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Another Quick Q. from me!Follow

#1 May 12 2010 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry XD but its me again!
Been thinking about getting a novia earring, but i'm poor as heck D: and i think that the only way for me to atleast get it is selling my hedgehog bomb D: and if i do sell my hedgehog bomb, i'd replace it with a holy ampulla.
So what do you think think is better in general for white mage?
25 mp vs. 1mnd -6enm and +7 eva
(i made the mp and the enmity like that because i balanced out the stats in the 2 pieces of gear, 5 mp from ampulla, 30 from hedgehog, = 25, etc lol)
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#2 May 12 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Depends on a lot of things. For starter, how easy is it for you to obtain another hedgehog bomb? Second thing is, Hedge only covers about 1/3 of the cost of a Novia. Do you have any other upgrade that could use the other 1mil that you should have hovering around for it?

Having said all that, statwise: It looks like it's worth it. 25MP is not all that important, unless you're on a low-MP race; or your cure macro is too low on the MP side that is costing you MP in gear swaps.

Generally speaking, the Novia will rise in value as your Cure Potency gear improves. Also becomes more important depending on the Endgame activity you do (HNM Lowman, for example). So it is a good investment on that regard.

On the other hand, if you're not in a situation where you can easily get one, chances are you are not into the type of endgame that could really benefit from it. Most endgame shells do JoL on regular basis because it is a very good source of income; and one of the two mobs that really rewards the mages (The other one being Tiamat).

In the end, it is up to you.

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#3 May 12 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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What I would do right now is make sure you have the gil to buy a Novia, but hold off until the update. The last thing you want to do is invest that much gil... and then find that at level 80, something close to a Novia gets released. If you are looking for more -ENM pieces, perhaps the new sash (depends on cash) might help. I have and love my Novia and would encourage everyone to invest in one. However, I'd really hold on until the update results are in. I can't see them entirely replacing it, but you might find a different combo of gear brings you close in terms of -ENM.

The other option is to get the Novia and ENM for the HH Bomb. It's actually a really easy fight, but it will probably take you a few runs to get it and getting the ENM item takes getting used to. Although Nexus Cape has encouraged a few peeps in my shell to do ENMs more regularly.
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#4 May 12 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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What is the rest of your equipment? Novia is pretty much the single most over-rated WHM piece in the game. In fact, I think it was meant more for front-line DDs but they would never use it because it would ruin their precious parse.

Do you own Aristocrat's Coat already? And Loquacious Earring? If not, get both of those before Novia. Are you planning to get Magnetic Earring too? If so, Errant Cape is a much better option for reducing enmity. Better to give up MND+5 than any form of Fast Cast or Conserve MP. In fact, I'd really recommend just avoiding the Novia altogether until there are very few things left for you to upgrade. Whether you think so or not, you do not need all that much enmity down to effectively do your job. You've been trained to think that by monkeys who claim to be WHMs but secretly hate the job and only play it because their LS needs a healer.
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#5 May 12 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Novia is pretty much the single most over-rated WHM piece in the game.


I'll never understand your aberration to this earring; and I still think that Magnetic takes the overrated trophy.

However, I have a different view of my Novia now. I am sporting 42% Cure potency non-med ring, and I definitely value those -Enmity when my Cure IV's are doing 600HP a pop.
I had to make some major modifications to all my cure3-4 gear too; including a Troopers Ring. Sometimes, I even carry a Staff strap and a Tetha Sash for when doing anything serious; as this are the last slots where I could squeeze more -Enmity. It has got that bad.



Edited, May 12th 2010 5:10pm by Drakonite
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#6 May 13 2010 at 5:43 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry Perg, I have to say whilst I respect you on some levels about this I think you're an utter idiot. I'm not saying you don't have a case for some DD using it but in all honesty I think RNG is about the only one I can really see it for. Not that anyone else can't use -ENM and can't benefit from it, but because in all honesty if you can't understand how every point of -ENM up to -50 reduces the amount of ENM you are generating from your Cures/Enfeebles etc then you haven't read a word of Kaeko's ENM testing. Sure you don't always need tons of -ENM, not every situation calls for it but Novia gives you enormous flexibility.

I'm not even saying stack in -ENM everywhere. I sit at less -ENM than I used to. And I'm sorry, but I feel loquacious and magnetic earrings are comparatively weak compared to a Novia. Sure Loquacious has fast cast and that's fair enough but I'd rather sport Novia and Roundel after the excitement of 30 MP has worn off. I guess if you're using Spellcast, Loquacious is a useful piece. I use it, just not for WHM. All three earrings are situationally useful.

Quote:

You've been trained to think that by monkeys who claim to be WHMs but secretly hate the job and only play it because their LS needs a healer.


Gee way to make friends and influence people in the WHM forum... I'm a career WHM and don't agree with you.
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#7 May 13 2010 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Do you own Aristocrat's Coat already? And Loquacious Earring? If not, get both of those before Novia. Are you planning to get Magnetic Earring too? If so, Errant Cape is a much better option for reducing enmity. Better to give up MND+5 than any form of Fast Cast or Conserve MP. In fact, I'd really recommend just avoiding the Novia altogether until there are very few things left for you to upgrade

Yes i do own an Aristo, surprisingly :o. Loq Earring... >.>; i don't have sea access. And, i have 2 curing gearsets lol, cause i'm one of those whms who decided to use med. ring, and i found cases where the hp- isnt helpful at all, so i created another gearset that doesnt use any of those hp- stuff D:. I love whm very much and i just want to make it better as best i can ^^.

