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So, will you be levelling RDM?Follow

#1 Mar 05 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you don't already have it, does anyone else think there's a serious chance that /RDM may be come a necessity for 99 WHMs? I love my /SCH and I'm guessing we'll still use it but we may need /RDM now? I guess it depends a lot on what other spells they give us on the way up and whether they nerf convert and refresh at all for subjobs?

Subbing SCH at 99 may net you Manifestation, Accession and...

04 Stone
08 Water
12 Aero
16 Fire
20 Blizzard
21 Drain
24 Thunder
30 Sleep●
30 Stone II
32 Dispel●
34 Water II
36 Aspir
38 Aero II
41 Sandstorm
42 Fire II
43 Rainstorm
45 Windstorm
46 Klimaform - probably not because its the SCH AF1?
46 Blizzard II
47 Firestorm
49 Hailstorm

But you still save all the nice things that you have with Light Arts, Sublimation, Conserve MP etc. Sublimation will take longer to charge of course with higher HP. Another charge would be nice but I doubt we'd see it as it doesn't kick in on SCH til after 48.


Subbing RDM at 99 may net you Convert, Magic Attack Bonus II and Magic Defense Bonus II [[b]Edit: irrelevant as we have higher already] and[/b]... It may become necessary to sub RDM sometimes especially as you get

04 Stone
05 Poison
08 Blind
09 Water
10 Bio
11 Bind
14 Aero
16 Enthunder
18 Enstone
19 Fire
20 Blaze Spikes
20 Enaero
21 Gravity
22 Enblizzard
24 Blizzard
24 Enfire
25 Sleep
27 Enwater
29 Thunder
32 Dispel
33 Phalanx
35 Stone II
36 Bio II
39 Barvirus
40 Ice Spikes
40 Water II
41 Refresh
45 Aero II
46 Poison II
46 Sleep II

No extra Fast Cast trait as that doesn't kick in until later. I'd speculate they could mess with the convert ratio, but they may not touch it. Sleep II is a nice bonus. Blind, Grav, Sleep, Dispel (without having to change to Dark Arts. Phalanx would be nice too as we get access to enhancing gear but a lot of the benefits from subbing RDM are from convert/fresh.

Subbing BLM at 99 would give you only an extended spell list of...

01 Stone
03 Poison
04 Blind
05 Water
07 Bind
09 Aero
10 Bio
10 Blaze Spikes
12 Drain
13 Fire
15 Stonega
16 Shock
17 Blizzard
17 Warp
18 Rasp
19 Waterga
20 Choke
20 Ice Spikes
20 Sleep
21 Thunder
22 Frost
23 Aeroga
24 Burn
24 Poisonga
25 Aspir
25 Tractor
26 Stone II
27 Drown
28 Firaga
29 Escape
30 Shock Spikes
30 Water II
31 Sleepga
32 Blizzaga
34 Aero II
35 Bio II
36 Thundaga
38 Fire II
40 Stonega II
40 Warp II
41 Sleep II
42 Blizzard II
43 Poison II
44 Waterga II
45 Stun
46 Thunder II
48 Aeroga II


Subbing SMN would give you Resist Slow II and the following

38 Crimson Howl -- Ifrit
39 Sleepga -- Shiva
42 Lightning Armor -- Ramuh
43 Ecliptic Growl -- Fenrir
44 Glittering Ruby -- Carbuncle
46 Earthen Ward -- Titan
47 Spring Water -- Leviathan
48 Hastega -- Garuda
49 Noctoshield -- Diabolos


Another way of getting an AoE Stoneskin and Haste but Hastega will last 90s and the stoneskin is limited by Avatar level.


I think we may see /RDM become stronger for WHM and a more serious contender for /SCH than either /SMN or /BLM. I'm guessing though that the light arts benefits will scale up too when you're looking at 200+ MP per spell but I can see an argument for /RDM on the horizon (even if I don't want to!)



