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(by request) X's/blau versus blau/sirocco comparisonFollow

#1 Feb 11 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I posted this in omegag's thread as a reply to his question about how good x's knife was, but by his request I'm turning it into a new thread. Credit goes to him for asking the question, the analysis and my answer is below.
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Honestly X's knife isn't that great compared to blau/sirocco. Yes, yes, I know. Holy grounds, it's x's knife, I know. But honestly the 10% increase in critical damage isn't THAT much when you consider the 201 delay. I'm not even perusing getting one because I don't think it's worth my time, and that says a lot. I'll give a rough breakdown of what you get between the 2 daggers. There is a slight margin of error but the trend is pretty steadfast, and the numbers do show a clear choice in my mind about which dagger combo is actually better. I'm actually going to break this down by sections with clear headings this time, to ease the reading. As usal, if you want the answer, skip to the conclusion at the bottom. I also added a summary section this time to compile all the figures together in an easy to see fashion.


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Part A: Notes on wind damage


First off x's/blau has no wind damage proc, so on anything not birds or puks that's a bad thing. In situations you wear the thief knife offhand you should still use blau mainhand. You don't sacrifice blau except for possibly gods, but it wouldn't do much more there than the 16 attack and 5 accuracy on blau (remember, 16 attack is also an increase in pDIF), and i'll get into that in a second. The 16 attack and 5 accuracy with good delay/damage is just too powerful to ignore. On not gods blau dolch is just ... well... blau dolch!!.



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Part B: Notes on the critical pDIF increase of x's



That said I'll explain just how much that 10% critical increase on x's actually gives you. It adds 10% of your base damage when you crit by adding 0.3 to the pDIF, and that's it. The regular pDIF value applies by associativity. I'll give a few scenarios to exemplify this.


Scenario A:)
base damage 40 weapon with capped attack of 2.0. critical is 3.0
40 x 3.0 == 120 damage normally

Scenario B:)
base damage 44 weapon with capped attack of 2.0. critical is 3.0
44 x 3.0 == 132 damage after critical

Scenario C:
base damage 40 weapon with 0.3 added to the critical pDIF
40 x 3.3 -- 132 damage after critical


As you can see the extra 10% is exactly that, 10% of your base damage. That really isn't THAT much when you consider the high delay of X's. Now in sneak attack and a stacked weaponskill it will be more, but again take BASE damage and add it (not multiplied by pDIF because of associativity). Example of that below.

My sneak attack base damage is ~~~185-190, so x's would add 18-19 damage on a solo sneak attack. In dancing edge it applies to the first hit, and only the first since the rest cannot critical, and again it's similar in overall effect but adds the WSC and etc, so add about 25 base damage every weaponskill if stacked (my wsc adds approximately 55 base damage, but is stronger than most thieves)

now if I maximize my timers useage (I won't)

50 second sneak attack (merited 5 times) == 72 sa/hr x 18 == 1296
60 second trick attack == 60 ta/hr x 18 == 1080

Realistically however I do NOT get these anywhere NEAR optimized. Using Kparser I can find how often I may realistically get these used. In an 80 minute party at mamool ja's I used sneak attack 67 times and trick attack 59 times, missing about 30% of all attempted uses. That leaves me at 126 attempts in 80 minutes, or a 1.575 ratio of uses/minute. But with whiffed attempts it's actually closer to 90 successes, or about a 1.125 succes/minute. This is very close to what I'm actually getting so I can use this as a more accurate figure, thus

1.125 x 25 x 60 == 1687, if I apply all stacked and
1.125 x 18 x 60 == 1215 if I apply unstacked. I'll average these and grant it a much more realistic 1450 damage per hour on combined sa and ta crit increase to base damage/hr

Total melee DoT increase of SA and TA of x's == 1450 /hr

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Part C: Notes on delay differences and swings generated

Considering the above 2 concepts you have a better representation of what is happening in a live scenario with crits. Now it's time to calculate number of swings generated.

blau/sirocco. Delay 328, with dual wield and suppa 262.4. Base rate of swings is 823 rounds with no haste. With 15% magic haste and 10% gear haste it becomes 1097 rounds/hr

x's/blau == Delay 379, with dual wield with suppa 303.2, Base rate of swings is 712 rounds per hour with no haste. With 15% magic haste and 10% gear haste it becomes 950 rounds per hour.

The tradeoff is thus 111 attack rounds with no haste and 147 attack rounds with 25% haste.

Base damage of blau/sirocco is 59, base damage of x's/blau is 67.

(Note: This does NOT include fSTR, but this variable favors the blau/sirocco over x's/blau anyway because it's the same bonus every time it happens, so the faster weapon naturally benefits more because it happens more often.)

