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Bad whms in parties. Follow

#1 Sep 07 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Default
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OK I am about at the end of my rope here. I understand that 1-75 unless you do EVERY party with ls members, you will be getting bad party members. However... 7 bad whms in a row is kind of rediculous. Honestly whm in parties, not too hard to do. Keep your tank/dds hasted, keep up with NA spells on the tanks FIRST, and for places like the mire... Bring 3 stacks of Echo drops just in case. I don't care if your bank is low, I don't care if you don't have much time to farm, I don't even care if your mom just died. A good whm should ALWAYS have at least a stack of echos on them at ALL TIMES.

When you are leveling, there are 3 things you should always watch, your hate level, your tanks hp, and your Melee's HP. You should not have to watch your own MP. Your puller should be watching that. But...don't think you should never tell your puller to hold up. Even the best pullers slip up sometimes.

Keep your tanks hasted (post 40) keep silence off of them. And by this, I mean that if your tank gets silenced, you need to have silence off of them **** near instantly.

If mp is an issue you can slack up on hastes for your melees, but god help you keep it on your tank.

NEVER do anything above a curaga 2, EVER while a mob is still alive. I don't care what Hp the mob is at, you will pull hate with a curaga 3 or 4.

Never cure 4 at the beginning of a fight. Its never fun pulling hate off a whm, and I am sure you do not like being taken down to 200ish hp in a zone full of undead either. So don't do it.

HAVE ALL OF YOUR SPELLS. Nothing is more annoying than pulling aggro and dying and asking for an r2 or 3 only to hear your whm say "its too expensive." You can slack up on some of your single target prot and shell spells FOR NOW, but make sure to get them before you head to endgame. Make sure you have ALL na spells. Some of them you will almost never need, but when you do, not having them WILL mean a wipe. (IE Stona, cursna)

Sorry for the rantish post, I am just tired of leveling another job and wishing I was the whm in the party cause the whm I have is seriously under informed.

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#2 Sep 07 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't normally carry echo drops, because having them is not an acceptable substitute for not pulling hate on mobs that use Silence moves. Exorays? Stand off to the side, damnit. Imps? Quit standing in melee range. Toramas? Quit pulling hate (it's single-target here). (That said, if I'm there to melee - which means it's a 3-man or 4-man LS thing anyway, usually - I'll carry them if we're fighting stuff that's capable of silencing.)

-na spells: If the tank doesn't get hit, hopefully you're paying attention to who's been pulling hate more often. -na them first.

Pullers rarely, if ever, watch the healer's MP... or much of anything else other than noticing that there's not the battle music going. I don't care if you claim that you do. I've never seen you do it. I've seen you run off to grab something when I'm at 150MP (which is only going to be enough MP to heal you if you can blast the **** out of it). I've seen you run off to grab something while two people are weakened (...okay, fine, on goes the melee gear because their damage contribution is going to be roughly what one normal melee's is).

Regarding haste: you can more safely skip a PLD tank than you can a NIN tank. You can more safely skip a SAM or DRG than a DRK or WAR (given equal-delay weapons, the former generate TP faster than the latter anyway). Don't ever bother hasting a RNG unless they're meleeing for TP.

Curaga 3 is acceptable a maximum of once per fight, and only if the melees are being idiots and are all in range of Incinerate. (You can get away with a second usage only if you're actually willing and prepared to tank.)

Cure 4 needs to hold off until at least 20 seconds into the fight, unless the tank WSes before the 20-second mark. (If fights are lasting only 30-40 seconds, waiting for the tank to 'voke a second time isn't viable.)

Expensive spells: we don't have any, other than teleports, anymore (and if you sold those to raise money, you shouldn't be leveling WHM past 35 anyway). Reraise II is the most expensive non-teleport spell, and it's only 40k. "It's too expensive" is an excuse for not having a Noble's Tunic. It's not an excuse for not having a spell.
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#3 Sep 07 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with most WHMs is they don't give a sh*t about the job. I'm in a shell with one of the WORST WHMs I've ever had the pleasure of cleaning up after, but I have a feeling it's not his main job, he just does it for the shell, and thus does not care. I find this is the case with a lot of WHMs leveling up. They're doing it for their LS, for Maat's Cap, for any reason other than actually enjoying the job. I know full well going into a pickup xp party that the healing is probably going to be very sub-par, which is why I load up on basic meds (echoes, eye drops, etc.) and sometimes dual-box an outside mage. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is.

MDenham wrote:
I don't normally carry echo drops, because having them is not an acceptable substitute for not pulling hate on mobs that use Silence moves.


I completely agree there's no reason to be pulling hate or standing in range of silence, but the part I quoted bothers me. Any responsible mage ~always~ has a stack of echo drops in his/her inventory. Even the most responsible of us can get unlucky once in a while. "I'm too responsible to carry echoes" is just as lame as standing in range or pulling hate.

