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(by request) X's/blau versus blau/sirocco comparisonFollow

#27 Feb 13 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, just on a whim I put in X/Blau vs. Azoth Blau in my DoT calculator and it came out with X/Blau up ~350ish damage after an hour and Azoth/Blau with 1 extra WS. Hmmm..... Seems the comparison that should be made is which setup comes in second..... lol
#28 Feb 13 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I found my mistake in my spreadsheet, I was using total delay to calculate TP, not delay/2, so I inadvertently nerfed the blau/sirocco tp gain by a bit more than the X's. After fixing it the blau/sirocco is a more sound winner:

Total DMG
165122 (122 ws X's)
167879 (127 ws sirocco)


Still you can't just add up the tp gain, and divide it out to find # of ws), this only half the advantage mel originally calculated.

Why? X's gives more tp return on ws and requires 1 less attack round to ws from (10 instead of 11) and uses 102 TP to ws in instead of 108. So you 'waste' more tp with blau/sirocco. Obivously, it doesn't change the outcome with the variables given, but it should not be discounted.

I will fix the spreadsheet and update it soon I hope.
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#29 Feb 13 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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Since more often then not, I am WSing between 105-115 tp on any setup due to double/triple procs, I just took out 15% of TP gained to find the difference of WSs. It seems to represent an accuracte depiction of wasted TP, probably slightly more to the high side, from the parses that I have started doing. Even so, Blau/SK gets significantly more WSs than X/Blau.

TP gain on WS really doesn't make much of a difference in the setup, unless you have Skadi/Enkidu's/Cobra Legs. Then you will start seeing 15% TP returns on WS, and start shaving hits to 100. However, you still have to deal with not hitting 5/5 on the WS.
#30 Feb 13 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Just curious, how does x's/sk stack up?

I know missing the Blau's latents will hurt, but just curious as to the numbers of this combo.
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#31 Feb 13 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Lol, I just put that in to my DoT calculator, and for straight DoT X/SK looses to Blau/SK by over 10k+ damage and 800+ tp in an hour.
#32 Feb 13 2009 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Lol, I just put that in to my DoT calculator, and for straight DoT X/SK looses to Blau/SK by over 10k+ damage and 800+ tp in an hour.


Without even running numbers I can say with a certainty this is accurate. The x's has (considerably) higher delay than blau and only one more base damage. It also has no boost to 16 attack and 5 accuracy. Compared to anything posted above, x's/sirocco is a joke and a half. That combo may sound good, but it really, really, REALLY isn't. Trust me on that, it's a horrible choice.


Shamanfoxl wrote in the post below mine

Quote:
Only because Blau is just that **** good.


Nuff said.

Blau -- 178 delay (very low) , 5 accuracy 16 attack (yup yup)
Sirocco -- wind proc with 150 delay (extremely low, lowest in the game)

combined good damage and insane tp gain. That's the reason blau/sirocco is so powerful. it's insanely potent, and it just screams potential like nothing else.

Edited, Feb 13th 2009 1:42pm by Melphina
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#33 Feb 13 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Only because Blau is just that **** good.
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#34 Feb 13 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Heywood wrote:
Just curious, how does x's/sk stack up?

I know missing the Blau's latents will hurt, but just curious as to the numbers of this combo.
Blau's low delay is another attraction outside of its latent effects. Blau/sirocco is going to pull ahead of X's/sirocco, I don't have the math so take this with a grain of salt.
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#35 Feb 13 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for this melph. I have been tossing this idea around in my head since the Azoth/Blau vs. Blau/SK. I kinda hinted at being a non-believer in X's towards the end. Like you said, I was way to afraid to pull that one out fearing the mob.


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#36 Feb 13 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aluve wrote:
For the record, when Melphina makes one of these disgustingly useful number-crunching posts (in particular those that goes sacred-cow tipping, like the above), shouldn't it be stickied in the useful forum links thinger?

Totally agree with this as well. There should be a sticky created with all of the great math posts and useful insights of Alla's primary Thf posters that have solid knowledge.

