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So where are we with Sub Jobs?Follow

#1 Dec 13 2010 at 5:23 AM Rating: Good
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I noticed my response to another thread was rated down because I mentioned I still prefer to use /SCH over /RDM. Especially since Abyssea renders refresh rates almost irrelevant. I prefer the overall bonuses from /SCH. I.e. the recast/casting time/reduced MP cost/conserve mp and boost to skill. Let alone celerity, which has saved my butt more than once or twice. I guess Fast Cast II balances out with light arts.

I have level 90 (must update sig) on RDM and WHM and will shortly have on BLM, SCH, SMN etc. Am I missing something? I don't have MP issues inside or out of Abyssea. Granted I have some of the best gear for WHM there is which helps a lot but I don't find myself ever wanting to sub RDM, even though its available to me. I have tried it, and I miss /SCH.

/RDM

Gravity
Sleep
Phalanx
Refresh
Dispel
Convert
Fast Cast II

/SCH

Light Arts :- Optimizes white magic capability while lowering black magic proficiency. Grants a bonus to divine, enhancing, enfeebling, and healing magic. Also grants access to Stratagems.
Penury
Celerity
Accession
Sleep
Dispel
Sublimation

I guess I really don't get why Light Arts doesn't beat anything else hands down. 10% cheaper spells all round... let alone boosted skills. And you can't argue with accession...

Why are you subbing RDM?


#2 Dec 13 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't have MP issues


This is mainly why you're not seeing /RDM as useful. /RDM is for sheer MP.
#3 Dec 13 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I don't have MP issues


This is mainly why you're not seeing /RDM as useful. /RDM is for sheer MP.


I don't really buy that. I don't know, I'd think you'd save more MP in the long term using /SCH with the constant cost reduction and the occasional Conserve MP/Penury Proc. And inside Abyssea (which is where we all seem to live) MP issues are irrelevant honestly. Ok, I'm sitting on three atma now but even with one... I found I didn't need a refresher for most things.

I don't get why peeps would want to drop the buffs to skills for example. I enfeeble/use barspells and the bonus from Light Arts really helps. It costs you nothing to use Sub (should you be unsupported) and yet 40MP to cast Refresh. 50 ticks of 3mp is 150MP? (Forgive me if I'm getting my numbers wrong, I'll happily be corrected). 110 MP over 2.5 mins. There is immediacy I guess of Convert but that also puts you in a pretty dangerous situation.

Sublimation isn't as good as refresh insofar as you can't rest with it up without a stoneskin, even though our autoregen it doesn't hit us hard in the HP stakes. At least now it will be noticably quicker to charge.

The way I see it is RDM is a perfectly viable sub for WHM, just not the best one and nothing I've seen or experienced so far changes my opinion on that. I guess I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

Are Elvaan and Galka really that MP deprived? I'm hume, not taru so I'm pretty well off on the MP stakes but I only have one piece of convert gear. With the efficiency you can achieve on cures right now, I don't think MP is really an issue anywhere is it?

I'm genuinely bemused.
#4 Dec 13 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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I'm with you eldelphia. /SCH for life. I love the extra bonus to my skills. People think /RDM nets more MP in the long run but it's just not true. It's situational. /RDM is really all about regaining MP through Convert and Refresh. The MP you get from /RDM is fixed based on your HP/MP ratio when you Convert. /SCH isn't about recovering MP, it's about never spending it in the first place, thus anything you get to add to your MP compounds with it.

I've done the math before and it's not hard to figure on about 25% average MP savings from /SCH alone compared to /RDM. 25% doesn't seem like a lot, especially in the face of a fresh MP pool every 10 minutes, but here's the important part many people don't realize: that figure affects not just the MP you start the battle with, it also affects MP you gain during the battle. If you rest 100 MP, it's like resting 125 MP on /SCH. If you are getting 20 MP/tick from atma, then it's like getting 25 MP/tick on /SCH. This is why it suddenly feels like you burn MP so much faster when you change to /RDM, because you are.



Also, just wanted to point out that /BLM is officially back in the fold. Most people overlooked the fact that it gained a particularly useful spell at 45: Stun. MP being such a non-issue in Abyssea, utility becomes more and more useful. I could see WHM/BLM being really nice for low-manning in Abyssea. That's another problem with /RDM is that it doesn't have a lot of utility. Dispel, Refresh, and Gravity are about it. Phalanx is overrated in my opinion. /SCH has utility such as Sublimation for sleep immunity, Light Arts for stronger barspells and enfeebs, or Celerity for Raise-fests.
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#5 Dec 13 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I exclusively go WHM/SCH and don't really see the appeal of /RDM except for a handful of situations (mostly low-manning). I can count the number of times I have used RDM as a sub for WHM on one hand, and every time, I too wished I was /SCH. Inside (and generally outside as well) of Abyssea, MP is an non-issue. Yes, I am a taru, but I don't really gear for MP. Inside Abyssea, with MM and another 5/tic Refresh atma (or VV for Staff WS triggers) I can main heal with Cure V and VI with the only restriction being recast timers. I rarely spend MP to the point that I was wishing for Convert, and even if I were to run out, there are still spent of cruor meds to quickly (and safely) replenish MP. A decent Cure Potency set (I'm sitting at 44% without Light Obi equipped) really helps get the most out of a single Cure spell, which combined with Light Art's 10% MP/Cast/Recast Reduction really helps a WHM heal efficiently.

On Ragnarok, I notice a lot of WHM/BLMs running around (in parties, events, etc.) and I always wonder why. Outside of a few utility spells (Stun @90, Bind, Sleep, etc.), BLM doesn't offer much since Converse MP is also a SCH trait. RDM is a bit more respectable as a sub since its main utility spells (Gravity, Bind, Sleep, Dispel, etc.), combined with Fast Cast tiers, Convert, and Refresh are nice for low-man situations. However, /SCH is enough for me to personally since I can Accession + Stoneskin my party, plus all of the benefits listed by Eldelphia and Pergatory.