Edited, Sep 7th 2009 9:53pm by Morwyne
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#4 Sep 07 2009 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Also, you getting silenced is not always a result of YOU pulling hate. Another backliner might do it, the frontline's hate might get reset, you might not be able to back away in time because there is other potential aggro in the area (Nyzul!), etc.

**** does happen. I don't know anyone that can claim that (sh)it never happens to them.

I don't always keep echo drops right in my inventory though. Depends what I'm going to head out to do. There's tons of various situational meds out there; I'm not going to carry it all all of the time just because it's situational. Satchel is a good place for it though.
#5 Sep 07 2009 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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The Fynlar of Doom wrote:
Also, you getting silenced is not always a result of YOU pulling hate. Another backliner might do it, the frontline's hate might get reset, you might not be able to back away in time because there is other potential aggro in the area (Nyzul!), etc.
The situation being a normal EXP party, what I said stands for the most part. (If we have issues with another backliner pulling hate in an EXP party, they're getting a clue-by-four upside their head. And then I'm going to stand as far from them as is viable if they're getting me hit with AoEs.)
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#6 Sep 07 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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So when you leveled your whm in the mire, you NEVER EVER pulled hate cause of a bad tank, or was just barely in range of silence. Yeah I doubt that. A responsible mage should always have stuff on them just in case. There is no such thing as a perfect party. **** will **** up. Tanks WILL die. And your mp will be pushed to the limit. Its part of the game. Learning how to deal with it makes you a good mage. Sitting there with your thumb up your *** saying "I never carry echos cause I am too smart, so this must be your fault" is not.


Quote:
Pullers rarely, if ever, watch the healer's MP... or much of anything else other than noticing that there's not the battle music going. I don't care if you claim that you do. I've never seen you do it. I've seen you run off to grab something when I'm at 150MP (which is only going to be enough MP to heal you if you can blast the **** out of it). I've seen you run off to grab something while two people are weakened (...okay, fine, on goes the melee gear because their damage contribution is going to be roughly what one normal melee's is).


Uhh who are you talking to in that quote? Im confused. The only times I have pulled were in merit parties and I don't pull when people are weak in those, and a few times on my sam.
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#7 Sep 08 2009 at 12:03 AM Rating: Default
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lightningcount wrote:
So when you leveled your whm in the mire, you NEVER EVER pulled hate cause of a bad tank, or was just barely in range of silence. Yeah I doubt that.
I did one party in the Mire.

And the leader told me to stand where I got aggroed three times.

I stuck to Bibiki Bay parties for the most part after that, and the **** with Imps being squishy. (I think I've only had three actual EXP parties in the Mire since then, simply because I turn them down as a matter of course unless I'm really desperate for EXP. Haven't pulled hate in any of them.)
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#8 Sep 08 2009 at 5:15 AM Rating: Good
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Morwyne wrote:
The problem with most *insert job here* is they don't give a sh*t about the job. I'm in a shell with one of the WORST WHMs I've ever had the pleasure of cleaning up after, but I have a feeling it's not his main job, he just does it for the shell, and thus does not care. I find this is the case with a lot of WHMs leveling up. They're doing it for their LS, for Maat's Cap, for any reason other than actually enjoying the job. I know full well going into a pickup xp party that the healing is probably going to be very sub-par, which is why I load up on basic meds (echoes, eye drops, etc.) and sometimes dual-box an outside mage. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is.


FTFY ^^

I've been a career whm for over 6 years now and while I certainly have noticed a huge decline in the quality of those lvling the job up now, I've also noticed that holds true for just about every other job out there as well. Rdms that ***** if they have to do anything beyond casting dia/bio, paralyze, and slow on a mob, brds that think they're only job is to pull, pullers that are oblivious to the status of the other pt members, tanks that can't hold hate at all, and melee that can't manage hate. Unfortunately it's a negative side effect that comes from faster exp and shorter fights.

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#9 Sep 08 2009 at 5:38 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
brds that think their only job is to cast 3-4 buffs and melee/go afk for the next 90 seconds


The far more common problem.
#10 Sep 08 2009 at 5:56 AM Rating: Decent
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If you can't make other players in your party play their job to the level you want them to play then your partly at fault. How is this so, you may ask? Some DD's thinks if they do the greatest and latest damage they can dish every swing then they are entitled to every whims they asks for. This is one of the most selfish opinions I think personally.

There are ways to make your party members play their job to the best of their ability with the given situation at hand. It is all about motivation and teamwork. Not you alone. If you can't make them do it then you are not entitled to whine either.

