40 x 2.0 == 80
40 x 2.3 == 92
44 x 2.0 == 88

so in the case of uncapped attack yeah, there's gonna be a bit of change. I would have had to consider pDIF after all, as is the case with everything. But it still doesn't change the overall trend by THAT much. In my OP I gave X's a 20% critical rate, which it usually isn't. I also accounted for a much weaker than average weaponskill build than most people should have. Considering the numbers deadgye gave in an actual scenario the trend still favors the blau/sirocco.

Quote:

His math is nowhere near accurate using either of the examples on wiki, he confused base damage and actual damage which made all of his results drawn from it entirely worthless as they're only giving X's 1/3 to 1/2 of the benefit it actually gives the player. That a good enough explanation?


1/3 to 1/2 the benefit also isn't THAT big a change when you consider the volume of disparity in the calculated results. They knock my math because I'm posting on alla, but they obviously know nothing about me (or else they'd know I'm actually a woman, and wouldn't be addressing me as "he").

The point I wanted to make was that the belief that x's is the best dagger to pair with blau (barring relic) stems from the dagger update over 2 years ago, and I still haven't heard of any other people running actual numbers. If my math is really THAT far off and lolworthy then they're welcome to run the numbers themselves and see for themselves which combo comes out on top. I'm not out to start any cross forum wars by running my numbers, I'm just searching for the better scenarios because I love the job. I don't care about being called an allatard, nor having my math laughed at. It's still pretty close and the trend shows a significant difference in potential, enough that I'm pretty sure the verdict stands.

Again, I offer them to run the numbers themselves and give a better representation, but discrediting what I showed without knowing the first thing about me and assuming it's totally wrong because of the place it's posted on is foolish. I'm a very good thief, and I understand enough to make logical conclusions given the information at hand. If they can run math that shows contrary to my OP I'll accept that, I am human and capable of error after all. But if they tl;dr and just discard my input and throw it to the wayside without showing their own figures it doesn't help the discussion at hand, and barring some massive upset of what I calculated can be found I don't think the verdict will change at all.

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 6:52pm by Melphina
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#70 Feb 15 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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Pay no attention to Bluegartr Melphina.... they are always right until someone comes in and irrefutably proves that they are wrong....
#71 Feb 15 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
I see the link Veggeto. I'm not surprised they found something to criticize me on. Actually the point
Quote:

increase pdif to 2.3 if that's how x's works - 425.5 damage, an increase of 55.5
increase damage by 10% if that's how x's works - 407 damage, an increase of 37


Is true. If normal pDIF is 1.0 then 2.0 would be a normal crit and using a base damage weapon of 40

40 x 2.0 == 80
40 x 2.3 == 92
44 x 2.0 == 88

so in the case of uncapped attack yeah, there's gonna be a bit of change. I would have had to consider pDIF after all, as is the case with everything. But it still doesn't change the overall trend by THAT much. In my OP I gave X's a 20% critical rate, which it usually isn't. I also accounted for a much weaker than average weaponskill build than most people should have. Considering the numbers deadgye gave in an actual scenario the trend still favors the blau/sirocco.

Quote:

His math is nowhere near accurate using either of the examples on wiki, he confused base damage and actual damage which made all of his results drawn from it entirely worthless as they're only giving X's 1/3 to 1/2 of the benefit it actually gives the player. That a good enough explanation?


1/3 to 1/2 the benefit also isn't THAT big a change when you consider the volume of disparity in the calculated results. They knock my math because I'm posting on alla, but they obviously know nothing about me (or else they'd know I'm actually a woman, and wouldn't be addressing me as "he").

The point I wanted to make was that the belief that x's is the best dagger to pair with blau (barring relic) stems from the dagger update over 2 years ago, and I still haven't heard of any other people running actual numbers. If my math is really THAT far off and lolworthy then they're welcome to run the numbers themselves and see for themselves which combo comes out on top. I'm not out to start any cross forum wars by running my numbers, I'm just searching for the better scenarios because I love the job. I don't care about being called an allatard, nor having my math laughed at. It's still pretty close and the trend shows a significant difference in potential, enough that I'm pretty sure the verdict stands.

