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Sublimation vs refresh.Follow

#1 Dec 24 2009 at 10:38 PM Rating: Good
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This may have been brought up before, but I cant find it on the first three pages so...

Pretty much I want to know everyone's opinion. What would you rather have? Sublimation or refresh.

Lets compare the pros and cons of each.

Refresh

Pro - Refresh is always on. (For the duration of the spell at least.) And with it we gain mp constantly. The normal duration is 2:30. With this we gain 150 mp. Does not need to wear off before reapplying. Potentially can be up forever if the rdm can keep up.

Con - Refresh does absolutely nothing when we are at full mp. It can be dispelled. Does not stack with sublimation. Requires a rdm to be in the party with you.

Sublimation

Pro - Provides us with 200-300 mp every 5-7ish minutes. Can wake us up from sleep spell. Does not require another person, just sch subjob. Will still store mp into a charge even when we are at full mp.

Con - Is a waste if not used for the full amount of the charge. IE: Using a full charge that usually restores 250 mp when you only were down 100 mp. If hit by an aoe, your charge reads as full and you get a gimped return. Requires a wait time between uses. While not really a con cause its negated by stoneskin, it constantly drains your hp for no immediate return. A charging, or full charge can be dispelled causing no mp return. Does not stack with refresh.


Me personally I prefer refresh over sublimation. I mean it just makes more sense. A good rdm can keep refresh on you indefinitely, and do so without running out of mp. Granted there are some times I will use sublimation over refresh, but those times are more for a free poison pot than for the mp return.



Edit: Side note, I do not care about the times you only have a brd or cor. Obviously you would use sublimation at those times. I am ONLY talking about the times when you have a rdm in your party.

Edited, Dec 24th 2009 11:46pm by lightningcount
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#2 Dec 24 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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There's little reason to burden the RDM's list of duties and MP by wanting refresh when you can be just as functional with sublimation.

Furthermore, *I* control sublimation. RDMs can get busy and just forget to refresh you; there goes the relevance of saying sublim has a cool down.
#3lightningcount, Posted: Dec 24 2009 at 10:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Are you a taru?
#4 Dec 24 2009 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Sublimation no doubt. I don't like relying on others for things I can do myself.

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#5 Dec 24 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a Hume with full MP merits.
#6 Dec 25 2009 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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I like Sublimation for the sleep protection!

Sometimes it's difficult to use though, like when whoring Cura. There's places for each, really.
#7 Dec 25 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Default
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Whats the charge time for each race with average hp?

With 800ish hp on taru it takes about 5:00 - 5:15.
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#8 Dec 25 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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I prefer refresh, but like most things in this game, it's situational. It's more MP for me over time, and if I'm in the party there's little chance the RDM is starved for MP himself.

However, there's often times when I would rather use Sublimation. I charge it before entering a big fight, or if I know I'm going to be resting for longer than it takes to get full MP. If AoE sleep is an issue Sub can wake me. If I've been sitting at high MP for a long time, I'll start charging since I'm not taking advantage of refresh.

I almost always keep an open communication with the RDM so they don't waste MP on me or leave me hanging. Usually I send them a /tell and get a reply before we start so I can easily reply back to keep him updated with my Sublimation status.

lightningcount wrote:
Refresh

Con - It can be dispelled.
So can Sublimation.
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#9 Dec 25 2009 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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lightningcount wrote:
Whats the charge time for each race with average hp?

With 800ish hp on taru it takes about 5:00 - 5:15.
As a hume with no HP merits, it takes somewhere around 6:20 to charge in my normal idle gear. Longer if things aren't intense and I'm charging in max HP gear.
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#10 Dec 25 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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I preferred to use Sublimation for most events. It made the RDM's cycle a little shorter, and made me feel more like I was in control of my own MP recovery.
Anything to make my WHM more like my RDM is cool in my book.
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#11 Dec 25 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I swear Sublimation has a special tag on on it that reads "Dispel First". Every freaking time I'm fighting a mob that dispels, the one time that I'll be hit with it? It'll take sublimation. Even when I have two full rows of buffs.

Especially a fully charged one. It seems impossible to NOT dispel a fully charged sublimation first <_<

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#12 Dec 25 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I prefer Refresh, because it's over 50% stronger (counting 30s recast) and I'm free to take damage for whatever reason (esp. cura).

If the RDM isn't keeping it up, then I will just use Subli. :)

Quote:
Whats the charge time for each race with average hp?


