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So where are we with Sub Jobs?Follow

#1 Dec 13 2010 at 5:23 AM Rating: Good
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I noticed my response to another thread was rated down because I mentioned I still prefer to use /SCH over /RDM. Especially since Abyssea renders refresh rates almost irrelevant. I prefer the overall bonuses from /SCH. I.e. the recast/casting time/reduced MP cost/conserve mp and boost to skill. Let alone celerity, which has saved my **** more than once or twice. I guess Fast Cast II balances out with light arts.

I have level 90 (must update sig) on RDM and WHM and will shortly have on BLM, SCH, SMN etc. Am I missing something? I don't have MP issues inside or out of Abyssea. Granted I have some of the best gear for WHM there is which helps a lot but I don't find myself ever wanting to sub RDM, even though its available to me. I have tried it, and I miss /SCH.

/RDM

Gravity
Sleep
Phalanx
Refresh
Dispel
Convert
Fast Cast II

/SCH

Light Arts :- Optimizes white magic capability while lowering black magic proficiency. Grants a bonus to divine, enhancing, enfeebling, and healing magic. Also grants access to Stratagems.
Penury
Celerity
Accession
Sleep
Dispel
Sublimation

I guess I really don't get why Light Arts doesn't beat anything else hands down. 10% cheaper spells all round... let alone boosted skills. And you can't argue with accession...

Why are you subbing RDM?


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#2 Dec 13 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't have MP issues


This is mainly why you're not seeing /RDM as useful. /RDM is for sheer MP.
#3 Dec 13 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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I don't have MP issues


This is mainly why you're not seeing /RDM as useful. /RDM is for sheer MP.


I don't really buy that. I don't know, I'd think you'd save more MP in the long term using /SCH with the constant cost reduction and the occasional Conserve MP/Penury Proc. And inside Abyssea (which is where we all seem to live) MP issues are irrelevant honestly. Ok, I'm sitting on three atma now but even with one... I found I didn't need a refresher for most things.

I don't get why peeps would want to drop the buffs to skills for example. I enfeeble/use barspells and the bonus from Light Arts really helps. It costs you nothing to use Sub (should you be unsupported) and yet 40MP to cast Refresh. 50 ticks of 3mp is 150MP? (Forgive me if I'm getting my numbers wrong, I'll happily be corrected). 110 MP over 2.5 mins. There is immediacy I guess of Convert but that also puts you in a pretty dangerous situation.

Sublimation isn't as good as refresh insofar as you can't rest with it up without a stoneskin, even though our autoregen it doesn't hit us hard in the HP stakes. At least now it will be noticably quicker to charge.

The way I see it is RDM is a perfectly viable sub for WHM, just not the best one and nothing I've seen or experienced so far changes my opinion on that. I guess I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

Are Elvaan and Galka really that MP deprived? I'm hume, not taru so I'm pretty well off on the MP stakes but I only have one piece of convert gear. With the efficiency you can achieve on cures right now, I don't think MP is really an issue anywhere is it?

I'm genuinely bemused.
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#4 Dec 13 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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I'm with you eldelphia. /SCH for life. I love the extra bonus to my skills. People think /RDM nets more MP in the long run but it's just not true. It's situational. /RDM is really all about regaining MP through Convert and Refresh. The MP you get from /RDM is fixed based on your HP/MP ratio when you Convert. /SCH isn't about recovering MP, it's about never spending it in the first place, thus anything you get to add to your MP compounds with it.

I've done the math before and it's not hard to figure on about 25% average MP savings from /SCH alone compared to /RDM. 25% doesn't seem like a lot, especially in the face of a fresh MP pool every 10 minutes, but here's the important part many people don't realize: that figure affects not just the MP you start the battle with, it also affects MP you gain during the battle. If you rest 100 MP, it's like resting 125 MP on /SCH. If you are getting 20 MP/tick from atma, then it's like getting 25 MP/tick on /SCH. This is why it suddenly feels like you burn MP so much faster when you change to /RDM, because you are.



Also, just wanted to point out that /BLM is officially back in the fold. Most people overlooked the fact that it gained a particularly useful spell at 45: Stun. MP being such a non-issue in Abyssea, utility becomes more and more useful. I could see WHM/BLM being really nice for low-manning in Abyssea. That's another problem with /RDM is that it doesn't have a lot of utility. Dispel, Refresh, and Gravity are about it. Phalanx is overrated in my opinion. /SCH has utility such as Sublimation for sleep immunity, Light Arts for stronger barspells and enfeebs, or Celerity for Raise-fests.
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#5 Dec 13 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I exclusively go WHM/SCH and don't really see the appeal of /RDM except for a handful of situations (mostly low-manning). I can count the number of times I have used RDM as a sub for WHM on one hand, and every time, I too wished I was /SCH. Inside (and generally outside as well) of Abyssea, MP is an non-issue. Yes, I am a taru, but I don't really gear for MP. Inside Abyssea, with MM and another 5/tic Refresh atma (or VV for Staff WS triggers) I can main heal with Cure V and VI with the only restriction being recast timers. I rarely spend MP to the point that I was wishing for Convert, and even if I were to run out, there are still spent of cruor meds to quickly (and safely) replenish MP. A decent Cure Potency set (I'm sitting at 44% without Light Obi equipped) really helps get the most out of a single Cure spell, which combined with Light Art's 10% MP/Cast/Recast Reduction really helps a WHM heal efficiently.

