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Shamtotto Expansion Gear - Augments now up!Follow

#1 Oct 29 2009 at 4:22 AM Rating: Good
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More Cure potency available... and movement speed!

[img=http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo149/eldelphia/FFXI/20091029ShantottoAugments.jpg]

HP+25, ENM +4 
MP-25, ENM -4 
Accuracy +7 
Attack +7 
Racc +7 
Ratt +7 
Eva +7 
MAB +4 
Macc+4 
Haste +3% 
Double Attack +2% 
Critical Hit Damage +3% 
Skillchain damage +5% 
Conserve TP +5 
Physical Damage Taken -4% 
Magical Critical Hit Damage +10% 
Magic Burst Damage +10% 
Kick Attacks +5 
Cure Potency +5% 
Sic and Ready Ability Delay -5 
Song Recast -3 
Barrage +1 
Elemental Siphon +20 
Phantom Roll ability delay -5 
Repair Potency +10% 
Waltz TP Cost -5 
Pet: Acc & Att +7 
Pet: Racc & Ratt +7 
Pet: Store TP+8, Subtle Blow +8 
Pet: Macc +7 
Movement Speed + 8% 
 


Base pants stats:

DEF:31 INT, MND, CHR +2


#2 Oct 29 2009 at 4:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Could be some decent WHM legs there. Macro them in with cure potency and -enmity. That way I don't have to look at how they don't match, and also don't lose the +haste from blessed for other spells.

I guess.
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#3 Oct 29 2009 at 5:40 AM Rating: Default
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Blessed and gaiters vs this... If you make this a Potency/Movement piece, you get worse curing pants than Blessed (no enmity reduction), and certainly worse movement speed gain than gaiters, but you save gil both ways. You can't really save inventory since you probably still would do haste cycles in blessed, so really you are just looking at a low-cost, weaker version of gaiters. Is that worth 10 bucks? I'm not so sure, since honestly I don't see me doing a heck of a lot on WHM with true 12% gaiters that I can't already do without... and these are not even that good. Are we supposed to be excited about these?

Just to clarify:
You aren't going to make these into better curing legs than blessed by any significant margin, and they will be strictly worse if you don't stack BOTH augments (meaning no movement bonus). How disappointing.
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#4 Oct 29 2009 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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NatePrawdzik wrote:
You aren't going to make these into better curing legs than blessed by any significant margin, and they will be strictly worse if you don't stack BOTH augments (meaning no movement bonus). How disappointing.


At first glance, these look far better than blessed for curing to me. By switching from blessed to Tatsumaki Sitagoromo, for stats relevant to cure potency, you lose 4 mnd and gain 5% potency. There's absolutely no comparison there in terms of cure potency. Blessed does next to nothing for cure 1-4 and only adds a few HP to cure 5, while these new pants are half a noble's tunic in the leg slot.

Combine it with another augment, MP+25 and enmity-4, and all you lose by switching from blessed is enmity-1 and 3% haste. I think getting 5% cure potency is more than worth that sacrifice. These look to be the new best cure pants in the game.

Edited, Oct 29th 2009 8:43am by Susanoh
#5 Oct 29 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Default
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50 more HP cured for every 1000 vs -1 enmity and the potential that you may have to wait 1 second more until the next cure... no thanks! I think that 5% potency is more exciting for epeen SS's in double-light weather on recently dead monks, than for actual in-game value. If you cure for less than 1000HP (which I normally do), then that 5% becomes even less exciting.

In other words, contrast the loss of 50HP (post-cure) to a potentially fatal 1 second delay (precure). Potency is even less important with our added Stoneskin effect, by the way, since our Cure V's have effectively picked up another 135HP protection on top of the natural HP we restore. In most situations, I think I'd rather take the haste and enmity reduction from blessed and let my tanks get some hate back by covering whatever my Cure V + Regen III doesn't.

Either the situation is crazy and you really need to spam cures, meaning blessed's reduced timer is superior, or the situation is pretty calm and your regen III will top them off anyway, with or without the 5% potency option.

If it didn't force you to take potency *or* enmity *or* haste (pick 2), then these would be a lot nicer.
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#6 Oct 29 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Why would you have to wait 1 second more until the next cure by switching out blessed? 3% haste should shave off less than 1/3 of the second from cure V (10 second recast). For every other cure, it'd be even less. For cure III, it'd shave off less than 1/5 of a second.

