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Help me build a tanking setup :DFollow

#1 Oct 09 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah you read that right! Having completed Yagrush, I can't help but entertain the thought of tanking on WHM. I'm not taking it terribly seriously, but I would like to explore the idea for kicks. The enmity-generating potential of Yagrush is off the charts, far greater than anything else in the game. Poisona costs 8 MP, 1 sec cast time, 3 sec recast if your haste is over 20%, and if it hits 6 people will generate the same VE (volatile enmity) as a Provoke. I could potentially cap VE in less than 30 seconds. I should be able to cover CE (cumulative enmity) using Cures. So hate shouldn't be a problem, it's more staying alive that will be the problem.

That being said, I need your help building a good tanking equipment set. I don't know a lot about tanking, so I'll probably start out slow on something really easy like Jailer of Love. Then as I get more comfortable, I'd like to move toward more difficult fights. Proto-Omega is a great example, I think a WHM should be able to tank him just fine.

Here are my current thoughts. I'm thinking WHM/NIN is probably best, since WHM is so squishy. It'd be hard to blood tank. Capped VE will only go so far in longer fights, if I'm losing all my CE every time the mob attacks me. However, even so, I think Yagrush + Genbu's Shield is probably better than using dual wield.

Weapon/Sub out of the way... the rest I'm not really sure on. At first I figured I should just pile damage reduction gear and HP gear... but a friend once pointed out to me that WHM has access to a lot of spell interruption down stuff which would help with Utsusemi. So I decided to try to work some of that in as well. Here's what I'm currently looking at:

Head: Walahra Turban (Nashira Turban has Interruption-10% and Haste+2%, but also Enmity-4 so I think Walahra is better)

Neck: Peacock Charm (swap to Willpower Torque for -5% interruption on casting)

Ear1: Brutal Earring (swap to Magnetic Earring for -8% interruption on casting)
Ear2: Merman's Earring (Magic Dmg-2%)

Body: Reverend Mail (Mainly for the DEF/Acc/Eva... but I'm thinking maybe Goliard Saio would be better for the Haste even though it has Enmity-5? This is a tough call... may not know for sure until I try both. Might also be that Goliard is better to cast in, Rev better to melee in.)

Hands: Blessed Mitts +1 (For the haste)

Ring1: Patronus Ring (Phys Dmg-2%)
Ring2: Bomb Queen Ring (HP+75, gotta get HP somewhere)

Back: Cheviot Cape (Phys Dmg-5/10% based on day/night... I considered Gigant too but there aren't many ways for WHM to reduce damage taken... could also swap in Solitaire Cape on casting for -8% interruption)

Waist: Swift Belt (Went for the haste here... but there's also Druid's Rope which is interruption -10%... however I think Swift is probably better even for casting)

Legs: Blessed Trousers +1 (For the haste again)

Feet: Blessed Pumps (swap to Healer's Duckbills +1 for -25% interruption on casting)

This puts me hovering at around -15 enmity including merits, which shouldn't be hard to overcome. It gives me 21% haste while meleeing as well as 23 accuracy, hopefully enough to build a little TP for dropping the occasional Boon. It would also land me at about -20% physical damage in melee gear.

It also gives me 19% haste and nearly 50% interruption down (70% with Aquaveil) while casting spells, which should let me keep Utsusemi up most of the time even though I suck at Ichi.

I think it's getting pretty close, but anyone have any thoughts on my choice of equipment? I'm sure there are a few obscure pieces that I don't know about which would be useful, since most people tend not to be thinking of tanking when evaluating WHM gear. Willpower Torque was a great example of one I just stumbled onto while searching for interruption down gear, and it seems great for casting Utsu.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts :)
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#2 Oct 09 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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The -15 Enmity is going to kill you on keeping hate unless you're spamming poisona or something. Use a T-Taco in order to offset that even more.

Suppanomimi instead of of Merman's for TP.

Keep Rev mail but macro in Goliard for casting Utsu.

Keep the W.Turban for the Haste, Hp and MP. Defense is a broken stat in this game.



Edited, Oct 9th 2009 3:16pm by Multidude
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#3 Oct 09 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Multidude wrote:
The -15 Enmity is going to kill you on keeping hate unless you're spamming poisona or something. Use a T-Taco in order to offset that even more.

I will be spamming Poisona. Constantly.

Multidude wrote:
Suppanomimi instead of of Merman's for TP.

What for? Unless you think dual wielding would be a better option than Genbu's Shield? I see survival as the biggest issue, moreso than holding hate or keeping MP high.

Multidude wrote:
Defense is a broken stat in this game.