On Ragnarok, I notice a lot of WHM/BLMs running around (in parties, events, etc.) and I always wonder why. Outside of a few utility spells (Stun @90, Bind, Sleep, etc.), BLM doesn't offer much since Converse MP is also a SCH trait. RDM is a bit more respectable as a sub since its main utility spells (Gravity, Bind, Sleep, Dispel, etc.), combined with Fast Cast tiers, Convert, and Refresh are nice for low-man situations. However, /SCH is enough for me to personally since I can Accession + Stoneskin my party, plus all of the benefits listed by Eldelphia and Pergatory.

RDM is a decent option, and if someone feels more comfortable with it, to each his/her own. However, once the basics of /SCH are learned, it really does save a lot of MP in addition to boosting other aspects of WHM.

(P.S.: As a fellow WHM-enthusiast, I really enjoy reading your blog and seeing all the WHM (and other mage gear) you acquire Eldelphia. ^^ I have taken a lot of tips from your gear builds and receive a good deal of compliments on my WHM. Keep up the great work!)
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#6 Dec 14 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't really buy that. I don't know, I'd think you'd save more MP in the long term using /SCH with the constant cost reduction and the occasional Conserve MP/Penury Proc


Nope, Convert and Refresh wins out for sheer MP.

Thing is, in Abyssea, it's mostly a moot point.
#7 Dec 14 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Default
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Nope, Convert and Refresh wins out for sheer MP.

Except with sublimation, you can (in a sense) gain mp even if your MP pool is full. Also, at 90+ /sch sublimation is 3 mp/tick. Idk if you included that in your calculation or not.

About the only time I use /rdm is when I solo, and even then it's just so I can put up phalanx (and sometimes Bio II) and not worry about keeping utsusemi up.
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#8 Dec 14 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Except with sublimation, you can (in a sense) gain mp even if your MP pool is full.


If your MP is full, you hardly need to be worried about lack of MP, now do you?

Oh, and as long as we're going to make comparisons like that, here's one for you -- having a Convert waiting to be used is like having an extra full MP pool waiting in the wings, unlike a charged Sublimation which will only be a portion of said pool.


Quote:
Also, at 90+ /sch sublimation is 3 mp/tick. Idk if you included that in your calculation or not.


Actually, I hadn't. Doesn't change much though; like I said Refresh is hardly even worth using anymore in Abyssea due to all the MP/tic you can get already that doesn't require constant reapplication. Convert is what really matters for /RDM.

If you really wanted to milk each sub for everything they've got though, Refresh would still be used, and it would still mostly match Sublimation.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 3:43am by Fynlar
#9 Dec 14 2010 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
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I think everyone gets that RDM is ok as a sub but you're missing out on a fair bit from /SCH. Accession is pretty amazing if you don't have Yagrush for example. The thing I really love about /SCH though is the boost to skill and the ability to celerity+raise mid fight without killing your tank.

I think /BLM is making a comeback because being able to sub Stun and have Warp/Warp II is bloody useful.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 5:09am by eldelphia
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#10 Dec 14 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with ya on /sch, Elph. I have /rdm leveled but mostly for the blm. I've only used /rdm on whm twice; once was in limbus in a lowman situation, the other was when I was soloing Distorter of Time. Needed the fresh/convert there and /sch didn't quite cut it for the mission for some reason. (Even with the mission, it took me 4 tries and a asston of meds.)

So yeah. /rdm is situational. Otherwise, my sub is /sch. :)
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#11 Dec 15 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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Don't forget that it also depends on what you're fighting, and Aspirable targets... For the **** of it, I've used aspirga on groups of summoners and their avatars in dynamis after dumping as much mp as I could. I went back to full. Good times. Worms in Abyssea come to mind...
#12 Dec 18 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll throw in my Smiley: twocents.

I don't understand /rdm either. People constantly forget that Refresh is 40mp itself to cast and that you need to cure yourself after Converting, drastically undermining the MP efficiency that people make /rdm out to be. Making full use of /sch and it's abilities and traits nets me far more MP than /rdm ever could. /rdm supporters never seem to realize how much damage mitigation you gain from AOE buffs.

