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Flash worth it on HNM?Follow

#1 May 13 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Is spamming flash for whm worth it on HNM fights? Lets assume tanks are good and hate is no issue for the whm.

Brings me to second question: Devotion is not meant to be used on whm in the tank party? I am talking about two whm in tank party using devotion on each other.

Edited, May 14th 2010 2:06am by Breaze
#2 May 13 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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I have found that Flash's effectiveness on most HNM, and even many run of the mill NMs that don't really deserve to be called HNM, is greatly diminished; it typically doesn't even last for more than one attack round, oftentimes they will still hit with this attack round anyway, and assuming enough Slow is piled on the mob it might not even last that long if you don't time your Flash correctly.

If I'm casting Flash on something and I find the above behaviors coming into play, I usually stop casting it, unless for some reason I want to pull hate.

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Devotion is not meant to be used on whm in the tank party? I am talking about two whm in tank party using devotion on each other.


sh*t's situational
#3 May 14 2010 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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I tend to use flash just because i am used to it, its certainly not hurting unless you are pulling hate with each flash.

As for Devotion, Rdm has both refresh and Convert (you usually have once of those in a tank party) If you have 2 Plds in the tank party a Rdm 2 Whms and a Brd the poeple who will typically need MP first are the Whms, so Useing Devo on a Whm is not a bad thing.

If both tanks are at 5 Mp then its another story, but i agree with Fy, its situational, and its a judgement call, Also bear in mind, you'll have another Devo in ~10-20 mins depending on your merit level.

Rdm has a 10 min countdown on their Convert and a refresh effect of 3 or possibly more (area depending and gear depending, so typically Rdms are a lest resort on the Devo list, but it mainly depends when jobs you have in your party.

Ive been known to Devo a Drk just because that was the only job with MP in my party XD.
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#4 May 14 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Flash is still very useful even on HNMs, but more situational. The important thing to remember is that it doesn't just reduce the burden of healing, but also prevents the tank from losing enmity if they are hit. So Flash costing about the same as Cure II, even if it doesn't prevent a full Cure II's worth of damage (which one swing on an HNM generally will), it will also help the tank keep their enmity high so it can still be a good trade-off.

Basically my use of Flash is dictated by how much trouble the tank is having. If they are /NIN and having trouble keeping shadows up, or some other sub and getting the poo beat out of them, then I'll Flash as often as I can without stepping on their Flashes. This helps them keep their enmity high by helping them to avoid damage, and also reduces healing costs.

With the equipment out there nowadays, quite often though a PLD can tank almost entirely self-sufficient even on many HNMs. They require very little healing, and can do most of it themselves. In this case, I scale back my Flash usage, because them getting hit a little bit can actually help them build hate. If a PLD takes 200 damage and then Cures themself for 200, they end up with more enmity than they started with. So if the PLD is self-reliant, I tend to only Flash when it's obvious that it would help. For example if they're casting Ichi is always a nice time.

As for Devotion, WHM & PLD are great targets. I'll tend to prefer the PLD, but you also have to be careful of Chivalry. I can't count the number of times I've used Devotion at the same time the PLD used Chivalry and resulted in one of the two being wasted. Really, though, it's situational. Whoever can benefit most, use your best judgment.
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#5 May 16 2010 at 5:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The important thing to remember is that it doesn't just reduce the burden of healing, but also prevents the tank from losing enmity if they are hit.


waaaaaat

Did you mean if they AREN'T hit? >_>

Quote:
I'll tend to prefer the PLD, but you also have to be careful of Chivalry. I can't count the number of times I've used Devotion at the same time the PLD used Chivalry and resulted in one of the two being wasted. Really, though, it's situational. Whoever can benefit most, use your best judgment.


Yeah, I've had this problem also; same with RDMs that want to Convert (usually, that RDM has been me, and I take a Devotion from someone right when I decide to Convert).

If you have the means to, watch the PLD's TP. If they are hoarding TP past 100 and still aren't using it, they are probably getting ready to use Chivalry (especially if they have Atonement unlocked and still aren't using their TP, because pretty much every PLD with Atonement wants to abuse it as much as humanly possible). Otherwise, you may wanna ask them to speak up when they intend to use Chivalry.

As for RDMs, they've been used to whoring Convert since they were a lot younger, and it's harder to get them to say when they're about to Convert. However, with them it's usually more obvious that they're about to use it too. Many of them will alter their casting behavior in a noticeable way when they are down to <100 MP or so, to try to get as tapped out as possible before firing the Convert. Many of them will also cast Stoneskin at this point. The Stoneskin is probably your best cue.

