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(by request) X's/blau versus blau/sirocco comparisonFollow

#52 Feb 14 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Default
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Alright.. what did I do wrong:

Blau / Sirocco / / Bomblet
Walahra / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredor
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

352 attack
18% haste

Str 62 + 9(gear) + 5(food)
Dex 85 + 15(gear)
fstr = 3


Attack = 355 + 75(food) + 66(Minuet)
Acc = 386
Haste = 18% + 15%(Spell) + 11%(March)

Base Damage = 36/29
cratio = 1.166
min pDIF = 0.899; max pDIF = 1.399; Average = 1.149;

41 + 30 = 71/round.

1479.5~ attacks per hour + 324 + 73 = 1877~/hour

14% crit rate: pdif: 2.149; 77 + 62 = 139/round

36418 + 114594 = 151,012 / hour
* .845 = 127,605 / hour


X's / Blau / / Bomblet
Walahra / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredor
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

37 / 36
cratio = 1.166
min pDIF = 0.899; max pDIF = 1.399; Average = 1.149;

42 + 41 = 83 / round


1278 rounds / hour + 280 + 63 = 1621 rounds / hour

115702 + 37742 = 153444
*.845 = 129,660

2.199 + 2.699 ) / 2 = 2.449; 226 rounds

90 + 77 = 167 / round

(Ok.. this is by no means easy to read.. but yeah <.<;)
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#53 Feb 14 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Melphina, I do think that we need to look at Samurai Roll with X's/Blau again, just because I think with decent rolls, you can get down to an 18 hits to 100 tp, and that would actually help the X's/Blau set a little, however, They will still get significantly less WS than Blau/SK and still have less DoT.
#54 Feb 14 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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So here's the thing about EV vs. DE:

Do any of us use EV for fun? I know that every time I use it, it's to follow (or lead) Gekko or SC or another Distortion WS.

So I don't think X's EV vs. Blau DE is as much of a concern as X's EV vs. Blau EV, since I'd be using EV regardless of weapon. SC damage can be hard to quantify, but it's not insignificant.
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#55 Feb 14 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Evisceration is a difficult weaponskill to quantify because of the wording, but I have no reason to believe it is capable of breaking the critical cap hitrate of 20% (and 24% with merits). I have played with a dex build in farming and gone 3 (and RARELY 4) crits in a row, but i've also had streaks of 7-10 with no crits at all. In the end the parse dictates the true nature of a 24% crit rate over time, which was what I expected. When the sample size grew the numbers stabilized around this. However due to the fact that criticals CAN cluster together evisceration can sometimes throw out heartily fun numbers, but it's not common or stable like dancing edge is. The thing about the wsc I mentioned is then that when an evisceratiion hit DOES critical you get approximately 7-8 more base damage on that critical. But Had I used blau/sirocco and eviscerationed that critical would have happened anyway at base damage 77, so again the only difference is 7 base damage in a hit that crits because of the x's. is this going to help nullify it's gimpiness? Heck yeah, but it won't be enough to put it on par with dancing edge in the long run.

The thing about the x's bonus to criticals is that 10% of a low damage dagger just ISN'T THAT MUCH, and sneak and trick attack timers are on a limited use. Converting the formula to changes in base damage is an effective and reliable method of comparison, and when you view that you basically get one free critical for every 10 other criticals that would have happened. So for example if it takes me 3 minutes to critical 10 times at base damage 40, I get a bonus of 40 base damage every three minutes. Now if x's knife increased RATE of criticals by 10% THAT would be monstrous (almost twice that of destroyers O.O). You don't have to do anything fancy to make a critical awesome, a critical hit in and of itself is powerful no matter WHAT you have equipped. Because they happen naturally they are awesome alone.

Quote:

Melphina, I do think that we need to look at Samurai Roll with X's/Blau again, just because I think with decent rolls, you can get down to an 18 hits to 100 tp,


I will agree here that the margin can happen. But truthfully it can also swing towards the blau getting bonus rounds. The samurai roll has 11 numbers it can hit upon, (plus the occasional bust). Of course if the cor rolls a 1-5 he will double up, so realistically you have 6 numbers it will fall upon. But when you consider you can add skadi's chausses to the rajas as well as rolls 6-11 it leaves a massive disparity of what can potentially happen (and a bust leaves you with normal tp gain). Furthermore, the brutal earring has store tp + 0.1. In the rajas and skadi calculations it would not affect anything, but with rajas, skadi's, brutal, and sam roll you can a very large radius of store tp ranges to calculate. Because of this calculating Samurai roll effectively cannot be done with any degree of certainty, but it is safe to assume that it will always favor the blau/sirocco over the x's blau combo in the end.

Oh and on the note of this

Quote:
I do want to say thanks for going through all of this, Melphina. Just makes me a bit dumb for wasting my time and the time of my friends.


That's hardly a waste of time if you got the drop. X's can still be useful in shark bite, and on Gods where critical hits are worth more it has a nice situational application. Ballista adds a few things more, and its rarity makes it a trophy item that anyone who ownes one should be proud of. X's is not the optimal tp burn style dagger, but it's by no means useless and that will never make it worthless or bad. Because of just how horrible the drop rate IS (seriously soul crushing is accurate, you went over 100 runs which is 2 years) that is a sign of dedication and should be taken with pride. I have great respect for anyone who ownes one, and always will (even if it is just a lucky break 1/1, because after all I've gone through I can relate to luck (and also lack thereof))

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 7:15pm by Melphina
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#56 Feb 14 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
I will agree here that the margin can happen. But truthfully it can also swing towards the blau getting bonus rounds. The samurai roll has 11 numbers it can hit upon, (plus the occasional bust). Of course if the cor rolls a 1-5 he will double up, so realistically you have 6 numbers it will fall upon. But when you consider you can add skadi's chausses to the rajas as well as rolls 6-11 it leaves a massive disparity of what can potentially happen (and a bust leaves you with normal tp gain).

There are seven possible outcomes for Samurai Roll:

II (Lucky)
VII-XI (+5 outcomes here)
VI or Bust (not both, so only +1 outcome here)

Presuming you never Double Up on VII+, Bust is only a possibility if you Double Up on VI. So either you run the possibility of Busting, or you run the possibility of getting a VI, but you don't have the possibility of both.
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#57 Feb 14 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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Since I still don't see anything wrong, unless the lack of weapon skills can make up for the difference in favor of X's with DoT, WS damage, SA and TA damage I'm still considering X's better :x
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#58 Feb 14 2009 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote

Quote:
blau/sirocco
127,605 / hour in melee DoT

attacks per hour = 1877~/hour
accuracy == 84.5%

X's/blau

Melee DoT/hr == 129,660

attacks per hour == 1621 rounds/hr
accuracy == 84.5%



You neglected tp gain, which you were the one who taught me the importance of this first. You added actual pDIF ratios and multi round attacks, so this makes it REALLY easy.

Blau/sirocco gets 4.7 tp/hit and 9.4 tp/round while X's/blau gets 4.9 tp per hit and 9.8/round. Your accuracy is 84.5% thus

--------------
Blau/sirocco --- number of rounds x accuracy x tp/round

1877 x 0.845 x 9.4 == 14,909 tp/hr

------------------
X's/blau -- number of rounds x accuracy x tp/round

1621 x 0.845 x 9.8 == 13,423 tp/hr


a difference of 1486 tp/hr
--------------------------------

the difference in ACTUAL melee DoT was 129,660 - 127,605 == 2055 ACTUAL damage (because you added pDIF).

-------------
Summary:

If you can't create 2055 ACTUAL damage with over 12-13 weaponskills your thief sucks monkey balls >.>. (and I know your thief can put up good numbers deadgye)

If you factored wind damage on non colibri/puks

1877 x (accuracy) x 7 damage (average given for wind) == a &^%$# ton of damage.
(I left accuracy unaccounted for because different targets will change this but it's assumed over 80%)


By posting those numbers you proved my OP beyond a shadow of a doubt , because it even incorporates multi round attacks and pDIF (I do appreciate that part though, since it shows just how big the change can really be by swapping daggers)

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 8:22pm by Melphina
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#59 Feb 14 2009 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Well that's just the difference from DoT. We've yet to calculate the difference for SA, TA, and the difference in weapon skills, and factor in how many times I use shark bite at 200 tp because I wasn't paying attention. :p

I'm not including the wind damage from sirocco because I did the math on colibri, and I really don't want to pretend everything will work out exactly the same on other types of mobs.

I just have a feeling the damage difference is too close to try and calculate mathematically.

I'm personally wondering how X's compares to blau when not /nin.

Also, I'm correct in thinking that the X's special effect only affects X's knife and not the other knife it's paired with, right?
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#60 Feb 14 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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I am pretty sure it was proven long ago that x's effects both hands. Was tested by offhanding it and using SA.
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#61 Feb 14 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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X's Knife is any and all melee critical hits. Does not apply to ranged criticals that I've noticed.
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#62 Feb 14 2009 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the discussion guys, and especially thanks to Melphina for posting the numbers. I now feel a lot better about not being able to get a group to do the bcnm with. And btw deadgye, how the heck do can you say a difference in 2055 damage in DoT can be anything similar to 1700+ tp? If you waste tp with blau/sirocco to 200% would you not end up doing the same with x's/sirocco, Keeping the weaponskills gained by blau/sirocco the same?
#63 Feb 14 2009 at 11:39 PM Rating: Default
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Deadgye wrote:
I just have a feeling the damage difference is too close to try and calculate mathematically.