RDM is a decent option, and if someone feels more comfortable with it, to each his/her own. However, once the basics of /SCH are learned, it really does save a lot of MP in addition to boosting other aspects of WHM.

(P.S.: As a fellow WHM-enthusiast, I really enjoy reading your blog and seeing all the WHM (and other mage gear) you acquire Eldelphia. ^^ I have taken a lot of tips from your gear builds and receive a good deal of compliments on my WHM. Keep up the great work!)
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#6 Dec 14 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't really buy that. I don't know, I'd think you'd save more MP in the long term using /SCH with the constant cost reduction and the occasional Conserve MP/Penury Proc


Nope, Convert and Refresh wins out for sheer MP.

Thing is, in Abyssea, it's mostly a moot point.
#7 Dec 14 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Default
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Nope, Convert and Refresh wins out for sheer MP.

Except with sublimation, you can (in a sense) gain mp even if your MP pool is full. Also, at 90+ /sch sublimation is 3 mp/tick. Idk if you included that in your calculation or not.

About the only time I use /rdm is when I solo, and even then it's just so I can put up phalanx (and sometimes Bio II) and not worry about keeping utsusemi up.
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#8 Dec 14 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Except with sublimation, you can (in a sense) gain mp even if your MP pool is full.


If your MP is full, you hardly need to be worried about lack of MP, now do you?

Oh, and as long as we're going to make comparisons like that, here's one for you -- having a Convert waiting to be used is like having an extra full MP pool waiting in the wings, unlike a charged Sublimation which will only be a portion of said pool.


Quote:
Also, at 90+ /sch sublimation is 3 mp/tick. Idk if you included that in your calculation or not.


Actually, I hadn't. Doesn't change much though; like I said Refresh is hardly even worth using anymore in Abyssea due to all the MP/tic you can get already that doesn't require constant reapplication. Convert is what really matters for /RDM.

If you really wanted to milk each sub for everything they've got though, Refresh would still be used, and it would still mostly match Sublimation.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 3:43am by Fynlar
#9 Dec 14 2010 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
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I think everyone gets that RDM is ok as a sub but you're missing out on a fair bit from /SCH. Accession is pretty amazing if you don't have Yagrush for example. The thing I really love about /SCH though is the boost to skill and the ability to celerity+raise mid fight without killing your tank.

I think /BLM is making a comeback because being able to sub Stun and have Warp/Warp II is bloody useful.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 5:09am by eldelphia
#10 Dec 14 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with ya on /sch, Elph. I have /rdm leveled but mostly for the blm. I've only used /rdm on whm twice; once was in limbus in a lowman situation, the other was when I was soloing Distorter of Time. Needed the fresh/convert there and /sch didn't quite cut it for the mission for some reason. (Even with the mission, it took me 4 tries and a asston of meds.)

So yeah. /rdm is situational. Otherwise, my sub is /sch. :)
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#11 Dec 15 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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Don't forget that it also depends on what you're fighting, and Aspirable targets... For the hell of it, I've used aspirga on groups of summoners and their avatars in dynamis after dumping as much mp as I could. I went back to full. Good times. Worms in Abyssea come to mind...
#12 Dec 18 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll throw in my Smiley: twocents.

I don't understand /rdm either. People constantly forget that Refresh is 40mp itself to cast and that you need to cure yourself after Converting, drastically undermining the MP efficiency that people make /rdm out to be. Making full use of /sch and it's abilities and traits nets me far more MP than /rdm ever could. /rdm supporters never seem to realize how much damage mitigation you gain from AOE buffs.

On Aspirable mobs there's not even a comparison.

Sh1t's always situational, though. I've gone whm/rdm a few times out of necessity; recently I've been duo'ing Carabosse and prefer to /rdm so I don't have to remain in Dark Arts for Dispel spam.
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#13 Dec 18 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Decent
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The only time that I regularly sub redmage is when I fight ovni. I gain a little fast cast, but the big (and only) reason why I do so it so I can dispel without having to worry about messing with arts.
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#14 Dec 20 2010 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Hmm, reading some interesting arguments on /BLM on BG (in a completely irrelevant thread of course). Start from this post

Quote:

"And am I the only one who thinks assuming Atma of Ambition and /sch are both pretty stupid in the current game? 1 of the 2, at best. If you are fine on MP, /blm is far and away the best SJ you can run with, especially in low-man situations. Who gives a @#%^ about casting a cure faster when you can directly prevent 1000, 2000 or more damage? Are people so blinded by "zomg whm is a healer" that they ignore everything every SJ has to offer? Do you never feel that /nin is a superior choice vs some of these NMs that hate wipe (or like the Uragnite T3 who may very well pop immune to your tank)? Are we really calling the best merits whm has available bad because when we gimp our atma/sj it doesn't do anything for us? I understand you can cap without any of them, and I understand even without atma or /sch or /rdm you can still cap without 5pts (but afaik you still need 2-3)...but I think going whm/sch to Abyssea at the moment is just...silly I guess. And I was one of the biggest advocates of /sch before Abyssea, but 3 atmas with anywhere from 10-20 refresh (in addition to 4 standing refresh available on gear) makes /sch pretty unnecessary imo, whereas stun always has been, and still is amazing. "


Take the tone as you will but essentially is /BLM now more reasonable than /RDM or /SCH? Situationally I totally see the point but sure it depends on whether you have an alliance or a small group. Yes, another stunner is always a good thing. If you're able to sub BLM and stun reliably in a lowman situation, I can completely see it.

Inside Abyssea I think it has a stronger argument than out but you're still losing the casting time/recast and skill bonuses, even if you discount the MP.
#15 Dec 21 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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eldelphia wrote:
Hmm, reading some interesting arguments on /BLM on BG (in a completely irrelevant thread of course). Start from this post

While I agree that Stun is pretty useful, I don't agree with the passion with which this person vilifies the other subs. I see /BLM as situational again, whereas it had been pretty much obsolete since the introduction of /SCH. However, you pretty much need a BLM for 2/3 of the stuff in Abyssea anyway if you want to trigger yellow, so you should have stun covered on the most devastating of moves. WHM should never be the primary stun, because the time when stun should be cast is also very close to the time heals should be cast.

