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Bad whms in parties. Follow

#52 Sep 23 2009 at 12:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I definitely would bring echos to the mire, but if I ever have any group (or even a level 75 duo w/ a melee) where I'm burning more than a stack of drops, either I'm doing something hella wrong or the melee can't hold hate for beans. Whichever the case, I'm going to be frustrated, because that's not my norm >_>
#53 Oct 14 2009 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I see these all the time (Bad WHM in EXP) and I always wonder to myself... HOW?

The WHM today is NOTHING like the WHM of 2004. Not only does the WHM of today have tools and gear that would make the 2004 WHM cry himself to sleep, but the melee/tanks also have vastly improved gear/abilities, reducing damage taken, increasing damage dealt (and thus lowering time to kill a mob), and reducing the risk of pulling hate. Adding to all this is the overabundant wealth of information/faqs/guides that exist for each job that wasn't available back then.

And yet.. and yet.. for a job like WHM that is fortunate enough to end up with an EXP invite now that they're COMPLETELY unnecessary for XP, it seems like the playskill of the average XP WHM has drastically declined. (Although this is said about many jobs)

It's like.. how do you fail at WHMing in xp?! You don't even need -enmity gear for exp. You don't even need food (if it's a tpburn setup)! Or rather I should say, food should have no effect (in a tpburn). A few extra max MP or HMP makes zero difference in a 2~4 hour exp grind that you aren't supposed to be resting at all during anyway.

All you need to do is: Haste, Regen, remove status effects, apply bars (if applicable) and do some light curing. Well, do the above while moderating your MP consumption and helping sleep adds. You may also be forced to play the debuffer if you are the only debuffer-capable mage in the group. That's ok too now that we have /sch.

WHM in exp is usually not reactive or volatile in any way. A WHM in a smooth running party will find they are cycling through a pattern of spells in the same order, with an intermittent cure here and there.

WHM in merit is different. If anyone says WHM in a meripo is boring or repetitive, I will Hexa you cuz urdoinitrong! WHM is teh UBER in merit. Including the above requirements, we can also: Assist Pulling! Kite/Tank! Deal occasional damage through Afflatus Holy! Aspir it up like a BLM! Drain lost HP back with an MP efficiency that makes a cure spell seem like a waste!

Along the Kite/Tank line.. sometimes it's just more MP efficient to become a mob's target for someone else than it is to let it wail on them and spam cures (assuming it's a situation where the mob can't be slept). But since most mobs can be slept and WHM can reliably land sleep on things that are immune/resistant to dark based sleep, like Skeletons and Imps, this situation shouldn't come up too often.

But even without the advanced tactics, it's really really hard to suck at WHM sticking to the meat and potatoes staples of the job. I just dont get it. I can meripo with a BRD, with no RDM (I AM the RDM RAWR!) and maintain an infinite MP pool (assuming my DD aren't sponging it up).

*Edit* Got so caught up in the OP that I forgot to respond to anything in the thread lol ^_^

Echo drops: This isn't even an option. HAVE THEM! Never underestimate the ungodly stupidity of others which result in your silence!

On the topic of mobs that use AGAS: Repose for the ghetto stun. Voila. Problem solved.

Dia 2: If you don't have a RDM with Dia 3, use Dia 2. On every mob your party is engaged on. All the time. If someone insists Bio is better DoT, calmly explain to that person they are retarded and should die in a vat of burning Jello. (This is for EXP ppl, EXP! Don't nostrilflare)

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 2:03am by Chocotaku

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 2:04am by Chocotaku
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#54 Oct 15 2009 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Aspir it up like a BLM! Drain lost HP back with an MP efficiency that makes a cure spell seem like a waste!


Except you aspir on birds for them to relfect aspir right back and take even more mp away that you just took back.
#55 Oct 15 2009 at 3:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Except you aspir on birds for them to relfect aspir right back and take even more mp away that you just took back.
urdoinitrong

Also, bird camp wasn't mentioned specifically. Aspirable mobs at every merit camp I believe.

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 5:16am by Chocotaku
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#56 Oct 15 2009 at 3:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Birds are practically assumed.
#57 Oct 15 2009 at 4:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Birds are practically assumed.


By whom? People that can't maintain chains on mobs that yield higher base xp? >_<
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#58 Oct 15 2009 at 4:53 AM Rating: Decent
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There are EXP camps that aren't at colibri? This is news to me; tell me more.