This.

You have a great hypothesis going here. Test it. Go parse. Save all your logs from meriting, HNMs, Salvage, Dynamis, do controlled tests in all those fields and really narrow down where each dagger shines.
#64 Feb 15 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Melphina wrote:


Quote:
Melphina, I do think that we need to look at Samurai Roll with X's/Blau again, just because I think with decent rolls, you can get down to an 18 hits to 100 tp,



I will agree here that the margin can happen. But truthfully it can also swing towards the blau getting bonus rounds. The samurai roll has 11 numbers it can hit upon, (plus the occasional bust). Of course if the cor rolls a 1-5 he will double up, so realistically you have 6 numbers it will fall upon. But when you consider you can add skadi's chausses to the rajas as well as rolls 6-11 it leaves a massive disparity of what can potentially happen (and a bust leaves you with normal tp gain). Furthermore, the brutal earring has store tp + 0.1. In the rajas and skadi calculations it would not affect anything, but with rajas, skadi's, brutal, and sam roll you can a very large radius of store tp ranges to calculate. Because of this calculating Samurai roll effectively cannot be done with any degree of certainty, but it is safe to assume that it will always favor the blau/sirocco over the x's blau combo in the end.


If your in a meripo with a Cor, there would need to be a very good reason why that Cor would do anything other than 2 out of Corsair's/Chaos/Hunters. STP roll's benefit is more for the 2H's to knock a round off getting to 100% tp, for 1H's, Rouge's roll would be more benificial, especially with X's equipped, and especially with a THF in the party.

a lucky 5 would give +18% crit rate, 11 would be +24% crits, 6,7,8,10 give 11%-14% crit rate - those numbers are kinda huge, even an unlucky 9 gives 7% crit rate, which is by no means gimp.
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#65 Feb 15 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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GeoMaximus wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
I just have a feeling the damage difference is too close to try and calculate mathematically.


This.

You have a great hypothesis going here. Test it. Go parse. Save all your logs from meriting, HNMs, Salvage, Dynamis, do controlled tests in all those fields and really narrow down where each dagger shines.


This is the opposite of a controlled test actually. The reasons for doing a controlled test is to find and quantity hidden stats or how hidden stats affect our output. For instance, when the new pDIF caps were found, they were controlled tests because we knew we were hitting fSTR cap, we knew we were also hitting ATK cap, since we were going against TW. To find WSC, we do the same with WS, but use crits to ensure the variations we have are less.

However, what you're suggesting here is to place it in a bunch of fields with unknown variables, that can change every monster based on the actions of other players, and use that as data defining which is better. That won't help matters, and it really isn't necessary. Play style WILL change the results, but we can predict how it will change based on the numbers. Numbers aren't theories. These are the formulas the game are build on, so they are true, so long as the same exact methods are used in game. That is, of course, impossible.

Things that are obvious variables In favor of X's:
Over tp, Blau/Sk does more damage in tp produced. Going over 100% before WSing lowers that.
Feather tickle, stun, sleep, time between pulls, and other things that delay WS going off, but lower timers between SA/TA.
Outside buffs: lower ATK scores and higher crit rates(COR) support X's.
As mentioned, battles where you aren't meleeing much, gain tp, run in WS, run out.

Variables that negatively impact X's:
Merit party situations in general favor Blau/Sk more(atleast the way I and the people I seem to find play)
Examples: My most recent merit party, with ls members and old friends, I had 72 attempted SA but only 40 successful. TA also showed 70 attempted and 52 successful. This is because of moving people, moving enemies, and how party members often surround the enemy instead of being on one side. I've had parties where TA didn't have much problems, but SA did, because I had majority hate as well.
ATK buffs and strong debuffs will lower the increase you get from crits, lowering the additional bonuses X's provides.
Low crit rates: My crit rate with 4 crit merited is ~7.5% once SA/TA is removed.
I'm not sure if this was calced above at that rate, but your crit rate varies on enemies, so while some it could be stronger, some it could be worse.



In the end, with the playstyle that most agree to bring out the most damage(solo ws, SA and TA, unless they happen to line up) Blau/SK produces enough tp to surpass X's.
Mistress Melphina wrote:
Summary:

If you can't create 2055 ACTUAL damage with over 12-13 weaponskills your thief sucks monkey balls >.>. (and I know your thief can put up good numbers deadgye)

My last party I averaged ~680 damage per solo WS using this setup, a BRD using 1 minuet, and Crab Sushi. No Dia was cast on enemies. I made sure to use the THF section of kparser to check only solo WS, and removed those that were too high and had to be a misparsed SA or TAWS(I only used 1 TAWS that party anyway). So 10-13 WS(lowering the lower amount by alot just to give X's that extra advantage for overtp, it won't really lower it that much) should be ~7000-9000 damage. It really isn't close enough, especially since I know I will miss a great number of SA and TA, more than I'll over tp or get feather tickled, unless I get a perfect party where everyone always sits to one side and I can line up perfectly even when blinking gear(I've missed several TA just because it took to long for my char to reappear and I couldn't see where I was).

I don't really agree with the people who say the math isn't clear enough to make a judgment. It's the same deal with people who oppose Hagun. If the difference is a clear difference like in this and Hagun's case, but your results are drastically different, it's probably because you're doing it wrong(for instance, hagun pulls further away when you WS every 100 tp, and use a 6-hit, as well as using med on the dot and having it merited. If you don't use it that way, ofcourse Onimaru can pull ahead).

Finally, as Mel pointed out, there's the difficulty in getting a weapon that will generally be outperformed in merits, may be better in other places. Unless you enjoy it, don't bother killing yourself over getting it. If you have it, it isn't a **** dagger. However, you may want to reevaluate where you use it. You can be stubborn and keep using it because of the work if you like. It won't hurt you. However, don't try to justify and say you do better damage with it when you don't.
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#66 Feb 15 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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LordTrey wrote:
I am pretty sure it was proven long ago that x's effects both hands. Was tested by offhanding it and using SA.

dawdr wrote:
X's Knife is any and all melee critical hits. Does not apply to ranged criticals that I've noticed.

Ah crap, I have to go back and bring up X/blau's dot/hour then.

K, new numbers:

Blau/Sirocco: 127,605 / hour
X's/Blau: 131,760 / hour

I'll calculate the difference in sata damage with a decent setup after I get back from a bike ride.

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 1:16pm by Deadgye
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#67 Feb 15 2009 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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Are you getting the 14% crit from something like this or from parses?
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#68 Feb 15 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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#69 Feb 15 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I see the link Veggeto. I'm not surprised they found something to criticize me on. Actually the point
Quote:

increase pdif to 2.3 if that's how x's works - 425.5 damage, an increase of 55.5
increase damage by 10% if that's how x's works - 407 damage, an increase of 37


Is true. If normal pDIF is 1.0 then 2.0 would be a normal crit and using a base damage weapon of 40

40 x 2.0 == 80
40 x 2.3 == 92
44 x 2.0 == 88

so in the case of uncapped attack yeah, there's gonna be a bit of change. I would have had to consider pDIF after all, as is the case with everything. But it still doesn't change the overall trend by THAT much. In my OP I gave X's a 20% critical rate, which it usually isn't. I also accounted for a much weaker than average weaponskill build than most people should have. Considering the numbers deadgye gave in an actual scenario the trend still favors the blau/sirocco.

Quote:

His math is nowhere near accurate using either of the examples on wiki, he confused base damage and actual damage which made all of his results drawn from it entirely worthless as they're only giving X's 1/3 to 1/2 of the benefit it actually gives the player. That a good enough explanation?


1/3 to 1/2 the benefit also isn't THAT big a change when you consider the volume of disparity in the calculated results. They knock my math because I'm posting on alla, but they obviously know nothing about me (or else they'd know I'm actually a woman, and wouldn't be addressing me as "he").

The point I wanted to make was that the belief that x's is the best dagger to pair with blau (barring relic) stems from the dagger update over 2 years ago, and I still haven't heard of any other people running actual numbers. If my math is really THAT far off and lolworthy then they're welcome to run the numbers themselves and see for themselves which combo comes out on top. I'm not out to start any cross forum wars by running my numbers, I'm just searching for the better scenarios because I love the job. I don't care about being called an allatard, nor having my math laughed at. It's still pretty close and the trend shows a significant difference in potential, enough that I'm pretty sure the verdict stands.

Again, I offer them to run the numbers themselves and give a better representation, but discrediting what I showed without knowing the first thing about me and assuming it's totally wrong because of the place it's posted on is foolish. I'm a very good thief, and I understand enough to make logical conclusions given the information at hand. If they can run math that shows contrary to my OP I'll accept that, I am human and capable of error after all. But if they tl;dr and just discard my input and throw it to the wayside without showing their own figures it doesn't help the discussion at hand, and barring some massive upset of what I calculated can be found I don't think the verdict will change at all.