Quote:
The other option is to get the Novia and ENM for the HH Bomb. It's actually a really easy fight, but it will probably take you a few runs to get it and getting the ENM item takes getting used to. Although Nexus Cape has encouraged a few peeps in my shell to do ENMs more regularly.

I was really thinking of doing the ENM too, because i heard that rdm's can solo it, and my rdm was 74 xD, sooo one lvl away lol. But yeah, thanks for your opinions so far :D
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#8 May 13 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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I'll never understand your aberration to this earring; and I still think that Magnetic takes the overrated trophy.


Pretty much this.

Novia isn't even particularly valuable anyway; I've seen it going for cheap from numerous sources, and the one I have now I got for free because it was a throwaway. Novio is what carries the huge price tag.
#9 May 13 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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eldelphia wrote:
Not that anyone else can't use -ENM and can't benefit from it, but because in all honesty if you can't understand how every point of -ENM up to -50 reduces the amount of ENM you are generating from your Cures/Enfeebles etc then you haven't read a word of Kaeko's ENM testing.

What part of my post makes you think that I think the enmity cap is lower than -50? Come on, after this much debate on this darn earring, can we skip the small talk? You know that I know the ins and outs of enmity as well as anyone.

My point is that enmity down is not like STR or MND or other stats which generally fall under the category of "the more, the merrier." While the cap is -50, you don't need -50, let alone -30 most of the time. We are not damage-dealers, the amount of enmity we generate doesn't increase as we become better, it decreases as we become more efficient at managing preventative spell casting so that our groups require less healing. Because healing is reaction-based, you only need a certain amount of enmity down based on circumstances to avoid pulling hate. More enmity down beyond that simply will not help you. Period. That number will be slightly different in each situation, and no you can't predict it beforehand; You have to anticipate it with some leeway in case things go sideways, but my point is that going completely overboard gains you nothing. Contrary to intuition, things like adding more cure potency to your gear don't really change your enmity down requirements, you will still need to heal the same amount of damage over the course of the fight. If you disagree with me up to this point, then I think you are the one who doesn't understand enmity. But I suspect we're on the same page so far, and our point of contention is on what I'm about to say, which is where that line gets drawn between "useful enmity down" and "useless enmity down." Sadly, what follows is a totally subjective argument that'll really just come down to your experience versus mine.


I roll with about -25 on most of my casts, and do not pull hate. Ever. I'm almost always the last person standing in a wipe, and it's not from a lack of trying to prevent the wipe. It's just because as long as I don't do something dumb, I cannot pull hate. Flash, Cure IV, Curaga III... I have no aversion to casting them whatsoever. My LS has been spamming VNMs lately and even with mobs that reset hate every minute or so, I simply do not pull hate. My play style has always been to balance keeping the other members of the alliance operational against my own MP efficiency, with very little regard for my own life. Early on I did get killed, and frequently due to lack of enmity down. Each time I got into a situation where I felt I was in danger, I made a mental note of it and tried to work a little more enmity down into my equipment next time. It's a constant process of self-reflection, and I still do it today, but since I hit about -25 about 3 years ago, it simply stopped happening altogether, so I stopped adding more enmity down.

Granted, that's my own play style, but until I start pulling hate while trying to do my duties to the best of my abilities I'll stand by my opinion that excessive enmity down is a crutch which allows you to be less efficient than you could be. Yes, some is needed, and that amount will be different for each person. Further, just so there's no misunderstanding, I believe it's important for a WHM to know when they do need more enmity down, and to pursue it. I just think Novia is a rather drastic measure compared to other options, like Errant Cape and Troopers Ring (the latter of which I don't even own, but I have some other pieces that I can't expect every WHM to have like Blessed+1, Marduk feet, White Tathlum, etc. that give me a slight enmity advantage over the typical WHM, resulting in not using Troopers OR Novia most of the time).

Anyway, I digress, you are right that I'm overly-harsh toward this earring, but it's mainly because I see people giving it such wild and unrelenting praise, and I think that's harmful to the white mage community. This earring should be viewed as a double-edged sword; It's dangerous because it gives you so much enmity down. Enmity down up to a certain point is good, but beyond that can serve to mask the player's own shortcomings while at the same time occupying valuable equipment slots.


With regard to the cure monkey comment, apologies to anyone who took offense to it. I don't judge any individuals here on the forum, I haven't seen you heal so I'm in no position to pass judgment. The generalization I made comes from the fact that every single cure-bomb WHM I've ever seen that exerts absolutely no effort toward performing their job exceptionally has used extensive enmity down gearsets to enable their survival. If they took off that Novia, they may well die casting so carelessly, but because they have Novia they can remain blissfully ignorant of how much potential they are wasting. Hence my comment about monkey WHM who don't really enjoy the job, but play it because their LS needs healers. Again, that's a generalization. I've seen your posts plenty of times before Eldelphia, and I know you take WHM seriously. I don't know your reason for thinking you need so much enmity down, but I do know that I don't need that much. Like I said earlier, it's truly a subjective topic. I don't know what we are doing differently. I wish I did. However, what I wish more, is for you to admit that it's a double-edged sword, even if we can't agree that Novia tends to fall on the trailing edge of that sword.
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#10 May 13 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Earrings are not really what I'd consider valuable equipment slots, at least as far as WHM is concerned. Other than maybe Roundel, which depending on server is still not even a viable option for most people, earrings for WHM are pretty much an argument of not which ones rock the most, but which ones suck the least.