There will always be that 99% of people who will have the same mentality as yours. But there are a few who will rise above these situations, and its not because of the gears or skills, but because the person somehow manage to make everyone in the party do their job to the best they can and that person knows how to adjust to everyone's shortcomings. These are the types that are most remembered and respected.

As far as being a good whm... there is no point of whining and bragging how you can do better because whm itself is a selfless job, that is why whm's are the altruists of the game.

Wisdom trumps common sense in all direction. You might have common sense but if you don't have the wisdom to relate with others then you are just as useless.
#11 Sep 08 2009 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you can't make other players in your party play their job to the level you want them to play then your partly at fault.


Does the saying "you can lead a horse to the water but you can't make it drink" mean anything to you?

Quote:
there is no point of whining and bragging how you can do better because whm itself is a selfless job, that is why whm's are the altruists of the game.


Remember this, all you WHMs out there -- you are the altruists. People treating you unfairly? Too bad, you are meant to take it up the *** and like it. Only DRKs are allowed to complain, but nobody listens to them either.
#12 Sep 08 2009 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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The difference between a bad White Mage and a bad melee is that you can tell when the White Mage is bad because you can measure it in deaths.
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#13 Sep 08 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Phaulken wrote:
The difference between a bad White Mage and a bad melee is that you can tell when the White Mage is bad because you can measure it in deaths.
No.

The difference between a bad WHM, a bad tank, and a bad melee is as follows:

* Bad tank: the standard deviation for the number of deaths is nearly zero, while the number of deaths for any given person is not.
* Bad melee, type A: they have the most deaths when there's a dedicated tank.
* Bad melee, type B: same as if there's a bad tank, in this case because fights are dragging out well beyond the WHM's MP.
* Bad WHM, type A: the WHM is frequently reraising.
* Bad WHM, type B: the tank is frequently being raised.
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#14 Sep 09 2009 at 1:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Any WHM who doesn't take echo drops with them wherever they go - is an idiot. I'm sorry but it's true. You are ultimately responsible for being able to cast and remove this crap from other people. That's not to say others shouldn't bring drops but a WHM should ALWAYS carry Echo drops.

You cannot do your job if you're silenced and echo drops are cheap to buy, freely available and even craftable at a reasonable level if you're THAT broke. I don't want to hear it, you don't have echo drops - especially in a situation where you will potentially be exposed to silence, you're a freaking idiot and a damned nuisance to any group you're a member of.

In fact any caster who goes anywhere without echo drops is an idiot.


I carry, Antidotes, Holy Water, Echo drops, sneak oil and prism powder as well as food and tools if appropriate. Dotes and water are more for other jobs/einherjar but the bare minimum you need as a WHM are echo drops and a stack of cookies.

People bring you along for a reason. That reason is to keep them alive and free of debuffs. You need reraise so you can always get up and raise others and you need echo drops so you can ALWAYS cast.

I cannot believe long term players in the WHM forum are advocating being lazy and cheap.

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#15 Sep 09 2009 at 5:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Thank you Eldelphia. This is one thing that I can't stand. Occasionally I will forget them while playing a melee job and switching to whm...but I store those in my satchel. Even when I don't have them I do. They are less than 10k a stack, very quick to use, and do not cause a moment of inability as other medicines do.

There is NO!!! reason whatsoever not to have them if you are a mage. Forgetting them occasionally is understandable everyone makes mistakes. But simply not having them... thats a whole other story.
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#16 Sep 09 2009 at 5:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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As a Whm, i keep a stack of Echos on me, and a stack in my Satchel, i keep a stack of cookies in Satchel and a stack of Oils and Powders in Satchel, why? Ya never know when you might need them.

As far as Nas go, sometimes things happen, your tank gets silenced while you are casting regen 3 on them, you are not gonna get silence off them Immediatly, things happen, on this note also, if you are a Tank, just like a whm, you shoudl bring a few echos Juat in case, cause if the whm does get silenced, they need to remove from themselves before they can hit you with it.

Your comment on not having to watch your Mp, i disagree with however, Whm Should be watching their Mp, thats a major portion of their job, if you let yourself get to low, its your responsability to let the party know, especially the puller.

Ive been in parties where the puller literally just kept pulling, we were in Gustav Tunnel fighting flies, and the puller woudl literally pull the second the mob died. I was spamming Curaga 2s and divine seal on their recasts, and was riding about 150 Mp out of about 800 the entire party. This is not ok either.

Having all of spells i will definatly second however, there are not many spells which are over 100k that we need anymore, and as you said the ones that are higher up there, are questable.

Mostly those "bad" whms are often just leveling it cause they were told to, but to those of us who take pride in our jobs, it Really stands out when they are doing a bad job.

Just relax a bit, while you are a Good whm, not everyone is, and while some slip up a lot, some just have a bad day. Im sorry to hear about your bad Whm run, but not holding others to your standards will help you not get as Frustrated about it. I know its easier said then done, i mean i'll use Ne spells before the whms in parties on Blm..