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 6:52pm by Melphina
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#70 Feb 15 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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Pay no attention to Bluegartr Melphina.... they are always right until someone comes in and irrefutably proves that they are wrong....
#71 Feb 15 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
I see the link Veggeto. I'm not surprised they found something to criticize me on. Actually the point
Quote:

increase pdif to 2.3 if that's how x's works - 425.5 damage, an increase of 55.5
increase damage by 10% if that's how x's works - 407 damage, an increase of 37


Is true. If normal pDIF is 1.0 then 2.0 would be a normal crit and using a base damage weapon of 40

40 x 2.0 == 80
40 x 2.3 == 92
44 x 2.0 == 88

so in the case of uncapped attack yeah, there's gonna be a bit of change. I would have had to consider pDIF after all, as is the case with everything. But it still doesn't change the overall trend by THAT much. In my OP I gave X's a 20% critical rate, which it usually isn't. I also accounted for a much weaker than average weaponskill build than most people should have. Considering the numbers deadgye gave in an actual scenario the trend still favors the blau/sirocco.

Quote:

His math is nowhere near accurate using either of the examples on wiki, he confused base damage and actual damage which made all of his results drawn from it entirely worthless as they're only giving X's 1/3 to 1/2 of the benefit it actually gives the player. That a good enough explanation?


1/3 to 1/2 the benefit also isn't THAT big a change when you consider the volume of disparity in the calculated results. They knock my math because I'm posting on alla, but they obviously know nothing about me (or else they'd know I'm actually a woman, and wouldn't be addressing me as "he").

The point I wanted to make was that the belief that x's is the best dagger to pair with blau (barring relic) stems from the dagger update over 2 years ago, and I still haven't heard of any other people running actual numbers. If my math is really THAT far off and lolworthy then they're welcome to run the numbers themselves and see for themselves which combo comes out on top. I'm not out to start any cross forum wars by running my numbers, I'm just searching for the better scenarios because I love the job. I don't care about being called an allatard, nor having my math laughed at. It's still pretty close and the trend shows a significant difference in potential, enough that I'm pretty sure the verdict stands.

Again, I offer them to run the numbers themselves and give a better representation, but discrediting what I showed without knowing the first thing about me and assuming it's totally wrong because of the place it's posted on is foolish. I'm a very good thief, and I understand enough to make logical conclusions given the information at hand. If they can run math that shows contrary to my OP I'll accept that, I am human and capable of error after all. But if they tl;dr and just discard my input and throw it to the wayside without showing their own figures it doesn't help the discussion at hand, and barring some massive upset of what I calculated can be found I don't think the verdict will change at all.

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 6:52pm by Melphina


Thorny, BG wrote:
I already did run math that shows contrary to their OP, since their later calculations all use the given numbers from their first assumption(and you only have 1.0 PDIF on SA or TA if you somehow managed to have 0 attack.. 2 is the very least you'll ever have in any reasonable situation). Since they make such a big point of knowing who they are, if I knew they had a **** I obviously wouldn't have bothered arguing or posting corrections, that makes them infallible anyway D;






Edited, Feb 15th 2009 7:53pm by Veggeto
#72 Feb 15 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to do an actual comparison of these dagers with live stats, similar to deadgye. But I'm going to use my actual gear and stats, so let's see just how "lol worthy" my math is.

Target mob == level 81 greater colibri

Notes: dexterity is merited 5 times, dagger skill is merited 8 times, food == coeurl subs. Crits are merited 4 times.

----------------------
TP gear setup

blau/sirocco fire bomblet
turban, love torque, brutal, suppa
antares harness, homam, toreador's, rajas
cuchulain's, swift, homam, dusk

Gear haste == 17%
Gear accuracy == 41
gear attack == 21

I will add magic haste of 15% as the only buff for simplicty
----------------------------
Calculating Hitrate

85 (base dex with 5 merits) + 22 (gear) == 107 dex

accuracy == 282 from dagger skill, 53 from dexterity, 41 from equipment. Total accuracy == 376

Hitrate on level 81 birds will be 84%
------------------------------------------
Calculating fSTR

Strength == 62 + 5 (meat) + 9 (gear) == 76 strength.
76 - 67 == 9
dSTR == 9
9 + 6 == 15
(15/2) == 7.5.
7.5/2 == 3.75.
fSTR == 3

-----------------------
Calculating pDIF

attack == 8 + 292 (dagger skill) + 36 (str) + 21 (gear) == base attack of 357. 357 x 1.2 (meat) == 428 attack.

Level 81 greater colibri defense == 322.
428/322 == 1.329
1.329 - 3.0 == 1.029 cRatio
Max pDIF == 1.234
Min pDIF == 0.734


Average pDIF == 0.984
Average Critical pDIF == 1.984
Average critical pDIF with X's knife equipped == 2.284

-------------------------------
Calculating crit rate

The proposed notion is that once dex is 40+ over the mobs agility you get 10% + 1% for each point of dex capping at 20% base crit rate. 107 - 67 == 40, thus

10% base rate of crits + 4% with crit merits == 14% crit rate
-----------------------------------------
Calculating number of swings per round

Triple attack is merited 5 times, and I have brutal thus in 100 rounds

100 x 0.05 == 5 extra attacks from brutal
95 x 0.1 x 2 ==== 19 extra attacks from triple attacks
(100 x 2) + 5 + 19 == 224 attacks per 100 rounds
2.24 attacks/round



----------------------
Part A:Blau/Sirocco calculation


Blau/sirocco delay == 328.
328 x 0.8 x 0.68 == 178.432
rounds/hr == 1210.547

1210.547 rounds/hr x 2.24 attacks/round == 2711 attacks/hr
2711/2 == 1355.5 attacks per hand per hour

Blau
------------------
0.14 x 36 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 1.984 == 11,385 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 36 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 34,687 damage in melee non crits

Sirocco
------------
0.14 x 29 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 1.984 == 9,171 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 29 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 27,942 damage in melee non crits

Total melee DoT of blau/sirocco (ignoring wind procs) 83,185

Calculating tp accrual

2711 attacks x 0.84 x 4.7 == 10,703 tp/hr
----------------------------------------

Part B: X's/blau calculation

x's/blau delay == 379
379 x 0.8 x 0.68 == 206.176
rounds per hour == 1047.648

1047.648 rounds/hr x 2.24 attacks/round == 2346 attacks/hr
2346/2 == 1173 attacks per hand per hour

X's
------------------
0.14 x 37 x 1173 x 0.84 x 2.284 == 11,657 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 37 x 1173 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 30,851 damage in melee non crits

Blau
------------------
0.14 x 36 x 1173 x 0.84 x 2.284 == 11,342 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 36 x 1173 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 30,017 damage in melee non crits

Total melee DoT of X's/blau 83,867


Calculating tp accrual

2346 attacks x 0.84 x 4.9 == 9,656 tp/hr

a difference of 682 ACTUAL melee damage at a cost of 1047 TP
---------------------------------

Unstacked ability useage

Trick attack and sneak attack base damage was ~~185-190. Since x's gets its biggest increase here I'll use 190

These abilities get 1.125 uses every minute at 1.984 averaged critical pDIF without x's and with x's 2.284 average critical pDIF

Blau/sirocco
190 x 1.125 x 1.984 x 60 == 25,444 if I apply all unstacked

X's/blau
190 x 1,125 x 2.284 x 60 == 29,292 if I apply all unstacked

This is a difference of 3848 ACTUAL damage
----------------
Stacked Ability useage

My stacked weaponskill set has 85 + 51 == 136 dex, and 46 chr. I also have capped fSTR
(136 x 0.3) + (46 x 0.4) == 59.2 wsc, floored to 59
59 x 0.83 alpha == 48.97, floored to 48 WSC

With X's knife
(( 34 + 10 + 48) x 1.1875) == 109 base damage first saws hit + 136 (dex) == 245 base damage first hit of DE

thus
245 x 2.284 x 60 == 33,574 if I apply all stacked


Blau/sirocco
((33 + 10 + 48) x 1.1875) == 108 base damage first hit + 136 == base 244 damage first hit of DE

thus
244 x 1.984 x 60 == 29,045 if I apply all stacked with DE

a difference of 4529 maximum damage, which when combined with melee DoT is a maximum difference of 5211 damage/hr

The price to pay is 1047 TP, or at minimum 9 weaponskills

The difference that I would have to make up in weaponskills would be an average of 579 damage in each weaponskill minus the difference the base damage between x's/blau and blau/sirocco. I would hope to **** my dancing edges average more than this (trust me, they do). If I gave this the full 10 weaponskill range I would need only 452 averaged actual damage. I also considered this difference with the MAXIMUM where I stacked ALL weaponskilsl with sneak attack + de, when in reality this will also not be the case.


And as a final note, this STILL does NOT consider the wind proc of sirocco, which if you take 1355 attacks/hr x 0.84 == 1138 connecting rounds of sirocco, which if you average wind damage low to only 6 damage that's

6 x 1138 == 6828 actual damage.

I just did a live calculation with all the factors involved, and the blau/sirocco still came out on top. The margin of gain was a bit smaller than I expected, but unless my figures are grossely off this is the result of it.

I will admit however that with rogue's roll the x's knife can probably win this one. I will change my stance on that in lieu of what was calculated above. In light of this if you have rogue's roll you will probably see a greater increase with x's/blau overblau/sirocco, most definately so if the target is birds where wind does not proc. However without Rogue's Roll I still stand by my OP in that blau/sirocco is suuperior to x's/blau in tp burn.