Sad but true :( Main reason I'm even considering Goliard fulltime. Then again, if I'm tanking anything remotely difficult, odds are the accuracy will help more than anything. So yeah I guess Rev Mail for melee & Goliard for spells is best. Thanks for the tips :) Anyone else? I just know there's going to be an item or two that I totally overlooked that will be awesome for this...
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#4 Oct 09 2009 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I say forget the +Acc gear if you're going to be tanking something like JoL to start off with as you'll be outside of melee range anyway.

For Magic Damage:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=114228

For Physical Damage:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=114232

For Casting:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=114233

1)Toreador's Cape is VERY dangerous- it increases the rate at which you TAKE Critical Hits- Either macro in and out very quickly or ignore it entirely.
2)Loq Earring could be replaced with another Eris+1.
3)If you don't have a Marduk Body, the Nashira Body is a good (and cheaper) alternative.
4)You could Idle in a Terra's Staff/Kebbie, buuuuuuut... meh. You worked for your Yagrush, so just wear that and save the 2 inventory spots- You're gonna need 'em.
5)Sturm's report is there just to fill the spot.

Most of the gear should be fairly easy for you to get since you do endgame- Only one that would be tricky would be the Marduk Body as its 16mil more that you would be spending on something that you would use just for fun, and trying to get the Nashira Pants could be hard considering a Rdm would kick a kitten through an electric fan for those...

The reacast on Poisona is so low in the first place, you shouldn't *need* too much haste, which is why Nashira gear is so awesome for this.

Best of luck!

EDIT: For food, I would say eat Pescatora for the HP/Def or Dorado Sushi for the Enmity deppending on the fight.

Edited, Oct 9th 2009 1:29pm by AquaOtaku
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#5 Oct 09 2009 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't bother with trying to DD and TP won't really be important to you so just use Terra's when idle. Macro in fast cast/haste for Utsusemi; Spell Interrupt is only useful if you can -cap- it.

Swap into Yagrush/enmity stuff for generating enmity and have some physical damage reduction gear on hand (I don't think WHM can wear Darksteel? Leaves a bit of a gap... Jelly Ring/Patronus Ring, Goliard Legs, Umbra Cape, Terra's Staff is a decent chunk of -PDT; probably some more I've forgotten too...) and I agree with the idea of using Tav Tacos; DEF does actually work to an extent. It's a stat that you only really notice if you don't have much of it, or you have too much of it though!
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#6 Oct 09 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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AquaOtaku wrote:
I say forget the +Acc gear if you're going to be tanking something like JoL to start off with as you'll be outside of melee range anyway.

Yeah JoL is a whole different ballgame, so I'm kind of assuming in this buildup that I'll be tanking a more traditional style melee mob.


Ooooo this is great stuff!! Items like Harmonia's Torque, Eris' Earring, Storm Manopolas, and Merman's Bangles are all exactly what I was looking for. Those items had totally evaded my attention until now, thanks! I'm sure I can work at least some of them into my setup. Probably the torque & earrings at least.

I notice you also had, for both physical & magic sets, lots of Nashira instead of Blessed. Why is that? Just to get rid of the enmity down while retaining a little haste?

I'm still thinking enmity will be the least of my problems. I should be able to keep VE capped regardless of what my enmity modifier is, so for the first 15-20 minute or so of the fight, hate should be solidly on me. Once folks start to accumulate hate levels over the 10,000 mark, VE alone won't be enough anymore so it'll become more essential for me to keep CE high as well. That will be the hard part... and enmity modifier may come into play there. I probably won't have enough MP to use Cures to keep my CE capped, unless I'm taking very little damage (taking damage lowers CE, and I'll probably be taking a lot). So it'll probably either be a game of avoiding enough damage that I can do all the self-curing needed, or taking damage, losing hate to secondary tank, getting MP back up, and Curing my CE back up to pull hate again and then repeat.

For that same reason, I think I'll skip Toreador's Cape.

AquaOtaku wrote:
trying to get the Nashira Pants could be hard considering a Rdm would kick a kitten through an electric fan for those...

ROFL I love the metaphor, and yeah I've been wanting those for a while but I don't know that I'll ever get them. Still too many RDM that need 'em.

AquaOtaku wrote:
The reacast on Poisona is so low in the first place, you shouldn't *need* too much haste, which is why Nashira gear is so awesome for this.

Aye, only need 6% haste from equipment (plus 15% from spell) to get Poisona recast down to 3 seconds from 5, which is about as low as you can get it. However, the tons of haste I'm stacking on is more for the benefit of Utsusemi to keep me alive and reduce my enmity loss through taking damage.
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#7 Oct 09 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Proto-Omega is a big girl, as far as tanking is concerned. Anyone with /NIN can tank him pretty effectively, and WHM has natural MDB to mitigate the annoying magic damage.

The problem you're going to run into is that WHM's magic damage options kind of suck. I'd look at something like this.

