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#1 Jul 04 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Decent
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tried finding this in forums and couldn't. as far as subs for whm both these seem real goodMP saveing from /sch but /rdm wouldn't that be unlimited MP. Refresh and convert
#2 Jul 04 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll bite.

For starters, Convert and Refresh are not "Unlimited MP". Also, at the current cap (80), /SCH is still better because /RDM doesn't get Refresh yet.

As for the actual full comparison to 99, the current consensus is:
/SCH will still be marginally better if you play your JA's right, and will be highly superior in any situation where you can Aspir. It also provides decent utility (Like Raising while Weak, Enfeebling Boosts, Stoneskinga, etc). However, /RDM is very close behind, and will undoubtedly be the sub of choice if you have to refresh someone else (Added utility). It also opens Gravity/Bind/Sleep/SleepII as extra crowd-control, and Phalanx for personal safety.

At 99, expect to swap between /RDM or /SCH as the situation demands. There will be no best sub for all situations.







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#3 Jul 05 2010 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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Out of curiosity, what about whm/pup at 96+, when white mage automaton gets cure IV? If you had a hatefree, 88 mp cure being cast every 18-20 seconds or so, with no hit to your mp pool,(and if you take good care of it, it's infinite MP as well, since deactivate restores it to full mp), wouldn't that outweigh even /sch possibly for mp conservation? There's also the fact that it's essentially doublecast, since you can put up a light maneuver every minute, deploy it, and it takes care of the rest.

Granted, there's situations where you want to save it's timer for emergencies, or if no one needs curing and you don't want it to bother enfeebling, and you have to hit retrieve till you need it to cure again, but still, it shouldn't be that hard, as I remember whm/pup being a quirky but useful sub before /sch demolished it in mp efficiency.

But while scholar's charges and sublimation aren't going to go up in efficiency at higher levels, /pup will at 96+, big time. I'm curious on what the white mage community's thoughts are on this quirky but useful combo.

::Edit:: Oh, and to counter common misconceptions about /pup, you can use maneuvers as /pup if you equip the level 1 animator, which is all jobs equipable. And with the white mage automaton head, soulsoother, you can cure other party members, which you can obtain as early as level 40 pup, but once acquired, use as early as /pup level 1.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 5:05am by PsionofPhoenix
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#4 Jul 06 2010 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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Whm/Pup is a possibility later on, If your main function is healing only. But even then, certain mobs, you want to cure spam, and a cure 4 every 18-20 secs, may not be enough. If you want to enfeeble, it won't help you, if you are not low on HP, it won't help you much, and pets have the uncanny ability (especially pup) to cast cures over your regens, which when players do this, it drives me nuts.

As far as /Rdm or /Sch as Drakonite said, its going to be a toss up, so have both leveled.

/Sch will offer Stoneskinga, Blinkga, Aquaveilga, Regenga 1, 2, 3, Drain, Drainga, Aspir, Aspirga, Additional Stratagems to reduce Mp cost of spells, or cast and recast times, Conserve MP (which is just icing) Resist silence, Light Atrs 10% cost and cast time reduction and Sublimation.

/Rdm will offer Refresh, Convert, Phalanx, Gravity, Bio 2, Blind, Bind, Poison, Sleep 2, Enspells, Blaze and Ice Spikes, Fastcast and Resist Petrify.

Alone Refresh is "better" then Sublimation. Sublimation offers 2 Mp a tick up to 25% of your Hp (not taking gear into consideration) so for a Taru with 800 Hp, 200 Mp every 5:30.
Refresh gives 150 Mp every 2:35 (5 sec cast time) typically not recast until it wears off. Refresh costs 40 Mp, so net is 110 Mp over 2:35 or 220 Mp over 5:10.

Convert is ~ 800 Mp every 10 mins. Now, obviously convert and Sublimation will vary based on race and some gear. I am just useing these figures as an example. However Tarus actually have the Least efficient Sublimations, since they charge the shortest ammount of time and hit the 30 sec buffer more often than other races.

In terms of straight up MP regeneration, /Rdm wins out. But then you have to look at Mp useage. In this Dept, Rdm offers nothing. While Sch offers a straight 10% cost reduction, Conserve Mp and 1/2 Mp cost stratagems.

You also have to take Aspir and Aspirga into account.

Its going to probably come down to a matter of personal preferance, and will be situational, each will preform better in different situations, while skilling up, /Rdm will probably be better, due to more staying power, more enfeebles, Phalanx (take less damage, live longer), Where /Sch will be better for events, where you'll need to raise people fast and where you can aspir mobs, like Campaign and Dynamis, basically, where you have time to get Mp back.

Level both though, you will want that at least.
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#5 Jul 06 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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/SCH adds far more utility and casting options than /RDM.