But seriously, yeah, birds ARE practically assumed nowadays. ****, if Greater Lolibri are all full, the first question isn't "is MJSP/someotherLV75camp open?"; it's usually "anyone know someone at 37~ or 55-62~ we can sync to?"

Regarding the whole Aspir thing, getting the timing right is actually fairly tricky. My problem usually isn't getting it mimicked back on me; it's not finishing my cast in time before the thing dies. Mob death tends to accelerate when it's getting close to death because more people tend to be tempted to whip out a WS to kill it fast at that point, so after enough of that, you'll gradually get accustomed to casting it earlier so you can beat the WS rush... but then you'll get those birds where you'll Aspir early and the melees *won't* WS rush it, perhaps due to too many Feather Tickles, so the bird will manage to get his mimic off. You see where this is going...
You might be able to avoid getting mimicked on by running back asap when your Aspir casts, but this doesn't always go flawlessly either because those pesky birds have noticeably longer spellcasting range than players do, not to mention Chainspell speed.

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 6:54am by Fynlar
#59 Oct 15 2009 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Cast Dia on them first, then Aspir?

And always have Blink up while Aspiring?

And be at the max casting range when you're ready to Aspir?
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#60 Oct 15 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Cast Dia on them first, then Aspir?

And always have Blink up while Aspiring?

And be at the max casting range when you're ready to Aspir?


Yes yes yes, I have thought about all of that stuff. Those are all still hassles though that take up time, and trying to fit these things in often leads to birds dying before your Aspir fires.

Plus, max distance is not always easy to immediately ascertain if you do not have a distance plugin. Sure you can find it by staying far away and then edging closer, but you don't have time for that with these mobs.
#61 Oct 16 2009 at 3:36 AM Rating: Decent
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It happens sometimes. Birds aspir you back, sometimes for more than you got from them. Aspiring aggressively is still a net gain over time, but requires practice. Obviously aspiring a fresh bird is optimal.

The best situation is to use it on a mob near camp that the bard has just lullaby'd/elegy'd. That allows you to run out of range before the mimic.

Or, if you're not using your Strategems for much, you can macro in Alacrity.
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#62 Oct 18 2009 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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I see these all the time (Bad WHM in EXP) and I always wonder to myself... HOW?

The WHM today is NOTHING like the WHM of 2004. Not only does the WHM of today have tools and gear that would make the 2004 WHM cry himself to sleep, but the melee/tanks also have vastly improved gear/abilities, reducing damage taken, increasing damage dealt (and thus lowering time to kill a mob), and reducing the risk of pulling hate. Adding to all this is the overabundant wealth of information/faqs/guides that exist for each job that wasn't available back then.

And yet.. and yet.. for a job like WHM that is fortunate enough to end up with an EXP invite now that they're COMPLETELY unnecessary for XP, it seems like the playskill of the average XP WHM has drastically declined. (Although this is said about many jobs)


The next time you see a bmw rearend someone... you will have your answer. You can give people some **** good tools, but they still have to know how to use them. And some people are just tards.

Edited, Oct 18th 2009 9:57pm by lightningcount
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#63 Oct 21 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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salvationinpurgatory wrote:
melee that can't manage hate.



DD that can't manage hate are the worst for a whm to. When they get hit they get hit hard and require big cures in which case the Whm mage ends up pulling hate. Seems some DD take pride in how big their number are and it almost an ego thing. Look at how much damage I did. I was recently in a party where there were two DD both hitting the mob before the tank even had hit provoke. DD need to learn to manage the hate they get. Funny thing is they also complain about not being hasted. LOL. Yea I am going to put haste on someone already pulling more hate than the tank. Allot of parties go down because of this. Let the tank build up some hate first. It aint as big of a problem in experience parties as in other things but it will require more down time.


Phaulken wrote:
The difference between a bad White Mage and a bad melee is that you can tell when the White Mage is bad because you can measure it in deaths.


That is so untrue that I do not think I even need to give a reason.



eldelphia wrote:
Any WHM who doesn't take echo drops with them wherever they go - is an idiot. I'm sorry but it's true. You are ultimately responsible for being able to cast and remove this crap from other people. That's not to say others shouldn't bring drops but a WHM should ALWAYS carry Echo drops.



I agree 100 percent…



Vih wrote:
Wow OP is just a giant hate on for WHM's.