This person thinks they are only giving up a fraction of a second to their Cure casting by losing Light Arts, but it's more than that. If Stun comes a fraction of a second too late, the WHM will have to wait a couple seconds before they can start casting Cure. With MP being such a non-issue, and so much fast cast being available or even Quick Magic (which is freakin awesome), the best thing a WHM can do now is land big Cures immediately after a high-damage move is done. When I say immediately, I mean before the mob has a chance to take a single melee swing after its WS. After a devastating move, your Cure V should land before a single point of damage is dealt again. If you are busy trying to stun, that isn't going to happen. Leave stunning to the support mages, WHM has one job: keep people alive. There are times when Stun suits that goal, but it's far from universal like this person seems to think. Front-line jobs have so much HP now that WHM really shines, and this person doesn't seem to realize how much power all that extra HP and our unlimited MP really gives us.
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#16 Dec 21 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I played with /blm some yesterday, and it's mixed. There are some things where if you stun their moves they just throw out a TP move as soon as they become unstunned, which really doesn't get us anywhere. I did fight some monsters, particularly ones that throw out T3-4 aga spells, which it turned out to be very useful.

So where does that put us? Sub blackmage is back on the table, but it is far from the end all subjob. In a alliance sized fight I really shouldn't be the main stun, although I do see some use for it in low man situations. Scholar has more to offer then just mp efficiency, and I think it will continue to be my alliance sized subjob of choice.
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#17 Dec 22 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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Being able to "Curaga" and "Protectra" another party is also a great asset of /sch
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#18 Dec 22 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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To be blunt, I never liked /blm when it was considered a decent whm sub in the first place and tended to /whine when I had to sub it for more than just tele whore or running around. Up until /sch, I was hardcore /smn. I could never FEEL conserve mp on /blm, it never ever kicked in for me, so I was all meh.

Yet when I finally tried /sch I loved it, and have never looked back. /sch may not have the autorefresh of /smn but I can see it's ten times better.

I can see why in certain situations you may want /blm but...Because I like the mp cons features of /sch and the ability to ga cure on another party in the ally if I have to, as well as being able to speed up SS cast if I have to use it.

Seriously, it's pre-scholar situation all over again. Ask me to sub /blm and you'll get some serious /whine'ing from me.



Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 12:46pm by maryadavies
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#19 Dec 23 2010 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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Yep, I feel the same about /SCH. It's about a lot more than MP. Its about raising skills, fastcast/recast and conserve MP. Yes, I can see times where I may situationally sub BLM for Stun but I don't see that happening often. I didn't really like /SMN if I'm honest and did prefer /BLM for most things but now, don't you take my precious /SCH away!
#20 Dec 27 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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I pretty much sub /SCH both inside and outside of abyssea; the only time another sub job is used is when I'm fooling around or doing low-man abyssea events, then I'll /nin just for survivability.
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#21 Jan 01 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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/SCH offers so much more than /RDM... so what if /RDM nets you some more MP over the long run and ? Even if that's true, that still doesn't account for all the stuff which makes /SCH so useful:

- speed raise people with celerity
- 50% mp cost reduction with penury
- conserve mp trait
- sublimation keeps you from being slept (mostly)
- buff an outside party with Shell/Protect
- aspir can come in useful for extra mp
- dispel is available if it's absolutely needed
- not sure if this works, but I hear you can use sandstorm to negate double dark weather

/RDM gives you like... refresh, convert, gravity, fast cast 2, enspells (why not use afflatus misery + auspice)... is that it?
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#22 Jan 02 2011 at 3:18 AM Rating: Good
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Ha. I remember doing JoLove with friends. DDs were charmed and their gear gave them some mp. she manifestation aspir'd and got like 100-200mp. lol
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#23 Jan 04 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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/SCH offers so much more than /RDM... so what if /RDM nets you some more MP over the long run and ?


Because sometimes you don't need all those frills, and what you need is just sheer MP?

I don't know why people are having such a hard time understanding this. It's pretty much the same thing as the /BLM and /SMN debates from yesteryear. /BLM carries more utility; /SMN carries slightly more MP. Depending on what you need, you pick a sub. What's so damn hard to figure out here?


Quote:
(why not use afflatus misery + auspice)


Because Auspice sucks as an "Enspell". Here, have an Enspell that works like an Enspell2 (only procs on first hit of a round) but doesn't even have the increasing dmg/hit aspect that makes Enspell2s worth using in the first place!

Note: If you ask most RDMs, Enspell2s are generally considered to be lolworthy even WITH their increasing dmg/hit.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 10:31am by Fynlar
#24 Jan 06 2011 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:

Because sometimes you don't need all those frills, and what you need is just sheer MP?

I don't know why people are having such a hard time understanding this. It's pretty much the same thing as the /BLM and /SMN debates from yesteryear. /BLM carries more utility; /SMN carries slightly more MP. Depending on what you need, you pick a sub. What's so damn hard to figure out here?


And I don't understand your point of view because I don't have MP issues :). I think in part the reason I don't have MP issues is because I use SCH sub. But honestly, if it works for you, it works. I found way back that /SMN was only ever useful for me in Dynamis. I swore by /BLM for everything except that.

Overall though /SCH offers WHM more than any other sub. Situationally, you may opt for something else.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 10:27am by eldelphia
#25 Jan 06 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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And I don't understand your point of view because I don't have MP issues :). I think in part the reason I don't have MP issues is because I use SCH sub.


Nah, you don't have MP issues because

1) Abyssea gives you a sh*t ton of refresh
2) Anything not in Abyssea is too damned easy now

Honestly, you can go subless for most things nowadays and you'll still have no problems.

Still though, if you can't encounter ANY scenario where your MP doesn't get taxed, you haven't been in enough nasty scenarios.
#26 Jan 07 2011 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Dunno, I guess we're just lucky? You're right though, in Abyssea its crazy. Three Lunar abyssites = Allure, Minnikin and then either Rescuer or another fresh/hp atma.

