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/Sch - Not Getting it or Doing it wrong?Follow

#1 Feb 26 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
I ended up taking a break at the end of last year and still having these thoughts. Ultimately, I'm not fully seeing how /SCH is the end-all/be-all sub for WHM. Now, before I get fully flamed for such, I admit that it could be me doing it wrong.

Here's my typical scenario:
Been whm since day 1 of NA PC Release, no issues with the job and been 99% of the time /SMN prior to /SCH coming out. I did a lot of /SCH before my break and while it was good, I had some concerns with it.

Most of my playtime is dedicated towards endgame events - primarily dynamis, salvage, and sea. I rarely take WHM to a true merit party and most of the time I'm in a party with a RDM.

When I'm /Sch, I have updated macros that's focused on utilizing stratagem (i.e. Penury -> Wait 1 -> Cure V; Celerity -> Wait 1 -> Erase; etc.). Unless I use Celerity for everything, the Wait required to pull off the ability can lead to just that much longer to get the spell off. Lastly, Sublimation is great but when RDMs keep trying to refresh you, it's not all that's good imo.

Now, I DO like the -mp cost thanks to Light Arts and also like that Dark Arts + Addendum : Black gives us enough Dispel power to do Lamia 13 w/ little issue (not to mention being able to pull off Aspir on occasion).

So here's the question...am I doing it wrong? Do most people focus on using the Stratagem from the menu and not fully integrated into their macros due to the wait latency? Do most people ignore sublimation when a rdm is around?

Like I said, am I just not getting it or just plain old doing it wrong?

Edited, Feb 26th 2010 4:27pm by Unholyllama
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#2 Feb 26 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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You are doing it wrong. /SCH is the best subjob in the game for WHM.

I wouldn't put the JAs right in the macros like that, to be honest. The /waits are creating unnecessary delay. Same reason that most THFs have three macros for SA, TA, and WS.

Sublimation might not be so hot when you always have a RDM, but in a lowman situation, you might not have a RDM. Besides, sublimation is really just the icing on the /SCH cake.

The actual cake, of course, is Light Arts. 10% MP efficiency and 10% Fast Cast alone beat the hell out of every other subjob. Then there's the 26 points of Enhancing Magic and 31 points of Enfeebling Magic, completely free, just for having Light Arts up.

As for Dark Arts, it allows you to do more than pull off the "occasional Aspir". With just a Pluto's Staff and some dark magic skill gear, I can regularly Aspir mobs for 80-100. I can Aspir quite a few NMs for 40-60. That's free MP, once a minute, with no downside.

What I'm basically saying is, /SCH is the best thing since sliced bread. There is no subjob that even approaches its utility or raw power.
#3 Feb 26 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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I think you're doing it wrong in the aspect of trying to integrate the ja's within spell macros. I'm pretty minimalistic with my macros and only macro whats really needed/I use, so I have room to do this whereas other people may not, but here's a small sample of what my whm macros look like

CTRL: c5 c4 c3 # # # # # # #
ALT-: JA JA # # # # # # # #


Cure V is ctrl 1, IV is ctrl2, cure 3 is ctrl 3, Alt 1 is penury, alt 2 is celerity. If I want to drop a penury cure V, alt1->ctrl1 isn't a big stretch, but it opens up easy penury access for R3/rr3/curaga IV, whatever. Same goes for celerity, it opens celerity for haste/SS/repose, without a lot of fumbling with /waits in macros. Maybe it's just me but I find quick use of ja -> spell with 2 macros is more seamless and quicker than 1 macro with /waits in it. /waits always felt clumsy to me.


As far as sublimation goes, I don't take refresh. I buffer a sublimation pre event, use it if I need it, and start it charging again after the cool down. A lot of the rdms I know only shoot me a refresh if they see me recover MP from my sublim use, and I'm fine with that.

Edited, Feb 28th 2010 6:09pm by Logiks
#4 Feb 26 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you tell a RDM you are using Sublimation and don't want Refresh, you are unlikely to get an argument. Most RDMs will be quite happy to have one less thing to do. Even if you are taking Refresh, however, the MP savings of Light Arts is invaluable all by itself. And that's just the tip of the /SCH iceberg.

I agree with the advice to keep the strategems separate from your spell macros. I have Penury and Celerity in the same palette with my cure macros, and I use them as needed.
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#5 Feb 26 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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I have separate penury and celerity macros rather than macroing them in with the spells. I always try to use penury with cure v whenever I use one. I also have light arts with "/recast Penury" in it next to the strategems to see how long is left on each. Also, penury Curaga's are extremely nice.

Celerity I use if I need to raise multiple people for Raise 3, or for repose if there are multiple mobs to be slept. I try not to waste it on things like faster haste cycle or stoneskin because a penury cure would probably be better.