Edit, forgotabout Curagas and larger cures. Ive used Curaga 4 in parties before, although its typically towards the end and after Great Bleat had worn off, but so far as you manage your hate, you can do things like this. Its all situational, and if you do little to pull hate during the whole fight, you can be a bit more liberal in the Cure Dept later on. However typically Leave Curagas to after fights, unless you are trying to wake the party up.

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 9:41am by dmhlucky
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#17 Sep 09 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe I'm just tired...or maybe perverted...but I thought the topic was "Bad WHMs in panties"

Anyway, I've partied with my share of Bad WHMs most notably was when I was playing BLU at a Colibri Camp. The WHM kept going afk and not bothering to tell anyone. Fortunately, I was able to keep the tank alive long enough to ask the puller to stop. We waited for the WHM to return and when he did he said he had to leave. At that point, none of us were in the mood to party any longer so we went our separate ways.
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#18 Sep 09 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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CrazyBard wrote:
Maybe I'm just tired...or maybe perverted...but I thought the topic was "Bad WHMs in panties"
I'm thinking we should just start that topic anyway lol.
#19 Sep 09 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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JingWoo wrote:
CrazyBard wrote:
Maybe I'm just tired...or maybe perverted...but I thought the topic was "Bad WHMs in panties"
I'm thinking we should just start that topic anyway lol.
Quick, someone get Seriha.
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#20 Sep 09 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
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Did someone say Seriha?!
#21 Sep 09 2009 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Good WHMs know how to debuff. It might only be 1/3 of parties where you don't have another debuffer, but you should be freaking debuffing the mob in those parties!!!!!! The next time I'm in a party where the WHM only cases cures and haste I'll swear I'll punch them in the face.
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#22 Sep 09 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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SynthiaOfLeviathan wrote:
Good WHMs know how to debuff. It might only be 1/3 of parties where you don't have another debuffer, but you should be freaking debuffing the mob in those parties!!!!!! The next time I'm in a party where the WHM only cases cures and haste I'll swear I'll punch them in the face.
This.
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#23 Sep 09 2009 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I will second this. When I leveled whm 41+ I had a rdm static with me so I was always used to having another caster with me, but there are many times low man where it is just me and a brd (Plus others of course) that I will be using slow silence para.

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#24 Sep 09 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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The debuffing issue always comes up in my Dynamis. You get WHMs ******** at the RDMs because a crow got off Silencega. Helloooooo, WHMs have silence too! And with /SCH you don't even need exceptional enfeebling gear to land it effectively.

We get access to enfeebling spells and some nice enfeebling gear for a purpose. Healer's Briault is not hard to get, NQ staves are dirt cheap nowadays [though most WHMs I've partied with hardly have both a light and dark staff, which is absolutely deplorable!!!!]. If you're not using /SCH by now, suck it up and level it.

At the very least, throw out a Dia II on XP mobs. Most WHMs I see can't even do this. Believe it or not, lowering the mob's defenese = faster kills = faster XP!

Someone once said, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." You're only helping yourself by debuffing if you don't have a RDM in the party.
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#25 Sep 10 2009 at 4:28 AM Rating: Good
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Wow, have Whms gotten really this bad? O.o

I remember when i was leveling whm, even with a Rdm static partner, we split Enfeeble Duty, i took Para and slow, while he took Blind/silence if needed.
I would Dia 2, and he would Bio 2, w/e the tank wanted at the time. (this is going back a few years before ToAU)

I was in a dyna last night, and out of boredom i was throwing Silence, slow and para on as many mobs as i could, just because it can't hurt. 1 paralyzed attack can be the difference from a Dead tank to one thats living, slow can neam the difference of getting a cure off vs being interrupted, and silence helps the Rdms not have to focus on the crows/scorps as much so they can focus on sleeping mobs.

I think i would go crazy if i Didn't do some enfeebling >.>

Its part of a Whm's job, we get the spells and even without /Sch we have pretty decent skill.
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#26 Sep 10 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Morwyne wrote:
The debuffing issue always comes up in my Dynamis. You get WHMs ******** at the RDMs because a crow got off Silencega. Helloooooo, WHMs have silence too! And with /SCH you don't even need exceptional enfeebling gear to land it effectively.


Not a WHM (BLM here, I casts the spells that make the peoples fall down!), but whenever I do that, I end up getting chewed out by the RDMs because their enfeebling skill is SO much better, which means it sticks longer, and they can't silence a mob that I've already silenced, now CAN they? So I just let them take care of it, since they want to so badly.

Then, half the time, they don't notice when it DOES wear off, until it casts a nasty *ga. (can I get an "eyeroll" smiley?)
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