Note: Accuracy of 85% will be given for this scenario

blau/sirocco no haste
----59 x 823 x 0.85 == 41,273 base damage/hr

blau/sirocco 25% haste
----59 x 1097 x 0.85 = 55,014 base damage/hr

x's/blau no haste
----67 x 712 x 0.85 == 40,548 base damage/br

x's/blau with 25% haste
----67 x 950 == x0.85 54,102 base damage/hr

x's critical bonus would have to increase damage by 725 base damage in DoT to keep up with blau/sirocco with no haste, and 912 damage with 25% haste.

I'll give an extremely generous 20% crit rate in melee DoT (that's 1 in 5 swings). This is 142 rounds of crits with no haste, thus 6.7 x 142 == 951 base damage increase with x's. With haste it's 190 rounds, so 190 x 6.7 = 1273 base damage increase with x's.

Summary-- X's gain's a marginal increase in melee DoT of 316 damage with haste, and 226 damage with no haste. I intentionally set the crit rate near cap to favor the x's as much as possible because of the next section. In reality this is also high in favor of the x's.

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Part D: How much damage does that dancing edge do again?

For the next section, that being weaponskill frequency, we must know how strong an average dancing edge will be in terms of base damage. I will give a low number that every thief should be capable of hitting, of 450 base damage. To give a more accurate example of what it's capable of using the below scenario

120 dex (seriously most competent thieves can do this)
46 charisma (base mithra charisma with no bonus)
(120 x .3 + 46 x .4) = 54 WSC
54 WSC x 0.83 alpha value == 44 bonus damage of wsc. fSTR should b at least 5-6 in most scenarios. Thus

33 + 44 + 5 == 82 base damage for 5 main hits, and 26 + 44 + 5 == 75 damage for the offhand hit of blau/sirocco. Thus (82 x 5) + 75 == 485 base damage. Realistically every dancing edge should average much closer to 500 base damage when you consider multi procs, but for this discussion I'll give a low number to further prove the discussion at hand. This accounts for anyone with a weaker weaponskill set, because it should never go much lower than 450 base damage (accuracy is unimportant here due to associativity of what is being compared).


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Part E: Weaponskill Frequency and TP gain

Ahhh finally, the crux of the matter at hand. The biggest factor in this comparison is weaponskill frequency. The blau/sirocco with store tp + 5 of rajas will be getting 4.7 tp per swing (and two swings per round of course). The X's/blau combination will be getting 4.9 tp per hit with the rajas store tp + 5.

Blau/sirocco with no haste

823 x 2 x 4.7 x 0.85 == 6575 tp/hr

Blau/sirocco with 25% haste

1097 x 2 x 4.7 x 0.85 = 8765 tp/hr

X'a/blau with no haste
712 x 2 x 4.9 x 0.85 = 5930 tp/hr

X's/blau with 25% haste

950 x 2 x 4.9 x 0.85 == 7913 tp/hr

In terms of weaponskill potential the x's/blau will be performing 6-7 weaponskills LESS with no haste than blau/sirocco, and it will get 8-9 weaponskills LESS with 25% haste. The difference is 645 tp and 852 tp respectively.

There is one final difference is damage to be mentioned here. The damage 34 x's versus damage 33 blau in main hand hit of dancing edge, but this is only a potential 5 damage in main swings before accuracy. The 33 damage offhand blau versus 26 damage offhand sirocco is the other part to this so 12 base damage on every weaponskill and a bit more if the offhand procs a triple or double, averaging to about 15-16 damage per skill higher. At no haste x's/blau will will see about 59 weaponskills thus 59 x 16 == 944 damage extra from this component, and 25% haste will see about 79 weaponskills thus 79 x 16 = 1264 damage. This is countered by the frequency of weaponskills, and the x's loses big time here. If you average a weaponskill to only 450 base damage (and remember that this is extremely low as an average) you will find the blau/sirocco combo gaining 1981 damage with no haste and 2561 damage with haste as shown below.


450 x 6.5 == 2925
2925 - 944 == 1981 damage lost to blau/sirocco

450 x 8.5 == 3825
3825 - 1264 == 2651 damage lost to blau/sirocco

Note 1: Had you applied a dancing edge build with an average damage closer to 500 base damage blau/sirocco would have an even greater lead. With no haste blau/sirocco has an extra 6.5 weaponskills,

6.5 x 50 == 325 extra damage

With 25% haste blau/sirocco has an extra 8-9 weaponskills

8.5 x 50 == 425 extra damage

This base damage would be created by a superior weaponskill build, and is powered by rate of TP gain which is favored by blau/sirocco. My personal build is 92 base damage each main hit, and 85 per offhand, or 545 base damage without including multi procs at all!!

