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Sublimation vs refresh.Follow

#1 Dec 24 2009 at 10:38 PM Rating: Good
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This may have been brought up before, but I cant find it on the first three pages so...

Pretty much I want to know everyone's opinion. What would you rather have? Sublimation or refresh.

Lets compare the pros and cons of each.

Refresh

Pro - Refresh is always on. (For the duration of the spell at least.) And with it we gain mp constantly. The normal duration is 2:30. With this we gain 150 mp. Does not need to wear off before reapplying. Potentially can be up forever if the rdm can keep up.

Con - Refresh does absolutely nothing when we are at full mp. It can be dispelled. Does not stack with sublimation. Requires a rdm to be in the party with you.

Sublimation

Pro - Provides us with 200-300 mp every 5-7ish minutes. Can wake us up from sleep spell. Does not require another person, just sch subjob. Will still store mp into a charge even when we are at full mp.

Con - Is a waste if not used for the full amount of the charge. IE: Using a full charge that usually restores 250 mp when you only were down 100 mp. If hit by an aoe, your charge reads as full and you get a gimped return. Requires a wait time between uses. While not really a con cause its negated by stoneskin, it constantly drains your hp for no immediate return. A charging, or full charge can be dispelled causing no mp return. Does not stack with refresh.


Me personally I prefer refresh over sublimation. I mean it just makes more sense. A good rdm can keep refresh on you indefinitely, and do so without running out of mp. Granted there are some times I will use sublimation over refresh, but those times are more for a free poison pot than for the mp return.



Edit: Side note, I do not care about the times you only have a brd or cor. Obviously you would use sublimation at those times. I am ONLY talking about the times when you have a rdm in your party.

Edited, Dec 24th 2009 11:46pm by lightningcount
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#2 Dec 24 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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There's little reason to burden the RDM's list of duties and MP by wanting refresh when you can be just as functional with sublimation.

Furthermore, *I* control sublimation. RDMs can get busy and just forget to refresh you; there goes the relevance of saying sublim has a cool down.
#3lightningcount, Posted: Dec 24 2009 at 10:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Are you a taru?
#4 Dec 24 2009 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Sublimation no doubt. I don't like relying on others for things I can do myself.

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#5 Dec 24 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a Hume with full MP merits.
#6 Dec 25 2009 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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I like Sublimation for the sleep protection!

Sometimes it's difficult to use though, like when whoring Cura. There's places for each, really.
#7 Dec 25 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Default
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Whats the charge time for each race with average hp?

With 800ish hp on taru it takes about 5:00 - 5:15.
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#8 Dec 25 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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I prefer refresh, but like most things in this game, it's situational. It's more MP for me over time, and if I'm in the party there's little chance the RDM is starved for MP himself.

However, there's often times when I would rather use Sublimation. I charge it before entering a big fight, or if I know I'm going to be resting for longer than it takes to get full MP. If AoE sleep is an issue Sub can wake me. If I've been sitting at high MP for a long time, I'll start charging since I'm not taking advantage of refresh.

I almost always keep an open communication with the RDM so they don't waste MP on me or leave me hanging. Usually I send them a /tell and get a reply before we start so I can easily reply back to keep him updated with my Sublimation status.

lightningcount wrote:
Refresh

Con - It can be dispelled.
So can Sublimation.
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#9 Dec 25 2009 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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lightningcount wrote:
Whats the charge time for each race with average hp?

With 800ish hp on taru it takes about 5:00 - 5:15.
As a hume with no HP merits, it takes somewhere around 6:20 to charge in my normal idle gear. Longer if things aren't intense and I'm charging in max HP gear.
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#10 Dec 25 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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I preferred to use Sublimation for most events. It made the RDM's cycle a little shorter, and made me feel more like I was in control of my own MP recovery.
Anything to make my WHM more like my RDM is cool in my book.
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#11 Dec 25 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I swear Sublimation has a special tag on on it that reads "Dispel First". Every freaking time I'm fighting a mob that dispels, the one time that I'll be hit with it? It'll take sublimation. Even when I have two full rows of buffs.

Especially a fully charged one. It seems impossible to NOT dispel a fully charged sublimation first <_<

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#12 Dec 25 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I prefer Refresh, because it's over 50% stronger (counting 30s recast) and I'm free to take damage for whatever reason (esp. cura).

If the RDM isn't keeping it up, then I will just use Subli. :)

Quote:
Whats the charge time for each race with average hp?