Edited, Mar 5th 2010 4:11pm by eldelphia

Edited, Mar 8th 2010 2:17pm by eldelphia
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#2 Mar 05 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I will be leveling it, sadly it seems inevitable. Even if Refresh is nerfed, there will be situations where I'll want to be able to refresh other party members and Sublimation just can't do that.

As for Convert, I suspect they'll nerf it to half MP, in which case it's hard to say whether it'll beat out /SCH for efficiency. Refresh & Sublim will likely roughly cancel each other out, which puts Convert in direct competition with Light Arts. I'd miss Light Arts quite a bit... so assuming 50% MP from Convert I think it's likely /SCH may still win out. However, if it's full potency, /RDM will reign supreme. I can get up to ~1150 HP / 1150 MP with MP food active, so that's 1150 MP every 5 minutes on top of Refresh. Light Arts just can't compete, unless it's a battle where Convert is too dangerous.

EDIT: Also I think the direction they are going with increasing the level limit is to intentionally open the floodgates. As one of the devs recently alluded to in an interview question about the possibility of Refresh II, they personally would like to give more MP regain so as to let people go nuts with their casting and spam spells. This is in line with my first thoughts when I heard the news. It seems like they want to make this game more fast-paced. For those who have done the final Shantotto battle, I think that's similar to what this game will be like in the future. You won't necessarily be limited so much by MP as your ability to cast quickly and keep things running smoothly. This makes me think losing Celerity may be a bigger hit than we currently think. It also makes me think the Convert may not be nerfed at all for subs... could be a really tough choice. Could be a question of whether you want bottomless MP, or faster reaction time.

Edited, Mar 5th 2010 10:58am by Pergatory
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#3 Mar 05 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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A few Corrections: MDB II from /RDM doesn't stack with our native MDB IV. Convert is every 10 mintues not every 5 =P

/RDM Offers Fast Cast II, which is 5% more than Light Art's.

All in all, what I'd probably miss more is just Light Arts in general. I like having my B+ in Enhancing/Enfeebling; on top of all the other goodies it comes with.

But yeah, /RDM may not be the best sub; but it'll probably be required if you ever need to be on Refresh Duty.

I expect us to be switching from /RDM and /SCH a lot.

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#4 Mar 05 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't think that MDB2 traits gonna do much for a whm primary :P I'll prolly try out both since I already have them at SJ level.

Convert would offer sick mp returns and allow for huge burst healing, but /sch has all those lovely efficiencies and trickery that you get used to after a while. :P

without actually thinking about it I couldn't say which I'd prefer, both will be awesome*.

* awesomeness subject to change at the discretion of SE. xD
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#5 Mar 05 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Also need to point out for /smn that Siphon is 50, so we'd never see it as sub unless they move it.

And I am so glad my rdm is already 50 and done.
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#6 Mar 05 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a RDM main, so yeah :p

/SCH will still have reasons to be used I'm sure, just like how /BLM does (Accession Cure 5 might have potential in certain situations). As a general default sub though, I do think /RDM is going to win out. As awesome as Light Arts savings, Conserve MP, and five uses of Penury every 10 minutes can be (bear in mind that since the sub is capped at 49, we're still not going to get a 3rd stratagem charge with /SCH), it's not going to outdo another 1/tic from casted Refresh and Convert. If your target is easily Aspirable though, the race can get pretty close.

/SCH would have more potential for sure if you were partied with RDM (or /RDM) and SE finally made Sublimation stack with Refresh like it should have from the beginning, but that's probably not going to happen.
#7 Mar 05 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Oops 10 minutes for Convert, my bad. That brings it back to only slightly appealing. Let's run some real rough numbers:

Figure you can get 1100 HP/MP, minus 135 for a Cure V afterward = 965 MP every 10 minutes.