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 9:41pm by Melphina
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#73 Feb 15 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just read that entire thread on BG and when it comes down to actually giving advice on anything it just seems all they can ever resort to is bashing OP or someone/something else in the thread. The first response is classic BG asshole.

Yes I think there are plenty of "Allatards" but when I have any type of question or topic I think is worth trying to discuss I come here because posters like Melphina, LolGaxe, Milich to name a few, will actually give solid advice on what they truly believe is the right answers to the questions given.

Good work Melphina. We all appreciate you here.
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#74 Feb 15 2009 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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For the record since the poster on BG didn't post his numbers in an actual pDIF live scenario, I posted an example of mine.

Thanks for the comment mikes, It's appreciated. But honestly I'd post what I do whether people agree with me or not. This is the internet, really that's all that has to be said. Where you can comment without being face to face with no real world ramifications there is bound to be negative interaction on a gaming form, as we have seen in the past many times and many places. Human nature is never inescapable, whether in game, on the board, or any other place in life, and competitiveness is a natural part of us (I won't lie, I'm competitive as **** too, it's why I keep pushing to make my thief better). I take everything said with a grain of salt. If someone can post numbers contradicting mine I'll change my stance, I care more about accuracy than winning, but in this case I honestly believe my conclusion is the correct one.

At any rate I think this discussion is more or less over. Before turning this thread into a dead horse I'll let it go at that. I don't think I can add any more constructive comments to the discussion at hand, and I'm not going to be able to present any more thoughts that will change any minds beyond where they stand now. I posted my OP and the post just above this one, and others have chimed in with their own thoughts. I'll let this thread go at that. The rest is up to you guys to take the informatuon presented as you will and make your own conclusions. Ultimately that is the most important thing anyway.

Peace =^..^=

Edited, Feb 15th 2009 9:54pm by Melphina
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#75 Feb 15 2009 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
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LOL I just checked the BG thread and now they're making a pointless argument on whether or not it's worth it to always stack sa and ta with weaponskill or just fire the ability off ASAP. Thorny made the argument that fTP amplifies the difference in a stacked weaponskill and that you will ALWAYS be stacking sa and ta weaponskill, but Mel just accounted for the ftp bonus in her above post too. I wonder how many of those guys are actually gonna check the posts just made here or accept Thornys info as truth.

Either way, it's funny as **** to see BG get sparked like that over something posted here, because considering that all of them know everything there is to know, they sure as **** do argue a lot about the stuff that's already known as "correct". BG is no different than alla, and as much as they like to think so they don't all know as much as they think they do, they just have more people with elitist attitudes. Really they're no different than us though. Dare I say lolbg or at least, some of their posters who believe they are gods ultimate gift to the world?
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#76 Feb 15 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Default
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I forgot to include piercing bonus before, so I've added that in and I added in the difference between blau SA, TA and X's SA, TA. I multiplied SA and TA by 30 because I figure in an hour we probably land 30 solo SA and TA and end up combining maybe 20 of each with weapon skills. It's an approximation but I don't think it would be very far off.


Blau/Sirocco: 159,506
X's/Blau: 164,700

Blau SA: 520 * 30 = 15,600
X's SA: 592 * 30 = 17,760

Blau's TA: 442 * 30 = 13,260
X's TA: 508 * 30 = 15,240

X's favor: 5,194 + 2,160 + 1,980 = 9,334

As mephina has shown blau/sirocco is probably going to get around 9~ weapon skills more, but every weapon skill blau does will do less damage than X's. The only other thing to factor in is how much more X's weapon skills do compared to blau's.

Personally, I feel that if I added in the difference between X's and Blau's weapon skills and calculated that in as well the extra weapon skills from blau/sirocco would only make it catch up or fall short.

The thing to note is that blau will only pull ahead of X's if you weapon skill right away, asap, all the time. But even then if you're able to do that you're probably going to ride the SA and TA timers to exactness and that will end up helping X's.

My conclusion is that X's/Blau beats Blau/Sirocco, but that the it's not a clear win. In merit parties the two combinations are very close to each other. The other thing to take into account is that all mobs are not merit mobs and that X's will probably outdo blau on HNM type mobs where that .3 pDIF boost on SA and TA and all crits will be very helpful. I'm not sure if it'd beat out the +16attack and +5 acc from blau but I have a feeling it would.

The gear I used is:

TP:
[Blau][X's] / [Sirocco][Blau] / / Fire Bomblet
Turban / Love Torque / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredors
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

SA:
[Blau][X's] / [Sirocco][Blau] / / Bomb Core
Hecatomb / Love / Brutal / Hollow
Skadi / Hecatomb / Rajas / Thunder
Cuchulain / Warwolf / Hecatomb / Hecatomb

TA:
[Blau][X's] / [Sirocco][Blau] / / Bomb Core
Skadi / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Denali / Rogue / Breeze / Breeze
Assassin / Scouter / War+1 / Dragon

The reasons I chose those set ups are because for the most part that's what I have. I'm still lacking a few pieces like denali, hecacap skadi visor, cuchulains, and toredors, but they're not impossible for me to get.

Souji wrote:
Are you getting the 14% crit from something like this or from parses?


I'm getting it from a compilation of parses that were posted on BG a while ago. I don't appear to have the thread bookmarked but I did copypasta the information into notepad.

BG wrote:

90 DEX -> 11,49% Crits;
91 DEX -> 11,50% Crits;
94 DEX -> 11,22% Crits;
94 DEX -> 12,52% Crits;
95 DEX -> 12,63% Crits;
95 DEX -> 12,83% Crits;
95 DEX -> 13,14% Crits;
96 DEX -> 12,62% Crits;
96 DEX -> 12,42% Crits;
100 DEX -> 13,28% Crits;
101 DEX -> 13,72% Crits;
109 DEX -> 15,86% Crits;
110 DEX -> 17,61% Crits;
110 DEX -> 17,58% Crits;
110 DEX -> 23,20% Crits; (w/ Destroyers)
110 DEX -> 20,62% Crits; (w/ Senji)
110 DEX -> 17,52& Crits;
111 DEX -> 20,89% Crits;
112 DEX -> 21,07% Crits;
115 DEX -> 21,47% Crits;
117 DEX -> 23,03% Crits;
118 DEX -> 24,04% Crits;
118 DEX -> 23.38% Crits;
118 DEX -> 23,31% Crits;
118 DEX -> 24,41% Crits;


I figure the crit rate at 100 dex would be 13% or 14%.

I also need to remember to put my theoretical crit build against my current build using X's/blau. I wonder how devastating it would be.

------------------------------------

I figure I'll just copypasta all my rough math from notepad into here so we can see if I made any big mistakes.

notepad wrote:
Blau / Sirocco / / Bomblet
Walahra / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredor
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

352 attack
18% haste

Str 62 + 9(gear) + 5(food)
Dex 85 + 15(gear)
fstr = 3


Attack = 355 + 75(food) + 66(Minuet)
Acc = 386
Haste = 18% + 15%(Spell) + 11%(March)

Base Damage = 36/29
cratio = 1.166
min pDIF = 0.899; max pDIF = 1.399; Average = 1.149;

41 + 30 = 71/round.

1479.5~ attacks per hour + 324 + 73 = 1877~/hour

14% crit rate: pdif: 2.149; 77 + 62 = 139/round

36418 + 114594 = 151,012 / hour
* .845 = 127,605 / hour


X's / Blau / / Bomblet
Walahra / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Homam / Homam / Rajas / Toredor
Cuchulain / Swift / Homam / Homam

37 / 36
cratio = 1.166
min pDIF = 0.899; max pDIF = 1.399; Average = 1.149;

42 + 41 = 83 / round


1278 rounds / hour + 280 + 63 = 1621 rounds / hour

115702 + 40228 = 155930
*.845 = 131760

2.199 + 2.699 ) / 2 = 2.449; 226 rounds

90 + 88 = 178 / round
----------------------------------------------------------------


Blau / Sirocco / / Bomb Core
Hecatomb / Love / Brutal / Hollow
Skadi / Hecatomb / Rajas / Thunder
Cuchulain / Warwolf / Hecatomb / Hecatomb

Attack+53
Str62+38
Dex85+54
Dagger+7
Food: str+5 Attack+75

405 attack + 75 + 66 = 546 attack
fstr = 10
dex = 139
cratio = 1.319

2.0; 2.582; 2.291

33 + 10 + 139 = 182 * 2.291 =
416 -> 520

34 + 10 + 139 = 183 * 2.591 =
474 -> 592



Blau / Sirocco / / Bomb Core
Skadi / Love / Brutal / Suppa
Denali / Armlets / Breeze / Breeze
Assassin / Scouter / War+1 / Dragon

Attack +45
str: 62
agi: 76 + 42 = 118 * 1.15 = 135
food: str+5 attack+75

345 + 75 + 66 = 486 attack
cratio = 1.136
fstr = 0

1.863; 2.363; 2.113

33 + 135 = 168 * 2.113 =
354 -> 442

34 + 135 = 169 * 2.413 =
407 -> 508


The biggest difference I can see between your last post, melph, and mine is that I used a brd in the calculations. :x