As for one enmity, maybe others have different experiences than I do (due to playing with different people, different events, etc.), but I very rarely pull hate off the tanks or damage dealers as it is. As for the few times I do, I'm not sure how often one enmity would have prevented it. The number of times 1 enmity prevents me from taking hate seems as if it'd be fairly low. On the other hand, adding cure potency would make my cures more potent, and more efficient, every single time.

Would/do you advocate swapping to goliard saio for cures? It's certainly a nice chunk of both haste and enmity- in one slot, but so far I've never come across a white mage who swaps it in over nobles for cures.

Edited, Oct 29th 2009 9:57am by Susanoh
#7 Oct 29 2009 at 8:02 AM Rating: Default
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Your points are good. I guess what I'm saying is that it's still pretty close to a side-grade for a 10dollar, X amount of time investment that precludes getting anything else.
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#8 Oct 29 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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This are absolutely amazing for those of us who will never own gaiters.

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#9 Oct 29 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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This are absolutely amazing for those of us who will never own gaiters.


This is what I'm struggling with. Even if the price comes down on gaiters, it'd have to hit half before I could think about em.

MP+25, ENM-4, Cure potency +5% are hands down the best curing piece but yes, you'd still have to carry Blessed.

If you have the gear to support it, is it completely ridiculous to take Cure Potency +5% and the movement speed on these? Losing MND, MP and -ENM?

I'm struggling with this because whilst WHM will always be my main the curing piece is good for RDM and SCH as well but the movement speed is good for all of my jobs except COR and would allow my BLM, RDM and SCH to do things they can't currently do and keep my WHM out of trouble in some situations.

I'm sitting on 30% cure potency already, 35% without Medicine ring and Healing feather is very attractive. I'm also sitting on a ton of -ENM gear and MP gear should I need it. Wondering if it's a ludicrous compromise to take the movement speed and the cure potency on the same legs.

#10 Oct 29 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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What's killing me is that this is also a good macro curing piece for other jobs besides WHM - I'm getting the 5% boost on the pants not just for WHM, but for RDM as well, which doesn't have the advantage of my Aristo's tunic. Combined with the MKE hat, it's 8% potency that's available to my other jobs. That's almost a noble's tunic.
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#11 Oct 29 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Default
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SE just doomed every WHM to look exactly the same forever by introducing the most broken gear available for WHM, and the most easily obtained. This is easier to get than a yigit set. It's just kind of pathetic. Now we're all witches with stupid dragon pants, and I mean all. Every low level AH WHM can get access to any of this quite easily. Why even go to any events? Just send SE a check. Nashira, Marduk, AF+1, Campaign Set, SE just sh*ts all over it. Don't bother doing anything but going to the AH and doing the stupid mini-expansions. Beats everything else by a large margin.

Now that we've established that events are largely useless, might as well just quit because this is just getting stupid.

Edited, Oct 29th 2009 2:44pm by JingWoo
#12 Oct 29 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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By all means, quit. Saves the rest of us from the whining.
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#13 Oct 29 2009 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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eldelphia wrote:
If you have the gear to support it, is it completely ridiculous to take Cure Potency +5% and the movement speed on these? Losing MND, MP and -ENM?


I've actually been thinking about this. When I switched from Mirror Tiara to Selenian Cap: I lost a large; noticeable chunk of -Enmity.
Both from the actual stat and the extra enmity generation of higher Cures.

This are probably going to be the same. Losing Blessed Pants is going to cost me another 5 Enmity; which is going to put me at around 15ish -Enmity. That, on top of even more Cure hate. Eeep

I guess I'm going to need to bust the calculator and check. I could probably start using Errant Cape instead of a MND one; and carry the Trooper's Ring? This is going to put me at -16 MND, -15MP, +5% Cure potency and 4 -Enmity from what I'm currently using.

The -16MND puts a huge dent on the +5% Cure potency stat already. It ends up being more around +3%ish for Cure V?
Still, it does add 4 more -Enmity that is very welcome; specially if I'm going to start busting out 530~HP Cure IV's <_<

So yeah, at least it seems I can work out my build to include the +5% Cure pot, +Movement speed legs. Going to love being able to simply despawn mobs on my way :3






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#14 Oct 29 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
SE just doomed every WHM to look exactly the same forever by introducing the most broken gear available for WHM, and the most easily obtained. This is easier to get than a yigit set. It's just kind of pathetic. Now we're all witches with stupid dragon pants, and I mean all. Every low level AH WHM can get access to any of this quite easily. Why even go to any events? Just send SE a check. Nashira, Marduk, AF+1, Campaign Set, SE just sh*ts all over it. Don't bother doing anything but going to the AH and doing the stupid mini-expansions. Beats everything else by a large margin.