Again, I offer them to run the numbers themselves and give a better representation, but discrediting what I showed without knowing the first thing about me and assuming it's totally wrong because of the place it's posted on is foolish. I'm a very good thief, and I understand enough to make logical conclusions given the information at hand. If they can run math that shows contrary to my OP I'll accept that, I am human and capable of error after all. But if they tl;dr and just discard my input and throw it to the wayside without showing their own figures it doesn't help the discussion at hand, and barring some massive upset of what I calculated can be found I don't think the verdict will change at all.

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 6:52pm by Melphina


Thorny, BG wrote:
I already did run math that shows contrary to their OP, since their later calculations all use the given numbers from their first assumption(and you only have 1.0 PDIF on SA or TA if you somehow managed to have 0 attack.. 2 is the very least you'll ever have in any reasonable situation). Since they make such a big point of knowing who they are, if I knew they had a ****** I obviously wouldn't have bothered arguing or posting corrections, that makes them infallible anyway D;






Edited, Feb 15th 2009 7:53pm by Veggeto
#72 Feb 15 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to do an actual comparison of these dagers with live stats, similar to deadgye. But I'm going to use my actual gear and stats, so let's see just how "lol worthy" my math is.

Target mob == level 81 greater colibri

Notes: dexterity is merited 5 times, dagger skill is merited 8 times, food == coeurl subs. Crits are merited 4 times.

----------------------
TP gear setup

blau/sirocco fire bomblet
turban, love torque, brutal, suppa
antares harness, homam, toreador's, rajas
cuchulain's, swift, homam, dusk

Gear haste == 17%
Gear accuracy == 41
gear attack == 21

I will add magic haste of 15% as the only buff for simplicty
----------------------------
Calculating Hitrate

85 (base dex with 5 merits) + 22 (gear) == 107 dex

accuracy == 282 from dagger skill, 53 from dexterity, 41 from equipment. Total accuracy == 376

Hitrate on level 81 birds will be 84%
------------------------------------------
Calculating fSTR

Strength == 62 + 5 (meat) + 9 (gear) == 76 strength.
76 - 67 == 9
dSTR == 9
9 + 6 == 15
(15/2) == 7.5.
7.5/2 == 3.75.
fSTR == 3

-----------------------
Calculating pDIF

attack == 8 + 292 (dagger skill) + 36 (str) + 21 (gear) == base attack of 357. 357 x 1.2 (meat) == 428 attack.

Level 81 greater colibri defense == 322.
428/322 == 1.329
1.329 - 3.0 == 1.029 cRatio
Max pDIF == 1.234
Min pDIF == 0.734


Average pDIF == 0.984
Average Critical pDIF == 1.984
Average critical pDIF with X's knife equipped == 2.284

-------------------------------
Calculating crit rate

The proposed notion is that once dex is 40+ over the mobs agility you get 10% + 1% for each point of dex capping at 20% base crit rate. 107 - 67 == 40, thus

10% base rate of crits + 4% with crit merits == 14% crit rate
-----------------------------------------
Calculating number of swings per round

Triple attack is merited 5 times, and I have brutal thus in 100 rounds

100 x 0.05 == 5 extra attacks from brutal
95 x 0.1 x 2 ==== 19 extra attacks from triple attacks
(100 x 2) + 5 + 19 == 224 attacks per 100 rounds
2.24 attacks/round



----------------------
Part A:Blau/Sirocco calculation


Blau/sirocco delay == 328.
328 x 0.8 x 0.68 == 178.432
rounds/hr == 1210.547

1210.547 rounds/hr x 2.24 attacks/round == 2711 attacks/hr
2711/2 == 1355.5 attacks per hand per hour

Blau
------------------
0.14 x 36 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 1.984 == 11,385 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 36 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 34,687 damage in melee non crits

Sirocco
------------
0.14 x 29 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 1.984 == 9,171 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 29 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 27,942 damage in melee non crits

Total melee DoT of blau/sirocco (ignoring wind procs) 83,185

Calculating tp accrual

2711 attacks x 0.84 x 4.7 == 10,703 tp/hr
----------------------------------------