Note 2: The store tp + 0.1 on brutal earring will not affect the tp gained per hit on either combo whether you add the rajas, skadi's legs, or both. Because of this it can be omitted with no concequence to the verdict.

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Part F: Summary

I favored this scenario to that of criticals giving x's some advantages in the case of a crit build, which is what it does best at. If I take the gains of x's below then

No haste
1450 (ability useage) + 226 (increased damage over beau/sirocco from normal melee DoT crits) + 944 (base damage increase of each dancing edge)

1450 + 226 + 994 == 2670 damage

Number of weaponskills lost to get this -- 6-7. At average 450 damage per weaponskill

6.5 x 450 == 2925 base damage, a net loss of 255 base damage over blau sirocco. This does NOT include wind damage OR a stronger weaponskill build.


25% haste
1450 (ability useage) + 316 (increased damage over beau/sirocco from normal melee DoT crits) + 1264 (base damage increase of each dancing edge)

1450 + 316 + 126 == 3026 base damage


Number of weaponskills lost to get this -- 8-9

at 450 base damage average per weaponskill

450 x 8.5 == 3825 damage, a net loss of 799 base damage to the blau/sirocco. This does NOT include added wind damage proc of the sirocco OR a more powerful weaponskill build.


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Closing Notes:

Realistically the melee portion of x's/blau will not be 20% crits for most people, and the sa and ta timers (and successful landings) are never close to optimized. If you then add wind proc the sirocco will beat out the x's hands down. While the 10% critical increase is nice the 201 delay of X's knife is too slow, and with a decent haste setup makes it a BAD choice. Even when I gave the x's a 20% critical hit rate in melee DoT (which is high for almost everyone) it could not pull ahead of the blau/sirocco. This does not even account for wind damage that will be going off on many mobs.

I know, I stomped on holy grounds here. I deserve to be drugged into the streets and burned at the stake for daring to question the might of X's. The X's knife has been viewed as the holy grail of the thiefhood for years, but it just is not so. The numbers do not lie, and this is why I haven't even bothered trying to get one. There are situational uses for it like ballista or certain gods, like khimaira or kirin if you deploy the SA and TA ONRY tactic, but on them with a HP pool of 50,000 that extra base damage wont make it die any faster considering you have an entire alliance next to you. In a realistic tp burn type scenario, the blau/sirocco will still outperform the x's/blau, and this is for the samae reason it has outshone everything else to date. It's a MONSTER TP gain, with awesome DoT, and if wind procs its even better.

To this date the only dagger combination I have found that can compare on toe to toe grounds with the blau/sirocco is Batardeau/blau. the Mandau/blau of course is far superior. However, short of stage 4 Batardeau/Blau I have not found anything that can stand up to the might of the blau/sirocco in a tp burn scenario. It's monstrous TP gain enhanced by haste, combined with great DoT and wind damage makes it a titan of titans. It may not be relic, but it's so **** close that nothing else even compares. The blau/sirocco is in a league of it's own, and in a tp burn scenario even the X's/blau cannot upstand that.

Edited, Feb 14th 2009 1:29am by Melphina
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#2 Feb 12 2009 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks a lot melphina.

Just one thing tho, when calculating the base dmg of the weapon when you crit, why did you do :

Quote:
Scenaro a:)
base damage 40 weapon with capped attack of 2.0. critical is 3.0
40 x 3.0 == 120 damage normally
40 x 3.1 == 124 damage with x's. An increase of 4 damage


Shouldn't it be 40 base dmg x 1.1 (the x's knife bonus) x 3 (crit) = 132 ?

It correspond to exactly 110% of the previous 120damage without x's knife bonus.


Again, thanks a lot for this heavy work ^^

Edit : I honnestly would be ultra desapointed if I was already at the end of the non-relic thf road. So maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd really like to know I still have a lot of room for improvement ^^;;

Edited, Feb 12th 2009 3:26am by jainaproud
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#3 Feb 12 2009 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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Great Job with that math, kudos to you for a well done job ^^d

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#4 Feb 12 2009 at 1:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

Shouldn't it be 40 base dmg x 1.1 (the x's knife bonus) x 3 (crit) = 132 ?

It correspond to exactly 110% of the previous 120damage without x's knife bonus.


Yeah, I corrected that. II'm pretty sure it was the only math error. But your proposed scenario is not quite how it works, and that is the reason I goofed. I was thinking of this portion of the wiki.

