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Auspice uses.Follow

#52 Nov 12 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Default
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You know, this "Homing Missile bs" is also easily handled by reducing it's TP spam.


Not really. Things go to **** when it's used even once if not all gears have been taken out. For it to not use it once is pretty much a matter of extreme luck, not how much Subtle Blow you're able to pile on. (I have never had a LBC that didn't use it at least once.)


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No it is not. You yourself aknowledged you've never tried the Monk/Penury/Auspice setup before.


Because it's never come up for me. I can count the number of times I've partied with a COR at 75 for ANY activity on one hand.

Here's what I do know: Penance/Monk's Roll, from what I've heard about it, already made these bosses easy mode. Auspice is not "needed" to make this setup work, therefore advertising it as such is just plain wrong. And if you don't have Penance/Monk's Roll, Auspice alone is not going to do anything but burn your MP faster, or worse, let someone die because you're busy casting something useless.


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Math says hi. Already addressed why this point is wrong before: Auspice will always pay itself against this mobs; always.


My experiences with it have said otherwise. If I try casting it on anything that lives a while and has potentially devastating TP moves, it still uses those moves at the same rate (because news flash: +10 Subtle Blow is subtle), meaning an overall loss of MP for me.

If you cannot understand this basic concept I don't know what to tell you.


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This is you going "lalalalalala I can't hear you".

What Auspice brings to the table is extremly close to what Haste brings to the table defensive-wise.


It's nowhere NEAR close. They are not the same thing. In fact, one is better than the other with a clear, visible, and consistent effect.

Trying to equate these effects somehow is like saying every character in Smash Bros. is on equal footing and there is no such thing as character tiers. (Hint: It's not true)

Edited, Nov 12th 2009 4:40pm by Fynlar
#53 Nov 12 2009 at 11:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not really. Things go to **** when it's used even once if not all gears have been taken out. For it to not use it once is pretty much a matter of extreme luck, not how much Subtle Blow you're able to pile on. (I have never had a LBC that didn't use it at least once.)


Again, your lack of salvage experience is showing.

There is a fairly simple strategy to avoid homing missile all together; allowing to completely skip the gear pulling area (Saving 15+ Minutes).
And guess what? It involves feeding it as little TP as possible.

Basically; as long as your Monks can stay off a side, it will not do homing missile. LBC can only face someone if it chases someone; or during certain TP moves (non-Homing).

So it becomes fairly simple: Every time it faces a monk, they simply move over to a side of the chariot.
For this to work, you need your Monks unbound before it can fire a Homing Missile.
Having enough time to remove bind from both tanks and enough time left over to move to a side is crucial. Auspice will buy you that time.


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Here's what I do know: Penance/Monk's Roll, from what I've heard about it, already made these bosses easy mode. Auspice is not "needed" to make this setup work, therefore advertising it as such is just plain wrong. And if you don't have Penance/Monk's Roll, Auspice alone is not going to do anything but burn your MP faster, or worse, let someone die because you're busy casting something useless.


For starters: Monk's Roll is not "Needed" for the setups I described to work. This setups where already being used before people realized they could use a COR for bosses, and way before the WHM Auspice update.

What they do however, is enhance their effectiveness. Auspice alone does it by the magnitude of around -12.5% TP per monk (Increasing returns say hi).

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My experiences with it have said otherwise. If I try casting it on anything that lives a while and has potentially devastating TP moves, it still uses those moves at the same rate (because news flash: +10 Subtle Blow is subtle), meaning an overall loss of MP for me.

If you cannot understand this basic concept I don't know what to tell you.


The problem is that your experiences are on mobs that do not form part of the discussion. We are discussing Salvage and Gear NM's; not your everyday whack-away NM of the month.

Also: I have not once said to use it outside this mobs have I? I know it's fairly insignificant when you have 4+ melees whacking at something. But I also know it becomes significant when you only have 2 + reduceTP abilities in play.