And as far as dark arts go, drain and aspir are very fun to use. I aspir up to ~147 as whm/sch in dynamis off mobs with mp. It's not usually that high but it's usually 80+ which is pretty damn nice. I also use it at the end of a colibri's life in merits... There are many situations where its useful, and helps keep your mp up. Also if your hp is low from sublimation or AoE you can drain it back =)

But anyways... here are some random numbers to throw at you comparing /sch to /smn:

Let's say as whm/sch you use a Cure V with penury, and it goes off for 68 mp (a savings of 67 mp, even more if conserve mp kicked in but let's keep that separate.)

You use two Cure III's for 42 mp each, 84 mp total (and a savings of 8 mp)

You use Haste on yourself, and three melee for a total of 144 mp (and a savings of 16 mp.)

You also throw up auspice for 44 mp (a savings of 4 mp)

So you've used a total of 68+84+144+44=340 mp

Conserve MP activation is supposed to be on average about 7% of mp spent saved, so that's 317 mp spend and a savings of 23 mp.

Total saved mp is 118 mp.

Now /smn autorefresh is 1/3 seconds for a total of 20 mp a minute. That savings in mp is going to take 5 minutes and 54 seconds of auto-refresh to equal with /smn. Chances are, you're going to be casting a lot more spells than that in 5 minutes and 54 seconds.



On top of that, if you don't have a red mage, sublimation alone beats /smn. If you don't then:

assuming say, 944 max hp (yay non taru) to equal the time of auto refresh, we have:

118 ticks of sublimation at 2mp/tick for a total of 236 mp. You maybe want to cast stoneskin for that, which /smn doesn't have to, so that's -27 total mp, or 209 mp.

So right there, /sch is 209 mp ahead of /smn (becuse the 118 from autorefresh simply matches the savings from light arts and penury)

If you add in aspirable targets and aspir once a minute with the dark arts ability timer, /smn is crushed even more.




So... long story short..

/SCH is kind of like rolling /blm and /smn into one, but making it /BLM+1 and /SMN+1 essentially. You can aspir better than /blm elemental seal aspir, and you also get conserve mp and penury. You get access to sublimation, which is more mp/tick than auto-refresh.


Oh, and for the record I was whm/smn all the time before /sch came out. When SCH got a buff and became an awesome subjob, I leveled it for subbing on whm, and haven't looked back. It really is that much better

Edited, Feb 26th 2010 11:37pm by Annalise
#6 Feb 27 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
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From what I've observed of good WHMs, not only do you want separate macros for Stratagems, but you also want to anticipate their usage.

They last for one minute each, so take advantage of that.

For example, if Haste on the tank or yourself is about to wear off while you have two charges, even if you don't think anything will come up for a few seconds, pop up Penury--if you do end up casting Haste as the next spell, you get a tidy little MP saving. If you end up casting Cure V because the monster got a hit or two in, all the better.

Check the number of charges you have and how long to next charge while healing for MP. If will have two by the time you stand up, start thinking what would be the first spell you'd want to cast and plan on a Stratagem to use if appropriate.

One thing I really like seeing WHMs do is using Celerity with Stoneskin or Reraise in the middle of intense fights; they spend less time casting those, and more time paying attention to the tanks/DDs or squeezing in another tick for /heal on.

When in a time crunch, great WHMs anticipates the problem and gets SS/RR up quickly without dropping the balls on cures. (After all, a mangled WHM lying on the ground is pretty useless, no?)

Celerity is also very nice for shortening Raise II/III timers, especially while weakened.

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#7 Feb 27 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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Don't bother using Celerity for anything other than doing mass Raises (and honestly, if you have a good enough Haste setup, you don't even really need to use it for that unless you're weakened, because your recasts will already be nearly floored). MAYBE Stoneskin if you are in a real pickle, and Teleports if you want, just because.

I don't even bother macroing Celerity; Penury is what's used the vast majority of the time. The few times I use Celerity, I don't mind invoking it from the menu.

Whore Penury as much as possible. That's just one of /SCH's big perks and just one of its many methods of MP conservation.

Edited, Feb 27th 2010 10:03am by Fynlar
#8 Feb 27 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Just a quick plug that I have made before, for CeleRaise:

Yes, if you love WHM, you may have enough Haste/FastCast to get 0:30 recast on Raise.
(like Fynlar said)

But it's still a long spell to cast, so it's really satisfying to fire an automated (macro'd) CeleRaise -- superfast!

Here's the <STPC> version:
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/recast "Celerity"
/target <stpc>
/ja "Celerity" <me>
/wait 1
/ma "Raise III" <lastst>
/s (Raise III) ››››››››› <lastst>
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

(easily transformed into a <T> version if you prefer^^)



Most other times will probably just be Penury, which is fine. It's also okay to sit on a charge (omg, I can't believe she said that, omg what a nub) if you're not hurting for MP. That way when you do need a CeleRaise, you know you'll have a charge for it!