I'm very happy about this post as well because LS thieves have been talking about starting to static X's bcnms and I really thought about it and to do it for more then 1 just seems like even more of a pain then it already is.

I have a Sirocco waiting patiently in my Mog Locker for when i hit 69 (68 currently) and I relish what awaits for me at 72.
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#37 Feb 13 2009 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Kreutzeuit is much easier to camp, seriously it is. Getting a party that can actually KILL the three mithran trackers (and can even ENTER the fight with CoP beaten and the pre req done..... and also would NOT want to lot it themselves) versus a few high levels friends to run out to cape terrigan when the weather taru says it will be windy... that's no comparison at all. Furthermore the sirocco has a GOOD drop rate (yes, 33% is good, many are 1/1), the choice in my mind is clear as a bell as to which combo is better, and the better one is easier to get to boot.


Only thing I know enough about to disagree with. That's too general a statement to make. I have X's because I can round up 3 other blm for 20 minutes once a week. Getting help and finding time to camp Kreutzet is another matter. If you have a lot of unscheduled playtime, that's a different matter, but I mostly get on for specific events and log when they are done. Getting the letter is a no brainer if you and your friends use Tav ring in lieu of a warp stick like many people do. The fight itself is a short joke with black mages, so you're just factoring in tele and run time. The trick, of course, is getting people to do it over and over, so either you are counting on friends who can be convinced 20 minutes a week is not asking for much or who can be told that expensive crafting items might drop that they can lot. The first plan is much more adviseable since they will quickly realize that nothing good drops from Requiem. Ever. No matter what anyone else says or what screenshots they have. It's all lies.
#38 Feb 13 2009 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Hardest part of Kreutzet is getting TOD, rest is cake.

Edited, Feb 13th 2009 8:44pm by Zelphan
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#39 Feb 13 2009 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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iheartninja wrote:
Only thing I know enough about to disagree with. That's too general a statement to make. I have X's because I can round up 3 other blm for 20 minutes once a week. Getting help and finding time to camp Kreutzet is another matter. If you have a lot of unscheduled playtime, that's a different matter, but I mostly get on for specific events and log when they are done. Getting the letter is a no brainer if you and your friends use Tav ring in lieu of a warp stick like many people do. The fight itself is a short joke with black mages, so you're just factoring in tele and run time. The trick, of course, is getting people to do it over and over, so either you are counting on friends who can be convinced 20 minutes a week is not asking for much or who can be told that expensive crafting items might drop that they can lot. The first plan is much more adviseable since they will quickly realize that nothing good drops from Requiem. Ever. No matter what anyone else says or what screenshots they have. It's all lies.
It's also that the weather NPC being not completely reliable, because wind weather can happen even if it said otherwise.
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...draining with sambas is kind of like you smack the thing and as you smack blood flies out... normally the blood would just you know fall and be red an what-not, but, with the samba your all whacked out and decide to drink the blood as it flys out. thus not adding MORE damage just taking more advantage of your damage. at least thats my take on it.
#40 Feb 13 2009 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
Now all this begs the question of whether or not Mandau/X's is as good as Mandau/blau. I have a hunch it isn't based on some of the maths and theory put forth here, but I wonder if the SA/TA MS getting an ostensible 10% boost from the crit enhancer might make things interesting.

I am no math guru however, I only read and blindly follow, so please O great math gods, Crunch for the good of THFkind!
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#41 Feb 13 2009 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I just went 1/1 on X's.. 5ls members 1random, 1ls member not lotting. Random wins with a 921. :/
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#42 Feb 13 2009 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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If you're planning on going after X's still, I'd advise forming a static of friends (smaller/ less people after knives the better.) In light of the new info posted here, you may not have a need to bother. I originally wanted one to pair with a Mandau eventually, but maybe Mandau/blau is better? I don't have the math inclination to figure that one out.

In any case though, I'll still be using X's/blau for now, considering they're comparable to each other. And X's has style points. You can't parse that.
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#43 Feb 13 2009 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfhart wrote:
If you're planning on going after X's still, I'd advise forming a static of friends (smaller/ less people after knives the better.) In light of the new info posted here, you may not have a need to bother. I originally wanted one to pair with a Mandau eventually, but maybe Mandau/blau is better? I don't have the math inclination to figure that one out.