Kebbie/Whatever/Whatever/Whatever
Storm Turban/Whatever/Merman's/Merman's
Dalmatica or Shadow Coat/Whatever/Merman's/Merman's
Hexerei Cape (So rare.) or Gramary Cape/Lieutenant's Sash/Whatever/Mahant Sandals

The problem is, a lot of that gear is rare or expensive or insane to give to a WHM.

Your physical set will be easier, because at least all the gear you need is common.

The important thing, obviously, is to have different sets of gear. Don't try to make one set of gear to do everything with tanking, because, like every other tank, you will suck.

Cast Utsusemi and Flash in full haste gear, a little -ENM is fine for Flash, but try not to go crazy with it. Swap to your physical kit when you know you're going to be hit, because it WILL help, quite a bit. Swap to your magic kit when there's incoming magic damage, or you're idling with Utsusemi up. Of course, since you'll be tanking like a RDM/NIN, you won't have much idle time.

Oh, and, I'm fairly certain that Spell Interruption caps out at 50%, and that even if it's capped, you're almost certain to be interrupted anyway.
#8 Oct 09 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Your best course of action would be to tank a lot like a RDM would.


- Full -Damage taken for when shadows are down. Terra's staff here; not Genbu's. Make sure Medicine Earring is there as well.
- Full Magic Damage reduction for stuff like JoL and random enemies. Goliard Body set is better for this purpose than a mixed set.
- Full Haste/Fast cast for :Ni.
- A mixed -Damage Taken(Priority)/Haste/Fast Cast for :Ichi when Stoneskin is up.
- An (Optional) full -Interrupt set for :Ichi when Stoneskin is Down.
- Enmity where applicable for hate-spells.
- A good Stoneskin build. **** in as much -Damage taken and haste/Fast cast while still keeping a 350 SS (380 with gorget).


To be honest here; -Enmity will not be a deterring factor whatsoever. You'll be generating so much that not even -Enmity merits can affect you.

Now you also need to set up your spell order. You will clearly have absolutely no problem with VE whatsoever. CE is another story.

Your main tools for CE will be Repose, Flash, and Cures. If you fight anything that AoE's and allow you to Curaga; You'll be golden. If not; you'll have to slowly build your CE with Repose/Flash/Cure IV.

Here you can use Cure Cheats to generate CE as well. Since WHM's don't have a lot of HP; your cure cheat should consist mainly of +HP during the cure rather than -HP before the cure. This will sacrifice a bit of +Enmity available, but it is a lot safer.
You can also abuse the Medicine Ring for this purpose.

As for food; eat Defense food. People that say it has no effect are just repeating what they hear. Yes, defense is almost useless after a point; but WHM's will not be reaching that point on HNM's without some help anytime soon.
This is specially important because of how we work. If Stoneskin breaks; our ability to get the next shadows up becomes compromised. It's particularly annoying to get interrupted because a mob did 2 damage past your Stoneskin. So extending it's lifespan is crucial.



Also, remember that unlike RDM, you have a "Third Utsusemi" available for emergencies. Cure V with the regular WHM Casting stuff casts just as fast as a :Ni.
This will not only get you out of trouble instantly, but it'll give you a powerful Stoneskin while you get things under control again. Which reminds me that you should stay on Solace; not misery.
Cure V is fairly expensive while /NIN tho; so don't abuse it.


That's about all I can remember now.



Edit: brain fart; forgot something about /NIN <_<


Edited, Oct 9th 2009 4:39pm by Drakonite
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#9 Oct 09 2009 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:


I notice you also had, for both physical & magic sets, lots of Nashira instead of Blessed. Why is that? Just to get rid of the enmity down while retaining a little haste?


Yeah pretty much. The idea behind the Nashira is that those pieces don't mess with your enmity at all. I would rather have the assurance that I would be able to put my shadows back up at a slightly slower rate than worry about my enmity. Maybe once you hit the cap, swap into blessed?

I would skip the Tor. Cape too- takes too much work to get for a minimal boost at too high of a risk.

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#10 Oct 09 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Arkzein wrote:
The problem is, a lot of that gear is rare or expensive or insane to give to a WHM.

This continues to be my biggest impairment... some of those Storm items look great but I know I'll never see them. I made the mistake of trying for Ice Gauntlets while leveling DRK, and did Defuse the Threat assault probably 150+ times. Never saw the Ice Gauntlets, eventually gave up because I'd already leveled well past their usefulness. As a result, I don't plan to try for any rare assault drops ever again, with Divisor Ring being the one possible exception.

Arkzein wrote:
Oh, and, I'm fairly certain that Spell Interruption caps out at 50%, and that even if it's capped, you're almost certain to be interrupted anyway.

Are you sure this is true? I've been told there is no cap, and for WHM it's possible to get up to -100% spell interruption, meaning you will never be interrupted from damage alone. Even if it caps at 50% though, that's still significant. If half of my Ichis which take damage mid-cast are not interrupted, that will probably be more useful than a few points of haste. Again, I'm not a very good tank, so I suck at casting Ichi. Something like this would help me immensely.