In order for /SCH to compete in terms of efficiency alone, you'd need to save 965 MP in 10 minutes through Light Arts, Penury, and Conserve MP. Penury is pretty easy, we know we'll get 5 charges in 10 minutes, and I think we can safely assume about 50 MP savings per activation, so Penury should cover about 250 of that 965. Light Arts is a flat 9% or so MP reduction on average, and I think I remember the base Conserve MP trait giving about 7% as well, so we're looking at about 16% MP savings per cast. For that 16% to cover the remaining 715 MP difference, you'd have to spend 4469 MP per 10 minutes, or 24.8 MP per 3.33 second tick.

That seems rather extreme for current game mechanics, but not entirely impossible for shorter battles. As MP regain rate increases through new spells or whatnot, this could become even more feasible, but still is a surprisingly high number. It'd be crazy hard to sustain 25 MP/tick output for very long on WHM/SCH.



On the other hand, if we assume half strength Convert, we'd be getting only 550 MP per 10 minutes, minus 135 for a Cure V = 415 MP every 10 minutes. Subtract what you could save with Penury, and the base Light Arts + Conserve MP need only cover about 165 MP in savings over 10 minutes which would be trivial. At 16% savings, you'd have to spend only 1031 MP in 10 minutes to do that, or about 5.7 MP per tick which is well within reason. You could do that with Sublimation & two Ballads easily without even resting.



Conclusion: In terms of MP efficiency alone, full strength Convert would mean /RDM is probably a fair bit more efficient than /SCH. Half strength Convert would probably not be competitive with /SCH at all. I suspect we'll be getting full strength Convert after all, and it won't be quite as game-breaking as people suspect.

Edited, Mar 5th 2010 3:34pm by Pergatory
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#8 Mar 05 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I would be very surprised if Convert gets a power cut when subbed. It would pretty much defeat the purpose of showcasing a WHM using Convert in one of their Vanafest images, because if they made subbed Convert behave that way, it isn't going to make anyone want to use /RDM, other than the BLMs who already do.

IMO subbed Convert already is going to have two significant penalties in my eyes:

1) Just because you're a job with MP does not mean you will be able to use Convert effectively due to low max MP (looking mainly at PLD, BLU to a lesser extent)
2) You won't be able to get Convert recast merits. (Go RDM!)

But yeah, assuming full strength Convert; I agree in that I do not think going from /SCH -> /RDM is going to make nearly as big of a difference as going from /anythingelse -> /SCH has done, but I do think that overall MP efficiency will still improve even further which can't be a bad thing.

Also, being able to Refresh people in the party other than yourself will expand WHM's viability as well. At least for me, whether or not I get to bring WHM or RDM to a particular event often depends solely on whether or not a PLD will be in my party.

Edited, Mar 5th 2010 7:21pm by Fynlar
#9 Mar 05 2010 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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Also, you might want to adjust your strategem count for Penury usage - you're probably only going to be using three charges every 10 minutes for Penury, with the other two going to keeping Accession + Haste going.

And who knows if/how Accession from sub is going to get hit. (Probably just bump the time and MP modifiers from 2x on main to 3x on sub.)

I'm suspecting either half-strength or 2/3-strength Convert, more likely the latter now than the former. (Possibly even 3/4-strength, which still gives RDM-main Convert an advantage over /RDM - something important to keep in mind when you look at SCH/RDM vs. RDM/SCH at 96+. There's not a whole lot of distinguishing features there, and they're mostly on SCH's side...)
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#10 Mar 05 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Possibly even 3/4-strength, which still gives RDM-main Convert an advantage over /RDM


It already has one -- recast merits.
#11 Mar 05 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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Possibly even 3/4-strength, which still gives RDM-main Convert an advantage over /RDM


It already has one -- recast merits.
Eh, that still doesn't make up for what SCH/RDM has over RDM/SCH for those last four levels...
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#12 Mar 05 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
I'll be leveling rdm just to have just in case.(like /blm) But unless someone can convince me that the sub is necessary for a specific strategy I will be subbing sch over rdm. I have no problem managing my mp now with /sch and most likely they will be adding stronger buffs to rdm main that will not stack with teir 1 refresh. So I will preferably stay on /sch.