Part B: X's/blau calculation

x's/blau delay == 379
379 x 0.8 x 0.68 == 206.176
rounds per hour == 1047.648

1047.648 rounds/hr x 2.24 attacks/round == 2346 attacks/hr
2346/2 == 1173 attacks per hand per hour

X's
------------------
0.14 x 37 x 1173 x 0.84 x 2.284 == 11,657 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 37 x 1173 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 30,851 damage in melee non crits

Blau
------------------
0.14 x 36 x 1173 x 0.84 x 2.284 == 11,342 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 36 x 1173 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 30,017 damage in melee non crits

Total melee DoT of X's/blau 83,867


Calculating tp accrual

2346 attacks x 0.84 x 4.9 == 9,656 tp/hr

a difference of 682 ACTUAL melee damage at a cost of 1047 TP
---------------------------------

Unstacked ability useage

Trick attack and sneak attack base damage was ~~185-190. Since x's gets its biggest increase here I'll use 190

These abilities get 1.125 uses every minute at 1.984 averaged critical pDIF without x's and with x's 2.284 average critical pDIF

Blau/sirocco
190 x 1.125 x 1.984 x 60 == 25,444 if I apply all unstacked

X's/blau
190 x 1,125 x 2.284 x 60 == 29,292 if I apply all unstacked

This is a difference of 3848 ACTUAL damage
----------------
Stacked Ability useage

My stacked weaponskill set has 85 + 51 == 136 dex, and 46 chr. I also have capped fSTR
(136 x 0.3) + (46 x 0.4) == 59.2 wsc, floored to 59
59 x 0.83 alpha == 48.97, floored to 48 WSC

With X's knife
(( 34 + 10 + 48) x 1.1875) == 109 base damage first saws hit + 136 (dex) == 245 base damage first hit of DE

thus
245 x 2.284 x 60 == 33,574 if I apply all stacked


Blau/sirocco
((33 + 10 + 48) x 1.1875) == 108 base damage first hit + 136 == base 244 damage first hit of DE

thus
244 x 1.984 x 60 == 29,045 if I apply all stacked with DE

a difference of 4529 maximum damage, which when combined with melee DoT is a maximum difference of 5211 damage/hr

The price to pay is 1047 TP, or at minimum 9 weaponskills

The difference that I would have to make up in weaponskills would be an average of 579 damage in each weaponskill minus the difference the base damage between x's/blau and blau/sirocco. I would hope to **** my dancing edges average more than this (trust me, they do). If I gave this the full 10 weaponskill range I would need only 452 averaged actual damage. I also considered this difference with the MAXIMUM where I stacked ALL weaponskilsl with sneak attack + de, when in reality this will also not be the case.


And as a final note, this STILL does NOT consider the wind proc of sirocco, which if you take 1355 attacks/hr x 0.84 == 1138 connecting rounds of sirocco, which if you average wind damage low to only 6 damage that's

6 x 1138 == 6828 actual damage.

I just did a live calculation with all the factors involved, and the blau/sirocco still came out on top. The margin of gain was a bit smaller than I expected, but unless my figures are grossely off this is the result of it.

I will admit however that with rogue's roll the x's knife can probably win this one. I will change my stance on that in lieu of what was calculated above. In light of this if you have rogue's roll you will probably see a greater increase with x's/blau overblau/sirocco, most definately so if the target is birds where wind does not proc. However without Rogue's Roll I still stand by my OP in that blau/sirocco is suuperior to x's/blau in tp burn.

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 9:41pm by Melphina
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#73 Feb 15 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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657 posts
I just read that entire thread on BG and when it comes down to actually giving advice on anything it just seems all they can ever resort to is bashing OP or someone/something else in the thread. The first response is classic BG *******.

Yes I think there are plenty of "Allatards" but when I have any type of question or topic I think is worth trying to discuss I come here because posters like Melphina, LolGaxe, Milich to name a few, will actually give solid advice on what they truly believe is the right answers to the questions given.

Good work Melphina. We all appreciate you here.
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#74 Feb 15 2009 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,777 posts
For the record since the poster on BG didn't post his numbers in an actual pDIF live scenario, I posted an example of mine.