Drakonite wrote:
- Full -Damage taken for when shadows are down. Terra's staff here; not Genbu's. Make sure Medicine Earring is there as well.

Definitely sporting the Med Ring. I dunno about Terra's though... I'll need Yagrush for enmity generation, so swapping to Terra's means I won't be able to do any weaponskills for MP recovery. Depending on Refresh alone seems kind of foolish to me... but won't know for sure until I try it I guess.

Drakonite wrote:
- Full Magic Damage reduction for stuff like JoL and random enemies. Goliard Body set is better for this purpose than a mixed set.

Yeah I totally need to finish off my Goliard set.

Drakonite wrote:
- A mixed -Damage Taken(Priority)/Haste/Fast Cast for :Ichi when Stoneskin is up.

I didn't really think about this that much, but Ichi is almost always up well before I need it, it's Ni that needs the massive haste. I can probably get away with focusing more on spell interruption & damage reduction for Ichi rather than haste. Good call!

Drakonite wrote:
- A good Stoneskin build. **** in as much -Damage taken and haste/Fast cast while still keeping a 350 SS (380 with gorget).

Thankfully, this shouldn't be a problem as an Elvaan WHM :) However... I don't know how useful Stoneskin will truly end up being. The reason it's so crucial to RDM is because of their fast cast. They can easily cast Stoneskin between Utsusemis and even still have a little time for hate generation afterward. For WHM, by the time we finish casting Stoneskin our shadows are down, and by the time we can get another Utsu up, we've absorbed an entire hit with Stoneskin, and it probably won't fully absorb a 2nd, thus defeating the purpose of casting it in the first place. So yeah... not sure how useful it's really going to be unless hate bounces off me and I get a chance to catch up on buffs.

Drakonite wrote:
Which reminds me that you should stay on Solace; not misery.

Yeah that's a good call, Solace is certainly better.

Thanks so much everyone for the great posts so far, keep them coming! I'll be sure to post any results on this thread too.

Edited, Oct 9th 2009 3:27pm by Pergatory
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#11 Oct 09 2009 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know the exact maths to this but I just want to put this out here...

I think you might be a bit too quick to write off the genbu shield, even though it has half the physical dmg taken of the terra/earth staves, if you have capped shield and +shield skill, this could possibly better the terra? As it tends to proc often and can reduce a fair chunk of damage, had faf hitting me for low 100's with standard healing gear + genbu shield.

How do other subs fair? /rdm for phalanx? /pld has a few JAs and shield mastery would help with spell interrupts? /war for defender (i think that is a lol idea)? Obviously some mobs really don't lend themselves to being tanked as anything but /nin anyhow.


From when i was milling through the idea of tanking JOL i was thinking of actually using /pld, purely because of sentinal for the spawns when they go to AF you. Cycling through staves for max effect on the -elements not to mention with solace now + barspells they are better too. /NIN seemed like too much of a gamble if you AFd by a set of mobs, didn't it go through shadows?

It's been a while since I explored this anyway, so I could quite possibly be off point here anyway.
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#12 Oct 09 2009 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I dunno about Terra's though... I'll need Yagrush for enmity generation, so swapping to Terra's means I won't be able to do any weaponskills for MP recovery. Depending on Refresh alone seems kind of foolish to me... but won't know for sure until I try it I guess.


I wouldn't even bother engaging at all. Your TP gain will be absolutely abysmal; and Yagrush itself is a pretty bad melee weapon.

Keep in mind that if you plan on Tanking stuff; you need to act like a tank. You'll need Refresh, Ballads and at least 1 March to cap :Ni recasts. You will NOT be main healing yourself either.

If you want to be a bit more self-sufficient; you can use the Yagrush for Mystic Boon. This will come at the severe cost of your own safety.
You'll lose the -10% from Terras, and will need Goliard body to cap gear-haste; making you lose the 5% fast cast from Marduk Body.

As for Stoneskin; it will be a constant battle to keep it up. You'll be rotating Ni, Ichi and Stoneskin pretty much. It is a hassle, but a needed one.
This is not only for your own safety; but to protect your precious CE (Getting hit for 0 will not make you lose CE).
Ideally, you should have a Co-tank to give you some breathing room, or Stuns, or even your own flash to help with this. This is also why Slow + Elegy is so important.


Quote:
I think you might be a bit too quick to write off the genbu shield, even though it has half the physical dmg taken of the terra/earth staves, if you have capped shield and +shield skill, this could possibly better the terra? As it tends to proc often and can reduce a fair chunk of damage, had faf hitting me for low 100's with standard healing gear + genbu shield.


We don't get Shield Mastery. A shield block will not avoid an interrupt; which is the main attraction for PLD/NIN's usage of a shield.