For "active" earrings (read: earrings that aren't just for hMP), you've pretty much got Loq, Novia, or lolMagnetic as your "least sucky" choices to pair along with the Roundel. If you don't have/can't get Roundel, you get to choose two of those. If you also didn't pick lolMagnetic for your AN earring (which is a perfectly understandable choice) then surprise! Your options are pretty simple, because you only really have one. If you want to use something else anyway, go knock yourself out. Even the above listed three earrings don't matter that much, and like said above, if you don't pull hate anyway, the Novia isn't really doing anything for you, now is it?

In the end, it's kinda like arguing between /BLM and /SMN for WHM back before /SCH existed. Really, who gives a ****? If you run dry and can't do the job with one of those, you probably can't do it with the other sub either.
#11 May 13 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Contrary to intuition, things like adding more cure potency to your gear don't really change your enmity down requirements, you will still need to heal the same amount of damage over the course of the fight. If you disagree with me up to this point, then I think you are the one who doesn't understand enmity.


Not really. Almost all my healing is now handled by Cure's III and IV. 42% Cure Potency has rendered my Cure V to emergency use now, as I rarely if ever cure for the full amount. Cure IV on the other hand is right on the sweetspot where it's curing enough, but not enough to overcure.
So, as a simple consequence of using Standard Cures more over Cure V, more Enmity is generated; even if the HP healed remains the same. This trade off also improves MP efficiency.

Heck, Lightsday and Lightsweather are extremely dangerous to me now. This kind of things are very bad for my Enmity; but extremely nice for my MP Efficiency.

Quote:
My opinion that excessive enmity down is a crutch which allows you to be less efficient than you could be


My opinion is that it let's you be more efficient. It only becomes a crutch on the wrong hands.

Quote:
Anyway, I digress, you are right that I'm overly-harsh toward this earring, but it's mainly because I see people giving it such wild and unrelenting praise, and I think that's harmful to the white mage community.


You see, I don't think anyone here did anything like that. Heck, my advice was to check other things before getting it.

And as a personal thing: I see way more people that are scared of their Cure IV than people that are reckless with it. The kind of people that will drop a 600ish HP Cure V because they are scared of pulling hate; which is easily 10 times more inefficient than any gear can make up for.
If I where to say which is the lesser evil: piling up on -Enmity seems pretty harmless in comparison.

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#12 May 14 2010 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And as a personal thing: I see way more people that are scared of their Cure IV than people that are reckless with it. The kind of people that will drop a 600ish HP Cure V because they are scared of pulling hate; which is easily 10 times more inefficient than any gear can make up for.

I'm sorry, but i kind of do this D:. Well, the reason i do it is because while casting the cure itself, the person who i'm casting it at, his hp could drop higher resulting in cure V being more efficient, that's just my opinion lol
I do overuse Penury with Cure V a LOT too
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#13 May 14 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for your reply Perg, I don't think we're that far apart actually. I was irritated by your last comment I guess. It's not that I'm saying you should cram in -50ENM on every cure. ****, I've backed down from -36 I was once sitting at and I'll willingly admit part of the reason I love my Novia is that I have RDM and SCH too and it's invaluable on those jobs as well.

However I still see Novia as very useful for WHM. Predominantly because it's an efficient slot to stick it in, allowing other slots to free up. You can't get more bang for your buck, without losing other key stats than 7 ENM in an earring slot, except for Roundel.

Excuse the cut and paste from FFXIAH it was the quickest way for me to list the gear. Here's my Cure V set (-27 ENM)

input /equip head "Selenian Cap"; <-- here I have the -4ENM option
input /equip body "Aristocrat's Coat";
input /equip back "Errant Cape";
input /equip hands "Blessed Mitts";
input /equip waist "Cleric's Belt";
input /equip ear1 "Novia Earring";
input /equip sub "Reign Grip";
input /equip ear2 "Roundel Earring";
input /equip neck "Morgana's Choker";
input /equip ammo "Hedgehog Bomb";
input /equip main "Teiwaz";
input /equip feet "Marduk's Crackows"; <-- and clogs
input /equip legs "Tatsu. Sitagoromo"; < -- here I have the movement speed/cure potency option
input /equip ring1 "Karka Ring";
input /equip ring2 "Tamas Ring";

My gear is very good but not the absolute best you can get (yet). Improvements I am working on include Blessed +1 hands (want to sign them myself) and a change in the pants to MP and -ENM + cure pot (if I get my hands on gaiters). For other cures, I stick in the staff strap, stay in cure clogs and stick in my troopers ring.