Now that we've established that events are largely useless, might as well just quit because this is just getting stupid.


The funny thing is, if they replaced this gear with either something "useless" or nothing at all, there would instead be a post here bitching about how pointless the new missions are. SE can't win.

Also, if you haven't noticed, WHMs have all been looking the same for a very long time. Almost every 75 one I see is wearing Noble's or relic briault, Walmart, and Blessed, including my own.
#15 Oct 30 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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I'm doing Cure Potency +5% and Movement Speed +8%.
I just can't justify wasting an oppertunity for movement speed on something as common as MP and enmity reduction (which we already have tons of from Blessed gear).

Course, I have a Novia earring, and even without the enmity down from Blessed pants, I'll still have a -20 enmity reduction. I also caculated out that if I somehow ever got Marduk's feet and finally finish Healer's cap +1, I'll have cure V doing 875 HP, cure IV doing 500, and cure III doing 250.

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#16 Oct 31 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Default
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Everyone gets so pumped about the new max cure.

Cure IV +20 or so
Cure V +30 or so
Enmity Increase of +5 or so
Haste -3%/-4%

Movement speed +8%.

That's what you are looking at if you swap from blessed to this. It might be worth it. I'm not saying it's not. I am saying however, don't obsess about your max cures and believe the reason it's so high is going to be this. It will add approximately what I listed up there, and that's it - the other 480 or 880 (or whatever) is something you already have and not worth including in the discussion.

You'll probably have to spend money on a novia (either buying one or not selling one) and/or mahatma cape, and/or something similar to make up for the lost enmity you get by using these, and that may also cost you more mind in the respective slot. (Depends on what you are swapping out.)

Is this an upgrade? Perhaps, but more for the movement than anything.

EDIT:
Non WHM jobs who don't have blessed maybe get more from this than we do, but then again they don't have Cure V and enmity reduction on Cure IV is even more important, maybe moreso than 20ish more HP cured...

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 8:25pm by NatePrawdzik
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#17 Nov 01 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hmm... I'm thinking of adding Movement +8% and Phys. Damage -4%. The combination makes for a good <Run Away!> piece, plus useful for soloing on my BLM job too.

#18 Nov 01 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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There's something I miss.. you must forgive me but I'm still quite a noob..


Can't I just keep my blessed trousers on for Haste and macroing these pants with cures like the Cure Clogs, then switching back again to blessed? Windower macroes should not even be necessary for doing such a thing, the 6 lines should be enough.
Something like this:

/equip feet "Cure Clogs" 
/equip legs "Tatsumaki Sitagoromo" 
/ma "Cure III" <t> 
/wait 5 
/equip feet "Blessed Pumps" 
/equip legs "Blessed Trousers"


All you lose is -1 enmity, or -5 if you want movement speed (and since I'm a noob I can't figure why you could want it.. )

Where am I wrong? (°°')
#19 Nov 01 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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Haste doesn't help the start of the spell, only the /recast - that's checked at the end of the spell. I'll try to explain.

START SPELL
Fast Cast - If you have this on, the spell should go off sooner.
Cure Clog - If you have this on, the spell should go off sooner (matters only if it's a Cure).
Haste - If you have this on, it does nothing.
Light/Dark Arts - If you have this on, the spell goes off sooner/later based on if you use the right type of spell.

END SPELL
Fast Cast - If you have this on, the /recast timer should be shorter.
Cure Clog - If you have this on, it does nothing (doesn't matter if it's a Cure).
Haste - If you have this on, /recast timer should be shorter.
MND, Enmity Down, Conserve MP, Cure Potency, etc - Benefits like these kick in if you finish the spell with them on.

Casting time
When you start a spell, there is that little bar at the top that shows you are casting it. At some point, your spell goes off. If you have no Fast Cast or Cure Clogs or Cure Speed merits or Light/Dark arts, then that bar has to fill all the way to 100% before it goes off. If you have something that makes you cast faster, then the spell goes off before 100%. The faster you are, the sooner it goes off. Notice I didn't mention Haste because Haste doesn't make you cast faster.

The Casting Speed bonuses work on a tiered system. What that means is that if you make yourself faster, your spell fires off faster only if it breaks a certain speed threshold. For the purposes of WHM, all we need to care about are two tiers in specific:

1) Cure Clogs + Light Arts + Cure speed Merits x 2 = Highest Tier (/sch sub)
2) Cure Clogs + Cure speed Merits x 5 = Highest Tier (no /sch sub)

If you routinely go /sch, you can therefore put merely 2 merits into Cure speed and not 5, freeing up 3 more to optimize other aspects of your job.