The thing I love most about CeleRaise is picturing the other person feeling like he had RR up. Seriously! :D If your reflexes are good, that "Accept" window should pop up about as fast as RR does.

Delicious!
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#9 Feb 27 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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"Same reason that most THFs have three macros for SA, TA, and WS. "

actually thfs have separate macros because we need versatility, not because we are worried about delay.

SA+DE
SA+SB
TA+MS
SA solo
TA solo
etc.

Most thiefs have a sa/wait1+ta/(wait1+ws) macro that reduces delay actually.

As a rdm/sch, I tried putting LA/DArts celerity etc in the macros, it does screw up everything. One of rdm forte is landing a spell way ahead of the curve and /wait1's mess that up. I'm actually not a huge fan of /sch for this reason but for whm, yeah its the end-all support job.

#10 Feb 27 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As a rdm/sch, I tried putting LA/DArts celerity etc in the macros, it does screw up everything. One of rdm forte is landing a spell way ahead of the curve and /wait1's mess that up. I'm actually not a huge fan of /sch for this reason but for whm, yeah its the end-all support job.


Keybinding is your friend for SCH or /SCH. If that's not an option, I feel for you; there's no easy way to add all those /JA macros to the already crowded /MA macros.
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#11 Feb 28 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Logiks wrote:
[Cure] VI is ctrl2
I see you're getting your macros ready for the cap raises a bit early.

(Cure IV. :-D)
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#12 Feb 28 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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lol

ty
#13 Mar 01 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Using Celerity for raises is still a good idea, as it will get the timer ticking down that much sooner. You can also skip hasting yourself till the 3rd-4th raise.
#14 Mar 03 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
One thing I really like seeing WHMs do is using Celerity with Stoneskin or Reraise in the middle of intense fights; they spend less time casting those, and more time paying attention to the tanks/DDs or squeezing in another tick for /heal on.


Agreed. Take a look at what exactly is happening when you get failures at events that can be considered the WHM's fault. Occasionally it's due to MP depletion, but such situations really aren't all that often for me.

A major problem is when I get KO'd by AoE, or caught mid-cast when someone needs a Cure. Celerity-Stoneskin can help with both of these situations.
#15 Mar 05 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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I sometimes use celerity with Regen III because it has a relatively long cast time. Depends on what you're doing but it's nice for kite fights or when you need it on but fast so you can concentrate on other things.

Edited, Mar 5th 2010 4:08pm by eldelphia
#16Lonix, Posted: Mar 08 2010 at 6:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I can see many peoples comments although I wouldnt say SCH towers over other SJ's, it is a great help.
#17 Mar 08 2010 at 7:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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/SMN = 200 MP every 10 minutes.

You can EASILY get more than that with /SCH, even without touching Sublimation.

Quote:
There is something about SMN which no ones adding /radar although you may not think its important


It's not been added because it's not that important. It's not like we're playing a first person shooter, here.
#18 Mar 08 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Plus if you got RDM in your party thats a lot of refresh you get. Also very helpfull if your taking deaths, if in an endgame event something goes wrong and your having to RR quick and need your MP fast - Subli does not work at all well when your weakened.


I'm sorry, what?

For starters, Lights Arts and Conserve MP together will beat the hell out of Auto-Refresh. Refresh + /SCH is still better than Refresh + /SMN. This doesn't even consider Penury, Aspir, extra Fast Cast or Enhanced skills.

Second, you cited the worst possible example there. When weakened, /SCH shines even more over any other subjob could ever even dream of.
75MP Raises/Reraises, emergency cheap cures; or just really fast casting of mass Raise 3 (Celerity) are all examples of /SCH being useful while weak.
Not to mention that if you're dying; it means the RDM will probably be either dead as well, or too busy like to refresh you. Either way, /SMN is a horrible idea.



Edited, Mar 8th 2010 11:29pm by Drakonite
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#19 Mar 23 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
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I thought the SCH vs. SNN arguements were done years ago.

I actually still see a few people running around /smn once in a while.

The mana efficiency oF a scholar plus all the added spells and ablities.


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#20 Apr 06 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, it's pretty much all been said before, but I'll say it again.

Passive traits and abilities, specificly conserve mp and light arts, are good mp savings. Penury is something you pop before you throw out a cure V or a larger curaga, and leads to some huge gains in mp efficiency. Dark arts + aspir is something that's nice to have too, even though I don't use it that often outside of campaign or solo. I generally only use celerity when recovering after a wipe, since recast timers are the limiting factor there.