0800 is about 5:00 + 0:30 ---- 815 base WHM/SCH Taru
0900 is about 5:37 + 0:30
1000 is about 6:15 + 0:30 ---- 1011 base WHM/SCH Hume & Mithra
1100 is about 6:52 + 0:30 ---- 1102 base WHM/SCH Elvaan
1200 is about 7:30 + 0:30 ---- 1223 base WHM/SCH Galka

or how I like to look at it:

0800 is about 200/5.500min = ~36.3636 mp/min (refresh is ~65.00% stronger)
0900 is about 225/6.125min = ~36.7346 mp/min (refresh is ~63.33% stronger)
1000 is about 250/6.750min = ~37.0370 mp/min (refresh is ~62.00% stronger)
1100 is about 275/7.375min = ~37.2881 mp/min (refresh is ~60.90% stronger)
1200 is about 300/8.000min = ~37.5000 mp/min (refresh is ~60.00% stronger)

The difference is your RDM is losing another 16mp/min (or equivalent of 0.8mp/tick) whereas with Subli there's no "MP cost" to it.

Still, Subli is roughly +37mp/min, and Refresh is roughly +44mp/min for the party, or about a 19% increase. At least that's how I look at it :)
(+60mp/min for the WHM, but -16mp/min for the RDM, is net +44mp/min)
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#13 Dec 25 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So can Sublimation.


Thats why I listed it in the sublimation con section...
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#14 Dec 25 2009 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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lightningcount wrote:
Thats why I listed it in the sublimation con section...
Ah. So you did. But if they both can be dispelled, how is either a 'con' compared to the other?
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#15 Dec 25 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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Unless your mp is full, or gets filled by something like an mp statue on dynamis, refresh wins.

But you have to have a decent enough RDM to keep refresh on you full time. Half the time I stick to sublimation after I go like 4 minutes at a time without refresh. A pretty good chunk of red mages do this.

So my general rule of thumb is:

If you have a rdm that doesn't suck, that has enough time to actually refresh you (ie they're not off kiting or something) then stick with refresh.

If you have a rdm that sucks that doesn't keep refresh on you, or one that is too busy doing other things, stick to sublimation.
#16 Dec 26 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Lol they were cons in and of themselves. Its not which one is better in pros and cons, its just what it is.

Quote:
So my general rule of thumb is:

If you have a rdm that doesn't suck, that has enough time to actually refresh you (ie they're not off kiting or something) then stick with refresh.

If you have a rdm that sucks that doesn't keep refresh on you, or one that is too busy doing other things, stick to sublimation.


I will never understand why lses use their main rdm in tank parties. Seriously, if your main rdm is going to be kiting, enfeebling, or cssing, then why in the **** would anyone ever make them the refresh for the main whm? Use your good rdm to do all the other stuff, and someone else to haste/refresh/support heal your tanks.

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 3:41pm by lightningcount
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#17 Dec 26 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Annalise wrote:
I stick to sublimation after I go like 4 minutes at a time without refresh.
You need to find some new RDMs to hang around with.
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#18 Dec 26 2009 at 4:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I will never understand why lses use their main rdm in tank parties. Seriously, if your main rdm is going to be kiting, enfeebling, or cssing, then why in the **** would anyone ever make them the refresh for the main whm? Use your good rdm to do all the other stuff, and someone else to haste/refresh/support heal your tanks.



I agree in theory, but putting your crap rdms on duties like keeping the tank and the main whm refreshed isn't the best idea either and usually why I just prefer to rely on sublim and not depend on rdms.
#19 Dec 27 2009 at 12:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Logiks wrote:
I agree in theory, but putting your crap rdms on duties like keeping the tank and the main whm refreshed isn't the best idea either and usually why I just prefer to rely on sublim and not depend on rdms.


This.

Also, we tend to have our good RDM's do more important things. Tanking, keeping a party alive on their own (I'm like the only other WHM of the shell), or specific tasks like kiting adds. They're all part of our good RDM's regular routine. Just as being self-sufficient is part of our good WHM's routine.

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#20 Dec 27 2009 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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I WHM/SCH a lot in Salvage, and we also have a RDM in the party. I'll use refresh until I'm fully unlocked (sublimation is useless until you have HP, MP, Subjob, and Abilities.) After that, I'll stick to Subby until about halfway through the boss fight, when I'll ask for a refresh if I didn't pick up a Strange Juice from a chest.