/recast timer
When you open your menu and see your spell greyed out because it's not ready to cast again, you are waiting on your /recast. You want that delay to be very short so that your spell goes white as soon as possible so that it's ready again. This is what Haste affects. Fast Cast also affects this because Fast cast affects everything. Cure Clogs don't affect this.

Since Cure Clogs affect the start of the spell, and Haste affects the end of the spell, you should start Cures with clogs on, and finish them with Haste (blessed) on (also, the -enmity and MND benefits).

Additional Stats
Stats like MND, -enmity, Conserve MP, Cure Potency, etc, all check at the END of the spell, not the start. Finish casting with these stats on when you can. As a result, you should start casting buffs in Rostrum Pumps, and finish casting in Blessed. The reason we don't finish the cast in Rostrum Pumps, even though it has Fast Cast (and that helps at the start and the end), is that Blessed's Haste is also going to help at the end, and in addition to that Haste, Blessed has -enmity, giving you a double-bonus.

EDIT: To the poster above, if you use the new pants for Cure Potency and movement speed, for example, then you have to choose between:
End spell in +Potency
End spell in Blessed (Haste, MND, -enmity)
You see now why it's problematic. You can't end the spell with 2 pairs of pants on.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 5:48pm by NatePrawdzik
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#20 Nov 01 2009 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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I thought it was eventually determined that there wasn't a cap on cure casting timer and it was only the animation that was capped and also that the cap (if there is one) was different for curagas..?

I'm happy to be proven wrong, I remember the testing on cure casting time happening and then it being refuted. If it's been re-examined I'd love to know where...


#21 Nov 01 2009 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm... going with my last known information. I will research where I got this so that perhaps we can figure out what the real deal is. (Doing LS events now so won't be able to reply for a bit.)
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#22 Nov 01 2009 at 9:14 PM Rating: Good
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It is now possible to test if there is a cap past 50% for Cure casting now; thanks to the Capricornian Robe (Which is actually a waist...). It gives an additional -15% Cure casting during campaign.

Anyone wants to volunteer to test it out? <_<
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#23 Nov 02 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
It is now possible to test if there is a cap past 50% for Cure casting now; thanks to the Capricornian Robe (Which is actually a waist...). It gives an additional -15% Cure casting during campaign.

Anyone wants to volunteer to test it out? <_<

I suppose I can go pick one up and try tonight. I'll post results.
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#24 Nov 02 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seems people are chewing out the idea of +5% Cure Potency and +8% movement speed for two main reasons, loss of Haste and -Enmity from Blessed pants.

I can't honestly relate to the big issue with either, allow me to explain:

Haste will do nearly nothing for Cure's Recast (on account of it already being very low), and if your using Haste to lower recast timers of other spells (as well you should) just macro it in like you should all other Haste gear (If your like me, I macro in stuff like the Haste staff, walmart turban, and blessed mitts because they offer less than my regular curing gear) and use your regular gear for Cures (in addition to the lovely Cure clogs macro maneuver).

As for enmity, I've yet to really have any issues with stealing hate since pretty much before I hit 75. Tanks should beable to focus far more enmity on themselves than a WHM is ever likely to generate, provided their not stupid enough to spam Cure IV. Finally, if you do happen to take hate for whatever reason, 8% movement speed will help you a heck of alot more than -5 enmity.

If ya still find fault with 8% movement speed and rather go +25 MP and -4 enmity, tis all your business. But don't bring up Haste as a potencial augment because your too lazy to macro it in on spells you want to reduced recast times.

Also: Nexus Cape ftw

Edited for Style:

Quote:
Also, if you haven't noticed, WHMs have all been looking the same for a very long time. Almost every 75 one I see is wearing Noble's or relic briault, Walmart, and Blessed, including my own.


I wear my Healer's Cap (Gimp I know, still trying to get my item for the +1) And beyound all other justifications for the condom hat, yes beyond Mind +7, Enmity -1, HMP+1, MP + whatever, I wear it with pride cause it keeps my poor tarutaru ears nice and warm!

