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Conserve MP calculation time?Follow

#1 Sep 03 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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So I noticed something odd yesterday, which is that FFXIclopedia lists Conserve MP as only needing to be equipped at the time you start casting in order to take effect. This is news to me, but I can't find any verification that it's really true. Anyone heard this before from a definitive source? I just picked up Austerity Belt last night and if this is true it makes that belt a lot cooler than I thought it was when I first bought it... It would also mean all my gripes about Novia Earring were unfounded, as you can swap in both Roundel & Novia without losing the benefit from Magnetic. Anyone have confirmation on whether this is true?
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#2 Sep 03 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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I saw the same thing a while ago. I'm pretty puzzled by it too and would definitely like to see some confirmation.

Honestly, it doesn't immediately make sense to me that cMP should work like that, but I've generally given it the benefit of the doubt and incorporated some into my pre-casting gear on my jobs -- not replacing other things, just adding it in as a "why not? If it works, it works; if not, it's not hurting anything".

Still, it's a pretty big claim that should really be fleshed out...
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#3 Sep 03 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, I did a little testing and this is 100% false.

I set up a quick macro to test it, putting my idle gear as Seveneyes, Goliard Saio, Magnetic Earring, and Austerity Belt. I then made macros for RR1, RR2, and RR3 which had a /wait 1, followed by swapping in various items for that slot which have no CMP. I changed my subjob to NIN to avoid the CMP trait, and removed all forms of refresh.

This gives me CMP+25 in my idle set, and swaps to CMP+0 one second after starting the cast.

I cast each Reraise 15 times (45 total casts @ 150 MP each) and didn't get a single CMP activation. If CMP activated on PreCast, it should've activated about 11 times.
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#4 Sep 04 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This gives me CMP+25 in my idle set, and swaps to CMP+0 one second after starting the cast.

I cast each Reraise 15 times (45 total casts @ 150 MP each) and didn't get a single CMP activation. If CMP activated on PreCast, it should've activated about 11 times.


Just so you know, CMP+25 is only a 25% chance of activation. Going 15 times without a proc wouldn't be totally unheard of. I'm not sure why you were expecting 11 procs >_>

Also, I see some heehaw added in a note about how it's "technically" possible to have CMP make a spell cost zero MP if it happens along with Penury/Parsimony. This is absolutely false; they are treated as separate reductions (Penury could reduce a 100 MP spell down to 50, and then CMP could proc and possibly cut that in half again to 25). I'll be editing that bit out soon.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 11:06am by Fynlar
#5 Sep 04 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Just so you know, CMP+25 is only a 25% chance of activation. Going 15 times without a proc wouldn't be totally unheard of. I'm not sure why you were expecting 11 procs >_>


He used each reraise, 1-3, 15 times each for a total of 45 casts. 25% of 45 is ~11
#6 Sep 04 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I missed the critical word, "each Reraise"

That makes more sense now >_> Ignore me
#7 Sep 06 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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It doesn't make sense that this would happen anyway. MP is taken out when casting concludes, so if anything you'd want it swapped in just before you finish casting, not just after you start casting.

It still probably doesn't work that way, but it might be worth another test to check. EDIT: Not on anything where you'd want MAB or Cure Potency, obviously, but on something that takes forever to cast and is expensive. (In other words, it'd be useful for tele-whoring, and possibly the Boost spells we seem to be getting depending on their cast time.)

Edited, Sep 5th 2010 11:49pm by MDenham
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#8 Sep 07 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
It doesn't make sense that this would happen anyway. MP is taken out when casting concludes, so if anything you'd want it swapped in just before you finish casting, not just after you start casting.

It still probably doesn't work that way, but it might be worth another test to check. EDIT: Not on anything where you'd want MAB or Cure Potency, obviously, but on something that takes forever to cast and is expensive. (In other words, it'd be useful for tele-whoring, and possibly the Boost spells we seem to be getting depending on their cast time.)

I had always assumed it procs when you finish casting as well. It's totally logical, based on when other stats are calculated. I see no reason to test it, by process of elimination we've established that it must happen at the time you finish casting. Aside from PreCast, there's no other time it could be calculated.