Rani kinda taxed my MP but only to the point it got down to 400. That was with Allure and Minnikin. Honestly with Rescuer I doubt it would have gotten that low but I needed and HP atma. More though, that comes from having a ghorn bard and a rdm in with 2 WHMs for that fight. If we hadn't had the bard it would have been an issue. But then converting mid that fight would have been stupid. Ghorn bard is definitely NOT standard for us. Didn't touch devotion.

I work on capping out my efficiency per cure a lot. I now have capped Cure potency in each cure, keep using blessed where I can for faster recast timers etc etc. Saving 10% off each cure and off the recast etc = win.

Will be interesting if they take 'God mode' off us and put us in a new area where the normal mobs can eat you for breakfast. I'm guessing the subs will change situationally a lot more then.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:44am by eldelphia
#27 Jan 08 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Just a quick question since i don't have rescuer because i don't have heroes, does the rescuer atma count towards cure potency cap?
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#28 Jan 09 2011 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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Binckly wrote:
Just a quick question since i don't have rescuer because i don't have heroes, does the rescuer atma count towards cure potency cap?


Apparently it does not.
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#29 Jan 10 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Actually I'm beginning to question that conclusion. I originally thought it was breaking the cap, but my latest calculations show otherwise. I have exactly 50% cure potency on the dot from equipment (Surya+2, Orison+2, Fylgja, Orison Earring, Facio +11, Orison Cape), but when I add Rescuer my Cure V remains exactly the same. If I then remove Orison Earring, it still remains the same.

This is weird because when I first got Rescuer, my cure potency was 3% lower (Orison Cap +1) and the Rescuer atma appeared to raise my potency from 47% to about 53%, suggesting that it's a 5% bonus compounded on the equipment potency and outside the equipment cap.

Since the latest testing I did... I'm not so sure I didn't mess up the math somehow originally. I think it warrants further testing.
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#30 Jan 11 2011 at 6:29 AM Rating: Good
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That, or they ninja fixed it.... I have a run tonight. Maybe I can test as I can hit 50% now. (Surya's +2, Orison Cap +2, Orison Cape, Roundel and Facio with 10%)



Edited, Jan 11th 2011 7:30am by eldelphia
#31 Jan 15 2011 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Pergatory wrote:
eldelphia wrote:
Hmm, reading some interesting arguments on /BLM on BG (in a completely irrelevant thread of course). Start from this post

While I agree that Stun is pretty useful, I don't agree with the passion with which this person vilifies the other subs. I see /BLM as situational again, whereas it had been pretty much obsolete since the introduction of /SCH. However, you pretty much need a BLM for 2/3 of the stuff in Abyssea anyway if you want to trigger yellow, so you should have stun covered on the most devastating of moves. WHM should never be the primary stun, because the time when stun should be cast is also very close to the time heals should be cast.

This person thinks they are only giving up a fraction of a second to their Cure casting by losing Light Arts, but it's more than that. If Stun comes a fraction of a second too late, the WHM will have to wait a couple seconds before they can start casting Cure. With MP being such a non-issue, and so much fast cast being available or even Quick Magic (which is freakin awesome), the best thing a WHM can do now is land big Cures immediately after a high-damage move is done. When I say immediately, I mean before the mob has a chance to take a single melee swing after its WS. After a devastating move, your Cure V should land before a single point of damage is dealt again. If you are busy trying to stun, that isn't going to happen. Leave stunning to the support mages, WHM has one job: keep people alive. There are times when Stun suits that goal, but it's far from universal like this person seems to think. Front-line jobs have so much HP now that WHM really shines, and this person doesn't seem to realize how much power all that extra HP and our unlimited MP really gives us.


That i can't agree with. I do abyssea in 5 man static. Me as WHM/BLM. Maybe it's just our tank is good enough to hold his own or we just mesh well, but I can stand there and wait for bosses/NMs to use abilities to stun it. Briareus, I can keep from using any major abilities without fail. I can't think of any NM /Boss we have failed to yet or where I have ran out MP.

I'm still a big fan of /BLM and I don't see myself changing anytime soon. I try to cater my gear towards Conserve MP where I can. Granted I will admit I don't have a fully lvl'd SCH sub to play with but I just tend to find myself being old school and hard to change.
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#32 Jan 15 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kolvar wrote:
Pergatory wrote:
WHM should never be the primary stun, because the time when stun should be cast is also very close to the time heals should be cast.


That i can't agree with. I do abyssea in 5 man static. Me as WHM/BLM. Maybe it's just our tank is good enough to hold his own or we just mesh well, but I can stand there and wait for bosses/NMs to use abilities to stun it. Briareus, I can keep from using any major abilities without fail. I can't think of any NM /Boss we have failed to yet or where I have ran out MP.

You just disagreed with me without even addressing my point. :( I never said Stun wasn't useful or couldn't be used effectively by WHM, nor did I say /BLM wouldn't be adequate to keep a tank alive in Abyssea (/WAR could do it in most cases). That just kinda proves you didn't even really read my post.

Reactive duties (e.g. tanking, healing, stunning) are all about reaction time, and you're stacking two reactive abilities with similar timing onto the same person. That person can be very easily placed in a situation where both Stun and Cures would be tremendously useful and they have to choose which one to cast. If you have a different mage on Stun duty, they can Stun while you Cure.

Again, if you actually read my post, you'll see I agreed that /BLM is once again a useful sub. In fact I was the first on this forum to point out that /BLM may make a return at 90 due to Stun. But to call it "far and away the best SJ you can run with" is a laugh. Stun alone does not a SJ make. /SCH offers so much more, not just from an MP standpoint but faster casting, stronger enfeebles, stronger barspells, sleep immunity, Accession, Celerity, etc. /BLM is a one-trick pony, situationally awesome but still just that: situational. I'd use it only if there were no other stunners available and I was fighting something that really needs a stun (like Bria's Colossal, as you mentioned). Most of the time though we have a BLM or RDM/BLM doing it in my groups. So far the only time I've done it was when duoing with just a MNK and myself.
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#33 Jan 19 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Still though, if you can't encounter ANY scenario where your MP doesn't get taxed, you haven't been in enough nasty scenarios.