0800 is about 5:00 + 0:30 ---- 815 base WHM/SCH Taru
0900 is about 5:37 + 0:30
1000 is about 6:15 + 0:30 ---- 1011 base WHM/SCH Hume & Mithra
1100 is about 6:52 + 0:30 ---- 1102 base WHM/SCH Elvaan
1200 is about 7:30 + 0:30 ---- 1223 base WHM/SCH Galka

or how I like to look at it:

0800 is about 200/5.500min = ~36.3636 mp/min (refresh is ~65.00% stronger)
0900 is about 225/6.125min = ~36.7346 mp/min (refresh is ~63.33% stronger)
1000 is about 250/6.750min = ~37.0370 mp/min (refresh is ~62.00% stronger)
1100 is about 275/7.375min = ~37.2881 mp/min (refresh is ~60.90% stronger)
1200 is about 300/8.000min = ~37.5000 mp/min (refresh is ~60.00% stronger)

The difference is your RDM is losing another 16mp/min (or equivalent of 0.8mp/tick) whereas with Subli there's no "MP cost" to it.

Still, Subli is roughly +37mp/min, and Refresh is roughly +44mp/min for the party, or about a 19% increase. At least that's how I look at it :)
(+60mp/min for the WHM, but -16mp/min for the RDM, is net +44mp/min)
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#13 Dec 25 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So can Sublimation.


Thats why I listed it in the sublimation con section...
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#14 Dec 25 2009 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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lightningcount wrote:
Thats why I listed it in the sublimation con section...
Ah. So you did. But if they both can be dispelled, how is either a 'con' compared to the other?
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#15 Dec 25 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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Unless your mp is full, or gets filled by something like an mp statue on dynamis, refresh wins.

But you have to have a decent enough RDM to keep refresh on you full time. Half the time I stick to sublimation after I go like 4 minutes at a time without refresh. A pretty good chunk of red mages do this.

So my general rule of thumb is:

If you have a rdm that doesn't suck, that has enough time to actually refresh you (ie they're not off kiting or something) then stick with refresh.

If you have a rdm that sucks that doesn't keep refresh on you, or one that is too busy doing other things, stick to sublimation.
#16 Dec 26 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Lol they were cons in and of themselves. Its not which one is better in pros and cons, its just what it is.

Quote:
So my general rule of thumb is:

If you have a rdm that doesn't suck, that has enough time to actually refresh you (ie they're not off kiting or something) then stick with refresh.

If you have a rdm that sucks that doesn't keep refresh on you, or one that is too busy doing other things, stick to sublimation.


I will never understand why lses use their main rdm in tank parties. Seriously, if your main rdm is going to be kiting, enfeebling, or cssing, then why in the **** would anyone ever make them the refresh for the main whm? Use your good rdm to do all the other stuff, and someone else to haste/refresh/support heal your tanks.

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 3:41pm by lightningcount
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#17 Dec 26 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Annalise wrote:
I stick to sublimation after I go like 4 minutes at a time without refresh.
You need to find some new RDMs to hang around with.
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#18 Dec 26 2009 at 4:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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I will never understand why lses use their main rdm in tank parties. Seriously, if your main rdm is going to be kiting, enfeebling, or cssing, then why in the **** would anyone ever make them the refresh for the main whm? Use your good rdm to do all the other stuff, and someone else to haste/refresh/support heal your tanks.



I agree in theory, but putting your crap rdms on duties like keeping the tank and the main whm refreshed isn't the best idea either and usually why I just prefer to rely on sublim and not depend on rdms.
#19 Dec 27 2009 at 12:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Logiks wrote:
I agree in theory, but putting your crap rdms on duties like keeping the tank and the main whm refreshed isn't the best idea either and usually why I just prefer to rely on sublim and not depend on rdms.


This.

Also, we tend to have our good RDM's do more important things. Tanking, keeping a party alive on their own (I'm like the only other WHM of the shell), or specific tasks like kiting adds. They're all part of our good RDM's regular routine. Just as being self-sufficient is part of our good WHM's routine.

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#20 Dec 27 2009 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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I WHM/SCH a lot in Salvage, and we also have a RDM in the party. I'll use refresh until I'm fully unlocked (sublimation is useless until you have HP, MP, Subjob, and Abilities.) After that, I'll stick to Subby until about halfway through the boss fight, when I'll ask for a refresh if I didn't pick up a Strange Juice from a chest.

For most other things, I prefer Sublimation because it's completely under my own control.
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#21 Dec 27 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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Lol they were cons in and of themselves. Its not which one is better in pros and cons, its just what it is.