The problem here is that you seem to lack the ability to make that distinction.


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It's nowhere NEAR close. They are not the same thing. In fact, one is better than the other with a clear, visible, and consistent effect.

Trying to equate these effects somehow is like saying every character in Smash Bros. is on equal footing and there is no such thing as character tiers. (Hint: It's not true)


Auspice effects seem pretty clear and consistent to me. It can't get any simpler than 10% reduction to damage trough TP moves. It won't suddenly change or go away just because you want it to.

But I guess logic with you doesn't fly. You want the hard math? Here's mathematical proof of an obvious mathematical attribute:

(Warning: Numbers ahead)


Basic Salvage setup:

- 2x Identical Monks
- No Enemy TP Regain (2x Penury)
- All damage Will come trough chariot's TP moves (Damage only comes from TP moves and shadow-wiping after effects).
- Will disregard other DD TP-Feed (SAM WS run in. THF SA/TA/Feint duties)

TP per Punch per monk:
- 7.9 Pre- Subtle blow.  
- 6.32 with native Subtle blow (20%) 
- 5.53 With Auspice (10%)


This is what the Per-round equivalent totals looks like:
- 31.6 Nothing 
- 25.28 Native SB 
- 22.12 Native SB+ Auspice


Now let's calculate actual attack speed. Our monks will have 50% Haste (25% Gear, 15% Spell, 10% March) which is what you need to cap your Utsusemi recasts.
With 348 base delay, this gives us a full round each 174 miliseconds.

Delay to reach 100 TP:
- 550.6 (9.1 Seconds)  
- 688.2 (11.47 Seconds)      Native SB 
- 786.6 (13.11 Seconds)      Native SB + Auspice


TP moves every 3 minutes:
- 19.87   
- 15.69  Native SB 
- 13.72  Native SB + Auspice




On it's full, 3 minute duration:
- Auspice will have delayed each TP move by 1.64 seconds.
- It will have prevented 1.97 TP moves.

In the low end damage of the TP spectrum (2x200ish Inertia) this converts to 788 damage.
Bit less than a Cure V worth of MP. Meaning it will have paid itself 2.5 times at minimum.

At the high end of the spectrum (let's say, 4400 Discoid) this is around 8668 damage prevented. Assume a 850 Cure V, and it just paid itself 28.6 times.

So, I have just mathematically proved that Auspice will pay itself. And that the potential prevention it affords is monumental.






TL;DR Version: Auspice is awesome for chariots.

But it's not like anyone who's ever done salvage seriously didn't knew already.



Edited, Nov 13th 2009 12:26am by Drakonite
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#54Fynlar, Posted: Nov 13 2009 at 12:08 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I gotta say, it's funny to see people think that something they're doing is always making a gigantic difference 100% of the time when you've used it enough yourself to know better than that. Kinda reminds me of my endless battle against Deodorize and people who insist it does things that it simply doesn't...
#55 Nov 13 2009 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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You know what helps people stay mobile and prevent as many Homing Missiles as possible? Staying focused on erasing bind from Inertia Stream, not casting a meaningless buff that will not result in the mob using TP moves any slower.


I can assure you with absolute confidence that Auspice will make your job of erasing Bind much easier; and reduce the amount of times they are bound. On top of giving a larger margin of error for the monks to move.

It takes no math to prove this. You're just trying to pass a logical fallacy as an argument.


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Also, you act like it's my fault LBC ends up using Homing Missile at all, or that my group never ended up using MNKs. I don't control the melee or the shell. How about you stop with the patronizations; it's unbecoming of you.


I'm talking about strategies and tactics that can be used and are a clear demonstration that Auspice does work.

It's not your fault that you ended up with the group you had or that you had the experiences you did.
What it IS your fault however: is acting as if your experiences are absolute.

I don't think I need to provide another example to be told something akin to "But dude, it totally did not work in Dynamis, so it shouldn't work in salvage!!!"