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 12:21am by Deadgye
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#77 Feb 15 2009 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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Thorny BG wrote:
except they're assuming your tp over 100 carries toward next set of tp and you never disengage, both of which favor blau/sirocco not X's/blau.. an hour long example is pretty worthless because in the course of an hour any half decent party will have you disengaging dozens of times because you run out of mobs very frequently, each time resetting delay
#78 Feb 15 2009 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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Veggeto wrote:
Thorny BG wrote:
except they're assuming your tp over 100 carries toward next set of tp and you never disengage, both of which favor blau/sirocco not X's/blau.. an hour long example is pretty worthless because in the course of an hour any half decent party will have you disengaging dozens of times because you run out of mobs very frequently, each time resetting delay


I mentioned that earlier... both sides have problems where they'd fall behind the numbers. I usually can't land that many SA in a party because of moving monster. I miss a few TA because people move and/or my char is still blinking, and I can't line up correctly. Factors will affect both sides... I don't think the argument is that X's sucks. It's just not better. If you factor in the effort involved... some may not even wanna bother :P
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#79 Feb 15 2009 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
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Souji wrote:
Veggeto wrote:
Thorny BG wrote:
except they're assuming your tp over 100 carries toward next set of tp and you never disengage, both of which favor blau/sirocco not X's/blau.. an hour long example is pretty worthless because in the course of an hour any half decent party will have you disengaging dozens of times because you run out of mobs very frequently, each time resetting delay


I mentioned that earlier... both sides have problems where they'd fall behind the numbers. I usually can't land that many SA in a party because of moving monster. I miss a few TA because people move and/or my char is still blinking, and I can't line up correctly. Factors will affect both sides... I don't think the argument is that X's sucks. It's just not better. If you factor in the effort involved... some may not even wanna bother :P


I disagree. Smiley: motz
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#80 Feb 16 2009 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye;2515248 wrote:
Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Thief

In a perfect world, blau/sirocco will be about equal/almost equal to X's/blau in a lolibri merit party. Since we don't live in a perfect world, I'll be using X's/blau over blau/sirocco if I get myself an X's.




Thorny;2515272 wrote:
♫ In a perfect world
This could never happen
In a perfect world
You’d still be here
And it makes no sense
I could just pick up the pieces
But to you this means nothing
Nothing at all ♫

Emo lyrics aside, X's is awesome for anything higher level as well since a larger fraction of your damage is coming from your JAs compared to damage generated by weaponskills themselves. Blau/Sirocco is by no means gimp, but this math is no excuse to stop trying X's BC.


Deadgye;2515322 wrote:
Aye, nobody disagrees with that. That entire thread was just focused purely on lolibri. I'm pretty sure a lot of people were getting the wrong impression and thinking that X's was not worth trying to get.

And if we follow the math I did, there's no excuse to even be found. (Unless I did something wrong, lol)




Raen Ryong;2515352 wrote:
Not my fault you get hit by Pecking Flurries under the effect of Berserk after a critical hit :(

But on the general note, I've always wondered whether X/Blau would actually outdo Blau/Sirocco in a "speedburn" situation, though in more "endgame" fights I don't think there would be any contest.

An interesting note is that certain weaponskills are amplified by X's more than others, notably Mandalic Stab...
#81 Feb 16 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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This is why i personally prefer to work in % increases than Xdamage/hour increases. The results are more or less the same but doesnt give the wiggle room for people to attack the numbers because its "unrealistic" for a party to function that way. Or otherwise try to poke holes in it because they arent "real" numbers you would expect to see. (although the results are the same as working with %)

So in another light (and i realize this is treading on dedhorse teritory and is a slightly simplified version in some ways. But primarily aimed at people that attack the Xdamage per hour needlessly)
_____________________________
TP
Blau/Sirocco is 4.7TP for 131.2 delay (9.4 for 262.4)
X's/Blau is 4.9tp for 151.6 delay(9.8 for 303.2)
*with Suppa/Rajas/Brutal


B/S=2.15tp/sec
X/B=1.94tp/sec

Blau/Sirocco gains TP 11% faster than X's/Blau. If you WS exactly at 100tp, 110tp, 200tp, or 270tp it doesnt matter. You will get to that TP value on average 11% faster. So regardless of your personal playstyle, you will still get to WS 11% more often.

There is no question of "well wasted TP isnt accounted for" etc because the combo itself gains TP ~11% faster. Therefore over ANY stretch of time, you will ultimately gain 11% more TP for you to use however you want. So long as you use the same playstyle regarding TP with either combo Sirocco will WS 11% more over time. Unless you intentionally hold TP with Sirocco and let loose with X's which would be an unfair comparison anyway.
_________________________
Similarly DPS can be done the same way.(no Fstr included)

B/S is d33+d26 with 262.4 delay puts the combo at 13.5dps
X/B is 35+33 with 303.2 delay puts the combo at 13.28
Puts sirocco at a somewhat minor ~1.6% increase in actual DoT.

However once you toss in any +Fstr, ANY wind damage (even the 0-3 on colibri) etc will widen this gap very quickly.
__________________________
Crits (giving a VERY generous 20% rate and a genrous 1.0 pdif for X's)
would make X's crits be 2.2x normal melee, while B/S is onle 2.0.

Crits in general (with 20% rate) would raise up the DPS from the current numbers with an extra 22% and 20% respectively.

B/S=16.2 now
X/B=16.2 now.
0% increase over the other

For comparison sake, heres the same calc with a 1.5 pdif and 12% crit rate (more realistic. Standard brd party). X Crits would be 1.83x normal damage and B/S 1.66x normal melee damage. Crits averaged over a 12% proc with the lower increases gives you only 7.9% for B/S total DPS bonus, X's/B gets 9.9% bonus.

B/S=14.57
X/B=14.59
Now a 1.36% lead for X's.

So after crits are accounted for for TPing, the DPS is very close, but this is still without any say from Fstr or wind damage.
I would be completely shocked if Fstr and wind damage cant up your DPS by 1.3% in siroccos favor. Consider that a blau/sir (D33+26) at 1.5 Pdif and piercing bonus is about 110 damage cmobined. If sirocco needs only proc for an avg of 1.4 damage to make up the DPS difference for X's. Add Fstr, lower Pdif, less resistant mobs, non piercing mobs X's will fall behind very quickly.
_______________
WS damage (per WS)
X's needs to make up 11% more WS damage from blau sirocco. All its got is higher base damage on WS and SA/TA crit bonus to work with.

Using Melph's WS numbers
Quote:

33 + 44 + 5 == 82 base damage for 5 main hits, and 26 + 44 + 5 == 75 damage for the offhand hit of blau/sirocco. Thus (82 x 5) + 75 == 485 base damage. Realistically every dancing edge should average much closer to 500 base damage when you consider multi procs, but for this discussion I'll give a low number to further prove the discussion at hand. This accounts for anyone with a weaker weaponskill set, because it should never go much lower than 450 base damage (accuracy is unimportant here due to associativity of what is being compared).


Xs/B will get +12 base damage over B/S.

B/S=450
X/B=462
2.6% increase for Xs on WS damage assuming a very poor WS set which is in X's favor. But a far cry from countering the 11% increased WS rate for Blau/Sirocco.
_______________________
SATA
Xs gets +1 base damage and 10% bonus over blau. For my SA/TA sets (mithra with 80+47 dex, 76+38*1.15 from AF) with blau base damage and capped Fstr gives me 170 base D for SA. X's would get +1 for weapon D and +1 for higher Fstr cap.

TA for me is 164 and a variable amount of Fstr as the heca is missing. Basically almost identical to my 170 for SA, but X;s wont hit capped Fstr. So using 170 vs 171.

SA=170 vs 172+10%=189=11% increase.
TA=170 vs 171+10%=188=10.5% increase.

About as expected SA/TA get a smidge over 10% bonus due to base damage and potentially making use of higher Fstr cap.
_______________________________

DoT: is virutally equal (in scenario favoring X's by ignoring Fstr and Wind damage)
SA/TA: gains ~10.5-11% bonus for X's
WS damage: X's 2.6%
TP gain: ~11% in Sirocco's favor.

Apply these to your personal SATA/DOT/WS damage % split. A fairly general split is 40% WS, 20% SATA, 40% DoT.

DOT: X's is AT BEST equal in DoT to B/S in a scenario favoring X's. but once wind damage, Fstr are tallied, It would get the edge easily there.

WS:Blau/Sirocco stomps all over it with 11% higher TP gain rate and looms over the 2.6% more WS damage on individual WS(again favoring X's).

SATA: the saving grace of X's. a solid 10-11% bonus here. But it makes up the smallest section of our total damage and thus is overshadowed by the WS gain by itself, and likely moreso once DOT is considered more realistically favoring Sirocco. And final nail in the coffin is the ability to miss SA/TA in a merit party despite our best efforts. We WILL miss SA/TA on occasion which shoots down X's biggest gain.

Oh and of course Haste helps to kill X's more. It increases DoT and TP gain exponentially while SA/TA are stuck on their timers. Haste favors siroccos strong points and leans damage away from static timed bonuses like SATA/Jumps/Meditate etc. Unless you TP in a Dex build (more crits), terrible Pdif(making crits more powerful), zero haste (favoring SA/TA damage over DPS+WS)and only WS with SATASB once a minute (nulifying TP gain bonus and increasing X's bonus to include WS) Then X's can handily win. But, then your doing it VERY wrong. However, aside from the dex gear, that sounds more like an HNM strat. And has already been said, X's excels at tough mobs.
______________________________________
The end

The trouble is no matter how you spin it, only in the MOST IDEAL circumstances favoring X's (which include sucking with terrible WS gear, low haste TP builds, Not splitting SA/TA/WS, sitting on TP etc) X's can MATCH sirocco.