Quote:

Increases Critical Hit Damage

* Some reports say it increases PDIF for critical hits by 0.3, resulting in an approximately 12% increase in critical hit damage vs. "Too Weak" mobs.
* Other reports say it simply increases critical hit damage by 10%.Verification Needed
* It is known to affect the hits of the other hand even when being dual-wielded, as well as affecting Sneak Attack and Trick Attack (with Assassin) hits when main-handed.


I've known about this section on the wiki, but hadn't had the page up at the time yet. According to the wiki there are two theories on how the critical damage of x's is added. One theory is that is just adds 10% damage, another is the proposed + 0.3 pDIF. There is a small difference between the two, and the + 0.3 pDIF theory can result in a small degree of lossiness, but it isn't significant at all.

To exemplify:

base damage 30 weapon at 1.5 pDIF, and critical of 2.5 pDIF

30 x 2.5 == 75 <--- normal crit

30 x 2.8 == 84 <--- Method A
33 x 2.5 == 82.5 <--- Method B

In my mind I mixed the two theories into one.
That 82.5 would be rounded down, resulting in 82 damage, a loss of 2 actual (not base) damage. But because this degree of lossiness is so insignificant it wouldn't ever affect anything, so I wasn't sure how to deal with it. In truth the 0.3 method is slightly stronger than a straight up 10% increase, but it won't be noticable... ever. I'm just gonna leave that here as a disclaimer in this post, becase I don't know how to fit it into the OP without mucking up the thing, and it really is a minor detail.

For the record, I'm of the opinion of the adding + 0.3 to the pDIF for the reasoning of the damage formula code. To get 10% increase in damage by altering the pdif means just adding 0.3 and it will have a small degree of alteration, as the example above indicates. Using the OP quoted formula with + 0.3 pDIF

40 x 3.0 == 120

40 x 3.3 == 132

To actually create that same number with the OTHER formula means CHANGING THE CODE by adding a NEW variable

40 x 1.1 x 3.0 == 132


OR

40 x 3.0 x 1.1 == 132

The new variable is highlighted. That variable does not exist in any other formula, in any other portion of the melee damage code. No other weaponskill, nor calculation PERIOD has that snippet. If s-e was to alter the code this way they would have to add a variable to the game with the sole purpose of calulating the critical bonus to X's knife on an EXTREMELY small portion of their playerbase, and thats a MONSTROUS waste of memory, and horrible horrible programming. Considering that they can adjust the code to add + 0.3 to the pDIF and get almost identical results means any smart programmer would choose this rout. S-E's dev team programmed the game, they aren't dumb. Because of that I'm 100% sure the calculation is as I stated in my OP, so I'll note it here and leave it at that.

Edited, Feb 12th 2009 9:46pm by Melphina
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#5 Feb 12 2009 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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Melphina, I was asking around about 8 or so months ago, and I was told that the bonus from X's was not in the form of a pDif bonus, but was actually a damage bonus similar to how weaknesses work. I.E. (calculated damage) * 1.1, not (calculated pDif)+0.3. It wont make any difference in your example, but at lower pDifs it would make a huge difference.

Edit: As to weaponskills, I would say you loose about 10% of TP on average due to going over on TP, either with double/triple attack procs, or missing at hit, and other factors, so with no haste I would say blau/SK gets 5-6 extra WS and with haste 7-8. That is just me though. I have been thinking along the same lines as you about whether X's is really worth it or not though, I am interested in this line of reasoning.

Edit2: for clarity, the responses I got had testing on them proving it, I am going to try to find them to present. I wasn't aware the wiki was still presenting both theories.

Edited, Feb 12th 2009 12:12pm by Meldi
#6 Feb 12 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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<3 the math :)

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#7 Feb 12 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
* Other reports say it simply increases critical hit damage by 10%.Verification Needed

base damage 30 weapon at 1.5 pDIF, and critical of 2.5 pDIF

30 x 2.5 == 76 <--- normal crit

30 x 2.8 == 84 <--- Method A
33 x 2.5 == 82.5 <--- Method B


Obviously doesn't matter much, but just out of curiosity - if it's boosting crit damage by 10%, wouldn't it be