On Aspirable mobs there's not even a comparison.

****'s always situational, though. I've gone whm/rdm a few times out of necessity; recently I've been duo'ing Carabosse and prefer to /rdm so I don't have to remain in Dark Arts for Dispel spam.
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#13 Dec 18 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Decent
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The only time that I regularly sub redmage is when I fight ovni. I gain a little fast cast, but the big (and only) reason why I do so it so I can dispel without having to worry about messing with arts.
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#14 Dec 20 2010 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Hmm, reading some interesting arguments on /BLM on BG (in a completely irrelevant thread of course). Start from this post

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"And am I the only one who thinks assuming Atma of Ambition and /sch are both pretty stupid in the current game? 1 of the 2, at best. If you are fine on MP, /blm is far and away the best SJ you can run with, especially in low-man situations. Who gives a **** about casting a cure faster when you can directly prevent 1000, 2000 or more damage? Are people so blinded by "zomg whm is a healer" that they ignore everything every SJ has to offer? Do you never feel that /nin is a superior choice vs some of these NMs that hate wipe (or like the Uragnite T3 who may very well pop immune to your tank)? Are we really calling the best merits whm has available bad because when we gimp our atma/sj it doesn't do anything for us? I understand you can cap without any of them, and I understand even without atma or /sch or /rdm you can still cap without 5pts (but afaik you still need 2-3)...but I think going whm/sch to Abyssea at the moment is just...silly I guess. And I was one of the biggest advocates of /sch before Abyssea, but 3 atmas with anywhere from 10-20 refresh (in addition to 4 standing refresh available on gear) makes /sch pretty unnecessary imo, whereas stun always has been, and still is amazing. "


Take the tone as you will but essentially is /BLM now more reasonable than /RDM or /SCH? Situationally I totally see the point but sure it depends on whether you have an alliance or a small group. Yes, another stunner is always a good thing. If you're able to sub BLM and stun reliably in a lowman situation, I can completely see it.

Inside Abyssea I think it has a stronger argument than out but you're still losing the casting time/recast and skill bonuses, even if you discount the MP.
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#15 Dec 21 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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eldelphia wrote:
Hmm, reading some interesting arguments on /BLM on BG (in a completely irrelevant thread of course). Start from this post

While I agree that Stun is pretty useful, I don't agree with the passion with which this person vilifies the other subs. I see /BLM as situational again, whereas it had been pretty much obsolete since the introduction of /SCH. However, you pretty much need a BLM for 2/3 of the stuff in Abyssea anyway if you want to trigger yellow, so you should have stun covered on the most devastating of moves. WHM should never be the primary stun, because the time when stun should be cast is also very close to the time heals should be cast.

This person thinks they are only giving up a fraction of a second to their Cure casting by losing Light Arts, but it's more than that. If Stun comes a fraction of a second too late, the WHM will have to wait a couple seconds before they can start casting Cure. With MP being such a non-issue, and so much fast cast being available or even Quick Magic (which is freakin awesome), the best thing a WHM can do now is land big Cures immediately after a high-damage move is done. When I say immediately, I mean before the mob has a chance to take a single melee swing after its WS. After a devastating move, your Cure V should land before a single point of damage is dealt again. If you are busy trying to stun, that isn't going to happen. Leave stunning to the support mages, WHM has one job: keep people alive. There are times when Stun suits that goal, but it's far from universal like this person seems to think. Front-line jobs have so much HP now that WHM really shines, and this person doesn't seem to realize how much power all that extra HP and our unlimited MP really gives us.
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#16 Dec 21 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I played with /blm some yesterday, and it's mixed. There are some things where if you stun their moves they just throw out a TP move as soon as they become unstunned, which really doesn't get us anywhere. I did fight some monsters, particularly ones that throw out T3-4 aga spells, which it turned out to be very useful.

So where does that put us? Sub blackmage is back on the table, but it is far from the end all subjob. In a alliance sized fight I really shouldn't be the main stun, although I do see some use for it in low man situations. Scholar has more to offer then just mp efficiency, and I think it will continue to be my alliance sized subjob of choice.
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#17 Dec 22 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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Being able to "Curaga" and "Protectra" another party is also a great asset of /sch
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#18 Dec 22 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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To be blunt, I never liked /blm when it was considered a decent whm sub in the first place and tended to /whine when I had to sub it for more than just tele ***** or running around. Up until /sch, I was hardcore /smn. I could never FEEL conserve mp on /blm, it never ever kicked in for me, so I was all meh.

Yet when I finally tried /sch I loved it, and have never looked back. /sch may not have the autorefresh of /smn but I can see it's ten times better.