I can't think of any modern situation where your MP would be taxed to the point where Convert is necessary and desirable. I run a linkshell where we do virtually everything in small groups, including Dynamis, and /SCH is blatantly superior there as much as it is in nearly all Abyssea situations.

Doing Xarcabard at 85 for Shadow gear, we would go with ~5 melee, 2 BLM, 2 WHM, and a THF. The other White Mage in our group chose to /RDM for Dynamis all the time. She was CONSTANTLY out of MP and forced to Convert while I was sitting on a solid MP pool and two Stratagems. Not having access to weather meant that her Cures suffered from potency loss, which can create other problems besides just costing more MP for the same amount of HP Cured; Aspirga during many pulls meant a free MP pool, compared to the cost of Converting. This amongst myriad other issues that seem to accompany any White Mage that I've seen /RDM.

Admittedly, Dynamis is easymode these days, and we do cities with 5 or 6 people now so this might not be a great example, but if it isn't then what is? If MP isn't an issue in Abyssea, and it's been illustrated that it's not an issue outside of Abyssea, then when is /RDM beneficial?

Put simply, it's not. The only time /RDM should ever be considered is in situations where you need Dispel constantly or must Refresh another player and don't have a Red Mage available.

Also, as a quick note, Atma of the Rescuer definitely does count as gear Potency, but it offers the ability to do some interesting things with your gear. With Rescuer, you can finish casting in big chunks of Mind (I substituted Marduk's Jubbah in for Aristocrat's) or bits of -Enmity that you might not have been able to before.
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#34 Mar 14 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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Ohai, old thread that I completely forgot about.

Quote:
I can't think of any modern situation where your MP would be taxed to the point where Convert is necessary and desirable.


I've been in several of those situations inside Abyssea of all places. These are the kind of NMs where you're pretty much alternating Cure 5/6 nonstop; these can still gradually run down your MP even with 20/tic from atma. What can I say; MNKs sink a lot of damage when they aren't countering.

Getting Orison pants +2 helped me a lot in this regard, because it drastically cut down the overall cost of all those spammed Cures.

Quote:
Doing Xarcabard at 85 for Shadow gear, we would go with ~5 melee, 2 BLM, 2 WHM, and a THF. The other White Mage in our group chose to /RDM for Dynamis all the time. She was CONSTANTLY out of MP and forced to Convert while I was sitting on a solid MP pool and two Stratagems.


This could be for a myriad of reasons other than the subs. For instance, based on how you were apparently "sitting" on your MP, I could say that she was having more MP problems than you because she was the one doing the majority of the work.

Anecdotes like this are kinda useless without more info.

Quote:
Aspirga during many pulls meant a free MP pool, compared to the cost of Converting. This amongst myriad other issues that seem to accompany any White Mage that I've seen /RDM.


Obviously, Aspirga would be a huge reason to use /SCH. However, it's really not all that often that you get to use this to great effect (I'd call Dynamis an exception rather than the rule).

Against solitary strong NMs against which you cannot land reliable Aspirs, /SCH loses a lot of its ground.
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#35 Mar 15 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Obviously, Aspirga would be a huge reason to use /SCH. However, it's really not all that often that you get to use this to great effect (I'd call Dynamis an exception rather than the rule).

Against solitary strong NMs against which you cannot land reliable Aspirs, /SCH loses a lot of its ground.

At the same time, /SCH gains a lot of ground on solitary strong NMs via stronger enfeebs & stronger barspells (and possibly stronger Auspice depending on how skill affects it). This is especially significant if you haven't re-capped your skills since reaching Lv90.

I'll be honest, I've never once done an AOE Aspir on /SCH. I don't really see it as being one of the reasons to sub SCH. If you can find a situation to use it, awesome, I bet it's great, but it's not a staple of the job. It's a gimmick. The main reason I've never done it before is because any situation where I could potentially do it, I am never low on MP. Partially probably because Dynamis is one of the few rare times in FFXI where I do actually use WHM/RDM. MP spending happens in fits in Dynamis... you can go 30 minutes without spending any significant MP and then suddenly need 3000 MP within the span of 5 minutes. I've found that /RDM handles those sorts of spike demands better, especially when I don't have any ballads or anything like that to keep my MP up.

Honestly though, as I add more and more refresh to my idle gear on WHM, it's seeming less and less likely I'll ever sub RDM again...
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#36 Mar 15 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Ohai, old thread that I completely forgot about.

Quote:
I can't think of any modern situation where your MP would be taxed to the point where Convert is necessary and desirable.


I've been in several of those situations inside Abyssea of all places. These are the kind of NMs where you're pretty much alternating Cure 5/6 nonstop; these can still gradually run down your MP even with 20/tic from atma. What can I say; MNKs sink a lot of damage when they aren't countering.

Getting Orison pants +2 helped me a lot in this regard, because it drastically cut down the overall cost of all those spammed Cures.



I agree that the Orison pants are a godsend but I still really find it hard to believe that /SCH doesn't beat out /RDM inside Abyssea. /shrug it really isn't the experience I've had. As /SCH boosts me in so many other ways including the automatic 10% reduction in cost, the Penury, the Conserve MP etc, let alone the rest (skills, fast cast etc) and every time I experiment with /RDM I find it dismal in comparison.

I am often the only WHM and am always in the 'tank' party. Our tanks are MNK and PLD. I do Salvage with twin MNK tanks. We do every NM in the Abyssea zones. Some are bitchier than others (/rage Pantokrator). I can't think of a single situation where /RDM would have been better. I certainly didn't have time to go and convert.

/shrug ~ I really find it hard to believe that /RDM comes anywhere close. In my experience those who stick with /RDM are somewhat resistant to /SCH and find it tough to level. Often they already have RDM sub and don't see why they should bother. But when you're stuck in a situation where an NM is spamming AoE debuffs and between Esuna and Accession you can keep them clear rather than have to single spam - I don't see the use for /RDM.