In any case though, I'll still be using X's/blau for now, considering they're comparable to each other. And X's has style points. You can't parse that.


Still can't believe we all went 1/1, only to have it go to the only person we didn't want it to go it. :/
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#44 Feb 13 2009 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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I've gotten several requests both by direct posts on this thread and pm's to do a Mandau/x's versus Mandau/blau combo comparison. I will try my hand at this, but the calculations will not be as simple because of the way the combos factor in. I have a strong hunch Mandau/blau will come out on top, but due to the requirement of accuracy and attack considerations, in addition to the above It will take a bit longer. My OP here took me a few hours to consider all the factors that must be taken into account, and putting them together plus organizing and editing it for readability (I edited out typos and grammer mishaps and potential math inconsistencies like 40-50 times, with a few re-reads).

I actually do have a life outside ffxi too, (and I like to play the game as well). I'll make this a project on my next day off, that being this Monday. I'll see if I can put together something useful for you guys during my free time then.

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 12:43am by Melphina
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#45 Feb 13 2009 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
I've gotten several requests both by direct posts on this thread and pm's to do a Mandau/x's versus Mandau/blau combo comparison. I will try my hand at this, but the calculations will not be as simple because of the way the combos factor in. I have a strong hunch Mandau/blau will come out on top, but due to the requirement of accuracy and attack considerations, in addition to the above It will take a bit longer. My OP here took me a few hours to consider all the factors that must be taken into account, and putting them together plus organizing and editing it for readability (I edited out typos and grammer mishaps and potential math inconsistencies like 40-50 times, with a few re-reads).

I actually do have a life outside ffxi too, (and I like to play the game as well). I'll make this a project on my next day off, that being this Monday. I'll see if I can put together something useful for you guys during my free time then.

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 12:43am by Melphina


latent on blau alone makes mandau/blau win, there's no comparison. your offhand is best augmenting the already amazing mandau, not trying to compete with it. x's slows you down, and that's it. i'd be shocked if any detailed comparison goes against this...

edit: posted that under the impression it wouldn't affect mandau crits, but the situation is the same. mandau has a bunch of ATT--mitigating crit--and does considerable melee DoT (most of which is guaranteed to not be crits).

1 base dmg and 10% (or whatever) crit damage is not going to beat 5ACC, 16ATT, and the small delay difference. i guess it's a bit interesting, but i can't see how X's would win.

further edit: though, if i'm way off, if you read and understand the OP, you should be able to work out the essential thing dictating the winner of the comparison, and then roughly decide mandau/blau vs mandau/x's (or mandau/x, for a sort of pun).

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 12:56am by milich
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#46 Feb 13 2009 at 10:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm in agreement with Milich honestly, but people wanted the comparison. The biggie factors have been set. the blau dolch is an unbelievable weapon. It adds 5 accuracy, which is 2.5% hitrate on melee DoT. It adds 16 attack, which is approximately 2-4% pDIF in most normal scenarios, and this applies to EVERY hit. Furthermore, when used in mercy stroke the x's only applies the 10% bonus to the FIRST hit, whereas mandau/blau gets that 16 attack bonus on EVERY hit, so the offahand and any/all multi procs recieve this bonus, further lessening the crit damage differential.

The Mandau/blau DoT is a MONSTROSITY that almost none of the other combos in the entire GAME can match. In addition to this the faster tp gain of /blau 178 delay versus /x's 201 delay (and the 2.5% accuracy to build tp with which in and of itself is a significant TP source) coupled with mercy stroke in and of itself being behemoth of a weaponskill, adding more of these massive titans is almost surely going to favor the blau (seriously if you weaponskill only 3-4 times more that in and of itself is gargantuan when Mercy Stroke is just... well, MERCY STROKE O.O). It's really, really, REALLY hard to picture the Mandau/x's being capable of besting the Mandau/blau. When I post the results I don't intend to do the long math, I'm going to summarise what I did and the results. I'll post the raw data for the other math connoisseurs to recreate themselves if they choose. The post will be a summary in and of itself, but I will make it anyhow since I like this stuff and it's always fun seeing just how big a difference these setups really are.