Thanks for the comment mikes, It's appreciated. But honestly I'd post what I do whether people agree with me or not. This is the internet, really that's all that has to be said. Where you can comment without being face to face with no real world ramifications there is bound to be negative interaction on a gaming form, as we have seen in the past many times and many places. Human nature is never inescapable, whether in game, on the board, or any other place in life, and competitiveness is a natural part of us (I won't lie, I'm competitive as **** too, it's why I keep pushing to make my thief better). I take everything said with a grain of salt. If someone can post numbers contradicting mine I'll change my stance, I care more about accuracy than winning, but in this case I honestly believe my conclusion is the correct one.

At any rate I think this discussion is more or less over. Before turning this thread into a dead horse I'll let it go at that. I don't think I can add any more constructive comments to the discussion at hand, and I'm not going to be able to present any more thoughts that will change any minds beyond where they stand now. I posted my OP and the post just above this one, and others have chimed in with their own thoughts. I'll let this thread go at that. The rest is up to you guys to take the informatuon presented as you will and make your own conclusions. Ultimately that is the most important thing anyway.

Peace =^..^=

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 9:54pm by Melphina
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#75 Feb 15 2009 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
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LOL I just checked the BG thread and now they're making a pointless argument on whether or not it's worth it to always stack sa and ta with weaponskill or just fire the ability off ASAP. Thorny made the argument that fTP amplifies the difference in a stacked weaponskill and that you will ALWAYS be stacking sa and ta weaponskill, but Mel just accounted for the ftp bonus in her above post too. I wonder how many of those guys are actually gonna check the posts just made here or accept Thornys info as truth.

Either way, it's funny as **** to see BG get sparked like that over something posted here, because considering that all of them know everything there is to know, they sure as **** do argue a lot about the stuff that's already known as "correct". BG is no different than alla, and as much as they like to think so they don't all know as much as they think they do, they just have more people with elitist attitudes. Really they're no different than us though. Dare I say lolbg or at least, some of their posters who believe they are gods ultimate gift to the world?
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#76 Feb 15 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Default
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I forgot to include piercing bonus before, so I've added that in and I added in the difference between blau SA, TA and X's SA, TA. I multiplied SA and TA by 30 because I figure in an hour we probably land 30 solo SA and TA and end up combining maybe 20 of each with weapon skills. It's an approximation but I don't think it would be very far off.


Blau/Sirocco: 159,506
X's/Blau: 164,700

Blau SA: 520 * 30 = 15,600
X's SA: 592 * 30 = 17,760

Blau's TA: 442 * 30 = 13,260
X's TA: 508 * 30 = 15,240

X's favor: 5,194 + 2,160 + 1,980 = 9,334

As mephina has shown blau/sirocco is probably going to get around 9~ weapon skills more, but every weapon skill blau does will do less damage than X's. The only other thing to factor in is how much more X's weapon skills do compared to blau's.

Personally, I feel that if I added in the difference between X's and Blau's weapon skills and calculated that in as well the extra weapon skills from blau/sirocco would only make it catch up or fall short.

The thing to note is that blau will only pull ahead of X's if you weapon skill right away, asap, all the time. But even then if you're able to do that you're probably going to ride the SA and TA timers to exactness and that will end up helping X's.

My conclusion is that X's/Blau beats Blau/Sirocco, but that the it's not a clear win. In merit parties the two combinations are very close to each other. The other thing to take into account is that all mobs are not merit mobs and that X's will probably outdo blau on HNM type mobs where that .3 pDIF boost on SA and TA and all crits will be very helpful. I'm not sure if it'd beat out the +16attack and +5 acc from blau but I have a feeling it would.

The gear I used is:

TP:
[Blau][X's] / [Sirocco][Blau] / / Fire Bomblet
Turban / Love Torque / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredors
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

SA:
[Blau][X's] / [Sirocco][Blau] / / Bomb Core
Hecatomb / Love / Brutal / Hollow
Skadi / Hecatomb / Rajas / Thunder
Cuchulain / Warwolf / Hecatomb / Hecatomb

TA:
[Blau][X's] / [Sirocco][Blau] / / Bomb Core
Skadi / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Denali / Rogue / Breeze / Breeze
Assassin / Scouter / War+1 / Dragon

The reasons I chose those set ups are because for the most part that's what I have. I'm still lacking a few pieces like denali, hecacap skadi visor, cuchulains, and toredors, but they're not impossible for me to get.