I think maybe you don't quite understand how notions of "pro" and "con" work in comparisons.

But, the whole thing is really situational to the point of not even being worth talking about. Any time you're confident in having a constant Refresh and not worrying about being slept, Refresh will always win. Sublimation just gets increasingly better the farther you stray from that. So, there's no way to compare them in isolation, and the circumstances in between "Always have a RDM refreshing me reliably" and "I'm naked and alone and need more mp" are so varied as to make any concrete discussion pointless.

If you want to throw out a particularly tricky or interesting situation and then ask, "Refresh or Sublimation," then that might make for an interesting discussion. But, a flat, "Which do you prefer?" just isn't a useful question.
#22 Dec 27 2009 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think maybe you don't quite understand how notions of "pro" and "con" work in comparisons.


No I completely understand. I did not say "The advantages of one vs the other." Maybe in the title, but the pros and cons are simply a pro and con for each one when examined alone. If I wanted to list advantages/disadvantages is would be have been like, "Do not need another player for sublimation, whereas with refresh you are dependent on a rdm."

I agree, mostly, with what everyone is saying. Except I will usually switch between the two depending on the situation. IE, rdm not refreshing me, or taking his sweet time to do it, need free poison pot (although if I think I will be taking damage before being put to sleep I will just use a poison pot...).

Usually though, it really isnt a concern for me. I have not been in an event without a G horn bard in a while. I am just trying to figure out what everyone else's opinions are. Looks like most people use sublimation because they are tired of rdms not refreshing them... so they do it themselves XD.
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#23 Dec 28 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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I almost always prefer Refresh. Sublimation is a great backup for when there's no RDM, or they are super busy (which does happen), but unless I'm worried about getting slept I will almost always prefer Refresh. In a 30-minute event, the difference between Refresh & Sublimation is 540 MP, and that's without even calculating the loss from every 30 seconds you go without Sublimation.

However, I will sometimes buffer a huge Sublimation before an event, and tell my RDM "I'm buffing a Sublimation, don't bother Refreshing me until after I /tell you." Then as soon as my MP is low enough to use the Sublimation, I'll do so and ask for the RDM to start Refreshing me. Einherjar is the most common place for me to do that, because every bit of MP counts there.
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#24 Dec 28 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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If I have a RDM who I am confident will be able to keep Refresh on me at least 80-90% of the time, I'll take Refresh. Sadly, I find that is often not the case, and really I don't blame them because I know how busy they can be at times. So generally speaking I would prefer Refresh simply because it's more potent, but there are times when Sublimation has to suffice.

In events like Nyzul I actually prefer Sublimation for a few reasons. Mostly because you'll often be separated from the RDM anyways. Also, at times you can't avoid close combat fighting and as such the sleepga protection can be invaluable.

I'm actually surprised at how many people said they much prefer Sublimation.
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#25 Dec 30 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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It's not a question of prefer it's a question of numbers... which was more than adequately explained above. If I have the choice? Refresh every time because it's more efficient and more immediate. However, I do love my sublimation and use it extensively when partying with CORs and/or BRDs but that tends to be in meripo.

Refresh is better, Sublimation is a useful thing to abuse in certain situations. In some situations I agree, it's handy to be self reliant but anything serious, take the refresh.

Sublimation is easily upset if you for any reason take damage I think that annoys me more than anything. Yes, I often have stoneskin up and wear huge amounts of -ENM etc but still sometimes you take damage. On SCH, with Sublimation gear, I never take fresh from a RDM but on WHM? As often as poss. The nice thing is having the choice - there have been times where I've just told the RDM not to bother but never at anything important. Oh and never rely on it to keep you awake, however handy it is - sod's law says it'll fill up just as it's needed...

Edited, Dec 31st 2009 12:22am by eldelphia
#26 Jan 01 2010 at 4:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I can't even remember the last time I had a RDM in my party as WHM, come to think of it...

Quote:
Oh and never rely on it to keep you awake, however handy it is - sod's law says it'll fill up just as it's needed...


That's why you use it and start charging it up again before you anticipate fighting something where it's needed. >_> Granted, I don't always remember to do this and I'm betting other people don't either, but it's not really much different from remembering to use poison potions.