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 1:00pm by Teiei
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#25 Nov 02 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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What are you all even talking about? The real question is:

Hexa Strike acc+7 atk+7
-or-
TP haste+3 acc+7

Would be an easy choice of haste+acc if I didn't already have blessed+1

To argue your points:
movement+8% is a nice convenience, but doesn't really let you do anything that you can't do at normal movement speed (mainly a blm/rdm/sch point), as any mob with enhanced movement speed has more than 8%.

cure potency+5% is meh imo. Like people have shown above, it's not a huge boost, and if there's even a debate as to whether they're better overall than blessed, why waste the piece on that?

Might also be good to note I should have Gullintani within the month, so I have kinda different priorities.

PS - yes, lolwhmmelee. I like to smash things. :)
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#26 Nov 02 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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So, if I understood well, I can't do the above macro because Haste gear is uneffective on a spell's recast time every time it's equipped after the spell itself has already landed off, right?

So equipping cure potency legs and switching to Haste legs after -and not before- the casting bar disappeared would be pretty useless?

If so, I would still keep the blessed trousers just for spells like Erase and Haste, and macro the new pants with cures...

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 10:56pm by SIDDfromRagnarok
#27 Nov 02 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Daleven wrote:
Hexa Strike acc+7 atk+7
-or-
TP haste+3 acc+7

Haste/Acc! (because for hexa: Volunteer/Hydra are close/superior respectively^^)

I know it's sad to give up Blessed+1, but I'm in the same boat and I'm totally doing it! :D

--

If you're gear-capped (26%) and include spell (15%) then the overall loss is under 1% (about 0.8% or 0.9% loss) due to 25%->26% only giving you a remaining fraction (~0.6% or so).

But even if you're not capped, losing a full 1% haste is between 1.5% and 2.5% loss (depending on whether or not you have 2xMarch from BRD).

--

However, assuming your ACC isn't capped (common for us WHMs), the ACC+7 will give you a minimum of 3.8% gain (@91.5% hitrate), and up to more like 4.3% gain if you're @80% hitrate now.

--

So overall, it's definitely gonna outperform Blessed+1.

But you prolly knew that.

But still nice to know.

Plus they're purdy. :)
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#28 Nov 05 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
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GRRRR I am on the ropes as to what to do...

I have 75 smn and the smn ones are good, but cure potency +5... My epeen just jumped up a bit. Any 75 smns and 75 whms who have both and love both going through the same things?
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#29 Nov 06 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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Out of idle curiousity I'm interested to know whether there's a cap on cure potency... What's the max we can sit at right now?

Templar Mace + Askepios = 15%
Aristocrats Coat= 12%
Roundel Earring = 5%
Selenian Cap = 3%

That alone = 35%

Then...

Healing Feather (10% - active while HP ≤ 75% and TP ≤ 100%)
Medicine Ring (15% for 3 mins)
Lambda Sash (Salvage 3% Cure potency)

Anyone got a Healing feather and ever tested this? I have a med ring which could take me to 45% and the sash which would = 48% in Salvage...

I might go and try and grab the feather - with that and a ring it becomes easy to test. Anyone messed around with this?

Edited, Nov 6th 2009 10:48am by eldelphia
#30 Nov 06 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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If I were to make a GUESS I would say about 50ish percent. (Obvious emphasis on the word guess) That is IF it is capped.

We already get capped at 50% on other things. IE spell interruption rate. And I think damage taken down, but I may be mistaken on that one.
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#31 Nov 06 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
We already get capped at 50% on other things. IE spell interruption rate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=513tckqNkVU
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#32 Nov 07 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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As far as I know, the only things with a proven 50% cap are:

Anything involing recasts (Haste/FastCast)
Actual Max casting time from Fast Cast alone
Subtle Blow
-Damage taken


Cure Castinng time falls in line with Song Spellcasting time; which does not have a currently known cap either.
It is also possible to exceed the 50% casting time with things like /SCH stratagems, Nightangle, etc.


Spell interupt caps at 102%



As for Cure Potency; I highly doubt there's a 50% cap. Mostly beause those caps are reserved for things that substact something (Increasing Returns).

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#33 Nov 07 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Hence the key word guess. I was wrong on spell interruption. But yeah if I were to guess, it would be 50% or none at all. Currently the highest we can get would be...

Aristo 12%
Templar Mace - 10%
light/apolo/healing/dryad staff - 10%
Asklepios - 5%
Roundel Earring - 5%
MKD hat - 3%

Constant = 35%

Situational %ages

Medicine Ring - 10%

Healing Feather - 15%

Korin Obi (light day/weather waist.) 10-35%


95% is the highest we can get (currently) if you are a /nin whm in temenos with double light weather and light day. That is if it doesnt cap at 50%. I Do not know what the cap is, if there even is one. I said my Guess would be 50%. So again, it is just a guess.