The reason I like my Novia (and yes I have various other sets including an MP set, haste, enfeebling, repose, regen, etc etc) is that it takes care of a chunk of -ENM right there, allowing me to forget about it in other slots. I haven't lost out because I'm not wearing blessed for my cures or a p rope. It doesn't matter that I'm not using a staff strap etc.

I do quite a lot of smaller group things where my ability to stand there forever and not attract attention, even when things go nuts is important. I agree utterly, that some of that is experience but I think some of it is down to -ENM. I see a lot of newly-75 WHMs who haven't got a clue how to balance their gear and who generally have a clue about casting. I see them fall over a few times and then learn to regear to include some -ENM. Not everyone has access to the best rare ex gear and for MP starved races especially, 7 in one slot is freaking awesome.


Edited, May 14th 2010 4:31pm by eldelphia
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#14 May 14 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
I roll with about -25 on most of my casts, and do not pull hate. Ever.


(Deja vu, hmmm) This tells me that the people around you, at your events and such, are at least decent. I'm sure I've brought this up before, but that's not just your performance, it's the collective performance of you and others at the event.

Obviously if you're with some moron who vokes a mob or two just to ruin your life, and stands there not doing anything ... and nobody sleeps them or otherwise helps ........ keeping him alive would quickly give you hate.

I hope everyone here has the privilege of playing with good or great players, most of the time. But, personally, I have been in situations where we're short someone and we grab a dummy from Whitegate, or I'm doing someone a HUGE favor by helping his awful, awful friends wearing lv.10 gear. Whatever the case, stupid setups make it a lot easier to take hate.

You can say:
"Time to get new companions, /disband"
or
"I will try to save these poor idiots no matter what"

I like saving idiots, which might make me an idiot, but I don't care. After you've done all of endgame a billion times and never pull hate, it's the idiots and pickups that can make it extremely challenging again. :)

---

So rather than advising:
"Find your good amount and don't pile on a billion beyond that"


Instead, how about:
"Learn to live with little-to-no -enmity, THEN pile on as much as you like"


I could have sworn you described a similar idea, in the form of a challenge ... something like that.

---

I played for a very long time with around -10, and each time I tried something new, I quickly learned how not to pull hate. Then, coming back with -35 or more now, I can use the same tactics, but rest easy knowing I have breathing room to deal with complete morons as they arise.

Also:
Drakonite wrote:
as a simple consequence of using Standard Cures more over Cure V, more Enmity is generated; even if the HP healed remains the same. This trade off also improves MP efficiency

this



EDIT: Also, for the record, I <3 Perg and his jeweled banana ^_^

Edited, May 14th 2010 12:42pm by RyaWHM
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#15 May 14 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
lolMagnetic

I think this is where Fyn and I can't seem to see eye-to-eye on this debate. Conserve MP +5 is totally hot. I don't know how you can downplay this so much. Roundel + Magnetic are the ideal pieces to finish casting cures in, in my opinion. Yes, CMP+5 only works out to about 1.4% savings in the long run, but in practice it often ends up MUCH larger because one single activation can save up to 70 MP. We get 25% from /SCH or /BLM, plus another 5% from Magnetic and 3% from Selenian Cap assuming you have both. That right there is 33% activation, or about 9% MP savings which is kinda like having double Light Arts, and it's not hard to go well beyond 33% activation.

Conserve MP is utterly awesome, one of my favorite stats as a WHM and I'm really glad SE is releasing more CMP gear lately. In fact, I've even been thinking about starting to use Cobra Unit hands & feet on cures instead of Blessed+1 hands & Marduk feet. However, I'm giving up a lot more than enmity for that, and in larger amounts too. 4 enmity down, 6 haste, and 8 mnd from the hands for just CMP+3, or 4 enmity down and 10 mnd on the feet for CMP+3. The feet don't seem too bad of a loss, but the hands are a stretch because I like that 6% haste... either way it's a harder choice than giving up Novia.

Drakonite wrote:
Not really. Almost all my healing is now handled by Cure's III and IV. 42% Cure Potency has rendered my Cure V to emergency use now, as I rarely if ever cure for the full amount. Cure IV on the other hand is right on the sweetspot where it's curing enough, but not enough to overcure.
So, as a simple consequence of using Standard Cures more over Cure V, more Enmity is generated; even if the HP healed remains the same. This trade off also improves MP efficiency.

True enough, I suppose. I've actually been in this boat for long enough that I just assumed this was the case for most WHMs. It's very hard to use Cure V very much. I am familiar with the kind of WHM you speak of though. If they are so afraid of Cure IV, it's because it bit them in the past, which means they were doing something silly with it. Possible remedies are:
- Get more enmity down
- Play smarter
- Use Cure V instead

Cure V is pretty much the easiest possible solution that doesn't require them to change equipment or play style, so I think that's why most people immediately jump to it... I don't see an easy solution to this dilemma, and I do agree that the enmity down solution is better than the Cure V solution. However, playing smarter being the best option in my opinion, the community should discourage not just the Cure V solution but also advise caution with the enmity down solution, if not discourage it altogether. Maybe that's just me being an idealist, though. I tend to hold others to the same standard as I hold myself, and not everyone is as passionate about WHM as some of us are...

RyaWHM wrote:
(Deja vu, hmmm) This tells me that the people around you, at your events and such, are at least decent. I'm sure I've brought this up before, but that's not just your performance, it's the collective performance of you and others at the event.