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LBC is a Salvage NM. And that is what was initially brought up, not "Battleclad Chariot Battleclad Chariot Battleclad Chariot because I said so!!!"


So we moved on to LBC. I told you there is a way where Auspice and Subtle blow can be used to make your previously awful LBC run into a smooth run.

To which you replied "Not really". From which I proceeded to give a detailed explanation of how it works and why.
From which you decided to ignore and continue your ramblings about not having enough time or whatever.


Quote:
I gotta say, it's funny to see people think that something they're doing is always making a gigantic difference 100% of the time when you've used it enough yourself to know better than that. Kinda reminds me of my endless battle against Deodorize and people who insist it does things that it simply doesn't...


And you reminds me of the kind of people that used to belive DRK's where the best DD because they could put big numbers; while MNK was a loljob because it had no ZOMG visible high-damage WS.

You can't see it, we get it. But math says it's there and it is doing something.

You don't believe in math, I get it. But experimental application says it is true and it works.

You don't believe in tangible evidence. I get it. May I offer you an explanation with drawings and colors now?




Quote:
Trying to equate these effects somehow is like saying every character in Smash Bros. is on equal footing and there is no such thing as character tiers. (Hint: It's not true)


I also got a SSBM analogy. You're the kind of player that believe the tiers are set in stone. I'm the kind of player that know this tiers can change based on terrain and settings.

I tell you a simple concept like "Mewtwo improves his gameplay significantly when you allow items".
But you can not understand how items could possibly alter the outcome; as you've never played with them.

I tell you that fighting on a large field will severely hamper Fox's ability to get quick kills. But you've never fought outside final destination; so you can not comprehend how the terrain can affect an outcome.
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#56 Nov 13 2009 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Discussion's been going back and forth between two folks for a while now, I figure it can use some fresh perspective.

I have a few little points to add to the current debate:

Regarding the math Drak provided, I think it's a little skewed because chariots won't use TP moves as soon as they get 100% TP until they are under 25% HP. Before that point, it often takes a good 150-200% TP for them to use a TP move. I suspect Auspice prevents closer to 1 TP move per cast rather than 1.97 in that situation.

However, that being said, is 44-48 MP worth preventing one TP move? Abso-freakin-lutely. If you know you have a moment to cast it and your melees won't die while you're doing so, then it shouldn't even be a debate. Do it.

On the other hand, I will say that Fyn has some good points, too. Mainly that sometimes you're just too busy to safely get Auspice up, and let's face it, it should be your lowest priority pretty much all the time. I can't think of a situation where any other spell you should be casting would be less important than Auspice, so it should be the first spell you drop when the going gets tough. And let's face it, Salvage bosses are BUSY for a WHM (especially if you have a RDM who can't backup heal for spit like mine). The only Salvage boss I will *always* use Auspice on is Battleclad, for obvious reasons. The others, I sort of play it by feel. On an un-nerfed LBC, I do try not to skip it (it buys you time between TP moves, which is crucial in the event of an Inertia Stream > Homing Missiles combo). And yes, I have gone entire LBC fights without a single Homing Missiles, although under 25% it's mostly down to luck as you guys have said.

So yeah, I guess I'm kinda halfway between you guys, but tend to side more with Drak that Auspice is absolutely 100% worth casting if you can safely cast it. No, you won't really see it working, and it may not "feel" like there's less TP moves, but rest assured that it is working very well. It's like Conserve MP in that respect, it's only visible over the long run (something humans aren't very good at observing) but that doesn't mean it isn't worth having.
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#57 Nov 13 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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I tried to keep the math as simple as possible. There's a thousand other tiny factors that I could add to make it more accurate; but that wouldn't change the conclusion.

Still; most chariots fights hover around 6-10 minutes. At the very least, you should have Auspice covered in the first 3. As I see no reason why you wouldn't cast them while everyone is buffing up <_<

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It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
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