And with the addition of getting access to manifestation. We also get a native aoe sleepga. So I am not even sure I should have blm up and ready.
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#13 Mar 06 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Eh, that still doesn't make up for what SCH/RDM has over RDM/SCH for those last four levels...


Well yeah, but we're not talking about SCH main here >_>

As they currently are, RDM/SCH and SCH/RDM would be pretty much the same job, except SCH gives up its melee ability to be a far better caster. I'm hoping that SE is smart enough to differ these two jobs a bit more.
#14 Mar 06 2010 at 1:27 AM Rating: Decent
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mdenham wrote:
Also, you might want to adjust your strategem count for Penury usage - you're probably only going to be using three charges every 10 minutes for Penury, with the other two going to keeping Accession + Haste going.


Haste is 3m, so it's gotta be cast 4 times during that 10 minutes period. (And please do not mention cycling Refreshga with the other strat.)

Fynlar wrote:
As they currently are, RDM/SCH and SCH/RDM would be pretty much the same job, except SCH gives up its melee ability to be a far better caster. I'm hoping that SE is smart enough to differ these two jobs a bit more.


If they don't, there'll be a lot of howling, from both rdms and schs. (Isn't /sch inconvenient for rdm anyway? Don't answer that - this is the wrong forum.)
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#15 Mar 06 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Decent
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(Isn't /sch inconvenient for rdm anyway? Don't answer that - this is the wrong forum.)


It can be, depending on the RDM's role. Generally, if you don't have to juggle Arts, then it can be quite awesome. If all you're doing is nuking stuff down for instance, Dark Arts is a HUGE boost to a nuking RDM, and quite possibly even more so in the future particularly if RDM main gets tier 4 nukes.

Sorry, but RDM is my job; I have to answer any inquiries that I can about it. >_>
#16 Mar 06 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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kasandaro wrote:
Isn't /sch inconvenient for rdm anyway? Don't answer that - this is the wrong forum.

Why would it be inconvenient? I Smiley: inloveSmiley: inloveSmiley: inlove RDM/SCH. I use it every party/alliance/soloing situation possible, assuming I don't need Erase, Sleepga, -na spells, or shadows.

Edited, Mar 6th 2010 2:02am by chewzer
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#17 Mar 06 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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kasandaro wrote:
mdenham wrote:
Also, you might want to adjust your strategem count for Penury usage - you're probably only going to be using three charges every 10 minutes for Penury, with the other two going to keeping Accession + Haste going.


Haste is 3m, so it's gotta be cast 4 times during that 10 minutes period. (And please do not mention cycling Refreshga with the other strat.)
Yeah, confused the durations of Haste and Stoneskin, but at three minutes you'd have to refigure the whole thing on a half-hour basis (you get 5 charges for Penury and 10 for Hastega, vs. 3x Convert).

Either that, or I was predicting that Haste II will have a 5-minute duration. Take your pick. :-)

EDIT to respond to chewzer: And once the cap hits 80, you can move Erase from the "RDM/SCH doesn't get it" list to "RDM/SCH gets it if they're willing to blow a charge on Addendum: White", just like most of the -na spells (you want Stona, you'll have to go /WHM, sorry :-D).

Edited, Mar 6th 2010 10:17am by MDenham
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#18 Mar 06 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
And with the addition of getting access to manifestation. We also get a native aoe sleepga. So I am not even sure I should have blm up and ready.


Keep in mind this would be extremely limited. To access Sleep you need Add: Black, so you'd need to have both stratagems available to do that (Assuming you start on Light Arts).

On the other side... this gives us AoE Aspir for only 1 stratagem.