30 x 2.5 = 76 (Crit hit) x 1.1 = 83.6
?
Method B isn't actually increasing crit damage by 10%, it's increasing base damage by 10% when a crit triggers, right?
Again, unimportant because it's an even smaller "degree of lossiness", just curious.
#8 Feb 12 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Iheartninja: It doesn't matter where the 1.1 is applied in Method B, since all of the calculations are multiplications you could do (30 * 1.1) * 2.5 or 30 * (2.5 * 1.1) and you would get the exact same answer. Pdif is never actually 2.5 anyway, is would be 2.500 because of the way it is floored, so if you calculated it out that way it would be 2.750, nothing would be lost to flooring on this particular example.
#9 Feb 12 2009 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi: Jeebus I r retarded. Mr. Commutative says hi. Next time I will stop and use my brain first. Maybe.
Melphina: 30 x 25 = 75, not 76
#10 Feb 12 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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So can i ask why you used Dancing Edge and not Evisceration. Knowing Dancing edge can only crit once...
#11 Feb 12 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I've always wanted to sport a X's Knife and WS in a heavy DEX/crit+ build and try out X's. I love closing Darkness w/ that WS and I think this could do some cool things.

Edit: And I think this could be potentially insane for a zerg, subbing /DRK, but I'm not exactly sure of dex needed for decent crit rates on higher NMs. It would be cool if someone w/ a reasonable set-up & X's could try it out on a few different NMs.

Edited, Feb 12th 2009 4:14pm by Shamanfoxl
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#12 Feb 12 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Mel: I disagree.

I dorked with my spreadsheet in my signature (I just used 1.3 for the crit mod in C31 for X's Knife).

I just used the spell haste, and gave the character 107 STR (cap for rank 3 weapon on greater Colibri). I assumed 10 dmg/round extra from Sirocco.

Here are the results:
 
Daggers  	AvgHit  # Hits	TotalJA	Melee	AvgWS	WSTotal	Total DMG 
X's/Blau	91	770	45660	70070	349	24430	140160 
Blau/Sirocco	87	890	36240	77430	336	22848	136518 


Now, the Blau is only a rank 2 weapon, so the STR cap is 103. If I let the blau become a rank 3 weapon the results are almost identical. (about 100 dmg in favor of X's).

I did not spend much time putting real gear on this example, I assume it just matches aside from the weapons here, depending on the exact stats used, and the enemy picked to fight it may help out blau sirocco. If you use Evisceration instead of Dancing Edge the results are even more in favor of X's.

Now if you use 100 STR (where the rank won't matter anything less than 103). X's will win at low haste, but lose at high haste situations.

If you download the spreadsheet, please realize it will use the incorrect rank for blau by default.

Edited, Feb 12th 2009 4:39pm by BrimstoneFox

Edited, Feb 12th 2009 4:41pm by BrimstoneFox
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#13 Feb 12 2009 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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On 2nd thought my analysis is a bit flawed in that my spreadsheet doesn't account for weapon rank of off hand so the blau is getting a bit of a boost there, and my hit rate is low (78%), higher numbers there probably favor blau/sirocco. Not sure anyone TPs in 100 STR either.

Nonetheless, I think "it depends" is probably the best answer. (most thf merits will favor X's though)

The average dmg of the wind effect will heavily effect it as well.
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#14 Feb 12 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Melphina: 30 x 25 = 75, not 76


Typo.. late at night, 5am and stuff. Fixed that just now >.>

Quote:
So can i ask why you used Dancing Edge and not Evisceration. Knowing Dancing edge can only crit once...


Evisceration is FAR inferior to dancing edge in tp burn in the long run. The 40% charisma mod is a significant increase, and with no boosts as mithra (the lowest natural chr rating) 46 x 0.4 == 18.4 wsc before alpha, which when added to dex will grant 14-16 base damage on every hit generated. While evisceration can critical and has slightly higher peaks, it will never outperform dancing edge as a whole. I have tried both, and dancing edge always beats out evisceration by a large margin with repeated useage. The x's wouldn't change this fact enough to make it worth using evisceration over dancing edge.

A better weaponskill to use as an example would be shark bite, because it gets most of its power from the first hit critical rather than the offhand strike. This would lead to situational uses at gods, but again consider the 16 attack of blau raises the pDIF as well, and applies to every hit which helps to not hit for 0, and the 5 accuracy is always welcome. I would still use blau myself, but this would be a case where some could choose x's.


Quote:
Not sure anyone TPs in 100 STR either.


If they do they're ******** themselves over by sacrificing accuracy or haste or attack in a BIG way. I have 62 + 5 (meat) + 5 (rajas) + 4 (cuchulain's) == 76 strength in melee TP building. No, even elvaan's should not have that much strength. The extra 1 damage on weapon rank in weaponskill would add a small change buut again, this is akin to the 5 damage every main hit on dancing edge. It wont alter the verdict.

By the way, the fSTR value for melee DoT favors the blau/sirocco over x's blau as I quoted in my op.

Quote:
(Note: This does NOT include fSTR, but this variable favors the blau/sirocco over x's/blau anyway because it's the same bonus every time it happens, so the faster weapon naturally benefits more because it happens more often.)