No one is saying X's is a bad dagger, but the speed of blau/sirocco wins again. It rivals the DPS of any combo we know of and once Fstr and wind damage are in it stomps all over any competing combo DPS. The TP gain is just off the charts and has been the deciding factor in EVERY Blau/Sirocco VS XX/XX combo we have ever run across.

Sure you can argue about how you personally disengage after every mob, Stack SASB and use Evisceration with X's, but your still doingitwrong. Disengaging constantly slows down exp. Using worse WS and stacking unnecisarily still gimps you and your party. Gimping down a playstyle to cater to X's is still worse than maxing damage on Blau/sirocco. Over time, Blau/Sirocco is the highest DoT combo sans relic we have. Period. (once accounting for Wind and Fstr). It gains TP faster than ANY respectable combo. Add those together and Daggers like Pharpe/X's/Azoth just lose out on every front. Better DoT and VERY high TP gain just kills everything.

There is no arguing that. Arguing that we "waste" tp doesnt matter because if you waste tp you waste it on X's/Azoth/Pharpe too. But you still gain it faster with Sirocco. If you avg WS at 110 TP instead of 100 fine. In the time it takes you to gain 1100 TP for 10 WS, Sirocco just did it 11% faster. You wanna save 200TP? OK sirocco will STILL get to 200 faster than anything. TP gain scales no matter how wasteful and inefficient you are. Ignoring the TP gain only says that you hold TP using sirocco and dont hold it using other combos which is retarded.

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 5:44pm by Banalaty
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#82 Feb 16 2009 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you Banalaty. That confirms what I thought earlier. If you want to throw the "wasted tp card" it goes both ways, so I was right. If Blau/sirocco wastes tp then x's/blau will waste the same percentage of it, but because blau/sirocco gets it faster the wasteful tp is irrelevant. I'm not good at examples like you guys are but would the example that with 11% faster tp gain then be accurate to say that in the time blau/sirocco gets 11,000 tp x's/blau will get 10,000. So if you weaponskill at 200% every time then blau/sirocco still gets 11% more ws/hr? Instead of 110 versus 100 weaponskills then do 55 and 50?
#83 Feb 16 2009 at 3:46 PM Rating: Default
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From now on I'm just throwing all DoT calculations out the window. Math can be used to prove which SA gearset is better than the other, but I still think it can't be used to tell us what setup gives the better DoT. Especially when you try to factor in things like crit rate, solo SA usage, solo TA usage, WS usage, SAWS usage, TAWS usage, etc. Even percentages can go astray with DoT, the more you fight with tp>100 the more X/blau pulls ahead of Blau/Sirocco because the 7damage 16 attack 5 acc loss hurts blau/sirocco more than X/blau and that's just an example of something you can't factor in.
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#84 Feb 16 2009 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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So what would you suggest we do? Just ignore that whole section of our damage when comparing? X's has more SA/TA/WS spikes and we cant figure DoT so we just ignore it and declare X's the winner hands down?

The thing is the averages DO come out over time, just like TP. Sure we can quible about how much tp we sit on due to lazyness, negligence, avoiding overkill etc, but that doesnt change the fact that sirocco gains TP faster and even with all those factors you will WS more frequently with sirocco than with any slower combo.

Quantifying the EXACT amount may change based on your attentiveness etc, but the overall trend is that Sirocco will gain TP faster and if you have more TP, you will use more TP.

By the same token DoT fits the same way. Once you establish a baseline for a comparison and note how factors affect it up or down, you can make intelligent decisions about when to use what. For example, things that benefit X's:

*Low pdif (makes crits a larger % of your damage)
*high crit rate....duh
*less haste (more focus on SA+TA and haste helps B/S more in TP)
*Stacked SB and MStab get a better bonus than DE with X's

So knowing that both combos are at least in the same ball park, you can look at your situation.

Example, Fighting genbu and your lolThf so you dont get a brd. You wear more acc/atk gear less haste gear, and eat meat. You have low Pdif, low haste and the only WS your gonna use is SB or mandalic stab and SA+TA will be a HUGE portion of your damage.

I wonder whats better....

Alternatively your Meriting in a Brd/Cor party getting Drk buffed Choas, Double March, Haste, and Wars roll eating kabobs with homam induced haste build. Birds getting DiaII-ed and angoned out the wazoo. Crits are less helpful at high pdif, haste lowers the % of damage SA/TA will be, DE will be the WS of choice, you are likely to miss many of your SA/TA, TP gain will be off the charts, etc

I wonder which combos strength this plays to......

The fact is that the more buffed you are and the weaker your enemies are, the stronger blau/sirocco is compared to ANY combo. As you become relatively weaker to your foe through mob stats going up, your buffs going down, your gear being sub par etc the better other daggers catch up. Azoth excels at low acc situations. Pharpe and to a lesser degree azoth and X's base damage helps on tougher mobs. X's crit bonus helps when SA/TA/SB/Man stab make up the majority of your damage. This only happens when pdif is very low like HNMs where DE falls behind the 1 hit WS. At the same time crits become more valuable making X's king of the HNM scene.

But theres no reason to dismiss things like DPS and TP gain on merit level and below as those situations cater to Blau/Sirocco's greatest strength. X's is a great dagger, but its not the BEST for the average decent merit party.
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Edit the original poitn i forgot about:

Quote:
Even percentages can go astray with DoT, the more you fight with tp>100 the more X/blau pulls ahead of Blau/Sirocco because the 7damage 16 attack 5 acc loss hurts blau/sirocco more than X/blau and that's just an example of something you can't factor in.


The trouble with that is the right answer isnt changing daggers to accomodate for your sitting on TP, the solution is to up your game not get a dagger that supports a lower level of play. Strive to use TP more efficiently, not get a dagger that hurts less when wasting TP. Or as I previously said:

Quote:
Gimping down a playstyle to cater to X's is still worse than maxing damage on Blau/sirocco.


We are talking about ways to maximize Thf damage potential. If we want to max damage (in a merit party) Blau/sirocco will give us the highest potential damage. It is then our job as players to meet that potential. Id rather work at upping my game to match siroccos potential than dumb down my gear to accomodate for more lazy fighting.

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 7:59pm by Banalaty
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#85 Feb 16 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Thorny;2516695 wrote:
The argument has nothing to do with deliberately saving 200 tp, deliberately disengaging after mobs, etc.. it's that you end up with more tp over 100 with blau/sirocco than x's/blau and that you WILL be forced to disengage quite frequently while waiting for mobs unless your party is so bad it can't even kill as fast as mob repops. During this time, you get no melee damage but your timers still cool down(and a good thief will still use them when they're up and line up before engaging the next mob, adding a bit more delay). That said, in a hypothetical exp party slow enough to have continuous pulls where you don't ever disengage, blau/sirocco is slightly better. In any higher level mob situation or a real party that runs out of mobs, takes breaks, etc, X's/Blau will win.


#86 Feb 16 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you want to post in this thread fine, but not this middle man BS. If you want to engage in discussion join the conversation instead of providing commentary as the peanut gallery on another site.

That said, If your killing faster than repops, you should be plenty strong enough to kill wivres and **** without loosing chain if your all that **** leet. However even if you dont that means your party has a high level of haste/atk buffs. That means that your DoT from daggers is going to be VERY high and skew the ENTIRE parse towards your melee and WS numbers.

SA/TA are still once a minute and get less relative bonus from atk buffs and haste does zip for them. Thus higher haste/atk setups (brds/cors/diaII/Angon blah blah) all increase the % of damage done by DoT. Your example is a catch 22.

If your party is clearing mobs you get a little free time to let timers cool, thus letting you get a greater ratio (though small in the grand scheme of overall damage) of SA/TA than you would if you were constantly meleeing.

HOWEVER, to clear all mobs and have significant wait time between mobs means you are beating the bejesus outta them with high levells of haste/pdif so your melee DPS will loom over your SA/TA damage like a mountain. The more buffed you are, the more of your total damage comes from melee DoT. The more haste you have, the more TP you get. Since SA/TA are just big fat criticals on timers, adding atk does less.

1.0 pdif with 100 base damage SA adds another 1.0 so 100damage*2.0=200
2.0 pdif with 100 base damage SA adds another 1.0 so 100damage*3.0=300.

But melee DoT raised from 1.0 to 2.0 base pdif DOUBLES your DOT while as you can see for SA/TA it only getts a 50% increase. Add the fact that haste means you squeeze more normal swings, thus more DoT/TP and WS inbetween those static timers.

Super buff parties makes your SA/TA the smallest part of your overall damage. Taking buff parties and trying to twist it into aiding X's just doesnt work. X's excels when you are relatively weaker than your opponent due to the way crits function.
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Quote:
it's that you end up with more tp over 100 with blau/sirocco than x's/blau


hmm

Quote:
The argument has nothing to do with deliberately saving 200 tp, deliberately disengaging after mobs, etc..