Manifestation/Penury
Light Arts for MP/timer reduction, as well as improved skills
Dark Arts for respectable aspirs/drains, dispel, and dark based sleep
Sublimation to charge MP as well as keep you awake
Conserve MP probably nets you about 7% more MP reduction

RDM, as of 80 cap, only gives you convert and fast cast.

As DHMLucky pointed out, sublimation roughly counters refresh as far as utility. If you're fighting non-stop refresh pulls a bit ahead, but if you're ever pausing (resting/moving) sublimation pulls a bit ahead. However, since /RDM doesn't get refresh til next level increase, this is basically adding 360~400 MP gained per 10 minutes, slightly under half a convert. Of course, /SCH's MP goes about ~17% farther given LA and Conserve MP, so that's roughly 400~460 worth of raw MP power.

Were you to exert all five of your strategems on Cure V, you could save 335 MP alone. In a standard DD setup you would also need to cast 3.33*3 hastes, which would save you 40 MP. Add in any dias and regens and you've already broke even.

However, /SCH is significantly more than that. the latest additions being manifestation.

For 58 MP you can stoneskin-ga your party, essentially preventing 2280 points of damage. You can also blinkga for 40 MP and potentially prevent even more damage than that.

Or aspirga in campaign or dynamis for a RIDICULOUS amount of MP. Assuming mobs have MP, you can aspir (without manifestation) about once per minute, which WHM does have access to quite a bit of dark skill and magic accuracy gear to pull off some pretty high numbers. Drain can average pretty high as well in case you have some extra time to toss it out to either recover from an aoe or speed up some fights. Dispel and sleep require addendum: black, but still have situational use, like were your dispeller to go afk while farming an event etc. Even then, you still can accurately cast light or dark based sleeps when necessary, which is always a plus.

Personally I wouldn't bother subbing RDM even after 80 since /SCH offers so much more beyond MP, especially when you can just have your BRD|COR sub RDM and refresh you.
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#6 Jul 07 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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/RDM also gives you a Dispel that doesn't require Addendum:Black to use.

Not always crucial, but it's worth noting; because in most cases if you have to use Dispel, you'll have to use it often and you don't really want to get hogtied into Dark Arts as a WHM.
#7 Jul 08 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Two additional factors that I haven't seen mentioned yet:

1. As you add external sources of MP regeneration, such as someone using Ballad or Evoker's Roll on you, or even just resting, efficiency-related actions compound those benefits. That is to say, the more MP you are getting from outside sources, the further /SCH will pull ahead in terms of MP because they can do more with the same MP gained. If you give a WHM/SCH and a WHM/RDM Evoker's Roll, the former will benefit more from it than the latter.

2. With regard to Refresh vs. Sublimation, Refresh doesn't always win. Apart from the obvious sleep immunity scenario, which I don't think has been overlooked since we WHMs love this benefit, there's also the issue of areas where your MP are restored on regular intervals. Examples are Salvage and Limbus. If you know one of those is coming, you can store up your Sublimation rather than using it right away. This effectively increases your Max MP temporarily. You can do the same before starting an event; buffing a huge sublimation using Max HP gear before you enter Einherjar, for example. Sublimation has some strong benefits that aren't immediately obvious. It gives you more control than a straight 3mp/tick.

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 3:46pm by Pergatory
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#8 Jul 12 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Pergatory wrote:
As you add external sources of MP regeneration, such as someone using Ballad or Evoker's Roll on you, or even just resting, efficiency-related actions compound those benefits. That is to say, the more MP you are getting from outside sources, the further /SCH will pull ahead in terms of MP because they can do more with the same MP gained. If you give a WHM/SCH and a WHM/RDM Evoker's Roll, the former will benefit more from it than the latter.

That's a somewhat roundabout way to say "WHM/SCH gets 10% more out of each MP than WHM/RDM."


Pergatory wrote:
Apart from the obvious sleep immunity scenario,

With a stack of Elshimo Pachira Fruit at less than 500 gil from NPC, I have to roll my eyes at this. lol.

Yes, yes, Sublimation is very nice for that. And, no, I still carry a stack of the fruit when I'm on SCH--not going to waste my Sublimation:Complete just because I need to stay awake.
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#9 Jul 12 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Default
Fynlar wrote:
/RDM also gives you a Dispel that doesn't require Addendum:Black to use.

Not always crucial, but it's worth noting; because in most cases if you have to use Dispel, you'll have to use it often and you don't really want to get hogtied into Dark Arts as a WHM.

Please enlighten me on this. In what situation would you put a WHM over BRD and/or RDM on Dispel duty?
#10 Jul 12 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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NyaanyaaMidgardsormr wrote:
Please enlighten me on this. In what situation would you put a WHM over BRD and/or RDM on Dispel duty?