I'm very excited for the level cap raise because ascention + haste is going to be a big timesaver, and may allow me to sneak in a tick or 2 of healing mp that I would otherwise lose waiting on recast.

Anyway to break it down /sch is the marathon runner subjob for white mage since it covers up the greatest whm weakness: lack of native mp recovery or efficiency (excluding mystic boon, which is still newish).

It's so useful that I campaign /sch. Idle in misery + dark arts, and if I need to haste/auspice then switch over to light arts, and I have the option of solace + penury + cure V before going back into misery + dark arts. Only downside is that I have to keep my distance from the campaign Bosses, but I find that I can get awesome xp from healing/raising people during that portion of the fight anyway.

The only thing even close to dethroning /sch is the possibility of covert + refresh + fastcast /rdm that's comming up 82+, but there's a lot of details that have to be learned before that's known.

Edited, Apr 6th 2010 6:31pm by Ahrana
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#21 May 02 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Not sure if it was mentioned, but sublimation also keeps you awake if you happen to get slept by dream flower, sleepga, hypnosis, etc.

Oh, and yes, /SCH beats the pants off every other subjob out there for general use.

Basically every WHM should have the following subs:

/BLM for warp, escape and Elemental Seal repose for very special situations

/NIN for solo and some alliance fights where you expect to take some hate now and then and want to survive. I always go /NIN to odin with the PLD/RDM who straight tanks the valkyries, and I usually pull some hate that my shadows blink away.

/SCH for everything else.

(/SMN if you want to be laughed at)
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#22 May 02 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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/BLM for warp, escape and Elemental Seal reposeslow for very special situations


Ftfy. About the only spell that when Ele sealed may justify losing /SCH, if you´re that short on mages.

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#23 May 02 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually, if I'm using ES for anything (and subbing /BLM for anything), it's probably Sleepga.
#24 May 04 2010 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
/BLM for warp, escape and Elemental Seal REPOSE for very special situations

Ftfy. About the only spell that when Ele sealed may justify losing /SCH, if you´re that short on mages.


Nope. WHM/BLM ES Repose -> Tiamat upon pop, if needed.
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#25 May 04 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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I'm really curious about why would you need ES repose on Tiamat upon pop. If you don't have the manpower to hold it until the cavalry arrives, it's unlikely that the extra 1:30 minutes it buys you will improve your chances over /SCH >_>

Edit: Actually, my curiosity piqued now. Can Tiamat be Reposed without ES? I haven't tried, but I've slept Ouryu without ES before (And I think Vrtra can be slept without ES too).





Edited, May 5th 2010 12:51am by Drakonite
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#26 May 05 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
I'm really curious about why would you need ES repose on Tiamat upon pop. If you don't have the manpower to hold it until the cavalry arrives, it's unlikely that the extra 1:30 minutes it buys you will improve your chances over /SCH >_>

Edit: Actually, my curiosity piqued now. Can Tiamat be Reposed without ES? I haven't tried, but I've slept Ouryu without ES before (And I think Vrtra can be slept without ES too).


Never underestimate the lengths that a shell will go to in order to get/hold claim. An extra 1:30 can indeed make a difference, especially if it allows you to chain enough sleeps to restart your ES cycle.

And I was almost always BLM at Timmy instead of WHM, so I don't know about non-ES repose. But you can indeed stick a non-ES sleep as BLM... it's just not reliable.

I do have to agree that ES Slow is a more useful planned battle tactic. If you're not planning to hold a mob or get into a situation where you need to sleep a mob in order to prevent a wipe, that is. It's a pretty high cost to come /BLM instead of /SCH, but if the slow keeps your tank from getting clobbered, it can be worth it.
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#27 May 05 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I've never been in a situation where I have enough BLM's to chain sleep without also having someone to hold it, so idk.

The thing about repose tho is that it seems to have a very nice M.Accu bonus applied to it, on top of WHM's much better A- divine skill. I think I could probably get a decent landrate on wyrms, at least before they build resistance.
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#28 May 06 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Basically every WHM should have the following subs:

/BLM for warp, escape and Elemental Seal repose for very special situations

/NIN for solo and some alliance fights where you expect to take some hate now and then and want to survive. I always go /NIN to odin with the PLD/RDM who straight tanks the valkyries, and I usually pull some hate that my shadows blink away.

/SCH for everything else.

(/SMN if you want to be laughed at for carby pulls)
ftfy
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#29 May 06 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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I'll be honest, /SMN still have some niche uses. Golden Salvage and Zhay 4rth frog floor are good examples of it. But then again, losing your sub on both of this things wouldn't be something to worry.

I certainly wouldn't lose my sleep if I didn't have /SMN available tho.



Edited, May 6th 2010 4:32pm by Drakonite
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