Hypothetically if you somehow managed to cap strength in TP building then adding 20 base damage applies to the blau/sirocco as well as 22 to x's blau. This changes the rates in favor of blau/sirocco, NOT x's,blau, and this is because the blau/siroccos speed makes it's 20 damage increase happen much more than the x's,blau's 22 damage increase. Consider the following

Blau/sirocco damage 59 + 20 (capped fSTR) == new base damage 79

X's blau damage 67 + 22 (capped fSTR) == new base damage 89

Blau/sirocco no haste
79 x 0.85 x 823 == 55,264

X's/blau with no haste
89 x 0.85 x 712 == 53,862

Blau/sirocco with haste
79 x 0.85 x 1097 == 73,663

X's/blau with haste
89 x 0.85 x 950 == 71,867

X's melee crits now have to make up 1402 damage with no haste and 1796 damage with haste. Considering the original values were 973 and 1271 respectively you just hurt the x's rather than helped it, because fSTR applies to both combos equally, so the one it happens on more often gets a bigger increase, and that's the blau/sirocco.


As a closing note: I did not calculate the wind proc. If you consider no haste the blau/sirocco gets 823 rounds/hr and 1097 with 25% haste, at 85% accuracy that's 699 and 932 connecting rounds respectively. The sirocco's wind damage averages to about 7-9 damage per strike on mobs that aren't wind resistant. Considering a low number of even 6 actual damage

6 x 699 == 4194 actual damage

6 x 932 == 5592 actual damage

To compare this to base damage, consider this. If your attack is capped and every hit lands at maxed 2.0 pDIF (and even this is unfair because at capped attack only half of your hits will hit 2.0 attack cap while the other half will be in the 1.6-2.0 range)

4194/2 == 2097 base damage at capped attack

5592/2 == 2796 base damage at capped attack

The farther from capped attack you get, the more significant the wind damage becomes, to the point of 1.0 pDIF being a 1/1 ratio on base damage to actual damage in a linear curve.

This wind damage is a signifcant source of damage on anything not wind based, and as I showed in my OP the difference in actual performance still favors the blau/sirocco without it. In my mind the blau/sirocco is an uncontested winner in 95% of normal scenarios, the exception would possibly be shark bite at gods where the focus of the weaponskill is centered to the first hit critical, and the offhand is the icing rather than the meat of the skill.

Edited, Feb 13th 2009 1:14pm by Melphina
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#15 Feb 12 2009 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice job, and thanks for the research you did.
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#16 Feb 12 2009 at 7:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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several people quoted

Quote:
thanks for the info


You're welcome. The long held notion that x's is an incredible dagger stems back from an assumption that was made 2 years ago when the dagger update changed the base damage in late 2006. People oogled at it and went WOW, X's is now awesome and believed it was so, so they passed this down through the ages as truth. I remember when it happened clearly, X's went from base damage 25 to base damage 34, and this was a big increase. It was one of the few daggers to get a NINE point base damage gain, and it was this draastic increase in base damage that started the wheels in motion. However I have no knowledge of anyone running actual numbers or comparisons at this time (or any time since for that matter), nor anyone posting a side by side match up of what each dagger does. At the time there were far less people well versed in the formula, and even I didn't learn it until 2007 by teaching myself from the wiki. As is often the case with assumption the old addage "never assume, (you know what happens when you do)" holds true. Just because something is believed true for a long period of time does not always make it so. Because people have assumed and believed in the x's for so long they never ran many numbers, but the founding basis of x's power is rooted on a "hunch" a lot of people had back in 2006, and that assumption is, and always has been, wrong. I have run the above scenarios in my OP and added live scenarios with my actual stats and attack/defense ratios, across multiple haste/accuracy ranges, and even included multi proc of double/triple, but the result is always the same. the x's/blau has never outperformed the blau/sirocco on paper, and the margin has been significant enough for me to be certain it never will.

X's knife drop rate has been referred to by most people as
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Soul Crushing


Kreutzeuit is much easier to camp, seriously it is. Getting a party that can actually KILL the three mithran trackers (and can even ENTER the fight with CoP beaten and the pre req done..... and also would NOT want to lot it themselves) versus a few high levels friends to run out to cape terrigan when the weather taru says it will be windy... that's no comparison at all. Furthermore the sirocco has a GOOD drop rate (yes, 33% is good, many are 1/1), the choice in my mind is clear as a bell as to which combo is better, and the better one is easier to get to boot.