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 5:12am by Fynlar
#27 Jan 01 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't tend to have MP issues usually, I'm quite happy with sublimination, toss the RDM to another pt and give me the bard :)
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#28 Jan 01 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't tend to have MP issues usually, I'm quite happy with sublimination, toss the RDM to another pt and give me the bard :)

I think I know what you meant, but it seems like two separate thoughts kinda... 'cause RDM -> BRD gives you more MP >.>

3mp/tick -> ~5mp/tick

...but yes, for that reason, BRD+WHM is waaaay more efficient, makes me so happy^^

(plus you don't get as much overcuring/stepping on toes/killing my regens GRRRRRRR)
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#29 Jan 01 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Logiks wrote:
There's little reason to burden the RDM's list of duties and MP
It's really no trouble. Afterall, you'll be main healing, we'll just be tossing on debuffs and buffs most likely, and in an alliance fight there'll probably be more than one of us so we may not even be doing our full range of debuffs.

Edit: I think the correct answer to which one is "both". Use sublimation, but if you need a refresh, just ask. That's what I tell my PT whm if they're /sch. "You using sub or need refresh?" "sub" "k, just ask if you want a refresh".

Edited, Jan 2nd 2010 3:50am by Noodles
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#30 Jan 04 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ah. So you did. But if they both can be dispelled, how is either a 'con' compared to the other?


If refresh gets dispelled, you no longer gain refresh. If sublimation gets dispelled, you lose your entire charge.

It'd be like having all the MP the refresh spell had given you taken away, if refresh was dispelled at any point before it's duration ended.
#31 Jan 14 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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It all depends on how fiercely you're using your MP at the time. If you're never going to be capping out then Refresh wins easily simply because its 1MP/tick better. If you are being given time to rest or mobs to aspir (dynamis, campaign, einherjar) then Sublimation comes into it's own.

The making you unsleepable is nice but with elshimo pachira fruit...
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#32 Jan 27 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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For me its Sublimation all the way. I'm usually in a pt of DD either merit or endgame. If I'm in an endgame event I prefer a BRD or COR in DD pt that way I can use sublimation and still have another source of refresh. If I'm in the PLD pt and I have a RDM the RDM is free to basically ignore me, and concentrate on plds, except for the special circumstance where I had to use a charge before it was full due to damage and get a low return forcing me to rest then a cast of refresh is simply given.

I know refresh is better for mp over time but when I'm at 100mp and below all I do is hit sublimation and wham I get up to 250mp and keep going. If an RDM is smart they will see you use your charge and toss a refresh for that 30 second timer. I've gone through Omega without having to rest one time, but of course my limbus shell rocks when it comes to Omega. Ultima can be a different story sometimes. Plus I do use aspir whenever possible with Dark Arts and drk magic gear.

In fact I've had many RDM thank me for using sublimation. I've also had to train more than one RDM to the fact that sublimation and refresh didn't stack.

It's personal preference really. Play with both types of refresh and find out for yourself and make your own decision. If you come here to the forums to find out you will inevitably start a debate or someone will come in with their opinion and be a "I know it all and you know nothing" attitude when honestly all we can tell you is what we've experienced and prefer.

Edited, Jan 27th 2010 9:50pm by Shastal
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#33 Jan 29 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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One refresh is not that difficult to keep up for a rdm. If your rdms are not keeping refresh up on you, then you can tell them to pay more attention or you'll start using sublimation. I'd rather give my mages more MP, but maybe other rdms don't like being optimal.
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#34 Jan 29 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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As I stated earlier, Mnementh, Refresh isn't always necessary. If you're not using that 3mp/tick either due to having time to rest or having mobs to aspir, then you're better off with Sublimation. You can't store extra ticks of Refresh, they're just wasted.
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#35 Jan 30 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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It isn't necessary but it is more efficient. While refresh and sublimation are mutually exclusive, there is a communication factor here. It has been mentioned to let sub charge and once its done tell the rdm to refresh. If the rdm is busy, use sub. If you're in a party alone, use sub. If you're not at full MP though, refresh is always more efficient. That's just fact. There is no need for a rule that you should always use one over another just because it's more convenient for you or because you don't trust your rdm. Although I guess if your communication sucks, or your rdm sucks then sublimation may be preferred.
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#36 Jan 30 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
There is no need for a rule that you should always use one over another
I don't think anyone suggested that. However:
Quote:
It isn't necessary but it is more efficient.
But it isn't always. As I've said, twice now, if you're not running out of MP without refresh then adding refresh is trivial. You're just spending MP on nothing. In fact, the sublimation is better if you're capping off since you now have a reserve.