On any situation where we have no RDM and the bard is busy? (Or the other way around). BEsides, having more people with access to dispel can't hurt anyone.

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#11 Jul 13 2010 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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Ive been known to sit in a campaign and debuff the **** out of Whm mobs with Dispel when i am not tanking them.

I don't mind switching to dark arts, i do it often for Drain and Aspir, whats the burden to me is Addendum black, because of the uncanny ability that i end up needing 2 stratagems Right after i use it XD (not in campaign, in things like dyna)

Sometimes your Brd is busy, or didn't show for the night, or they got Slept while sublimation kept us awake, things happen, and overall im really torn of what i'll do once the level cap is raised. From 75-77 im sticking with /Sch, as its the only sub with MP regeneration via Sublimation, and aspir. Once i hit 80, for solo work, i'll /Rdm for Phalanx, fastcast and convert. ice Spikes will be a nice add back on again (i used to play Whm/Blm before sch) as well, Bio 2, Blind and Bind if i need them. Having additional Enspells is also nice (especially since it seems, Sea mobs are resistant to Light XD) Gravity will also be a nice addition.

At 99 it really will be a toss up, as both have advantages, it will depend on what SE allows us to do. Like we all assumed we'd get hastega we obviously didn't get this, I think it will also depend on if they give us Cure 7, and how much MP thats gonna cost, if it stays in line with the other cures, it will be over 400 MP, which is obscene for a cure. I would personally just prefre "fullcure" at that point for about 250 Mp but full hate for how much we cure.

But anyway for now, i feel Rdm is Slightly better solo, and Sch is significantly better for a party or event setup.
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#12 Jul 13 2010 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Drakonite wrote:
NyaanyaaMidgardsormr wrote:
Please enlighten me on this. In what situation would you put a WHM over BRD and/or RDM on Dispel duty?


On any situation where we have no RDM and the bard is busy? (Or the other way around). BEsides, having more people with access to dispel can't hurt anyone.

Also, situations where mobs have multiple buffs, such as following a sac pull in dynamis when the mobs have been sitting around buffing each other. The mobs die a lot faster if you have you have 3 people each cast dispel once when it arrives than if you wait for one person to do it three times. It's not so much that you wouldn't have a RDM or BRD or BLM doing it, but like Drakonite said, one more dispel isn't a bad thing.

Also, it's not as if I'd necessarily come /RDM just for the purposes of dispel, but if I do come /RDM over /SCH (for whatever reason), you better believe I'd be using it when necessary.

But, probably, once I do get my WHM to 80, /SCH will probably remain my default subjob. Especially since I have a nice dark magic build courtesy of being a BLM, /grin.
Requim wrote:

Assuming mobs have MP, you can aspir (without manifestation) about once per minute
Actually, my recast on drain/aspir as WHM, with haste and gear, is only 36 seconds. That's a long time to sit in Dark Arts if anything is actually happening, but I'll occasionally risk it (and/or pay the penalty) to get my next bit of mp back a little sooner.

Edited, Jul 13th 2010 10:34am by VxSote
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#13 Jul 13 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Please enlighten me on this. In what situation would you put a WHM over BRD and/or RDM on Dispel duty?


A situation where no RDM or BRD is present. Yeah, blasphemy I know, but I've been in this situation more times than I can count on my two hands, and I even have RDM and BRD leveled myself.

Still don't think /RDM will become popular for WHM usage until after 82, though.
#14 Jul 20 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
That's a somewhat roundabout way to say "WHM/SCH gets 10% more out of each MP than WHM/RDM."

Well, it's slightly more complicated than that. There's also Conserve MP, which saves about another 7% compounded. So WHM/SCH really gets about another 18% out of each MP. Then there's Penury, but this shouldn't have a significant effect on the usage of MP gained through Refresh/Ballad/etc. since you get the same number of stratagems either way. However, with more MP intake, I could see saving more MP through Penury as well because you're casting larger spells maybe? Anyway, it's a lot more than a straight 10% benefit, that's why I didn't just stick a number on it.
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#15 Jul 25 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Good
I never really chime in on another job forums, but I'll make an exception:

Quote:
Alone Refresh is "better" then Sublimation. Sublimation offers 2 Mp a tick up to 25% of your Hp (not taking gear into consideration) so for a Taru with 800 Hp, 200 Mp every 5:30.
Refresh gives 150 Mp every 2:35 (5 sec cast time) typically not recast until it wears off. Refresh costs 40 Mp, so net is 110 Mp over 2:35 or 220 Mp over 5:10.

Convert is ~ 800 Mp every 10 mins. Now, obviously convert and Sublimation will vary based on race and some gear. I am just useing these figures as an example. However Tarus actually have the Least efficient Sublimations, since they charge the shortest ammount of time and hit the 30 sec buffer more often than other races.