I'm sure you've levelled and used both Fyn, just my experience is so wildly different I find it hard to believe we play the same job sometimes :)


Edited, Mar 15th 2011 12:44pm by eldelphia
#37 Mar 15 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
MP spending happens in fits in Dynamis... you can go 30 minutes without spending any significant MP and then suddenly need 3000 MP within the span of 5 minutes. I've found that /RDM handles those sorts of spike demands better, especially when I don't have any ballads or anything like that to keep my MP up.


This is pretty much exactly how I find playing WHM in general nowadays. Not just in Dynamis (I don't even do Dynamis)
#38 Mar 15 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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I have used /rdm three times, and they were all 3 different situations. I was just testing the water. I personally did not like /RDM at all because lack of /sch JA's. I often abuse accession for numerous things (paralyna/silena/stoneskin) or penury when i know I will be using cure5/6 soon.

I started using /NIN more often now, and I'm starting to grow fond of it. I typically use it in a trio, or when I've been duoing Briareus' with a friend. I lack major TP/WS armor, but I can still do ~1.1-2k Hexa Strike with Molva Maul/lolvodun mace (I need a better offhand) with VV/RR/MM Atmas. Previously, I felt like I was just sitting there waiting for my duo/trio partners to take damage, so I started to /nin and just joined them in the front lines. Doing so has sped up most fights tremendously
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#39 Mar 15 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Have not posted in a while, don;t get on here much anymore.

Anywho, personally for me, i perfer /Sch. For things like campaign, its /Rdm all the way, as Phalanx is useful when soloing the mobs in there, and gives you a better defense than anything /Sch can give you. Or when Buffing NPCs, refresh, regen 4, blow through 1k Mp, convert, do it again.

For Abyssea, which i have not done all that much of, And Dyna, i prefer /Sch however.

I still don't have any Atma activated, i have a few, but again, i have not done all that much abyssea, kinda went away for a few months.
But for Dyna, i am Definatly enjoying Stoneskinga, and Regen3ga, and the occasional, suicidal Aspirga. Accession and the Dark version (i forget the name XD) are both a nice tool to all to a Whm.

I tend to be in melee parties, where as was said above, i go in fits with MP. Sometimes i'll sit there for 15 mins and only throw out a curaga every few mins, while other times i'll be sitting in double digits. Having sublimation sitting there, as well as AoE Aspir as an Option, are Quite Nice. Yes refresh and Convert would both be options, but i also like that my Enh and Enf skills are boosted. They give me Stoneskinga, and my Enfeebles all that much more power.

I think its a personal Opinion, If you wanna go /Sch or /Rdm its up to your playstyle. If you have a Rdm in your party, subbing Rdm yourself if somewhat less needed. But if you are solo, if you feel better with /Sch, go for it, if you like /Rdm better, hey, whatever makes you happy :D
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#40 Jun 17 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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I'm just returning after two years off so I might be wrong here... but doesn't it only take like a day or two to level a job from 0 to 45? Why not spend the tiny amount of "effort" to have both RDM and SCH available to you as subs? I just seems like the people arguing against it don't even have it levelled up.

I'm not a whm or a sch - just an observer.

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#41 Jun 17 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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It takes more than a day or two generally to level a sub. You could leech your way through in a day or two with the help of some friends, but actually keeping semi-up-to-date equipment and leveling "the right way" still takes time. You're absolutely right though, any serious WHM should, at the very least, have SCH, RDM, and BLM subs leveled. All three have their uses.

I'd also agree that it seems like most people who argue for /RDM or /BLM being equal to /SCH do not have /SCH leveled. While all three look close on paper, making it seem like a utility versus efficiency trade-off, every WHM I've talked to who has honestly used all three subs agrees that WHM/SCH works much better in practice than it does on paper, while WHM/RDM actually works worse in practice than on paper.
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#42 Jun 18 2011 at 6:29 AM Rating: Default
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Maybe I'm not seeing the point of this thread, because there's no clear 100% right answer. I leveled RDM as a sub for COR before I decided to level WHM...honestly if I stuck with that as my only sub for WHM, I'd still be fine today. You can tell me SCH is better for this and that but I've never failed to cure people because I was on RDM sub and not SCH.

Now, I did end up leveling SCH for more options, and today I find myself defaulting to that. Light Arts is nice but it's nothing I ever notice...it's mostly notable for the strategems more than anything else it offers. But even that is a step ahead of RDM, which offers little outside of Refresh (Convert being only useful if you've completely run dry on MP). And to be fair, SCH isn't the most enjoyable job to level, especially after you've leveled RDM....the two jobs are just too similar, at least IMO.

/BLM is so situational that I would never fault a WHM for not having that as a sub. It's like having /BRD for procs...if you have it, great. If not, whatever...it's not going to stop you from doing your main job.
#43 Jun 18 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
/BLM is so situational that I would never fault a WHM for not having that as a sub. It's like having /BRD for procs...if you have it, great. If not, whatever...it's not going to stop you from doing your main job.


Over the years, I've found many uses for ES+Sleepga, personally. It's nowhere near as restricted in use as a BLM main having /BRD for grellows (although honestly nowadays, they really should have it)

I'm less tolerant of unleveled subs now than I ever was before, because low levels are just so damned easy now.
#44 Jun 20 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
/BLM is so situational that I would never fault a WHM for not having that as a sub. It's like having /BRD for procs...if you have it, great. If not, whatever...it's not going to stop you from doing your main job.


Over the years, I've found many uses for ES+Sleepga, personally. It's nowhere near as restricted in use as a BLM main having /BRD for grellows (although honestly nowadays, they really should have it)

I'm less tolerant of unleveled subs now than I ever was before, because low levels are just so damned easy now.


For low-man situations, maybe. Otherwise Repose does the job fine. You still get Sleep as a RDM and SCH sub, and that plus Repose means you can keep two mobs slept at a time. Either way, I still find /BLM very situational...it has it's uses, but you can argue most subs do.

#45 Jun 20 2011 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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For low-man situations, maybe. Otherwise Repose does the job fine.


Repose can't be AoE'd and doesn't have multiple tiers, so no, it isn't "fine" for the scenarios I'm thinking of.