So how exactly is it that you sit on more TP with Blau/sirocco than X's blau unless you ARE holding more TP. The speed you gain TP should have EXTREMELY minimal impact on how much over 100 you go. Your statement makes no logical sense. The only way you will have more TP with sirocco is if you

A: hold TP to stack SATA with WS. (Thus making TP gain speed irrelevant as you are going to easily have 100+TP within a minute) Yourdoingitwrong.

If you are doing it every 25-30 sec aternating SAWS and TAWS (depending on SATA merits) then the increased TP gain from sirocco is a boon, not disadvantage as it helps you reach that goal more easily. But that doesnt change the fact that Splitting SA/TA/WS is more efficient unless TP and SA happen to line up. In that case increased TP gain still an advantage and you would be just as likely to "waste" it on either setup.

B: You are intentionally holding TP. Again playing poorly to improve X's standing is retarded.

C: Your holding TP to SC. For merit parties still wrong answer.

The only reason you would hold TP more on sirocco is if you are waiting to use TP for something whether that be JA timers, Peoples TP, or something else so that after reaching a certain level of TP speed, excess becomes pointless. But as soon as you start to unstack and not SC (ie the way burns are better played) then holding TP has no place aside from overkilling a mob which both daggers run into. There is no argument as to why sirocco would be more likely to overkill than X's. In fact the slightly stronger damage WS provided by X's makes X's MORE likely to overkill.
___________________________

Now please either join the thread or keep your incorrect commentery to yourself. Your points have little force behind them other than "you said so." It doesnt fly in an honest attempt to discern what combinations of 1s and 0s provide bigger numbers in a game created, and run, on a computer with very specific formula that determine exactly how every point of damage is calculated. Peoples belief in an item, but not supported by anything other than sentimental attachment of "value" to something rare like X's, does nothing to make it hurt merit mobs better.

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 9:35pm by Banalaty
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#87 Feb 16 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
If you want to post in this thread fine, but not this middle man BS. If you want to engage in discussion join the conversation instead of providing commentary as the peanut gallery on another site.


It's an interesting read for me. If you don't like the way I post, then simply ignore than and don't reply. I don't force you to respond.
#88 Feb 17 2009 at 3:34 AM Rating: Good
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I think people are getting a little carried away lol, just because blau/sirocco wins on merit mobs or below doesn't mean x's is useless...

And while I do agree that the damage formulas are known and you can approximate anything with them, there are variables that you can't account for, so any attempts to calculate which is "best" are, at most, an estimate.

Also, pardon my possible newbitry, and I don't mean to attack the OP, just point out something that bothered me:

OP wrote:
but for this discussion I'll give a low number to further prove the discussion at hand


Isn't lowballing the WS damage working in favor of Blau/Sirocco, since X's depends more on the WS damage than blau/sirocco?

And why only 25% haste? A homam thf with swift belt, w turban, and homam hands/legs/feet (if they're lucky, body! but no haste there) is sitting on 18%, 33% with spell, and that's assuming no brd. Even with 0 homam, dusk hands+feet+w turban+swift is still 14%, 29% with spell. Wouldn't that help blau/sirocco more?

And how would blau/sirocco fair against x's/blau on say, a kited kirin, or dark ixion, or JoL, or Nidhogg, or Odin? etc.

It's not super important to me one way or another since I'm not even thf, but this interests me since I do static this with some friends to get them x's and would love not to have to >.> I just find it hard to believe that it is as bad as people in this thread are making it sound.
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#89 Feb 17 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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It isn't bad at all. Especially on several of the events you mentioned:
Kited mobs or things like Kirin, though, personally, I'd think it's better to just go /WAR or /DRK, then the combo is moot. You'd wear X's because the WS damage will be higher with SA or TA.

Drexis wrote:
Isn't lowballing the WS damage working in favor of Blau/Sirocco, since X's depends more on the WS damage than blau/sirocco?

No, because the Blau/Skukri shines mostly in TP gain, whereas X's shines in higher base damage and crit bonuses. It depends on playstyle, but I separate my WS from SATA and use DE. That makes the crit bonus useless. 5 of the 6 hits will only be from mainhand, so it comes down to X's having +1 base damage and +1 fSTR cap on WS vs Blau. Since blau makes more tp, changes in WS damage affect it's output more than X's in the fight, if you play like me.

Like others said, if you stack most of WS, don't use DE but EV or Mandalic Stab or something of the sort, and have a great party where you can land every SA and TA(I haven't had one yet) then X's can definitely take the lead. For me anyway, I doubt that type of circumstances will be readily available anytime soon.
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#90 Feb 17 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

OP wrote:
but for this discussion I'll give a low number to further prove the discussion at hand


Isn't lowballing the WS damage working in favor of Blau/Sirocco, since X's depends more on the WS damage than blau/sirocco?




Lowballing the WS damage in merit is favoring the x's. Remember, it was the sheer volume of weaponskills that favored the blau/sirocco. If you made each dancing edge stronger, it thus makes blau/sirocco stronger. As a hypothetical example, if each dancing edge averaged to 4,000 damage and I had the same ratio of them versus 500 damage with the same ratio, giving blau/sirocco 9-10 more 4000 damage shots versus 9-10 more 500 damage weaponskills makes this trend easy to see why increasing weaponskill damage favors the blau/sirocco.

I have a very powerful DE set, and like Souji above me I usually solo DE if timers are too far away. Remember, if I weaponskill at 150% tp because I waited 10 seconds for a timer, I wasted half of a dancing edge (which is considerably more potent than the difference of stacking would have given me). Furthermore, the blau dolch becomes sh*t after 100% tp, so with no latent accuracy/attack and base damage 26 holding tp for that long will be bad in the long run. Consider that I have an extremely powerful DE set and you see why I use my tp quickly. I went to great lengths to make sure my solo SA and solo TA sets are as powerful as they can be to accomodate this playstyle. My sa set has + 55 dex, my ta set has + 47 agility and adds my artifact hands +1, each have a higher attack than normal melee. Denali jacket in TA, my signed dragon harness +1 in SA, charger mantle, breeze rings, scouter's rope, agile gorget, genin/drone earring.. these are examples of a few things I carry that have no purpose other than to enhance my solo abilities, and it matters. By maximizing my solo criticals and not wasting tp my playstyle favors blau/sirocco in a huge way, as Banalaty said "up your game rather than gear to accomodate a lazy playstyle". I'm extremely aggressive at merit level and below, and it doesn't go unnoticed when others see the numbers I put out.


Quote:
And why only 25% haste? A homam thf with swift belt, w turban, and homam hands/legs/feet (if they're lucky, body! but no haste there) is sitting on 18%, 33% with spell, and that's assuming no brd. Even with 0 homam, dusk hands+feet+w turban+swift is still 14%, 29% with spell. Wouldn't that help blau/sirocco more?


I used only 25% because it exemplified the trend better. As you saw, the more haste you get the more powerful the blau/sirocco combo became. If you take a realistic scenario such as yours and add 33%++ haste, or even nearing 50% with march and magic haste, you will see the trend quantify further in favor of the blau/sirocco. The more haste you add, the more blau/sirocco leads, and because in my OP 25% was more than it took to put blau/sirocco ahead giving added gains would only widen the gap.

Quote:
I think people are getting a little carried away lol, just because blau/sirocco wins on merit mobs or below doesn't mean x's is useless...


Where in my posts did I EVER say X's is USELESS? I have noted more than once that if you are fighting gods the x's will outperform the sirocco. On Gods if you sub /war you have no offhand, and as /nin you won't have berserk, either way it's a no brainer that x's will win here. Since shark bite and mandalic stab focus their greatest might into the first hit critical and melee DoT becomes mostly irrelevant and evisceration can crit naturally. X's is clearly the dagger for Gods. I also mentioned the kited scenario of kirin too, IE when I said if you deploy the SA and TA ONRY strategy. In truth you will still weaponskill by doing this, but it won't be dancing edge so again.... duh. X's ftw.

At no point in time would I ever discredit X's on stronger targets, I don't think anybody can. My op comparison was aimed towards targets closer to my level, and in the case of merit and below, blau/sirocco is better. This is the whole "sh*t is situational" line again, it's been played to death but it's still true. If you want to wear x's/blau fulltime everywhere you go that's fine, but it's not the optimal choice in ALL scenarios, just like blau/sirocco is not the optimal choice in ALL scenarios. My OP was aimed to show the difference and show that blau/sirocco CAN outperform x's/blau sometimes, when others would have said it could never win no matter what. It's up to each individual thief to use their brain and take the information and go from there. You don't have to accept it, but it doesn't make the numbers any less true.

The reason I said x's isn't worth my time to get is because I retired myself from gods. If I was doing gods then yes, of course I'd want to try and get x's (and I would). I got everything there is to get in sea, sky, and HNM. There are no events left that even HAVE gear for me that aren't tp burn. I can get my N legs in einherjar (I gave up kings, so thats where it'll be). Skadi is salvage + assault, so /nin with blau/TK + relic hands and blau/sirocco respectively (or blau/M kris if you want the mob to have tp, like azure ailments/imperial agent rescue or for stuff like blitzkrieg where cyclone is actually useful O.o) . My homam feet I have a close friend in a shell who will just sell them to me, so that's just patience. Other than that I have it all. I only have one job at 75, and that's my thief, and I don't want to level another. I hate level grinding and I'd rather just craft and play as I do. I work fulltime now and my playtime is more limited than it used to be. Because of that I have no need for x's. If I did, I'd try and get one.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 11:39am by Melphina
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#91 Feb 17 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So what would you suggest we do? Just ignore that whole section of our damage when comparing? X's has more SA/TA/WS spikes and we cant figure DoT so we just ignore it and declare X's the winner hands down?