Genbu's shield is a small shield, so it is probably possible to get a somewhat decent block rate because of that. The actual damage reduced past the -Damage taken will be pretty poor tho.

Also, -Damage taken has increasing effects. Going from -26% to -36% (Or from 32-42 during the night) will have a larger impact than a shield block from a Size 1.

All in all; Terras benefit out style of tanking more than Genbu's. Genbu's isn't far behind tho; and it's a good option if you really want to melee.




As for Tanking JoL; you can tank it on WHM/RDM without a Yagrush just fine. Pretty much any job /RDM can tank JoL decently.



Edited, Oct 10th 2009 2:03am by Drakonite
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#13 Oct 10 2009 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
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I did not see anybody mention this yet: what ACP body did you get? Depending on your current ACP body you could toss it and redo the fight. Then agument it with tanking stats like fast cast and Enmity+.
#14 Oct 10 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually, if you're wanting to do a WHM-tank ACP body, I'd lean more towards Acc/Enmity (making it effectively an Enmity+ RMail).

Still, you're going to want to be carrying your Noble's (or ACoat) specifically for cures. +10/12% cure potency = effectively Enmity+10~12 (roughly).
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#15 Oct 10 2009 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Grats on an actually worthwhile mythic

By the way, wouldn't throwing in Erase whenever possible be better than simply using Poisona? In my past experiences of using Divine Veil, I've always noticed Erasega ripping quite a lot of hate if I hit the whole party with it.
#16 Oct 10 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

By the way, wouldn't throwing in Erase whenever possible be better than simply using Poisona? In my past experiences of using Divine Veil, I've always noticed Erasega ripping quite a lot of hate if I hit the whole party with it.


Erase takes too long to cast(when compared to Poisona), costs 3 times as much mp(18 instead of 6) and has a slightly longer recast.
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#17 Oct 10 2009 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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A while ago I saw this hate guide in somebody's LJ. It had exact CE and VE numbers for every action/spell/JA in the game. Would be interesting to see for a whm tank.
I can't find it now but I think the guy's name was Kirshy? Not sure.

Maybe somebody here knows what I mean and can link it for Pergatory

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 2:48am by Breaze
#18 Oct 10 2009 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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Nevermind on the Suppa. Not sure what I was thinking since you were using Genbu's.
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#19 Oct 10 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Grats on yagrush, and cool beans you're going to give tanking a go, but...

You have aoe -nas, why are you bothering gearing at all for melee? You have B club on a single hand weapon. What are you fighting that is serious enough for you to spam poisona that you could also deal damage to?

You mention starting off with JoL then list DD gear...you guys melee him while tanking?

You want to survive. If yagrush can allow you that much hate, you prolly don't even need to worry much about enmity gear. You just want to survive and spam poisona and whatever other spells.

Magic down gear sets are useful, often times spells have a sufficient cast time you can swap into them.

Interruption down is an interesting idea, coupling it with your haste and aquaveil you should be able to avoid a lot of hits/interrupts.

Whm has a lot of physical damage reduction gear that is good when your shadows are down. They don't help you while shadows are up (unless mobs DA/TA a ton), so you could just have them in your casting macro or shadow down macro.

I really don't see the need to waste any slots on whm melee. If you want to tank on whm because of awesome new enmity potential all the more power to you, but you're not a paladin with atonement, so hitting for 1+ means squat when you have no real weaponskills for that tough of mobs.
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#20 Oct 10 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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http://kanican.livejournal.com/17795.html is Kanican's CE/VE chart for whm.

Flash, repose, and cures are basically your only way to get CE.

For VE you want to mimic a pld/rdm and spam spells with the best cast time to VE generated to MP spent. Erase has higher VE, but is slower to cast.

Poisona is 1(5):300:8 1 second casting and 5 second recast (base w/o haste), it generates 300 VE, and it costs 8 mp

Erase is 2.5(15):480:18
Paralyna is 1(5):300:12

the other -nas are basically just inferior options to poisona, but since you can't spam poinsa, paralyna is also an alternative. I highly doubt that between flashes, reposes, cures, shadows, and any other buffs you will need to use more than poisona.

Edited, Oct 10th 2009 8:30pm by Requim
#21 Oct 10 2009 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, hitting for 1+ is useful (Mystic Boon may not be Atonement's guaranteed 750 damage, but it's more MP), so skimping on melee gear isn't necessarily a good idea.

Really, you'd have to try both on the same mob and see which one works better for you.
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#22 Oct 10 2009 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Erase takes too long to cast(when compared to Poisona), costs 3 times as much mp(18 instead of 6) and has a slightly longer recast.


I don't see how any of that is an issue. Enfeeb-spam tanks still use things like Sleep and Dispel too; it's not just Blind Blind Blind.