Also, it's worth noting that "low-man situations" are pretty much the only sort of valid situations in the game anymore. Now, more than ever, you can't just always expect someone else to cover this base for you if it's needed.

One thing I will give to /SCH's credit nowadays on the sleeping front, though -- now that we're past 80, Manifestation is subbable, which allows WHM/SCH to "Sleepga". I still don't like how it requires you to switch arts and blow all 2 of your 2 available stratagem charges to use it, though...

Quote:
You still get Sleep as a RDM and SCH sub


Sleep is too cumbersome to use as /SCH for it to count, really.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 12:22am by Fynlar
#46 Jun 23 2011 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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*Cough*

It's the same situation as /BLM vs /SMN, then later /SMN vs /SCH. People are loath to change habits, and even more loath to admit that they should. All three subs have their use's (/BLM, /RDM, /SCH) and any good healer will have all three available. As a RDM I know ~exactly~ what /SCH offers, I abuse the living sh!t out of that sub whenever I'm in "mage mode" for a group. My Alt that I dualbox is a Mithra WHM that I pretty much use exclusively as a healer. As a WHM I've learned to use both /SCH and /RDM and its really different things for different situations. WHM/RDM is about cure spam pure and simple. It's for those situations where your going Cure V -> Cure V -> Cure VI (V isn't ready yet) -> Cure V and so forth because the NM your fight just has atrocious damage output. NM's inside abyssea can hit for 450+ and crit for 800~1K, special moves for 1.5 ~ 2K aoe. The new VNM's are also crazy strong, especially the Tier III and IV's. Their just like Abyssea NM's but you don't have any of the crour / atma support. Also your race has a serious impact on this, Taru's struggle to get enough HP to justify convert.

Inside abyssea my WHM/RDM has 1900~2K HP and MP with MM / Alure / Apoc (Apoc is mandatory no questions no exceptions). I've blown through all 2K, converted then blown through another 1K all in the span of a single NM fight. Outside of abyssea it gets worse as there is no crazy +MP/tick refresh. We were doing the four armed crazy Tier IV VNM, had three WHM's with two being /RDM and one being /SCH. Within 5min all three were hurting for MP, the two /RDM were able to truck on but the /SCH hit rock bottom and had to sit out and rest up, this directly effected our ability as we had to have half the DD's stand in the back and wait on MP. All three of these WHM's have full +2, maxed cure potency and are godly WHM's. This NM fight is just ~that~ bad. Extremely enclosed space, heavy aoe's, crazy damage resistance, and the ability to attack behind itself. In a fight like that pure MP and cure power is needed.

On the flip side of that coin, /SCH is godly for aoeing stuff and when your MP isn't being depleted at record speed and you have some sort of RDM / BRD / COR refresh. It adds more flexibility. In XP groups, or low level NM farming (seals / +2 items) it works great. And /BLM is for stun and warp 2. There are times when your group will be running several different zones that day. Being able to spam D2 on people will save the lone BLM time and get your group moving faster. This especially applies if your group is just doing weak stuff like zone boss's or +1/+2 (non hero's) farming.

So basically, everything is situational, have all three and learn to play effectively on all three.
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#47 Jun 23 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Inside abyssea my WHM/RDM has 1900~2K HP and MP with MM / Alure / Apoc (Apoc is mandatory no questions no exceptions). I've blown through all 2K, converted then blown through another 1K all in the span of a single NM fight.


Idk what NM fight this was, but in most cases I would advise not using Allure. If you're abusing Cure 5/6 like you should be, hate is almost never a concern unless the mob does a hate reset, and even then in most cases you can get hate back with as little as a Provoke. This has been my experience, and I never use Allure.
#48 Jun 24 2011 at 1:27 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Inside abyssea my WHM/RDM has 1900~2K HP and MP with MM / Alure / Apoc (Apoc is mandatory no questions no exceptions). I've blown through all 2K, converted then blown through another 1K all in the span of a single NM fight.


Idk what NM fight this was, but in most cases I would advise not using Allure. If you're abusing Cure 5/6 like you should be, hate is almost never a concern unless the mob does a hate reset, and even then in most cases you can get hate back with as little as a Provoke. This has been my experience, and I never use Allure.


Max MP+ for the aforementioned Cure spam, and MND+ for increasing MP=>HP efficiency of Cure V/VI?
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#49 Jun 24 2011 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Kaegos wrote:
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Inside abyssea my WHM/RDM has 1900~2K HP and MP with MM / Alure / Apoc (Apoc is mandatory no questions no exceptions). I've blown through all 2K, converted then blown through another 1K all in the span of a single NM fight.


Idk what NM fight this was, but in most cases I would advise not using Allure. If you're abusing Cure 5/6 like you should be, hate is almost never a concern unless the mob does a hate reset, and even then in most cases you can get hate back with as little as a Provoke. This has been my experience, and I never use Allure.


Max MP+ for the aforementioned Cure spam, and MND+ for increasing MP=>HP efficiency of Cure V/VI?


*Ding Ding* we have a winner.

Alure is +30% MP +30MND -30 Enmity

The -enmity I couldn't care less about. The MND is pretty nice but not instrumental, the +MP is godly. Reaching 2K/2K or rather a perfect 1:1 ratio is importent and alure lets me do that with crour buffs. With MM, self-refresh and a 1mp/tick body I'm already sitting at 14mp/tick, another 5 isn't going to make much different when I'm blowing through the MP pool like that. In those situations it's about how long can you sustain cure bombing people when the boss starts throwing down Gates of Hades, Archeon Flame, or various other OMGWTF moves.

Typically I'm in one of two situations.
#1 I'm WAR/NIN or BLU/NIN and I'm using my WHM as cure support for low manning seals and what not. I tend to take hate easily and just face tank most NM's until we proced what we needed to proc.

#2 I'm with the shell and we're fighting a super NM for body +2 items, or Lv 90 emp weapon items. Occasionally doing some other crazy thing. For stuff like +2 farming or lv85 Emp weapons, honestly it doesn't matter what my healers sub is, we just blow through those things so easily.