I retired my 75 WHM from party play a long time ago because of this kind of BS attitude. People seem to ALWAYS blame the WHM for party failure and ALWAYS think they are the number 1 priority in the party. "HASTE" "I NEED HASTE" "PARA" "I'M BLINDED" "POISON". 6 members in a party, 5 of which can't do anything but hit the mob, 1 of which should be hit by the mob, 4 of which are doing their damndest to rip hate and show how hard they can hit the mob, and all start crying the instant they get an ATK down. "ERASE" (I fuggin love it when they use all caps). Priority 1 is not your erase, poisona or haste it's keeping people alive. Sometimes I avoid hasting people because if you allow them too much TP they decide it would be better for the party if they become a cure sink. Personally I don't care if you have to suffer poison for the full duration because I have to cure bomb some berserk suicidal melee to keep the party alive then that's whats going to happen.

WHM is not a difficult job and yes there are a few do and do nots. Bring echo drops it's important. Curaga 3 or 4 can be used but only in some situations not ideal for party play. as for standing in melee range depending on mob type Esuna only works if a WHM stands in melee range. As for blaming the WHM though, that's total BS.

The WHM is a reactionary job and has to react to the situation of the party if someone in the party just did something stupid it's the WHM's job to fix the problem before someone ends up dead. The measure of success or fail is not the sole responsibility of the WHM but how the group functions as a whole.

Oh and lightningcount not to say everything you said is wrong but your huge YOU ALL SUCK WHM'S rant and start spouting off rules is in pretty poor taste.



Great post...



lightningcount wrote:
9 times out of 10 it is either the tank or healer.



I do not think it is that high.. I see allot of deaths lately do to DD that do not know how to not pull hate. Are they pulling hate because of a bad tank? Maybe but you still can manage it and adjust. Again I do not see this as much in exp parties but it does happen there too it just does not ussually cause the hole party to do down...


Everyone has a role in the party and has to know how to play their role and a party can go down by anyone. Their is more pressue on a tank and a whm and parties do fail because of them and probably more often.





Edited, Oct 21st 2009 1:53pm by Nashred
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#64 Oct 25 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
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I agree with a lot of what was said here.

Everyone when they first start playing has a lot to learn. The problem is that by the time you reach lvl 40-50 you should already know what to do. This isn't always the case.
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I've had good and horrid whms that I've never played with before. Just because they are in your LS doesn't make them a good player.

Yeah it's fairly easy if you have an RDM to backup heal and refresh you if you're not /sch or can't use sublimation yet, and a BRD for double ballad, COR. I'm sorry but I can't consider any WHM a good WHM until they've done a TP burn in the mire while being the only mage in the pt. You're the sole source for anything magical including debuffs. It's also easy if you have a good melee pt with good gear and a good tank and can take down mobs quickly, a minute or less.

If you don't watch your own MP and know when you need to rest then it's your fault if the pt gets into trouble. I've rarely seen a puller that watched the mages MP. All they care about, all the melee, care about, usually, is getting high chains... For crying out loud if you want to live let your mage rest to full now and then. If the healing mage carries the right HMP gear and cookies then it doesn't take long. Of course at different levels you have different HMP options. I use Pluto's Staff, Grandiose Chain, Hierarch Belt, Errant Houppelande, Arisian Grip, Healer's Cap+1, Antivenom Earring and Ginger cookies for a total of 25 HMP (without rdm brd or cor). What takes a long time is when we have to get up to cast haste, 'na', or heavy cure.

Curaga 3 once during a battle isn't going to kill you if you let hate be established first. But if a pt is so bad that you need Curaga right at the start... something is wrong. Curaga 4 near the end of the fight is fine. By 'near' I mean if pt hp is so low that even a mob at 5% can still kill someone.

Never use Cure 4 or Curaga 5 during a battle. Use a Cure 5 if Cure 3 won't work. I'd rather over cure than get hate. Always keep tanks and damage takers regen'd.

If someone is poisoned don't just automatically hit poisona. If they are so low on hp that poison will kill them you are better off using a Cure 5. If you are fighting mobs such as mandies in the jungles that spam sleep, leave them poisoned but give them regen. If you are poisoned you can't be slept. If you are fighting mobs that spam eva/att down... why waste mp on spamming erase? Use that mp for cures and hastes. If you are lvl 50+ and get shock, dia, rasp or what have you, you will have plenty of hp (unless of course as said before alerady low hp) to keep you alive while other more needed spells are used. And at 75.. well... stop being a baby if you get hit with a DoT, again unless you are so low it'll kill you within seconds.

Edited, Oct 25th 2009 1:33pm by Shastal
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