Yes and no. To an extent yes, but I also do events with total nut-jobs. My LS is a small-man LS that does events twice a week, so I actually do a lot of pick-up stuff outside those 2 days (I love playing with new players, it brings a whole different dynamic to the same old boring fights). Even with poor tanks, I generally have no trouble avoiding hate. There are exceptions, though... those VNMs can be a pain, especially Skuld, she hates the Yagrush. I tend to just go WHM/NIN to those if I'm doing a pick-up group, unless I really trust the tank. Even capped enmity down wouldn't help me in some of those situations.

RyaWHM wrote:
EDIT: Also, for the record, I <3 Perg and his jeweled banana ^_^

<3 for the Chicken Wing of Bling (yes, it looks like a drumstick, but "Drumstick of Bling" doesn't rhyme)

Edited, May 14th 2010 11:58am by Pergatory
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#16 May 16 2010 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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Conserve MP +5 is totally hot.


1 to 1.5 MP saved over every 100 you use is not really hot to me no matter how you slice it. Yeah, it's possible to get 75 or so MP saved with a single CMP proc, but who is to say that you wouldn't have gotten that proc if you didn't wear the earring, anyway? (Innate CMP trait is CMP+25.) Bottom line is, over blowing 800 MP, which is nearly one's entire mana pool, the earring has an nearly unnoticeable effect and will have saved enough on average for an extra Cure 1, maybe two if we're being very nice. When you stack this up to things like what Ethereal Earring is capable of doing for my DRG, this is downright unimpressive to me.
#17 May 17 2010 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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i'm not going to get into most of this thread, but... low average gain just is low average gain. if it comes in 1 big chunk and is still a low average gain, it means that the earring is *doing nothing* the majority of the time. that's not so hot.

i mean

Quote:
Yes, CMP+5 only works out to about 1.4% savings in the long run, but in practice it often ends up MUCH larger because one single activation can save up to 70 MP.


this is simply false. if CMP works out to about 1.4% savings in the long run, in practice it works out to be... 1.4% savings. that you decide to look at the effect of CMP proc vs no proc, or arbitrarily cut up your sample size, that doesn't license you to start saying "in practice" you'll "get more". you get 1.4% if that's what CMP+5 gets you, period. that's what it means to "get you 1.4%".

on SAM, 5% DA for tachi gekko is not very powerful. this is because the strength of the first hit is much larger than the second (due to various bonuses). it's at most roughly 2.7%~ WS DoT, lower the higher mob DEF and EVA are. however, a landed DA can be about 50%~ more damage on a single WS. you can't infer that you suddenly "get more" than 2.7% WS damage from 5% DA.

Edited, May 17th 2010 4:12am by milich
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#18 May 17 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
this is simply false. if CMP works out to about 1.4% savings in the long run, in practice it works out to be... 1.4% savings. that you decide to look at the effect of CMP proc vs no proc, or arbitrarily cut up your sample size, that doesn't license you to start saying "in practice" you'll "get more". you get 1.4% if that's what CMP+5 gets you, period. that's what it means to "get you 1.4%".

To an extent you are correct, but you're looking at it all wrong. You're right that over the long term, it will always be 1.4% or **** near it. The larger your sample group, the closer to 1.4% it will be. However, quite often it'll be significantly more than 1.4% upon first activation, and slowly drop as you cast more and more spells. My point was that most WHM battles don't occur over the long run, not long enough for this to balance out to a consistent x.x% savings in practice, only in theory. You might have it activate on the very first cast and save you 50 MP out of 100. So right off the bat you're at 50% MP savings, and it falls from there with every cast, until next time it activates and you get another sharp spike. On the other hand, you might go a full battle without a single extra activation from that +5, and the value added ends up being 0%.

If you average it over many battles, it comes out to 1.4%, sure. But if you average over single battles, you're likely to see it sometimes well into the 10% range over the course of one battle, just from +5% activation rate. It's not an effect you can bet your life on, but it WILL make a difference, and it WILL change the course of battles. Not every battle, but some battles. That was my point. Even a little bit of CMP can change the course of one battle in a thousand, and let's be honest, that's all that 90% of the gear in this game is likely to do.

Take Novia for example. Enmity down is no different, depending on how you look at it. What value does enmity down add? It reduces the frequency with which you pull hate. What does Enmity -7 do for you if you wouldn't have pulled hate with or without it? In theory, it reduced your enmity by 7%, but in practice, it did nothing. You wouldn't have pulled hate, and you didn't. Net change: zero. Given, you don't know how much you'll need going into a fight. There's a randomness factor involved. The monster might be feeling particularly mean and decide to make you really exercise your enmity down set, or he might not. The Novia might save you, it might not. Over each battle, the value it provides you will be different, not a fixed 7% benefit. It may only make a difference in one battle in a thousand, just like Magnetic.

Things don't always work the same in practice as they do in theory. To successfully apply math to a topic you have to look at it in context, not just look at the numbers.
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#19 May 17 2010 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
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In theory, it reduced your enmity by 7%, but in practice, it did nothing. [...] Over each battle, the value it provides you will be different, not a fixed 7% benefit.