For most other things, I prefer Sublimation because it's completely under my own control.
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#21 Dec 27 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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Lol they were cons in and of themselves. Its not which one is better in pros and cons, its just what it is.

I think maybe you don't quite understand how notions of "pro" and "con" work in comparisons.

But, the whole thing is really situational to the point of not even being worth talking about. Any time you're confident in having a constant Refresh and not worrying about being slept, Refresh will always win. Sublimation just gets increasingly better the farther you stray from that. So, there's no way to compare them in isolation, and the circumstances in between "Always have a RDM refreshing me reliably" and "I'm naked and alone and need more mp" are so varied as to make any concrete discussion pointless.

If you want to throw out a particularly tricky or interesting situation and then ask, "Refresh or Sublimation," then that might make for an interesting discussion. But, a flat, "Which do you prefer?" just isn't a useful question.
#22 Dec 27 2009 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think maybe you don't quite understand how notions of "pro" and "con" work in comparisons.


No I completely understand. I did not say "The advantages of one vs the other." Maybe in the title, but the pros and cons are simply a pro and con for each one when examined alone. If I wanted to list advantages/disadvantages is would be have been like, "Do not need another player for sublimation, whereas with refresh you are dependent on a rdm."

I agree, mostly, with what everyone is saying. Except I will usually switch between the two depending on the situation. IE, rdm not refreshing me, or taking his sweet time to do it, need free poison pot (although if I think I will be taking damage before being put to sleep I will just use a poison pot...).

Usually though, it really isnt a concern for me. I have not been in an event without a G horn bard in a while. I am just trying to figure out what everyone else's opinions are. Looks like most people use sublimation because they are tired of rdms not refreshing them... so they do it themselves XD.
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#23 Dec 28 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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I almost always prefer Refresh. Sublimation is a great backup for when there's no RDM, or they are super busy (which does happen), but unless I'm worried about getting slept I will almost always prefer Refresh. In a 30-minute event, the difference between Refresh & Sublimation is 540 MP, and that's without even calculating the loss from every 30 seconds you go without Sublimation.

However, I will sometimes buffer a huge Sublimation before an event, and tell my RDM "I'm buffing a Sublimation, don't bother Refreshing me until after I /tell you." Then as soon as my MP is low enough to use the Sublimation, I'll do so and ask for the RDM to start Refreshing me. Einherjar is the most common place for me to do that, because every bit of MP counts there.
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#24 Dec 28 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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If I have a RDM who I am confident will be able to keep Refresh on me at least 80-90% of the time, I'll take Refresh. Sadly, I find that is often not the case, and really I don't blame them because I know how busy they can be at times. So generally speaking I would prefer Refresh simply because it's more potent, but there are times when Sublimation has to suffice.

In events like Nyzul I actually prefer Sublimation for a few reasons. Mostly because you'll often be separated from the RDM anyways. Also, at times you can't avoid close combat fighting and as such the sleepga protection can be invaluable.

I'm actually surprised at how many people said they much prefer Sublimation.
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#25 Dec 30 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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It's not a question of prefer it's a question of numbers... which was more than adequately explained above. If I have the choice? Refresh every time because it's more efficient and more immediate. However, I do love my sublimation and use it extensively when partying with CORs and/or BRDs but that tends to be in meripo.

Refresh is better, Sublimation is a useful thing to abuse in certain situations. In some situations I agree, it's handy to be self reliant but anything serious, take the refresh.

Sublimation is easily upset if you for any reason take damage I think that annoys me more than anything. Yes, I often have stoneskin up and wear huge amounts of -ENM etc but still sometimes you take damage. On SCH, with Sublimation gear, I never take fresh from a RDM but on WHM? As often as poss. The nice thing is having the choice - there have been times where I've just told the RDM not to bother but never at anything important. Oh and never rely on it to keep you awake, however handy it is - sod's law says it'll fill up just as it's needed...

Edited, Dec 31st 2009 12:22am by eldelphia
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#26 Jan 01 2010 at 4:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I can't even remember the last time I had a RDM in my party as WHM, come to think of it...

Quote:
Oh and never rely on it to keep you awake, however handy it is - sod's law says it'll fill up just as it's needed...


That's why you use it and start charging it up again before you anticipate fighting something where it's needed. >_> Granted, I don't always remember to do this and I'm betting other people don't either, but it's not really much different from remembering to use poison potions.

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 5:12am by Fynlar
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