As far as usefulness, I am still totally in love with CMP and use as much as I can. However, other stats such as cure potency take precedence. For example, my default MidCast swap for WHM loads me up primarily with haste & CMP gear with a dash of enmity down, giving CMP+28 for a 53% activation rate. I use this set for casting spells like Haste, Protect/Shell, Raise, etc. It's definitely a huge factor in my longevity as a WHM. I use a similar set for Regens, swapping Goliard Saio for Cleric's Briault of course. Cures are farther from this than most sets, in order to obtain a bunch of Cure Potency. My Cure sets have CMP+16 for a 41% activation rate (Selenian Cap, Magnetic Earring, Austerity Belt).
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#9 Sep 11 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
MP is taken out when casting concludes, so if anything you'd want it swapped in just before you finish casting, not just after you start casting.
I'm not entirely sure how, but many many times I've used Devotion on a BLM with full MP just as the Warp II animation is going off on me, and the result is always a BLM with full MP after I zone. Smiley: confused
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#10 Sep 11 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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chewzer wrote:
I'm not entirely sure how, but many many times I've used Devotion on a BLM with full MP just as the Warp II animation is going off on me, and the result is always a BLM with full MP after I zone. Smiley: confused


Uh, that's because neither Warp nor Teleports are instant. The game takes about 2-3 seconds after the actual casting is finished to actually zone you. This is meant to allow the animation to finish, and it's long enough to do near-instant actions like using a JA.

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#11 Sep 12 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Uh, that's because neither Warp nor Teleports are instant. The game takes about 2-3 seconds after the actual casting is finished to actually zone you. This is meant to allow the animation to finish, and it's long enough to do near-instant actions like using a JA.


Funny trick: If you cast a Teleport near a nomad moogle, and you immediately change jobs after the spell fires, your party will get whisked away, but you will stay there.

Anyone else in the party can do the same thing though: change jobs while being teleported, and you won't get sent anywhere. This also works with D2.
#12 Sep 12 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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This Conserve MP thing is bugging the **** out of me now. I always assumed it was calculated at finish... until about 6 months ago when it was brought to my attention that it was at start of casting. I spent hours completely revamping my WHM and RDM macros to accommodate. Now it's being said that it's at finish again?

I think I'll do some testing when I have a chance. No offense to you, Pergatory, or your testing; I want to see this with my own eyes.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 5:07pm by chewzer
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Fynlar wrote:
Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#13 Sep 13 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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chewzer wrote:
This Conserve MP thing is bugging the **** out of me now. I always assumed it was calculated at finish... until about 6 months ago when it was brought to my attention that it was at start of casting. I spent hours completely revamping my WHM and RDM macros to accommodate. Now it's being said that it's at finish again?

I think I'll do some testing when I have a chance. No offense to you, Pergatory, or your testing; I want to see this with my own eyes.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 5:07pm by chewzer

LOL, I reworked a bunch of my macros before doing the testing myself, so I feel your pain. Took me a while to revert them back. I wish it worked the other way, because it would let me work a lot more CMP into my macros. Basically any slot that can't enhance fast cast would get CMP. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. :( Test all you like though; Fortunately it's extremely easy to test since WHM doesn't have native CMP.
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#14 Sep 13 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Also, I see some heehaw added in a note about how it's "technically" possible to have CMP make a spell cost zero MP if it happens along with Penury/Parsimony. This is absolutely false; they are treated as separate reductions (Penury could reduce a 100 MP spell down to 50, and then CMP could proc and possibly cut that in half again to 25). I'll be editing that bit out soon.


It looks like the same person added the bits about conserve in combination with other reductions and the mid-cast stuff. Didn't put in any comments in the edit summary or on the talk page. The only reason I've hesitated to rip that crap out myself is that I haven't personally tested it to verify that it's wrong.

chewzer wrote:
I'm not entirely sure how, but many many times I've used Devotion on a BLM with full MP just as the Warp II animation is going off on me, and the result is always a BLM with full MP after I zone. Smiley: confused
I do the same trick, except that I wait until I see the BLM's mp go down from the warp. Like drakonite said, it's not instant. Warp has been cast - you just haven't left yet.

Also, due to latency, just about anything you see happening on your screen (your own movement is a notable exception) has already occurred on the server. This is why, for example, you can start moving just before a nuke fires without interrupting. In actuality, the nuke has already fired - or will fire before the server gets the message that you started to move. Your client just doesn't know it yet.
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