This is wrong. Whether you pull hate or not, you still get the reduced enmity. It IS a fixed benefit.
If the tank suddenly dies, or hate resets you still have 7% less accumulated hate. If the mob is after you, you still have less enmity that needs to be shaved before it bothers someone else.

Saying the reduced enmity has zero net gain if you didn't pull hate is the same as saying that any of Conserve MP procs are zero gain unless they actually save the day. Its just not how it works.



Edited, May 17th 2010 8:07pm by Drakonite
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#20 May 18 2010 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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The point im seeing here, is if you are not pulling hate, why not throw on CMP?

Even if it is only 1.4%, there is really no reason Not to. Sure its only 1-2 cures, its still Mp, and again, if you are mot pulling hate without Novia, then realisticly, CMP cannot hurt.

I typically ride with -18 Emnity, and about the only times i pull hate is in Dyna if i do a Div Seal Penury Curaga 3 and then the tank dies (which has happened all of once)

I don't have ideal gear by any means, i know that, but im comfertable with where my emnity sits. Heck, im still useing a geist earring XD (i don't have sea access yet)

Mp saved is Mp saved, does not really matter how much it is. If you can save Mp and not really lose anything else, i don't see a reason not to do it.
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#21 May 18 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Oh I agree with pretty much all your argument. CMP is good for the mundane things like Haste, Regens, Protects, Re/Raises, Auspice/Stoneskin/Blink, Barspells and other random things; which make over 50% of my spells cast.

I just don't see the point of picking it over an earring on its strongest area (Novia on Cures/Curagas, Flash), the same way I don't pick Novia on Magnetic's strongest areas (Everything else). Macros exist for a reason.

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#22 May 18 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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Yes lucky, that's pretty much exactly what I'm trying to say, thank you.

Drakonite wrote:
I just don't see the point of picking it over an earring on its strongest area (Novia on Cures/Curagas, Flash), the same way I don't pick Novia on Magnetic's strongest areas (Everything else).

The point is simple; The fact that Cures & Flash are where Novia shines the most doesn't change the fact that if you CANNOT benefit from more enmity down, then CMP (in any amount) will still be more useful. It's like buying a big ol' gas-guzzling SUV to drive around when you never haul anything with it or take it off-road. You could've saved tons of money with a more efficient car, but you wanted the SUV in case of some unforeseen situation where you might be glad you had it. Odds are that situation never comes and you're paying for convenience you'll never use.

Again, it's subjective. I'm not saying ditch the Novia, I'm saying consider ditching it. Consider trying something different. DON'T lock yourself into one mindset. Evolve your WHM constantly, don't let it stagnate. What was true 12 months ago may not be true anymore.

When the day comes (and it may well come, with level caps being raised to 99) where MP is simply not an issue anymore, and just keeping alive with the tools available to you becomes the primary challenge, then Magnetic & Novia's positions will reverse. Novia will be the default choice, falling back to Magnetic if your MP gets pitifully low but generally not needing to worry about MP and so Novia becomes the obvious choice. Maybe this is currently the case for some of you already. Maybe you have Ballad, Evoker's Roll, and Sublimation going full-time with one dedicated healer per tank and one per 3 DDs, and you just don't ever run out of MP. If that's the case, I could see why you might laugh at the prospect of using Magnetic over Novia. However, I don't think that's the case for most people yet. In my experience, MP sustenance continues to be the primary stress point for WHM, not enmity.
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#23 May 18 2010 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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When the day comes (and it may well come, with level caps being raised to 99) where MP is simply not an issue anymore, and just keeping alive with the tools available to you becomes the primary challenge, then Magnetic & Novia's positions will reverse.


This is my current situation. I actually think the level cap will have an inverse effect. Having everyone with 400+ more HP to play with will make Cure V more useful overall. That, and that leveling up usually means that the Per-HP Cured enmity will be reduced (Since it gets lower the higher your level).

Edit: How did I miss this gem:

Quote:
It's like buying a big ol' gas-guzzling SUV to drive around when you never haul anything with it or take it off-road. You could've saved tons of money with a more efficient car, but you wanted the SUV in case of some unforeseen situation where you might be glad you had it. Odds are that situation never comes and you're paying for convenience you'll never use.


This analogy is horrible and you should feel bad for it. It's way out of proportions. By comparison, Magnetic would be the same SUV, with 1.4% more fuel efficiency; but 7% less carrying capacity.

Anyways, I think it all boils down to this:

Quote:
The fact that Cures & Flash are where Novia shines the most doesn't change the fact that if you CANNOT benefit from more enmity down, then CMP (in any amount) will still be more useful.


This fact is correct. What you fail to account for is that the point where you can no longer benefit from more enmity down is at -50 Enmity (Because it is an actual cap). No, not pulling hate doesn't magically mean you're not getting any benefit; sorry.







Edited, May 18th 2010 2:30pm by Drakonite
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#24 May 18 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
Things don't always work the same in practice as they do in theory.


i really wish you would stop saying this... do you not know what "in practice" and "in theory" mean? in practice, 5% activation rate works exactly as you theoretically would expect it to. is context important? of course it is. does context change "practice" from what "theory" predicts? NO.

again, deciding to use 1 fight (the one in which the effect went off) and saying what % the proc rate was over that fight is not an exception to what theory predicts. it's either a fundamental misunderstanding about probability, or rhetorical theatrics.