This assumes both prefect Sublimation and perfect Refresh, and not outside sources as well. A Ironically, a RDM's outside refresh will still provide better numbers, and is more easily accessible due to the RDM's access to Acession as well. Also considering that there are PLENTY of buffs to split via Accession, putting these two classes in tank parties together is also a worthwhile consideration again.

And if RDM gets Refresh II, then the whole issue is moot.

Quote:
In terms of straight up MP regeneration, /Rdm wins out. But then you have to look at Mp useage. In this Dept, Rdm offers nothing. While Sch offers a straight 10% cost reduction, Conserve Mp and 1/2 Mp cost stratagems.


This really does boil down between Stratagems + Arts + Conserve MP vs Convert. Depending on how a WHM uses Stratagems, you can save an aweful lot of MP.

As an extreme case: Curaga IV get's the Peturny Stratagem exclusively:
Normal Cast: 260 | x5 1300 | cMP: ~1261
w/ Arts: 234 | x5 1170 | cMP: ~1088
w/ Arts + Stratagem: 117 | x5 585 | cMP: ~544

1300 - 544 = 756 MP saved.

Provided WHM does NOTHING ELSE for cMP and Arts to trigger on. That's under 50 MP shy of convert's estimated MP return.

But again, this is an extreme case. Good luck trying to find a WHM that will cast Curega IV every 2 minutes and stay alive and there are other, more effective means of using MP.(Or getting Conserve MP to reliably proc on 7% of the casts.) But it's a good way to show the full potential of how /sch can save a WHM's MP pool, and we really haven't gotten to the lvl 99 spells yet. If anything costs more than 260 MP to cast that a WHM gains access to, /SCH is going to potentially beat out /RDM in potential MP conservation/return, especially if they get access to Cure VII.




Edited, Jul 25th 2010 11:35pm by Hyrist
#16 Jul 26 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Going to agree that Tarutaru WHMs will probably be better served by Convert than we will Sublimation. With sublimation, I can only hope to see about 500 MP over the course of 10 minutes, but I'll potentially see double that with Convert, without even changing any gear setups (since WHM gear has a lot of MP built in.) For races who would need to build a separate convert set on WHM in order to take advantage of it (Elvaan, Galka) and who have a smaller base MP pool to begin with, /SCH's benefits other benefits will probably win out in the long term.

All I know is, there are sometimes during endurance fights that I really wished I'd had Convert on WHM. But for shorter fights, where sustained MP may not be an issue, /SCH is still probably better since it will allow you draw out the MP pool longer. I'll probably stay /SCH in Einherjar, but I'll switch to /RDM for longer fights, like Jailor of Love.

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#17 Jul 26 2010 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
Quote:

All I know is, there are sometimes during endurance fights that I really wished I'd had Convert on WHM. But for shorter fights, where sustained MP may not be an issue, /SCH is still probably better since it will allow you draw out the MP pool longer. I'll probably stay /SCH in Einherjar, but I'll switch to /RDM for longer fights, like Jailor of Love.


You'd think this would be the other way around.

In longer fights, you're likely to have the extra support: Outside Refresh, Ballad's, Rolls if you're lucky, and even a backup healer. You'll get the most out of your arts, even with a chance to rest at times depending on the ebb and flow of the fight. You'll also get the most out of your curegas, regens, stoneskins, etc.

But with shorter, and especially shorter intense fights, you're going to want that instant return of MP, rather than drawing it out with simple MP endurance, especially in low-man instances that are more straight damage and less confusing debuffs to worry over.

Though, this may have less to due with the duration of the fight, and the number of people you're working with. /sch seems to lend itself better to larger groups in the case of a WHM.


Quote:
With sublimation, I can only hope to see about 500 MP over the course of 10 minutes


That's about what you're going to get subbing for refresh. 110 MP over 2.5 minutes only translates to 440 MP over 10 minutes. If you compare Sublimation to Refresh you're actually pretty even there. The problem is you're comparing it to convert.

I don't think it's wise to compare Convert to Sublimation as in the case of RDM/SCH and SCH/RDM, they don't conflict. What it does conflict with is Refresh, which in the case of the Scholar Sublimation is better and the case of the RDM Refresh is better. In the case of support jobs /rdm's refresh inches up to be better, but only marginally so. Also, you can substitute both Sublimation and Self-Refresh with an outside source that performs better than either of them. That's not the case when you compare /schs overall MP conservation with /rdm's Convert, which again seems to be a really close call depending on how you use it.

If I were to make a prediction, the BNS (Big Number Syndrome) is likely going to pull in effect and we'll see more /rdms than /schs. But as far as effectiveness in comparison they're about equal, and IMO, both should be leveled by anyone wanting to get the most out of their mage (or mage side).



Edited, Jul 26th 2010 7:01am by Hyrist
#18 Jul 27 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Good
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