FFXI: ****'s situational.
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#37 Feb 01 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Default
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If you are going to take that stance, then any form of refresh at all is trivial. I mean **** it then. All WHM should sub WAR with no RDM and be hardcore!

Look, I think we're saying the same thing. But the bottom line is, if you are a whm and you are in my party, I am giving you refresh. If you buff sublimation, I will watch for when you activate it and I will give you refresh. It's 40 **** MP. If your MP bar is ANYWHERE between 0 and 100% MP, then you will be getting refresh, I don't give a ****. If you want to cancel my refresh and sublimation yourself, that's fine, But I am not letting my whm do something less efficient willingly.

Honestly, if you are spending so little MP that you don't need refresh, why are you even there whm at all? The whole argument is pointless. Refresh > Sublimation. Cap it at start, and then leave it to rdms once you actually have to, you know.... Cure.
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#38 Feb 01 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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It's 40 @#%^ing MP. If your MP bar is ANYWHERE between 0 and 100% MP, then you will be getting refresh, I don't give a @#%^. If you want to cancel my refresh and sublimation yourself, that's fine, But I am not letting my whm do something less efficient willingly.


If we're going to start to nitpick; refresh is only useful somewhere around 0% and 70% MP. If you're not below 250~ MP from your max and still have a charge up, it's better to wait until the MP lowers to actually use the charge without wasting excess MP.

Also, there's no need to start using insults over such trivial matters.

Quote:
Honestly, if you are spending so little MP that you don't need refresh, why are you even there whm at all?


This is why I rarely party up with a RDM to begin with. Basically this only happens in the tank party, and it's because either: A) The RDM is the tank, or B) The RDM is refreshing the tank.

Which this brings me to my origianl point: True efficiency would be achieved by re-organizing your party structure so that the RDM or WHM or accompanying BRD/COR would be put to better use; not by our choice of Refresh/Sublimation.

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#39 Feb 02 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:
Quote:
It's 40 @#%^ing MP. If your MP bar is ANYWHERE between 0 and 100% MP, then you will be getting refresh, I don't give a @#%^. If you want to cancel my refresh and sublimation yourself, that's fine, But I am not letting my whm do something less efficient willingly.


If we're going to start to nitpick; refresh is only useful somewhere around 0% and 70% MP. If you're not below 250~ MP from your max and still have a charge up, it's better to wait until the MP lowers to actually use the charge without wasting excess MP.

Also, there's no need to start using insults over such trivial matters.


If we're going to nitpick, refresh is 150 MP total. And once that charge is used up unless you use absolutely zero MP for the entire duration of sublimation until fully charged, you are wasting your time. It only takes a rdm a few seconds and a truly trivial amount of MP to cast refresh on you.

And if you look at my statement, I didn't use any insults at all. I am simply using profanity and stating fact. Sublimation is less efficient.

Quote:
This is why I rarely party up with a RDM to begin with. Basically this only happens in the tank party, and it's because either: A) The RDM is the tank, or B) The RDM is refreshing the tank.

Edit: and this is beside the point. If you don't have a rdm, then sublimation is obviously superior. I was under the impression that this was discussing when you have both options available.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 9:25am by LordMnementh

Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 9:26am by LordMnementh
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#40 Feb 02 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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If your party actually has both a WHM/SCH and RDM in it (although I can count the number of times I've seen that happen since SCH's release on one hand), it probably doesn't even **** matter which one the WHM uses.
#41 Feb 02 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've been able to make it through most Dynamis without a RDM supporting me. This is hasting my PT, throwing Reposes, enfeebling where appropriate, etc. It's not that I'm underachieving on WHM. It's that I'm overachieving and using Dark Arts and an Aspir set to keep my MP high.

On the other hand, there can be Xarcabards, Tavnazias, or DD heavy Cerb/Khims/Ixions where I have to heal a lot of people and then refresh is greatly appreciated.

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If you are going to take that stance, then any form of refresh at all is trivial. I mean @#%^ it then. All WHM should sub WAR with no RDM and be hardcore!
Because that's stupid. Stop throwing a tantrum.
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#42 Feb 02 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Quote:
If you are going to take that stance, then any form of refresh at all is trivial. I mean @#%^ it then. All WHM should sub WAR with no RDM and be hardcore!
Because that's stupid. Stop throwing a tantrum.


Its called being silly, obviously this is serious business!


Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 10:43am by LordMnementh
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lolgaxe wrote:
Lucinus wrote:
WARs do what they do best.

Provoke the foe and break it in half.
Coincidentally, that's how I met my wife.
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