Lets do a little fun math here for a sec though. Lets say you decided to do a full epeen cure potency setup.

75 elvaan whm with 5 mnd merits. 73 base mnd, no sub.

MKD Hat - 6 mnd 3 potency. (guesseing 6 mnd and 3 potency)
Templar Mace + asklepios - 15% 5mnd
Ajari bead necklace - 6 mnd
Communion Earring - 2 mnd
Roundel Earring - 5%
Tamas or other 5 mnd ring - 5 mnd
Medicine Ring - 10%
Healing Feather - 15%
Aristo Coat. - 12 potency.
Blessed+1 Hands - 8 mnd
Blessed+1 Legs - 7 mnd
Marduke Feet - 10 mnd
Korin Obi - 35% (double light weather+day)
Ixion Cape - 5 mnd


127 Mnd
95% cure potency
65 vit (guessing this number im a taru)


Using furens cure calculator, this would make our cure 3s do 429 and our 5s do 1506. And if you wanted to tank, could do an 856 cure 4...

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#34 Nov 07 2009 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, I can't help it, I love cures too much ._.

Okay:

Elvaan WHM/RDM with 5/5 mnd = 82 mnd
8/8 healing merits (and AF+1) = 307 skill

Templar / Dweomer / X / Feather
MKD / Ajari / Mamool / Roundel
Aristo / AF+1 / Aqua / Medicine
Ixion / Cleric / Bless+1 / Marduk

=142 mnd, 65vit, 307skill, +61% curepot

c1,2,3,4,5=
56, 156, 323, 653, 1143


Now add light day/weather (it's handled separate from curepot)

c1,2,3,4,5=
75, 210, 436, 881, 1543


Now add MND potion, etudes, food, and ...fenrir? (am I forgetting something?)

we'll say: +75mnd (should be possible/reasonable from all that)
for a total MND of 217:

c1,2,3,4,5=
79, 217, 453, 919, 1626


...and lastly, divine seal:

c1=158
c2=434
c3=906
c4=1838
c5=3252






... omigawd.... /curegasm
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#35 Nov 08 2009 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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Curaga 4...


And then you would have a very dead whm XD.
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#36 Nov 08 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Rya, WHM/SMN will give you 1 more MND when compared to WHM/RDM.

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#37 Nov 08 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Weird ... thanks!

c1=158 (no change)
c2=434 (no change)
c3=906 (no change)
c4=1840 (+2)
c5=3258 (+6)


But that's okay, 'cause I didn't get specific with the potion+BRD+SMN etc, so it's prolly off my +/-15 or something anyway :P

Curaga IV hitting all six (and if it was possible for all to have room):

....... 19,548
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#38 Nov 29 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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So, which pants did you go for? I need the final fight still...
#39 Nov 30 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Elvaan WHM/RDM with 5/5 mnd = 82 mnd
8/8 healing merits (and AF+1) = 307 skill

Templar / Dweomer / X / Feather


Um, Rya, darling, how're you dual wielding on /rdm?

Not that it really matters, because the difference between /nin and /rdm isn't going to be massive enough to destroy that 3500 Cure V (or 21000 Curaga IV)...

21000 hp cured. Would that put enmity on the entire zone, you think?
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#40 Nov 30 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
As far as I know, the only things with a proven 50% cap are:

[...]

Actual Max casting time from Fast Cast alone


I'm curious how this has been proven? I have 42% Fast Cast on my RDM (20% Job Trait, 10% Chapeau, 10% Tabard, 2% Loquacious), and the only way I know of to get more Fast Cast is in Campaign with Malagigi's Trousers (an additional 10% for a total for 52% total).

Basically, how was the difference between the -52% cast time expected value and the supposed -50% observed value confirmed? It seems it would be difficult and unreliable to eyeball something like this.

Or am I thinking about this all the wrong way?
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#41 Nov 30 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, I'm not so sure now. I figured SCH Stratagems or /SCH 10% Arts where a good indicator about it; but they are a different entity from Fast cast it seems.

The only other place I know where people could have seen more than 50% fast cast before those pants is in Azure Experiments. It quite probably capped or near capped you when you got the Opo-Opo tissue.