"i like the big gain that only happens in 5% of fights more than the small gain over all fights," awesome. the big gain still only happens 5% of the time. it's not more useful (and certainly not "higher proc rate in practice") because you like it. it's 5%. say things that are true, not false.
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#25 May 19 2010 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
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However, I don't think that's the case for most people yet. In my experience, MP sustenance continues to be the primary stress point for WHM, not enmity.


It's interesting how different our experiences are in game. I find the exact opposite to be true, especially in new-to-75 WHMs. I've dropped a ton of MP gear in favour of other stats and still have breathing room. SCH was the best thing to happen to WHM in a long time but add in COR/BRD/RDM/SMN and better hMP gear I just don't see MP sustenance as a serious issue anymore. Now to see whether /SCH lasts or whether we'll all be /RDM by the end of next month...

Edited, May 19th 2010 10:10am by eldelphia
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#26 May 19 2010 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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Now to see whether /SCH lasts or whether we'll all be /RDM by the end of next month...

To be honest really, I'm not sure if a 10 minute per mp healing (Convert) coupled with a possible close call on death (which is really all I'm picky about on @ Convert), would be more mp healing than Sublimations MP. I dunno which is higher in the long run but i <3 /sch still for Light Arts
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#27 May 19 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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An unbuffed Sublimation at the very most will only generate 400 MP every 10 minutes. In practice, it will generate less than this, because Sublimation takes less than 10 minutes to max out, and will therefore face at minimum a span of 30 seconds where no Sublimation charge is building. So at most, about 380 MP every 10 minutes.

So yeah, comparing only those two things, Convert is a clear winner. The question that should be asked is whether or not Convert will beat the entire /SCH package, which is going to depend on situational factors. Bear in mind 2 things:

1) If you're in a situation where you can get Refresh, Sublimation is effectively placed out of the equation, eliminating one of the main MP advantages /SCH has
2) Assuming /SCH will get Accession at 40 though, it is quite possible Hastega will help make up for that lost advantage

It'll be interesting to see how things pan out, in any case.
#28 May 19 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
1) If you're in a situation where you can get Refresh, Sublimation is effectively placed out of the equation, eliminating one of the main MP advantages /SCH has


You got this backwards :3
If you can get refresh, then /SCH gains one of /RDM's advantage.

Anyways, I do expect to need to come /RDM once in a while in the future. Not because of my own MP, but because Refresh Duty will likely be placed on me if that means the RDM can help a different party ><

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#29 May 19 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Convert is level 40, refresh is level 41.

Don't get in too big a hurry to be mass refreshing people just yet as WHM/RDM.
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#30 May 19 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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If you can get refresh, then /SCH gains one of /RDM's advantage.


Uhh, no...

Refresh doesn't stack with Sublimation. If you can get Refresh, Sublimation doesn't get used, therefore it gets taken out of the /RDM vs. /SCH picture.
#31 May 19 2010 at 9:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
If you can get refresh, then /SCH gains one of /RDM's advantage.


Uhh, no...

Refresh doesn't stack with Sublimation. If you can get Refresh, Sublimation doesn't get used, therefore it gets taken out of the /RDM vs. /SCH picture.


Uhh... no. If you can get Refresh (IE: a RDM casts it on you) then /RDM only offers convert, while /SCH still offers everything else. This is an advantage pro /SCH (Since you now have the best refresh) and against /RDM (Refresh redundancy).

In this case, both refresh and sublimation gets out of the picture, favoring /SCH.

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#32 May 19 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Uhh... no. If you can get Refresh (IE: a RDM casts it on you) then /RDM only offers convert, while /SCH still offers everything else.


No, not everything. Sublimation is no longer used because you're getting Refresh (whether it's from someone else or yourself at 82+), thus lessening /SCH's lead.

I really don't see what is so hard to understand here...
#33 May 19 2010 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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I think he meant everything else as in Light Arts? I'm not sure.
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#34 May 20 2010 at 12:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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No, not everything. Sublimation is no longer used because you're getting Refresh (whether it's from someone else or yourself at 82+), thus lessening /SCH's lead.


Ok, this is really simple:

- Refresh is better than Sublimation MP-wise.
- You will be able to get refresh Natively from /RDM two updates from now.
- The MP Comparison will be between Convert/Refresh VS Arts/Stratagems/Sublimation/CMP
- If /SCH can get an outside refresh, the comparison is Convert/Refresh VS Arts/Stratagems/Refresh/CMP. The /SCH now has the benefit of refresh, while /RDM stays equal.

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#35 May 20 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Good
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You know that SE is bound to throw in something new just to mix this up even more. Every time we think we have our heads around how things are going to work, they introduce something new to the mix. All it takes is one new JA or spell and it all swings off in another direction.
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#36 May 20 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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No no no Drakon, I think your last statement before that was misunderstood.
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Uhh... no. If you can get Refresh (IE: a RDM casts it on you) then /RDM only offers convert, while /SCH still offers everything else. This is an advantage pro /SCH (Since you now have the best refresh) and against /RDM (Refresh redundancy).

In this case, both refresh and sublimation gets out of the picture, favoring /SCH.