The One and Only chewzer wrote:
Why would it be inconvenient? I <3 <3 <3 RDM/SCH. I use it every party/alliance/soloing situation possible, assuming I don't need Erase, Sleepga, -na spells, or shadows.


And now with /SCH49 available, you'll get that Erase, Sleep I/II-ga, and the other -NA spells to go with the **** arts :3

Funnily enough, Stona is STILL out of reach. Altho you can sub /WHM for that now.

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#19 Mar 06 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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@Chewser: Figured that since LA/DA has a 1-minute recast, and when I remember levelling rdm, I was constantly casting alternating spells, the penalties added up.

Mdenham wrote:
Yeah, confused the durations of Haste and Stoneskin, but at three minutes you'd have to refigure the whole thing on a half-hour basis (you get 5 charges for Penury and 10 for Hastega, vs. 3x Convert).

Either that, or I was predicting that Haste II will have a 5-minute duration. Take your pick. :-)


>.> but I've gotten used to /sch. I'm really thinking that, if 'vert and 'fresh are uncapped, then /sch is gonna be used a lot less. Boo.
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#20 Mar 07 2010 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Imagine if haste2 was whm only... That would put us on top..

yeah..
#21 Mar 07 2010 at 2:59 AM Rating: Good
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If the rate of MP-depletion doesn't change much from 75 to 99, I think /SCH will still be fine. Rather, I hope it is, because it'd be very fun to have another alternative to Yagrush in our ********

Luckily my RDM is 75 already, but I'm sure there will be situations where /RDM will be lots of fun, and now it will be tied with /BLM for its MAB II trait -- so if WHMs do get this free nuke they mentioned, that would be spiffy ... !

One thing I know I'll love is being able to quickly D2 people all over the world:
Teleport / Recall >>> Warp II
or even:
Teleport / Recall >>> Escape >>> Warp II
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#22 Mar 07 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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You know, I haven't thought of that. WHM/BLM is now THE ultimate Convenience Travel Taxi Machine.

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#23 Mar 08 2010 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
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One thing I would suggest is level it. Have the options.

I plan on getting all my subs to 49 as an option.

BLM gets stun - which is a nice thing to have on certain NM/HNMs/God fights + RDM refresh
SMN gets radar - this is usefull for Ny if your an active WHM and DD's tend to /NIN - also auto refresh + RDM Refresh
SCH does have some good things, at the moment its a winner but if I always got a RDM with me I tend to choose /SMN - having all that refresh to me over rates the need for /SCH. Although some will say its like having +11 refresh - no its not. Depending on a lot on how you use it.

I would still choose /SCH as the winner at the moment - soon to be RDM. but always keep the option.


Thanks for the post, all that info is helpful :)

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#24 Mar 08 2010 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry for the errors, updated and thanks for the corrections. I only realised that /BLM would net you Warp II after this, amazing travel capabilities.

Just imagine if you had WHM80/BLM40 for helping with the Zilart Missions...
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#25 Mar 08 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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In terms of MP savings I think accession could be comparable to penury in some cases anyway. Since it only doubles the cost of the spell that means you save 40 MP by doing accession haste rather than 3 separate hastes, assuming they don't up the MP multiplier, and on top of that people you might not normally haste (including yourself) will get it.

The other thing that might be worth considering is whether hastega and stoneskinga will last long enough that you could get away with resting for a couple of ticks, because even 2 ticks resting is about 100 MP. On top of all that, /SCH will still have aspir with decent skill, while /RDM won't.

That said, I can see the potential in /RDM, especially if convert works at normal strength, for the slightly suicidal WHM it even offers the potential for a very easy medicine ring activation.
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#26 Mar 08 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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DominiousTaru wrote:
In terms of MP savings I think accession could be comparable to penury in some cases anyway. Since it only doubles the cost of the spell
I'm going to stop you right there and point out that we don't know what adjustments will be made to it when it's subbed, and that it was originally a 3x multiplier to the cost of the spell.

Also, it doubles the casting time at present.
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