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#42 Nov 30 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Celerity is not proof, but it's a pretty good indicator. When you use Celerity, it throws all other cast time reduction factors out the window and simply gives you 50% fast cast. With Celerity active, no other fast cast will further reduce your cast time below 50%. I suppose it's possible that Celerity is specifically programmed to do that, rather than this being a result of a general 50% fast cast cap... but why would they do this? Again it's not proof positive... but in my mind it's a very strong indicator.

Also just to add another thing to the list of 50% caps, enmity down.

However, I concur that there's no reason to believe there is a cap on cure potency, since it yields a linear increase. Most things that have hard caps have them because of increasing returns. Percent damage taken (PDT) is arguably not an increasing return, as it yields a linear decrease in damage, but it does yield increasing returns to your survivability. In other words, -10% PDT will make you survive 11% longer. -20% PDT will make you survive 25% longer, -30% PDT will make you survive 42% longer, etc.
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#43 Dec 01 2009 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
Celerity is not proof, but it's a pretty good indicator. When you use Celerity, it throws all other cast time reduction factors out the window and simply gives you 50% fast cast. With Celerity active, no other fast cast will further reduce your cast time below 50%. I suppose it's possible that Celerity is specifically programmed to do that, rather than this being a result of a general 50% fast cast cap... but why would they do this? Again it's not proof positive... but in my mind it's a very strong indicator.


Considering that with Argute Loafers reduce casting time by 60% under Celerity when Weather matches (beyond the usual 50% reduction) it's entirely possible Celerity is just programmed to be 50%. After all, Chainspell spells are much faster than Celerity spells, implying that Celerity doesn't put you at any kind of cap.

On top of that, Celerity isn't 50% Fast Cast, because then the recast of a Celerity spell would be 75% of its normal recast instead of 50% (which is what is observed).

I hope this doesn't come off as hostile, I'm genuinely interested in where this discussion is going.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 2:14am by Aliekber
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#44 Dec 01 2009 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Um, Rya, darling, how're you dual wielding on /rdm?

same way I do on /SMN: 2nd belt slot >.>

my favorite part was when I switched from /SMN to /RDM without noticing XD



edit: regarding curecast, I agree that we probably don't have enough evidence to support 50% maximum fastcast. It's really hard to measure, may be best using multiple casts of long spells, like on /SAM (Hasso+Teleport or RR ... but only if Hasso is multiplicative I guess?)

If nobody has tested the next time I'm around then I will gladly do some tests :)

note: remember, sarashi only gives Dual Wield to jobs that don't have it, if you equip it in your second waist slot ;)

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 7:00am by RyaWHM
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#45 Dec 01 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Aliekber wrote:
Considering that with Argute Loafers reduce casting time by 60% under Celerity when Weather matches (beyond the usual 50% reduction) it's entirely possible Celerity is just programmed to be 50%.

Hmm I didn't know about that, that's very interesting. Also Chainspell totally breaks the rules so I wouldn't use it as any sort of evidence hehe. I'm still not convinced Celerity breaks the rules, though. I suspect Argute Loafers are the only way to get it over 50%. As for the recast also being 50%, that's easy enough to address, they just make it grant 100% fast cast. If the cap is 50%, that'll give you 50% cast & 50% recast reduction.

So ultimately, I guess that weaves a pretty tangled web. Short version: We don't have a clue.
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#46 Dec 01 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
So ultimately, I guess that weaves a pretty tangled web. Short version: We don't have a clue.


This is what I thought to begin with, but was hopeful that maybe I was wrong and someone had actually tested and proved a 50% cap/that there was no cap. Unfortunately, SE hates to release Fast Cast in non-head/non-body slots that RDM can equip, so we may never know whether a cap for Fast Cast specifically exists or not (since other jobs don't have the native 20% Fast Cast head start RDM does).

However, if someone has full RDM Fast Cast gear, including Malagigi's Trousers and goes /SCH in a Campaign battle, we could test a long-casting spell (Reraise or Stoneskin probably) to see if there is a cast-time reduction cap (not necessarily Fast Cast since Arts gives -10% Casting Time and -10% Recast, which is not consistent with Fast Cast numbers, which would give -10%/-5%), since full Fast Cast gear + Light Arts should give -62% Cast Time. Or, possibly, -56% if Fast Cast and Arts stack the way Haste and Fast Cast do for recasts [i.e. CastTime = NormalCastTime * (1 - Arts%) * (1 - Fast Cast%)]. We might not be able to tell the difference between 62% and 56% definitively by eyeballing, but 62% and 50% (if there is a 50% cap without Argute Loafers) should be doable.