Just saying that I'm almost certain Erase is going to rip more hate than Poisona, and even though you can't exactly spam Erase, it might be worth throwing in there.
#23 Oct 10 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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It seems like people are a bit confused on casting spells for enmity. There are two types of spells

Cumulative Enmity (CE) are spells whose enmity sticks around (flash, repose sleep, dispel, etc).

Volatile Enmity (VE) are spells whose enmity decreases over time (poisona, erase, blind, etc).

Now ideally you would endlessly spam CE spells, right? Well, it just so happens that those spells generally have longer recast times and cost more mp. Flash would also be great for a whm, repose is more on the fence due to cast time, IMO. While CE spells are rather rare, everything else generates VE. It just so happens certain spell types generate the same amount despite level or mp spent. So you have fast spells like -nas, and lower debuffs that generate usually around 300 VE. Slower debuffs are 480. Buffs are often 80. You can look up each spell and JA's CE/VE on the link to Kanican's LJ.

Now if you have spells that generate the same amount of VE, despite level or mp, you'll want to use the best ratio of cast time, VE, and MP spent. I could spam silena or blindna, which are just as fast as poisona and have the same VE, but they cost more MP so that is silly.

Similarly, you could cast erase, but considering that casting time is 2.5 as long as poisona and is only 1.6 as much VE and costs 2.25 as much MP as poisona. The alternative I suggested was paralyna, which is 12mp, 1 sec casting, and 300 VE, so you could cast Poisona/Paralnya for 600 VE and 20 mp or you suggest erase for 480 18 mp.

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 12:21pm by Requim
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#24 Oct 11 2009 at 12:26 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Erase takes too long to cast(when compared to Poisona), costs 3 times as much mp(18 instead of 6) and has a slightly longer recast.


I don't see how any of that is an issue. Enfeeb-spam tanks still use things like Sleep and Dispel too; it's not just Blind Blind Blind.

Just saying that I'm almost certain Erase is going to rip more hate than Poisona, and even though you can't exactly spam Erase, it might be worth throwing in there.


I'm not saying it shouldn't be used at all- the way I interpreted your statement was that you were stating Erase only. My mistake.
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#25 Oct 11 2009 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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DISCLAIMER: I read through in kind of a hurry because I was excited about this topic, and in between events -- I really hope I didn't miss anything, and make a stupid repeat of advice! (very sorry if I do)

Spell Interruption Uncapped

I've personally cast Ichi through IT++ mob swings many, many, many times. I've rather thoroughly tested this, I'm sure you can find some of my publicly posted results on BG if you look a little.

Definitely go for it on /NIN, it's just too easy. Even on /PLD or whatever, I thought for sure you had a Muse, if so you can come very close. Merits of course help too!

(please swap TP for these wands, I really don't think your TP will matter much; see below)

Shield Mastery

I'm about 99% sure that this works... you get the trait at PLD25, and I coulda sworn I'd felt evidence of its assistance when playing around on /PLD. However, PLDs stack shield skill sky high for a reason, even if you get up to ~240 or something kinda impressive for WHM, that's prolly not gonna be reliable for big stuff.

Weapon Swaps and TP

I really think you'll have trouble with attack as well as acc, PLDs have trouble just breaking zero sometimes, because all they want is Atonement (not worried about melee dot damage) -- we will have an even tougher time, not to mention accuracy. So then, when we hit 100% TP on the big stuff, those boons are gonna be pretty awful I bet. Even with optimal sets, you need some melee songs to get more than 2 digits. I just don't think it's worth it to give up Terra + 2xEremite(or equiv) + Yagrush all available.

I think it'd be more beneficial to try to make your enmity generation as MP-efficient as possible, rather than trying to provide yourself extra MP for the less-efficient actions (regularly).

(granted, I'm not 100% what the answer to the MP-efficiency question is, as far as CE is concerned; whether Repose is worth it compared to cures, for example)

STAGING!!!

EDIT: Added this! Almost forgot!

This is still a huge concern I have -- the benefit of yagrush comes from hitting lots of people - so you do need to make sure you have lots of targets in the back line, all standing together -- ideally 6, but realistically I could see you only getting 4 at a time. If there's a BLM party, that'd work perfectly, since Yagrush works out of PT (or is it just alliancePT's?) (EDIT: found evidence confirming)

BLM, BLM, BLM, BLM, RDM, BRD (or whatever, cor, blah blah)

should all be standing together -IF- you have that kinda setup for the hugemob.

But there may be cases where it's

DD, DD, DD, DD,RDM, BRD
or
DD, DD, DD, COR, BRD, RDM

...in which case, you may only get 2/4 or 3/3 targets max. Or, I dunno...but you get my meaning, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on staging, whether or not having a BLM party for example, seems a concern to you as well.

----

That's all I can really contribute for now, but I was always very interested in a Yagrush tank, so I can't wait to hear how it goes! :D GOOD LUCK!