Souji wrote:
Are you getting the 14% crit from something like this or from parses?


I'm getting it from a compilation of parses that were posted on BG a while ago. I don't appear to have the thread bookmarked but I did copypasta the information into notepad.

BG wrote:

90 DEX -> 11,49% Crits;
91 DEX -> 11,50% Crits;
94 DEX -> 11,22% Crits;
94 DEX -> 12,52% Crits;
95 DEX -> 12,63% Crits;
95 DEX -> 12,83% Crits;
95 DEX -> 13,14% Crits;
96 DEX -> 12,62% Crits;
96 DEX -> 12,42% Crits;
100 DEX -> 13,28% Crits;
101 DEX -> 13,72% Crits;
109 DEX -> 15,86% Crits;
110 DEX -> 17,61% Crits;
110 DEX -> 17,58% Crits;
110 DEX -> 23,20% Crits; (w/ Destroyers)
110 DEX -> 20,62% Crits; (w/ Senji)
110 DEX -> 17,52& Crits;
111 DEX -> 20,89% Crits;
112 DEX -> 21,07% Crits;
115 DEX -> 21,47% Crits;
117 DEX -> 23,03% Crits;
118 DEX -> 24,04% Crits;
118 DEX -> 23.38% Crits;
118 DEX -> 23,31% Crits;
118 DEX -> 24,41% Crits;


I figure the crit rate at 100 dex would be 13% or 14%.

I also need to remember to put my theoretical crit build against my current build using X's/blau. I wonder how devastating it would be.

------------------------------------

I figure I'll just copypasta all my rough math from notepad into here so we can see if I made any big mistakes.

notepad wrote:
Blau / Sirocco / / Bomblet
Walahra / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredor
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

352 attack
18% haste

Str 62 + 9(gear) + 5(food)
Dex 85 + 15(gear)
fstr = 3


Attack = 355 + 75(food) + 66(Minuet)
Acc = 386
Haste = 18% + 15%(Spell) + 11%(March)

Base Damage = 36/29
cratio = 1.166
min pDIF = 0.899; max pDIF = 1.399; Average = 1.149;

41 + 30 = 71/round.

1479.5~ attacks per hour + 324 + 73 = 1877~/hour

14% crit rate: pdif: 2.149; 77 + 62 = 139/round

36418 + 114594 = 151,012 / hour
* .845 = 127,605 / hour


X's / Blau / / Bomblet
Walahra / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredor
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

37 / 36
cratio = 1.166
min pDIF = 0.899; max pDIF = 1.399; Average = 1.149;

42 + 41 = 83 / round


1278 rounds / hour + 280 + 63 = 1621 rounds / hour

115702 + 40228 = 155930
*.845 = 131760

2.199 + 2.699 ) / 2 = 2.449; 226 rounds

90 + 88 = 178 / round
----------------------------------------------------------------


Blau / Sirocco / / Bomb Core
Hecatomb / Love / Brutal / Hollow
Skadi / Hecatomb / Rajas / Thunder
Cuchulain / Warwolf / Hecatomb / Hecatomb

Attack+53
Str62+38
Dex85+54
Dagger+7
Food: str+5 Attack+75

405 attack + 75 + 66 = 546 attack
fstr = 10
dex = 139
cratio = 1.319

2.0; 2.582; 2.291

33 + 10 + 139 = 182 * 2.291 =
416 -> 520

34 + 10 + 139 = 183 * 2.591 =
474 -> 592



Blau / Sirocco / / Bomb Core
Skadi / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Denali / Armlets / Breeze / Breeze
Assassin / Scouter / War+1 / Dragon

Attack +45
str: 62
agi: 76 + 42 = 118 * 1.15 = 135
food: str+5 attack+75

345 + 75 + 66 = 486 attack
cratio = 1.136
fstr = 0

1.863; 2.363; 2.113

33 + 135 = 168 * 2.113 =
354 -> 442

34 + 135 = 169 * 2.413 =
407 -> 508


The biggest difference I can see between your last post, melph, and mine is that I used a brd in the calculations. :x

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 12:21am by Deadgye
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