Edited, Feb 13th 2009 1:15pm by Melphina
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#17 Feb 12 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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This is one of those dagger combos that doesn't destroy BD/SK but I would have no problem using this combo if I ever got one.

In all honesty, BD/SK is such a great combo that SE would have to release a dagger so incredible that we would all want.

Now, regardless of how good X's knife is I still would love to have one just so I can write a letter to SE saying "F U". Plus this is one of those items that, not always, shows that a thief is really putting a lot of effort on his job. It's a unique and very rare dagger. (Of course we can all hate that bst guy that did the quest to complete his quest list and it dropped for him /cry)
#18 Feb 12 2009 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I will agree with you on that carlcarl. the x's is a symbolism of rarity and dedication. I will not ever deny or argue against that. Rarity and utility are not one in the same, plus X's has situational uses with shark bite and ballista and etc, so again, it's a NICE dagger. The thing is it suffers from a misconception that goes back over 2 + years as I stated in my above post as to how the belief it was ultimate came about.

But you hit the nail on the head when you said

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In all honesty, BD/SK is such a great combo that SE would have to release a dagger so incredible that we would all want.


The mighty blau/sirocco combo is so powerful it's capable of standing up to even Batardeau/Blau with similar results (***Ignoring mercy stroke in dynamis of course). I've run this scenario too, and it's very close. I'd probably side with the Batardeau/Blau here but the margin isn't befitting a 70 million gil investment unless you can one day finish it to Mandau itself. That says more than you can imagine when you can take a combo and get SIMILAR TO STAGE 4 RELIC performance with a 2.5 mil auction dagger and a NM drop that in this day and age is pretty easy to do. The one and only dagger combo that is capable of hands down beating the blau/sirocco is the Mandau/blau (and of course the mandau/blau CRUSHES blau/sirocco, as it **** well should!!!). There is just too much to be said about 16 attack, 5 accuracy, wind damage, and delay 328 with combined base damage 59. I just don't see how s-e could improve on the blau/sirocco combo in a way that will be accessible to the average player without going too far. I said in my OP the blau/sirocco may not be relic, but it's so **** powerful it's scary. The only combo I would ever choose to wear over blau/sirocco in tp burn scenario is mandau/blau. Everything else falls to the wayside.

Edited, Feb 12th 2009 11:35pm by Melphina
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#19 Feb 13 2009 at 2:41 AM Rating: Default
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I'd like to see some mandau/x vs mandau/blau plz :o
#20 Feb 13 2009 at 5:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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For the record, when Melphina makes one of these disgustingly useful number-crunching posts (in particular those that goes sacred-cow tipping, like the above), shouldn't it be stickied in the useful forum links thinger?
#21 Feb 13 2009 at 6:07 AM Rating: Default
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So what if you had a Cor in the party doing Rogue's roll? Doesn't matter what number roll it gets.
#22 Feb 13 2009 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I totally agree with Aluve.
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#23 Feb 13 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:

Blau/sirocco damage 59 + 20 (capped fSTR) == new base damage 79

X's blau damage 67 + 22 (capped fSTR) == new base damage 89


Wrong.

Its: 33 + 10 and 26 + 10 = 43 and 36 base dmg then each of those is run through pDIF. Which is then floored.

Also: 34 + 11 and 33 + 10 = 45 and 43, which is run through pDIF then floored. If by not separating them you 'round up' by 1 on a low delay weapon that will skew your values over time quite a bit. You also made the same mistake I made and gave the Blau a rank 3 weapon when paired with X's. I'm pretty sure weapon rank is separate not together.

You're guestimations are close, but not entirely accurate, and the comparison is close enough that rounding/wind dmg proc. can make it or break it.

I originally used 10 dmg for wind proc. on Sirocco, bumping it down to just 8 was fairly significant over an hr. of time. (which is ~1000 hits thus 2k total dmg).

I just search FFXIAH for someone with X's equiped (not me, I just clicked on the first name that came up), so I used this gear in the calcuations below, 10% crit rate. only 1 TA merit, no other merits. 8 dmg per wind process. The spell haste was cast.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=6640

Here's the numbers.
 
Totals:	        AvgHit	#Hits	TotJA	TotMele	AvgWS	TotWS   Total DMG 
X's/Blau	74	1099	41340	81326	348	34452	157118 
Blau/Sir	72	1271	33060	91512	341	33077	157649 


Blau/Sirocco by a hair, but this assumes no gear swap for WS, and using DE (which is inferior with X's). It assumes TA, SA every 60 seconds. interesting tidbit: TP gain is better with X's/Blau will get 99 ws off in an hr. instead of 97. If you're gear swapping I'm sure X's will pull ahead because the WS will be much more powerful (particularly if you use Evisceration instead).