I think that statement was misunderstood as ALL benefits of /SCH including Sublimation thus,
Quote:
No, not everything. Sublimation is no longer used because you're getting Refresh
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#37 May 20 2010 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow.

Let's try and lay this out in a way you'll understand:


Currently /SCH has Sublimation, and /RDM has... well, nothing.

/SCH: 2
/RDM: 0

Now bring Refresh into the picture. But wait! Refresh does not stack with Sublimation! Gotta scratch those two points off.

/SCH: 3
/RDM: 3

Oh look, it's a tie now! Why is that? Because as I've said, Sublimation was taken out of the picture.

/SCH isn't gaining any advantage here. By introducing Refresh, /SCH actually *loses* its advantage because it can no longer take advantage of Sublimation, which is one of the main things that made /SCH a superior MP-conserving sub in the first place. That's not to say the sub is crap now, there are plenty of other reasons to sub it... but bottom line is, going from nothing -> Refresh is a much greater difference than going from Sublimation -> Refresh, and this does narrow the gap between /SCH and /RDM (or any other sub, really)
#38 May 20 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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You don't understand. Look:

Quote:
Currently /SCH has Sublimation, and /RDM will have refresh.

/SCH: 2
/RDM: 3

Now bring Refresh into the picture. But wait! Refresh does not stack with Sublimation!

/SCH: 3
/RDM: 3


Yes, sublimation is taken out of the picture. But because refresh is better, this works out to improve the /SCH one that no longer relies on the weaker MP recovery.

You wouldn't /RDM if there is someone in your party willing to refresh you, would you? I wouldn't, because /RDM would only offer convert.
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#39 May 21 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Lets look at other stings then refresh/Sublimation.

/Sch
(assuming AoE Stratagem is granted)Stoneskinga
Hastega
Blinkga
Aquaveilga
Regenga 3 :D
Poisonaga (all other na's Ga)
10% Cost cut on all Whm spells
Conserve MP Job trait
Resist Silence Job Trait
Aspirga
Drainga
Sleepga

/Rdm
Convert
Bind
Poison
Blind
Ice Spikes
Enspells
Gravity
Phalanx
Bio 2


Please tell me if i missed anything big. But what it seems to me, is for events, and parties we'll be subbing sch still and sticking with sublimation, heck maybe they'll finally give whm an Auto-refresh trait we have no idea.

For solo play like campaign or skilling solo we'd sub rdm.

Sch is going to offer more in terms of party support than Rdm will. So really its not so different from now. for solo play like skilling shield, Rdm is amazing, the only issue i have is MP (and thats cause i don't have boon yet) But adding refresh and Ice Spikes will make soloing all that much easier. Convert is just icing on the cake here.

Plan on leveling both tho, because even tho /Sch will offer hastega, /Rdm is Still a refresh, and while Pld/Rdm is potent, i don't forsee that being the new tank in parties just yet.

Edit: Meant Poisona-ga, missed the a XD

Edited, May 21st 2010 3:59pm by dmhlucky
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#40 May 21 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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SCH doesn't get Poison :x

NM I read that wrong. Poisonaga not the same as Poisonga. Sneaky a's/

Edited, May 21st 2010 5:05pm by Drakonite
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#41 May 22 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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Drainga


For when dynamis is just boring the **** out of you, AOE drain all the slept mobs.

Generally one would think that in situations where you would need to use drain, you probably shouldnt be draining from everything in our vicinity.
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#42 May 22 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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You wouldn't /RDM if there is someone in your party willing to refresh you, would you? I wouldn't, because /RDM would only offer convert.


I think this pretty much summarizes your point Drak, at least, the part that Fyn wasn't getting. I won't be /RDM period, the time and MP saved from being able to Accession Haste onto an entire party alone leaves Convert in the dust, for me.

Pretty much the only thing that I can see WHM/RDM being useful for in the future is things that; A: I would either be /RDM for already (Gravity and Phalanx? Not very frequently necessary kthx) or 2: Extreme low-man stuff with a PLD/NIN, or maybe NIN/DRK.
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#43 May 26 2010 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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or when dynamis is just boring the **** out of you, AOE drain all the slept mobs.


That made me laugh... just imagine a WHM drainga the entire bunch of slept mobs...
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#44 May 26 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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eldelphia wrote:
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or when dynamis is just boring the **** out of you, AOE drain all the slept mobs.


That made me laugh... just imagine a WHM drainga the entire bunch of slept mobs...
I have a feeling that it's only a matter of time before I die to this (I usually go to dynamis as BLM). Hope none of my WHMs are here reading and getting ideas.
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#45 May 26 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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I have an anecdote on my SCH. One Dyna-Bastok, our group was getting ready to -ga the 3 statues on the way to cannonball. As usual, I was getting ready to sleep-ga and Gravi-ga all the adds when they popped.

The -ga killed all the statues, but the mobs did aggro. So as usual I hit my Manifestation (-ga) macro, and then my Sleep Macro; but the mobs would not sleep. It took me about 10 seconds to realize what had just happened.
I had somehow moved to my utility spells palette, in which Bio II is on the same place where my Sleep II macro usually lies. Manifestation works with Bio. Hilarity ensured.

<_<;
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