Edit: I would do it myself, but I don't have access to any Malagigi's Trousers. If anyone on Gilgamesh is willing to let me borrow some for the sake of testing, please let me know.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 1:17pm by Aliekber
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#47 Dec 01 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Disclaimer:
I didn't use any extreme testing like taking video and getting down to one frame. Even if I'm off by a few %'s, at least we can get a rough idea. I'm taking the base casting time from the bar as about 77%.

EDIT: forgot to mention, I tested each several times, so it should be close, hopefully +/-2%

Curaga IV on unmerited char:
Naked (0%+0%): fires around ~77% or slightly higher

+Add Light Arts (0%+10%): fires around ~70%

+Add Celerity (0%+50%): fires around ~40%

Curaga IV on my char: (full merits)
Naked (20%+0%): fires around ~65%

Rope(tags on)/Clogs/FullMerits (50%+0%): fires around ~40%

+Add Light Arts (50%+10%): fires around ~35%

+Add Celerity (50%+50%): fires around ~25%

Celerity naked (20%+50%): fires around ~30%

Celerity + clogs (35%+50%): fires around ~25%


It looks to me like they might be calculated separately (77*0.5*0.5), but there could also be a cap at 1/3 of the original time. Or I'm thinking about it all wrong. I dunno really. I'm happier providing results than I am providing conclusions, maybe you guys can help with that! :D

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Edited, Dec 1st 2009 4:25pm by RyaWHM
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#48 Dec 01 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure. It looks more like they are additive with a -75% Cast Time cap to me. The Rope + Clogs + Merits + Celerity being identical to Clogs + Merits + Celerity (a 15% difference) seems pretty telling.

I suppose I can run the test with 22% Fast Cast + Celerity (50%), which if they are added should fire around 28%, but if they are multiplied, should fire around 39%. This should be distinguishable enough to tell if they add or multiply.

If they are indeed added, then I'll run the test again with 42% Fast Cast + Celerity, and either it will fire at 8% (assuming they add and there is no cap), or 25% (if there is a cap).

Of course it is totally conceivable that Cure Casting Time could stack by adding with Arts, while Fast Cast could stack by multiplication/not at all. They are two different stats, after all.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 2:52pm by Aliekber
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#49 Dec 01 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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Not to break up an interesting Fast Cast discussion, but I'd like to see if anyone who got Movement Speed+ thinks it's worth losing out on MP+ and ENM-4 or Cure Potency+5%. I just lost Enm-4 going from Goliard to MKE hat and it'd be tough losing another 4 to get CP+ and MS+ on these pants.

On the one hand, Whm is the job I run around on for quests and stuff, so +8% is nice for that, but will it really help on things like kited bosses? On the other hand, WHMs pay 4 mil for that kind of Cure Potency on an earring. I'm probably looking at either MP+ ENM-4 Movement speed pants, or MP+ Enm- Cure Pot pants.
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#50 Dec 01 2009 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Not to break up an interesting Fast Cast discussion, but I'd like to see if anyone who got Movement Speed+ thinks it's worth losing out on MP+ and ENM-4 or Cure Potency+5%. I just lost Enm-4 going from Goliard to MKE hat and it'd be tough losing another 4 to get CP+ and MS+ on these pants.


My experience: never really cared about enmity on WHM. I whore the crap out of Cure 5 in serious fights, which rarely pulls hate. YMMV

If playing a healing role, I'm far, far more likely to rip hate on RDM (and when I finish it, SCH).


Quote:
On the other hand, WHMs pay 4 mil for that kind of Cure Potency on an earring.


Price is primarily determined by rarity, not necessarily how effective it is.

Just look at things like Thief's Knife, Peacock Charm, etc. etc. all sorts of other things that have tanked in the past years due to SE making much more consistent sources and methods of obtaining them. Nothing about these items themselves was changed; just their availability.
#51 Dec 02 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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Celerity is in a League of its own.

Its, as far as i know, the only Controlable Spell Speed Cut available. Fastcast works on every cast, but celerity you have to trigger.

The description does not say fastcast, it says it cuts the cast and recasts down by half.

However when you trigger Celerity the MAX cast speed cut you can get on Non Main Sch is 50%.

Just like with Penury, the Max you can achieve with this is 50% cut in Mp cost.

However, you can definatly count the Light arts/Dark Arts 10% cost/cast time cut. However like these ablilties, it may be seperate from actual Fastcast and the fastcast cap.

And like someone said about celerity being different, Chainspell is also different, its Technically Not 100% fastcast, as Recasts are nothing also, So Technically its 200% fastcast.
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