Edited, May 16th 2010 7:33am by Fynlar
#6 May 18 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Flash on HNM's should first and foremost be used to help the tanks. If, for example, a tank is using /NIN sub and need to recast utsu, flashing during his cast can be beneficial to prevent him from getting interrupted. After, for example, a AoE move that just wiped his shadows.
#7 May 20 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Good
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Devotion is used situationally. Predominantly I find it useful WHM > WHM or WHM > PLD. Occasionally if things are crazy and vert isn't up, I'll Devotion the RDM. The point about Chivalry is well made, I always check with our PLDs because between a well timed Devotion and Chiv, they can go forever.
#8 May 20 2010 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Careful about flashing before your PLDs. Pretty sure it doesn't make a difference as far as enmity generation for the mob...but it generates enmity from the PLD to you <_<

PLDs hate puppets T_T

Honestly don't take WHM to that many end game events, but flashbulb from puppet lasted decently long for an attack round or two. Granted, your tanks probably aren't evading either way, but it potentially can prevent an interruption or a critical/DA/TA hit so if hate isn't an issue, there's little reason not to toss it out.
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#9 May 20 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Careful about flashing before your PLDs. Pretty sure it doesn't make a difference as far as enmity generation for the mob...but it generates enmity from the PLD to you <_<


If they don't know basic game mechanics, then they can hate me for all I care. Besides, a WHM's flash is 10 times more likely to stick longer than a PLD's.

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#10 May 20 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Wait a minute, there are some serious mind boggglers here. I'm not a whm, but I AM a PLD.

1) Flashing an HNM should not be done by a whm, you will have a hasted PLD or 2 Tank hasted and they should have no troubles flashing. I you are in fact flashing, you're wasting mp.

2)
Quote:
Careful about flashing before your PLDs. Pretty sure it doesn't make a difference as far as enmity generation for the mob...but it generates enmity from the PLD to you <_<


Thats about the most retarded thing i've ever heard, flashing does not transfer hate from one to another. regardless of whether flash takes effect or not the enmity is still generated.

3)Devotion vs chivalry/convert: This is where good communication skills come into play. As a tank, when i know i am burning up MP and i am running low, i will ask or tell the whm in my pt when it would be a good time to use devotion, or tell them not to. Communicate.

4)
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Basically my use of Flash is dictated by how much trouble the tank is having. If they are /NIN and having trouble keeping shadows up, or some other sub and getting the poo beat out of them, then I'll Flash as often as I can without stepping on their Flashes. This helps them keep their enmity high by helping them to avoid damage, and also reduces healing costs.


On regular mobs that may work for you, but on HNM, that is NOT a ver smart way to play things. If i am getting the sh*t kicked out of me, then that means i am losing massive hate, if you are flashing, youre generating spikes of volatile enmity, and eventually, that HNM is going to come looking for that juicy ball of mp that used to be the whm curing me.

5)
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Besides, a WHM's flash is 10 times more likely to stick longer than a PLD's.


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10 Times? not really.
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#11 May 20 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

Quote:
Besides, a WHM's flash is 10 times more likely to stick longer than a PLD's.



Paladin: Divine magic B+ 256 skill @ 75
White mage: Divine magic A- 269 skill @ 75

10 Times? not really.


You're forgetting about HQ light staff, and gear with divine/mnd.

Quote:
Quote:
Careful about flashing before your PLDs. Pretty sure it doesn't make a difference as far as enmity generation for the mob...but it generates enmity from the PLD to you <_<



Thats about the most retarded thing i've ever heard, flashing does not transfer hate from one to another. regardless of whether flash takes effect or not the enmity is still generated.


It means the pld will get mad at you. It's a joke, see?
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#12 May 20 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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actually i didnt, i woke up about 3 mins before i read this, brain not quite functioning. But after good shower and a coffee, HAHA thats rich!

And no i'm not forgetting food and/or hq staff.

The simple truth of the matter is, on really mean stuff, flash doesnt generally stop the beastie from hitting the tank. It's very rare that i see it happen anymore. Us, the PLDs, are less concerned about it blinding the beastie, and more concerned with it generating enmity. Which is what you're doing if your flashing an NM i would rather you spent that 24 on a cure II.
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#13 May 25 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's not hard to time Flash so that it stays in effect for at least one hit, even on the most difficult HNMs. It's also not going to cause a responsible WHM to suddenly start pulling hate left and right. I use Flash fairly regularly and it never causes enmity problems, and as others on this forum will tell you I am not big on enmity down builds so I know I'm not the exception in this scenario.

A good WHM has built up a gut feel for the pace of a fight. It's what lets us rest for several ticks right in the middle of a tough battle, for example. We see the lulls coming, we also see the turbulence coming, and with this trait Flash becomes exceedingly powerful. When the PLD just used Utsu:Ni, and the enemy does a double attack and you know they have TP as well, then it's time to throw a Flash because the PLD is about to get their last shadow stripped right before a WS. That's just an example, but stuff like this always happens in HNM battles. One well-timed Flash can make a huge difference. You're right though, if a WHM is dumb they can get themselves into trouble with it, but most WHMs can handle it. It's to be used with discretion, too, of course. WHM shouldn't be spamming it like the PLD, but it's a tool in our toolbox to be used when the situation calls for it.
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#14 May 25 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Default
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Thats about the most retarded thing i've ever heard, flashing does not transfer hate from one to another. regardless of whether flash takes effect or not the enmity is still generated.


WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH of the century right here.
#15 Aug 16 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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I typically flash whenever I see a tank casting :ichi. It's a habit from having mostly NIN tanks.

Generally has a "no effect" message, but not every time and it's helped tanks get ichi off more often than not.
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