Of course giving Sirocco 9 or 10 average wind process will push it up too, also if you remove the spell haste X's/Blau ends up with more dmg.

My conclusion: the wind process from sirocco > crit hit from X's for tp, particularly in high haste situations - (say 30%). However the pDIF mod and higher dmg of X's will outweigh the wind proc. and low delay sirocco in any other situation. Whether that makes getting X's 'worth it' is up to the individual.


Edited, Feb 13th 2009 10:38am by BrimstoneFox - one of these days my table will post right!

Edited, Feb 13th 2009 10:39am by BrimstoneFox
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#24 Feb 13 2009 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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There's a reason I've only spent my time so far doing calculations for weapon skills/sa/ta/etc and calculations for tp gain.

Doing DoT correctly is waaay to hard. :/
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#25 Feb 13 2009 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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BrimstoneFox: I am sorry to say, I think your calculations are mistaken. One, average melee fSTR for a thief is going to be between 4-6. Not capped, that is a point in favor of blau/SK. Second, X's/Blau by any calculation will not get more WS than Blau/SK, by a long shot. The numbers I have been checking myself are reflecting more or less what melphina is putting up in her OP. Blau/SK outTPs X's/Blau by a significant amount (900+ tp after 1 hour in a specific gearset), even with no outside help. My numbers are also showing Blau/SK up by about 1k damage after an hour (not even adding any wind damage).

I have to agree with Melphina out right on this one, I think the Azoth/Blau vs. Blau/SK comparisons actually came out much closer. Ouside of a crit build + rogue's roll, I don't think there is really a reason to consider using X's knife aside from the novelty of the item itself. Maybe if it had 183 delay or something...

Edited, Feb 13th 2009 11:02am by Meldi
#26 Feb 13 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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I see what you're saying brim. and I do follow. If you average pDIF to 1.33 then 43 x 1.33 == 57.19, floored to 57. Also 36 x 1.33 == 47.88, floored to 47. 47 + 57 == 104 actual damage per round, whereas 79 x 1.33 == 105 actual damage per round, and by combining the two I would give actual damage per round an added 1 point of damage that wasn't there each round, resulting in extra damage. But that works for both scenarios and uses actual damage, whereas I used base damage. Consider then

X's/blau with no haste had 712 swings, x's/blau with haste had 950 swings. Blau/sirocco with no haste had 823 swings, blau/sirocco with haste had 1097 swings. The difference here is then 111 and 147 points of ACTUAL damage because that is the difference in rounds generated between the two.

In my OP calculations I did it as such to compare BASE damages without considering attack and pDIF. In truth, if your attack is greater than 1.0 pDIF (it probably should be) then a difference of 1 base damage weighs more severely than a difference in one actual damage. If pDIF is 1.5 then 2 base damage is worth 3 actual damage, and the higher ones attack the more insignificant this difference in 111 and 147 points becomes. I didn't compare this in my OP because it required adding a pDIF, when all I did was utilize BASE damage due to the fact that the 10% increase can be converted efficiently to base damage on blau/sirocco it is a useful way of comparing the alterations in damage WITHOUT requiring a pDIF to get the result. The numbers are still too much in favor of the blau/sirocco. The X's/blau changes you gave still won't change the end result, in fact it won't change anything at all.

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I have to agree with Melphina out right on this one, I think the Azoth/Blau vs. Blau/SK comparisons actually came out much closer. Ouside of a crit build + rogue's roll, I don't think there is really a reason to consider using X's knife aside from the novelty of the item itself. Maybe if it had 183 delay or something...


agreed on that, that would make it a closer fit. The OP calculations gave an unfair 20% crit to x's in melee, which it usually wont see. No, even rogues roll isn'tt a big enough increase to crits, not even at an 11 roll to change the verdict of the OP. Furthermore again I bring up wind damage. If you consider wind damage is actually 9-10 in many scenarios, and closer to 8-10 average, even my wind guesstimations are low. I gave the x's some unfair advantages and it still got beaten soundly. The max fSTR is NOT possible in melee, if you have that you sacrificed too much elsewhere and you're doinitwrong!! fSTR will always be the same for both weapons in every setup, you will NEVER cap this in normal melee. Considering this I stand by my OP soundly. The x's/blau in a TP burn setup is INFERIOR to blau/sirocco in PERFORMANCE. But it's novelty, coolness, and shark bite utility do NOT make it useless. It's not suddenly BAD, it's just not as useful in tp burn as blau/sirocco. But nothing else really is short of relic...

Edited, Feb 13th 2009 1:27pm by Melphina
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