EDIT: more colors

Edited, Oct 13th 2009 10:24am by RyaWHM
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#26 Oct 12 2009 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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With regard to enmity generation, I don't see any reason to use anything except Poisona for the VE side of things. Yes, I could mix in things like Erase, Paralyna, Silena, etc... but Poisona is the best enmity per MP ratio, and I can literally cast it back to back. I might have to wait 1 extra second longer between casts than I would alternating Poisona/Paralyna for example, but I don't think that'll be an issue. MP will be the big issue, as it's easy to blow through MP on WHM... but getting it back will be harder.

In terms of melee, I'm still on the fence here, and leaning toward Yagrush+Genbu being the best option. However, there have been a lot of good points made regarding WHM acc/atk, and the strength of the average endgame mob. Meleeing them may not be practical at all, I'm not sure. I'll be ready to admit defeat on that point pretty quickly if it doesn't work out, and resort to weapon swapping for different scenarios in which case I won't even bother engaging.

To answer some questions that came up:
I went with a Summoner body for ACP, so that's not available. I'm not serious enough about tanking on WHM to give up the SMN body. Whatever I have now will have to do. Also, I haven't upgraded Marduk's body yet, and probably won't for a while. I'm still in debt to the tune of 8 figures for the Yagrush, which I'll be paying off for a while now. So no expensive items that I don't already own will be viable for this.

Drakonite wrote:
As for Stoneskin; it will be a constant battle to keep it up. You'll be rotating Ni, Ichi and Stoneskin pretty much. It is a hassle, but a needed one.
This is not only for your own safety; but to protect your precious CE (Getting hit for 0 will not make you lose CE).

This may be true. Losing CE from being hit was another of my big concerns. I hope I'm able to find a way to skip Stoneskin or keep it up for several rounds of Utsusemi instead of constantly recasting it, because it won't leave much time for enmity generation if so...


P.S. Requim our tanks do not melee JoL. See my statement above about the difference between the general tank equipment discussion, and JoL specific setup. I am not discussing how to tank JoL, that's not even worth discussing. I just mentioned that in passing as it'll be my warm-up. My real concern is regarding mobs I will have to be in melee range for.

Edited, Oct 12th 2009 8:54am by Pergatory
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#27 Oct 13 2009 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I misread the JoL/gear setup, but the point was meleeing JoL is as absurd as ever wasting a slot on PCC for whm endgame tanking. Does anyone know how mystic boon does on end game mobs? I really have no clue how it scales, but have pretty low expectations of any whm weaponskill. Maybe I've ignored some endgame mobs where a whm could effectively melee.

Quote:
the other -nas are basically just inferior options to poisona, but since you can't spam poisona, paralyna is also an alternative. I highly doubt that between flashes, reposes, cures, shadows, and any other buffs you will need to use more than poisona.


I was agreeing with you on poisona being optimal (which is why I compared the numbers of it and erase). Also, has it already been established that the VE is multiplied by the number of people hit by it when using Yagrush? I'm not familiar with any testing about it so not sure if I am missing any key info.

Mentioning spell casting interruption you could also make two macros for casting, one including full haste for the times where you're recasting while you still have shadows. The second gear set could try to max interruption down with dual wands and fill the rest of the slots with damage reduction gear.

As far as the actual VE being generated, if poisona generates 300 per cast per person that can give you max 1800, the same base as voke. A pld after enmity will get 2400-2700 while even with -15 enmity you'ld be getting 1530 with 6 people hit (although under a tenth the recast!).

The biggest issue is that you need to be hitting multiple people to get a substantial amount of VE. What's the cast range on the DV effect, 10'? It seems like in most events the only party that would have 6 people that close together would be the blm party, otherwise you'll only be consistently hitting 3-5 people with it, which while still sizable enmity considering the effort. And for most JoL setups don't you have the tanks in a 12'-10'-12' "V"? Not sure how easy it would be to hit more than 3 people.
#28 Oct 13 2009 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Q
Requim wrote:
has it already been established that the VE is multiplied by the number of people hit by it when using Yagrush?

A
Sai wrote:
Yagrush does indeed give enmity for each 'na or erase spell it hits. If you have 6 ppl on a mob's hatelist and erase hits all 6 ppl, you will get the enmity for erasing 6 ppl, not just 1.

(source)

----------

Q
Requim wrote:
What's the cast range on the DV effect, 10'?

A
Sai wrote:
The distance on Yagrush's AoE is 10. Whoever you cast erase/paralyna etc on, the other party members need to be within 10 of that target to receive the spell.

(source)

----------

And lastly, I agree with your biggest issue (see previous post):
Requim wrote:
The biggest issue is that you need to be hitting multiple people to get a substantial amount of VE. // the only party that would [work] would be the blm party

Rya wrote:
STAGING!!!