Btw Milich, I'm (pleasantly) surprised you didn't find anything to pick apart about this OP. In the past I had minor inconsistencies that needed addressing and thanks to your and others help I was able to fine tune my understanding of the smaller portions of the formula. Thanks for that (seriously). I think I've gotten a lot better at this stuff and if meldi and you can both agree with my final verdict with a good degree of certainty that supports it.

Kitty is pleased =^..^=

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 1:44am by Melphina
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#47 Feb 14 2009 at 4:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Good lord, this is all very hard to take. I've grown so fond of my X's Knife, and went through so much to get it, that shelving it seems wrong. I do have Sirocco Kukri lying around though, so it isn't like I'd have to go camp it, but...arrrrrrrrrrrgh. Giving up about 130-140 from critical hits a minute, losing the benefit of a level of fSTR on birds for my weapon skill gear, and weaker Eviscerations. And on top of that I have to hear that constant wind sound again. Bleh.

Although there is something to be said about what buffs you're getting, I think. Most people think Rogue's Roll when they think X's Knife, but Samurai Roll is another, and much more common, buff that will help the X's Knife/Blau Dolch more than it would the Blau Dolch/Sirocco Kukri.

If nothing else, I will continue to use X's Knife in spike damage situations. For Shark Bite and Mandalic Stab, it's akin to getting two merits of Overwhelm (okay, so like 1.8 for Shark Bite), and for Darkness closing it's kind of a no-brainer. It'll also continue to be my zerg piece of choice, because otherwise I have no excuse to ever break out my Hydra Tiara.

Oh, and on the whole Mandau debate, has the critical rate increase from Mercy Stroke's aftermath ever been pinned down? I remember hearing it wasn't a whole lot but I'd imagine it could make a difference in that debate.
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#48 Feb 14 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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The numbers do not lie dawdr. Guestimating 130-140 damage per minute on criticals (even if it is accurate) is still a tradeoff that is not in favor of the x's/blau. In addition, evisceration is not as strong as dancing edge, even with x's. As you could see 10% damage increase whenever a hit does critical is not THAT significant an increase in the overall damage. Again I reiterate the fact that dancing edg'es charisma mod is a significant difference, it adds 14-16 base damage in EVERY hit. With evisceration lacking this instead of WSC being 44 in my Op example it would only be 30-32 (remember, the secondary mod of evisceration is 30% just like DE, they're identical). That means after applying capped fSTR on both scenarios a base damage 77 weapon in evisceration (34 + 11 + 32 compared to a base damage 87 in dancing edge (33 + 10 + 44). In this case a critical will only make the base damage of evisceration the equivalent of 84-85, STILL 2 less than dancing edge, and the criticals don't happen on it enough to make this change a big enough increase (evisceration generally just is not that strong)

Furthermore


Quote:
Although there is something to be said about what buffs you're getting, I think. Most people think Rogue's Roll when they think X's Knife, but Samurai Roll is another, and much more common, buff that will help the X's Knife/Blau Dolch more than it would the Blau Dolch/Sirocco Kukri.



This is wrong, and totally the OPPOSITE of what would actually happen. The blau/sirocco combo won out BECASUSE of it's ability to weaponskill more. Increasing store tp in the same time frame will enhance this by a much greater effect. In my OP calculations consider the following

Quote:
Blau/sirocco with no haste

823 x 2 x 4.7 x 0.85 == 6575 tp/hr

Blau/sirocco with 25% haste

1097 x 2 x 4.7 x 0.85 = 8765 tp/hr

X'a/blau with no haste
712 x 2 x 4.9 x 0.85 = 5930 tp/hr

X's/blau with 25% haste

950 x 2 x 4.9 x 0.85 == 7913 tp/hr


According to the wiki the potency of Samurai roll is the following
Quote:

Die Roll No SAM With SAM
1 +8 +18
2 (Lucky) +32 +42
3 +10 +20
4 +12 +22
5 +14 +24
6 (Unlucky) +4 +14
7 +16 +26
8 +20 +30
9 +22 +32
10 +24 +34
11 +40 +50
Bust -5 -5


Now consider this. The highest c hange is store tp + 50 with an 11 and sam in party

4.5 x 1.55 == 6.9 TP per hit of the blau/sirocco

4.7 x 1.55 == 7.2 tp per hit of the x's/blau. The NEW ratios are thus

Blau/sirocco with no haste
823 x 2 x 6.9 x 0.85 == 9653 tp/hr

Blau/sirocco with 25% haste

1097 x 2 x 6.9 x 0.85 = 12,867 tp/hr

X'a/blau with no haste
712 x 2 x 7.2 x 0.85 = 8714 tp/hr tp/hr

X's/blau with 25% haste

950 x 2 x 7.2 x 0.85 == 11,628 tp/hr

In this case the difference went from The difference now just went from 645 tp and 852 tp in my OP example to 939 and 1239 tp/hr!!!

With NO haste by adding a maxed samurai roll you add THREE more weaponskills with the blau/sirocco in the same period of time, and with haste you just added FOUR weaponskills MORE in the same period of time. Enhancing the tp gain of the combos only benefits the blau/sirocco. Samurai roll would do much much MUCH more for blau/sirocco than it ever would for x's/blau.


As I said, back when the dagger change added 9 damage to X's no real numbers were run, so people just "assumed" the x's was better. But in ttruth this is what's been playing out for all this time, it's just nobody ever bothered to look for it so they never knew.

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 8:23am by Melphina
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#49 Feb 14 2009 at 6:32 AM Rating: Decent
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My 130-140 came from my rough averages in a normal bird party. about 450-500 for Sneak Attack, 550-600 for Trick Attack, and an assumed 14% critical hit rate for normal swings. Nothing fancy, just a ballpark.

Guess I was looking at the Store TP backwards. Had it in my head that it would improve the ratio of weapon skills to normal melee swings, and if weapon skills make up more of the damage then X's Knife has an advantage, being the higher damage weapon.

I do still like Evisceration, though. Being told about modifiers is one thing, and I understand that part of it, but since I became able to throw more dexterity at it while keeping my accuracy up it really has made a difference in the damage. Next time I get a chance to duo with my buddy, I plan to parse every which way I can to see if it's all in my head or what.

I do want to say thanks for going through all of this, Melphina. Just makes me a bit dumb for wasting my time and the time of my friends.
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#50 Feb 14 2009 at 6:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm honestly not surprised, and I always felt your conclusion in my gut from the day I understood how our daggers worked. The X's knife will definitely have a plethora of situational uses, but when it comes down to the 99% of our melee, the blau/sir combo will outdo because of the delay. 0% haste is simply unrealistic, throwing X's farther behind.

I have heard X's knife fixes Evisceration's averagely gimp damage though xD.

Cheers,

Michi
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#51 Feb 14 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
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So Best Dagger combo's now are - M/BD, BD/SK, PH/BD? or is PH/BD slightly better then BD/SK? from the outlook I would have said PH/BD is slightly better from the slightly higher DPS, and higher ws dmg.



I think another reason why ppl were so oOO Ahhhh on X's, was people have this facination with crit's. Ppl talk about gearing for crits when they obviously have no idea what they are really talking about, wanting to sacrifice all their acc/haste gear to put enough DEX into your tp build (+50 over mobs AGL) for a 20% crit rate (24% with merits).

I only wrote that becasue of this:

Shamanfoxl wrote:

Edit: And I think this could be potentially insane for a zerg, subbing /DRK, but I'm not exactly sure of dex needed for decent crit rates on higher NMs. It would be cool if someone w/ a reasonable set-up & X's could try it out on a few different NMs.


Think more about Haste/acc/HP for your /DRK zergs, and maybe an M.Kris.
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