So as you can see I'm rarely having to do long-term endurance healing, mostly its just short-term cure bomb sprinting. This is the big reason I /RDM most of the time, being able to convert and instantly having another 2K MP has been critical more times then I can count. This includes temp item spamming. If I had to do a long-term MP burn then I'd be /SCH, especially if there was a form of refresh nearby.
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#50 Jun 24 2011 at 4:05 AM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
*Cough*

It's the same situation as /BLM vs /SMN, then later /SMN vs /SCH. People are loath to change habits, and even more loath to admit that they should. All three subs have their use's (/BLM, /RDM, /SCH) and any good healer will have all three available.


Agreed.

Quote:
Inside abyssea my WHM/RDM has 1900~2K HP and MP with MM / Alure / Apoc (Apoc is mandatory no questions no exceptions). I've blown through all 2K, converted then blown through another 1K all in the span of a single NM fight.


Disagree. MM sure, I don't think anyone will disagree with you on that. I just don't get Apoc for WHMs, sorry. Allure, I kinda get that and do use it but its always the first one to drop out. Surely if you're having MP issues you want more refresh and more efficiency with cure potency? If you can cap out cure potency at 50% and have the EAF body +2 using rescuer you should be doing that. Of course if you can hit 49% without then ok, you don't need Rescuer (many people can't) So use the second refresh/fast cast atma... and Allure. I agree on short, fast fights like some of the old style KSNM etc that Max MP was useful but you're so underestimating the staying power of /SCH and not helping yourself with bad atma choices.

I really can't see where and on what inside Abyssea you're blowing your MP so fast that RDM is necessary. There are some nasty fights but they are not ones in which I can ever forsee a point where its safe to convert... I.e. you backing off to vert or even taking the time, could be problematic.


Quote:
Outside of abyssea it gets worse as there is no crazy +MP/tick refresh.


Totally agree.


Quote:
In a fight like that pure MP and cure power is needed.


Now I disagree. What you need is more efficiency and teamwork.


Quote:
So basically, everything is situational, have all three and learn to play effectively on all three.


I agree with you but I haven't yet found a situation for me personally where I actively find /RDM better. I just really haven't. Maybe I will when we hit Tier IV Voidwatch, I'll certainly look out for it. It just sounds like you have a completely different playstyle and group setup and I find our different approaches, different.

I am a 90 WHM, RDM and SCH, I like all 3 jobs (though rarely play SCH right now, also having BLM). There has not been a moment where I've thought 'Hmm, /RDM would be better here' but when I've played /RDM I've often wished I was on /SCH.

This is definitely a case of your mileage may vary :)


Edited, Jun 24th 2011 6:06am by eldelphia
#51 Jun 24 2011 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Disagree. MM sure, I don't think anyone will disagree with you on that. I just don't get Apoc for WHMs, sorry. Allure, I kinda get that and do use it but its always the first one to drop out. Surely if you're having MP issues you want more refresh and more efficiency with cure potency? If you can cap out cure potency at 50% and have the EAF body +2 using rescuer you should be doing that. Of course if you can hit 49% without then ok, you don't need Rescuer (many people can't) So use the second refresh/fast cast atma... and Allure. I agree on short, fast fights like some of the old style KSNM etc that Max MP was useful but you're so underestimating the staying power of /SCH and not helping yourself with bad atma choices.

I really can't see where and on what inside Abyssea you're blowing your MP so fast that RDM is necessary. There are some nasty fights but they are not ones in which I can ever forsee a point where its safe to convert... I.e. you backing off to vert or even taking the time, could be problematic.


Apoc is a no brainer when we step out of the world of theory and into what happens. Always on auto-reraise is a godsend for any healer, no more "it got dispelled" or having it drop in the middle of a dangerous fight. Most if not all of the dangerous NM's use dispellga and you will get him by it. Many NM's have various dispel moves, those can eat your RR. That coupled with high damage aoe's means there is a decent chance of your death occurring, being able to raise up, even if in a weakened state can save a fight gone bad. Then you have a 10~15% (haven't seen it confirmed on either way yet) chance of insta-casting any spell, including the much spammed cure V with no recast. From a strategic point of view, Apoc is a must for all healers and tanks, and highly recommended for all melee's.

I use Alure because its +30% MP pure and simple. That combined with crour buffs allow's my healer to get 2K/2K, a perfect convert ratio. As a RDM I can't overstate how important having a perfect convert ratio is to the usefulness of convert. Having less MP means wasted potential, and when your throwing out that much MP it's really worth it.

As for the fights, maybe people are unfamiliar with how we deal with things. We're not a (MNK + WHM) group we're not a low-man group. We try to bring at least 18 people on each run, if we have more they form a side party or are used to swap out with others when they have to go. When we kill NM's we don't just do "one or two", we do 15~18 if not more and we try to do the fight as fast as possible. We have to get emp weapons for every single member of our shell along full +2 on their main / second jobs, that equals alot of fighting and we've been pretty successful. I'll use one of our runs for example, last week we did 18+ Apademak's for one of our Almace users. We don't like wasting brews on NM's that we can fight regularly, thus we straight fight Apademak. IDK if you've ever fought him but e's fcking crazy. We need to bang out 75 horns or 40 ~ 50 fights per Almace user, we have six Almace user's with a few more left. At the same time we would like to proc Yellow for the +2 items. Lots of firepower is brought to this fight, we have Ukko's Furry going off from two of our WAR's, CDC and HI's being fired off, and our RNG is throwing down Jishnu's Radiance from on top the ledge. With this many melee's and this much firepower involved, the healing requirements are astronomical. We bring three WHM's minimum, and sometimes four (if that's how the numbers work for the night), their cure bombing everyone and removing status ailments at break neck pace as the BLM's rotate stuns while trying to proc Yellow.

This is slightly different from a MNK / NIN / THF / DNC slowly plinking something to death while a WHM stands back and keeps them alive for 20 min while the procers just sit back (to avoid TP spam). Yeah its different but this method turns out a ton of loot for everyone and it's been working so far (26 weapons gained so far).
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
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