This is still a huge concern I have -- the benefit of yagrush comes from hitting lots of people - so you do need to make sure you have lots of targets in the back line, all standing together -- ideally 6, but realistically I could see you only getting 4 at a time. If there's a BLM party, that'd work perfectly, since Yagrush works out of PT

BLM, BLM, BLM, BLM, RDM, BRD (or whatever, cor, blah blah)

in [many cases], you may only get 2/4 or 3/3 targets max.


Edited, Oct 13th 2009 10:30am by RyaWHM
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#29 Oct 13 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks Rya :D
#30 Oct 13 2009 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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Regarding the positioning concern, I plan to work very closely with the BRDs to accomplish the most in that department. They seem like they would be best suited to place themselves in an optimum position for me to cast on them. They may sometimes have to move around to avoid hitting certain people with certain songs, but most of the time they can stand in range of their entire party and still function effectively in endgame events. If it's a DD party, they may move a little forward for melee songs and I won't hit the healer in the party for that cast, but aside from that I think it should be golden.
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#31 Oct 13 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I think that if you can consistently hit minimum 2 people it will work out fine, 600 VE per cast is still better than a pld/rdm enfeeb spam (even after enmity). Initially I had forgot you could -na-ga other parties, though your use of the bard seems quite clever.

CE still sounds a bit iffy. If you're confident in your ability to not die, or if have compliant mages you can create cure kits like a fiend with zenith and other mp gear (zenith x 5 + mp/hp rings is a free cure IV alone). If you had refresh, ballad, and/or evoker's that should give you solid enough refresh to use higher hate spells.

In the end you're still limited to significantly less enmity for your few CE spells so I think the biggest concern would be duration of fight. Not sure what would happen in a sustained fight since you could still maintain crazy levels of VE, anyone know?
#32 Oct 14 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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Requim wrote:
CE still sounds a bit iffy. If you're confident in your ability to not die, or if have compliant mages you can create cure kits like a fiend with zenith and other mp gear (zenith x 5 + mp/hp rings is a free cure IV alone). If you had refresh, ballad, and/or evoker's that should give you solid enough refresh to use higher hate spells.

I doubt I'll feel safe enough to start doing stuff like that, as it requires surplus MP and I'm worried I won't have enough MP to sustain constant Repose/Flash/Cures for CE.

Requim wrote:
In the end you're still limited to significantly less enmity for your few CE spells so I think the biggest concern would be duration of fight. Not sure what would happen in a sustained fight since you could still maintain crazy levels of VE, anyone know?

VE & CE are capped independently at 10,000. So once I hit 10,000 VE, there's no point in going higher. I can hit that cap pretty quickly, so getting CE will be the hard part. We've established that further up in the thread, but the implication is that as other jobs start to exceed the 10,000 mark (probably more through CE than VE in their case) my own CE will become more and more vital to keep high. Once other jobs start to cap out their CE, my VE will likely be capped and the two will cancel out, and I'll need to have higher CE than their VE in order to hold hate over them. For longer fights, I think that will be the hard part. Spike damage may pull hate off me, but I should be able to drop a Cure IV on the person once they're hit and get it right back... I would think.
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#33 Oct 14 2009 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yagrush does indeed give enmity for each 'na or erase spell it hits. If you have 6 ppl on a mob's hatelist and erase hits all 6 ppl, you will get the enmity for erasing 6 ppl, not just 1.


Just to clarify, that's a quality of Divine Veil (and Accession -nas from SCHs), not Yagrush specifically. All Yagrush is doing is making Divine Veil active all of the time.
#34 Oct 16 2009 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I definitely recommend going with a interruption down > haste/damage reduction setup for Utsusemi: Ichi and full haste for Ni. Setup I'd recommend for Ichi would be something like:

Main: Terra's Staff
Ammo: Happy Egg
Head: Nashira Turban
Neck: Willpower Torque
Ear1: Magnetic Earring
Ear2: Loq. Earring
Body: Goliard Saio
Hands: Blessed +1
Back: Solitaire Cape
Waist: Druid's Rope
Legs: Blessed +1
Feet: AF+1

Interrupt -69%, -8% from merits, -25% from Aquaveil = 102%
Haste+16% (+loq ear fast cast)

Aquaveil gives 25% interruption down, and interrupt caps at 102% - Aquaveil/Interruption Testing

Edit: There's also Capricorn Staff if you'd rather 5% more haste than the damage reduction from Terra's. This interrupt down gear is all fairly easy to get, and it's nice not having to use the weapon/sub slots for it. Just gotta keep Aquaveil up

Edited, Oct 16th 2009 7:49pm by Daleven

Edited, Oct 16th 2009 7:50pm by Daleven
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#35 Nov 07 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Somewhat relevant, but I saw a Noble's Tunic in Sandy with enmity+2 augmented.

I wish I took a SS :(
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