I can see why in certain situations you may want /blm but...Because I like the mp cons features of /sch and the ability to ga cure on another party in the ally if I have to, as well as being able to speed up SS cast if I have to use it.

Seriously, it's pre-scholar situation all over again. Ask me to sub /blm and you'll get some serious /whine'ing from me.



Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 12:46pm by maryadavies
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#19 Dec 23 2010 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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Yep, I feel the same about /SCH. It's about a lot more than MP. Its about raising skills, fastcast/recast and conserve MP. Yes, I can see times where I may situationally sub BLM for Stun but I don't see that happening often. I didn't really like /SMN if I'm honest and did prefer /BLM for most things but now, don't you take my precious /SCH away!
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#20 Dec 27 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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I pretty much sub /SCH both inside and outside of abyssea; the only time another sub job is used is when I'm fooling around or doing low-man abyssea events, then I'll /nin just for survivability.
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#21 Jan 01 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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/SCH offers so much more than /RDM... so what if /RDM nets you some more MP over the long run and ? Even if that's true, that still doesn't account for all the stuff which makes /SCH so useful:

- speed raise people with celerity
- 50% mp cost reduction with penury
- conserve mp trait
- sublimation keeps you from being slept (mostly)
- buff an outside party with Shell/Protect
- aspir can come in useful for extra mp
- dispel is available if it's absolutely needed
- not sure if this works, but I hear you can use sandstorm to negate double dark weather

/RDM gives you like... refresh, convert, gravity, fast cast 2, enspells (why not use afflatus misery + auspice)... is that it?
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#22 Jan 02 2011 at 3:18 AM Rating: Good
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Ha. I remember doing JoLove with friends. DDs were charmed and their gear gave them some mp. she manifestation aspir'd and got like 100-200mp. lol
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#23 Jan 04 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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/SCH offers so much more than /RDM... so what if /RDM nets you some more MP over the long run and ?


Because sometimes you don't need all those frills, and what you need is just sheer MP?

I don't know why people are having such a hard time understanding this. It's pretty much the same thing as the /BLM and /SMN debates from yesteryear. /BLM carries more utility; /SMN carries slightly more MP. Depending on what you need, you pick a sub. What's so **** hard to figure out here?


Quote:
(why not use afflatus misery + auspice)


Because Auspice sucks as an "Enspell". Here, have an Enspell that works like an Enspell2 (only procs on first hit of a round) but doesn't even have the increasing dmg/hit aspect that makes Enspell2s worth using in the first place!

Note: If you ask most RDMs, Enspell2s are generally considered to be lolworthy even WITH their increasing dmg/hit.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 10:31am by Fynlar
#24 Jan 06 2011 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:

Because sometimes you don't need all those frills, and what you need is just sheer MP?

I don't know why people are having such a hard time understanding this. It's pretty much the same thing as the /BLM and /SMN debates from yesteryear. /BLM carries more utility; /SMN carries slightly more MP. Depending on what you need, you pick a sub. What's so **** hard to figure out here?


And I don't understand your point of view because I don't have MP issues :). I think in part the reason I don't have MP issues is because I use SCH sub. But honestly, if it works for you, it works. I found way back that /SMN was only ever useful for me in Dynamis. I swore by /BLM for everything except that.

Overall though /SCH offers WHM more than any other sub. Situationally, you may opt for something else.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 10:27am by eldelphia
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#25 Jan 06 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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And I don't understand your point of view because I don't have MP issues :). I think in part the reason I don't have MP issues is because I use SCH sub.


Nah, you don't have MP issues because

1) Abyssea gives you a **** ton of refresh
2) Anything not in Abyssea is too damned easy now

Honestly, you can go subless for most things nowadays and you'll still have no problems.

Still though, if you can't encounter ANY scenario where your MP doesn't get taxed, you haven't been in enough nasty scenarios.
#26 Jan 07 2011 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Dunno, I guess we're just lucky? You're right though, in Abyssea its crazy. Three Lunar abyssites = Allure, Minnikin and then either Rescuer or another fresh/hp atma.

Rani kinda taxed my MP but only to the point it got down to 400. That was with Allure and Minnikin. Honestly with Rescuer I doubt it would have gotten that low but I needed and HP atma. More though, that comes from having a ghorn bard and a rdm in with 2 WHMs for that fight. If we hadn't had the bard it would have been an issue. But then converting mid that fight would have been stupid. Ghorn bard is definitely NOT standard for us. Didn't touch devotion.

I work on capping out my efficiency per cure a lot. I now have capped Cure potency in each cure, keep using blessed where I can for faster recast timers etc etc. Saving 10% off each cure and off the recast etc = win.

Will be interesting if they take 'God mode' off us and put us in a new area where the normal mobs can eat you for breakfast. I'm guessing the subs will change situationally a lot more then.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:44am by eldelphia
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