More like ignore everything and not declare a winner at all since doing calculations based on assumptions(play style, maximum realistic performance, etc) is silly. Sure if we use pure math then blau/sirocco has the highest potential on lolibri, but it is theoretically impossible to hit that potential. It's not a matter of bettering yourself to meet that potential, it's a matter of factoring in human error and the other members of your party; something that math just can't do. There's never been a way to determine a winner in a DoT race when you had to factor in other things besides pure DoT. If you're comparing DoT to DoT you're fine, if you're comparing SA to SA you're fine, it's when you try to combine comparing DOT+SA+WS to DOT+SA+WS then everything becomes screwy.
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#92 Feb 18 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I think Deadguy is pretty spot-on to be defaulted. Math on paper only takes you so far...... There's no such thing as mathematics without mathematical error.
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#93 Feb 18 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Here's my objection:

If you are going to take the position of "math can't account for human error," then you'd better not point at math to try to win future points.

It's kind of disingenuous to loyally rely on math right up until the point that it says something that you don't like.
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#94 Feb 18 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Shamanfoxl wrote:
I think Deadguy is pretty spot-on to be defaulted. Math on paper only takes you so far...... There's no such thing as mathematics without mathematical error.


I'd argue that. Pure mathematics actually has no error - it's only once you introduce data that error has to be accounted for, since now you're taking sets of values over isolated ones. As such, mathematics should be (and are) more accurate than a parser ever will. Especially since the math is what's running the game, not the parser.

I will however concede that while the formulas for isolated comparisons (WS v WS, DoT v DoT, SA v SA, etc) are very well known, meshing all of them to compare "Total setup 1 v Total setup 2" becomes very difficult. Assumptions are required that may or may not be true or relevant; it's hard to figure those assumptions out, too.

Do we assume all WSs are unstacked? Some are bound to not be. Do we do the opposite? Well, then you're "doing it wrong". Do we assume a 50% land rate on SA/TA - is that logical? Do we take our normally parsed damage to determine are ratios of damage and then use that as a divider to determine one setup verse another - what if that other setup changes those dividers (as I'm sure X's will)?

Granted, some of those probably sound silly, but there is a lot of uncharted ground when it comes to comparing one setup verse another and trying to simulate a real environment. I don't see anything wrong with trying to compare two setups on paper - we've always done it before, and it's usually very accurate. The only reason the comparison becomes messy is because it seems that people who aren't happy with the paper results want to play the "real environment" card, which does muck everything up.

Quite honestly, I see that as a very cheesy way to try to bolster an argument when the standards of determining "optimal performance" on paper were already well accepted.
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#95 Feb 18 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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redvenomweb wrote:
Here's my objection:

If you are going to take the position of "math can't account for human error," then you'd better not point at math to try to win future points.

It's kind of disingenuous to loyally rely on math right up until the point that it says something that you don't like.


As chanchan has said above me, and I have said before, I try not to do math like this because it doesn't work. When I use math to compare X's knife to Blau dolch on SA damage, it works. When I use math to compare X's knife to Blau dolch on TA damage, it works. When Banalaty uses math to compare the TP gain of X's to Blau it works. When I did the math to find out how much faster blau/sirocco /nin gains tp than blau /war, it worked.

Those are all singular comparisons. They are all perfectly acceptable. It's when you start to compare two or more things at once by attempting to stick them into a realistic example of overall DoT that things get screwy. I apparently forgot this when I attempted to do the math at the top of this page. I knew there was a reason I was avoiding this thread for a while, but I guess I eventually forgot what it was.

What we can do is the math to see how much X's outdamages Blau on SA in multiple conditions, the same for TA, the same for DoT%, the same for TP gain%, the same for SAWS, the same for TAWS, the same for soloWS, multiple conditions for everything and we can see what does better in what. What we cannot do is try to combine all these situations hypothetically to determine who the overall winner is. Something like that would require a lot of work, not something easily done like when I tested if homam corazza was actually broken.
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#96 Feb 19 2009 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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What about Mandau/X's?

Remember that Mercy Stroke's after effect is an increased rate of critical hits. Not to mention increasing SA/TA + Mercy Stroke directly.

Edited, Feb 19th 2009 5:32am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#97 Feb 19 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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(double post)

Edited, Feb 20th 2009 1:23am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#98 Feb 19 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:

Where in my posts did I EVER say X's is USELESS?

You didn't, and I didn't mean to imply you did. I could have sworn I saw some people in here saying things like "well I'm glad I never bothered to go after it now" or whatever and was a little alarmed that they were getting the wrong idea. I looked again and now I don't see 'em, so maybe I'm thinking of another thread or something.

Anyway, nice work. I never even really noticed that the delay was higher on X's than most daggers, but like I said I'm not a thf. Unfortunately my buddy does quite a few different big baddies so I don't think he'll really be turned off :(

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#99 Feb 20 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
_____________________________
TP
Blau/Sirocco is 4.7TP for 131.2 delay (9.4 for 262.4)
X's/Blau is 4.9tp for 151.6 delay(9.8 for 303.2)
*with Suppa/Rajas/Brutal


B/S=2.15tp/sec
X/B=1.94tp/sec

Blau/Sirocco gains TP 11% faster than X's/Blau. If you WS exactly at 100tp, 110tp, 200tp, or 270tp it doesnt matter. You will get to that TP value on average 11% faster. So regardless of your personal playstyle, you will still get to WS 11% more often.

There is no question of "well wasted TP isnt accounted for" etc because the combo itself gains TP ~11% faster. Therefore over ANY stretch of time, you will ultimately gain 11% more TP for you to use however you want. So long as you use the same playstyle regarding TP with either combo Sirocco will WS 11% more over time. Unless you intentionally hold TP with Sirocco and let loose with X's which would be an unfair comparison anyway.
_________________________


This is a farce, no one has been calculating the TP correctly in this thread.

I think we can all agree on 9.4 and 9.8 per round. Good.

I'd hope we can all agree if you're using DE you should add about 4 tp onto the first towards the next WS.

So after 10 rounds (assuming they all land, no extra attacks):
X/B: 98 tp
B/S: 94 tp.

Remember that 4 tp?
XB: 102 BS: 98

Lets go 1 more round:
XB: 13.8 BS: 107.4

Fact: XB takes 10 successful rounds to get 102 tp. BS takes 11 successful founds to get 108 tp. XB uses tp more effiently. (this does not mean it gains tp faster or is the better combo, but it does mean the numbers are closer than anyone here (seems) to think).
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FFIX Melee Damage Comparitor
Brimstone
#100 Feb 20 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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1,274 posts
Ok using the gear and numbers and food and haste against level 81 colibri as Mel did in her post above. I ran the numbers through my spread sheet, the numbers started off the same, I do not agree with how you are calculating the TP as already stated so that seems to be primary source of the differences, I did not look in too much detail because its late. It only takes me a few seconds to run extra combos now, I'll probably post the whole sheet on Monday, I want to add some more gear and play with it a bit first (I tend to find mistakes this way).

All these numbers assume 1.3 pDIF mod for X's crits and 8/dmg average wind for sirocco. Mandau extra effects (triple dmg, poison, crit rates) are ignored.
 
Totals:	AgHit	#Hits	#WS	AgWS	TotJA	TotMel	JAWSTot	WSTot	Total DMG 
X/Blau	107	906	100	464	59520	96942	0	46400	202862 
Blau/S	99	1066	106	450	49260	105534	0	47700	202494 
X/Sirc	100	957	106	415	55380	95700	0	43990	195070 
Man/X	118	882	98	489	61980	104076	0	47922	213978 
Man/Bl	119	978	108	535	55500	116382	0	57780	229662 

16% crits (calc./dex-agi diff)
SA/TA split
I think I just had 1 Triple Attack merit in by default.

Using better ws gear (and the right one) will probably change some of the results, don't feel like running it now.

Edited, Feb 21st 2009 1:27am by BrimstoneFox
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FFIX Melee Damage Comparitor
Brimstone
#101 Feb 20 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
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656 posts
finally got to the bottom of this thread but thx so much Melphina for some good info. Now i'm less sad about losing 1/2 of my static on getting this knife (although i;ll still try, just not as gung-ho for something that wasn't as good as being the 'no relic combo' i had hoped for)

I currently have a blau and a sirocco offhand and now im glad that im doing it right for the most part (read the part about situational use for X's... SB and stuff XD)

thanks again for all the hard work and keep it up :D
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Angina wrote:
The last thing I consider myself in this game is a TH-whore, period. I'd rather solo 30,000xp than be invited to an XP because TH2 was cool to have around. I've spent far too much time doing my best to become adept at playing/gearing THF only to be pigeon-holed by a passive trait that's often used as a scapegoat when random luck screws other players out of what they think the game owes them. :/
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