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How is your enmity in endgame?Follow

#27 Sep 04 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Default
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Pulling hate as the Main Healer is much more Dangerous/Chaotic/Detrimental than doing so as a DD.
I don't even know why I have to bring such an obvious concept; but here am I stating the obvious. Tomorrow's not looking good either.


Why is pulling hate as a healer worse? In some fights that may be true because you could be bringing innocent people into AOE range, but in general I don't see why you think that is so obvious. A DD takes hate and gets hurt, somebody needs to cure them and expend MP and build enmity in the process, not to mention waste valuable time doing so. A DD dies or is unable to perform to his maximum potential and your entire damage output drops and the fight takes longer, meaning an even greater potential to pull hate or run low on MP or to have the NM pull off that devastating move you've been hoping to avoid. If I die on WHM during a fight, I RR and keep doing my job; I don't need 1000 max MP to perform my duties. A DD dies and he's worthless for at least 5 minutes. When your DD's are all taking damage, which again is far more likely than you doing it, that is when things can really get hairy. Your assumption that your role is somehow more valuable than a DD's is misguided logic. In fact, I have always felt that if anyone dies before I do then I have failed in my duty as a WHM.
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#28 Sep 04 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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eldelphia wrote:
let's face it, in most endgame fights you're going to be sat there /SCH, with a BRD and RDM and maybe a COR. You're not facing MP issues - you're facing hate issues.
[...]
Everyone in this thread is debating this pretty well, it's interesting to read. I have utmost respect for Perg but on this issue I don't think we've ever agreed :)


/agree

And yeah, blinky blinkertons (such as eldelphia and myself) have much more freedom to balance larger amounts of -enmity into their actions, than those who fulltime one AH/carryover set.

EDIT: typos!

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 10:28am by RyaWHM
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#29 Sep 04 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:
It's really not something surprising. The game never works in fractions. Take haste for example. On a big spell like RR, 1% Haste will almost always equal out a second.
On fast spells, it takes huge amounts of haste to lower a second. To reduce a single second on an 8 second recast spell with haste, you need 12% Haste. Anything less will not produce results.
This could be considered a haste "Tier" for that particular spell, if you will.

Rounding hardly qualifies as a tier. This is something totally different, unless it's rounding to the nearest second for cast completion. Which... well, SE has done dumber things, so I should probably just leave it at that. Even if that were the case, the tiers would vary from spell to spell, just like Haste's recast reduction varies from spell to spell. That being the case, the tiers are really almost irrelevant, and any bit of fast cast is equally likely to reduce the cast time for a given spell. It's possible there would be some lulls in the spectrum where 2 points of fast cast will not affect anything except the longest spells like Stoneskin, but that's pretty hard to judge. Personally, I operate under the assumption that every bit of fast cast helps. Can't say the same for enmity down. This is the one and only point I've been trying to make this entire time. Enmity down is immensely important, but is unique in that it's also possible to go way overboard with it and gain no benefit whatsoever, a fact that is often overlooked by WHMs who pile on the enmity down at every opportunity. It's comparable to wearing 40% haste when the cap is 25%.

Drakonite wrote:
This makes no sense at all mathematically speaking. Curaga + OtherSpells will STILL lead to a larger peak in enmity.

Heck, you just demonstrated that aggresive casting will be both more efficient; and also more intense Enmity-wise.

Did you even read what I wrote? "OtherSpells" in this case are preventative spells which reduce your enmity in the long run. You are too short-sighted in your analysis. Look at the long run, that's where the enmity game is played.

One Curaga (even a II or III) and a handful of maintenance spells aren't going to pull hate unless you were extremely negligent in your casting previous to those spells. You can't just look at things on a per-cast basis, and simply respond to each situation as it comes up. If you do, you will most certainly need to pile on the Enmity Down because this is irresponsible casting. There are situations that will come up that will not allow for "responsible" (low-MP, low-enmity) casting because things are happening too fast, so it's important when those situations arrive that you've kept low hate levels up until that point in anticipation of that situation coming up.

These trade-offs are the key to allowing you to get away with lower levels of Enmity Down, and Curagas are an essential piece to that puzzle if 3+ members of your party are taking damage. That's why I see Curaga as being low-enmity, it heals multiple people at once for the same enmity as single-target Cures, giving you more casting time for preventative spells that will help bring your enmity back down again after the Curaga.
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#30 Sep 04 2009 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Enmity down is immensely important, but is unique in that it's also possible to go way overboard with it and gain no benefit whatsoever, a fact that is often overlooked by WHMs who pile on the enmity down at every opportunity. It's comparable to wearing 40% haste when the cap is 25%.


Wrong. No matter the situation, that additional 15% Haste over the cap can't possibly help you, because of the game mechanics. Wearing -40 enmity as opposed to -30 can help you in some situations. You're right, it won't make a difference most of the time; it's more of a safety net.


Edited, Sep 4th 2009 2:26pm by michelobmidgard
#31 Sep 04 2009 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think part of the disconnect could be: Lowman!

- those who don't do lowman stuff may see -50enm as a waste
- those who have done lowman stuff are more likely to appreciate -50

See, in normal events, I would agree that even -20 enmity should be more than enough. But in lowman situations, what's normally a quick fight can easily turn into a very long one.

So, you're much more likely to have people hitting the CE cap, catching up to each other and all that, even if you're the best WHM in the world. Given enough time, it's bound to happen eventually -- even if you're wearing -50 enmity -- so what it does is give you more time before you reach that point. (which can be really helpful...but so can /DRG)

(however, I still say if you're not sacrificing much else, adding -enmity even beyond -30 is just that much more security, even in normal events; it's a good thing)

Anyway, just an idea ... as to where this huge difference of opinion may be coming from. :P

EDIT: colors are fun >.>

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 4:34pm by RyaWHM
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#32 Sep 04 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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Did you even read what I wrote? "OtherSpells" in this case are preventative spells which reduce your enmity in the long run. You are too short-sighted in your analysis. Look at the long run, that's where the enmity game is played.


You should know me better than that by now.

This is very simple mathematics. |A| + |B| > |A| when B ≠ 0.

You're arguing that because Curaga saved you some time (At the Expense of higher Enmity Peaks); you can now cast more stuff that will prevent further need of Enmity-intensive spells.
This is a bit harder to calculate, but the result AFAIK should still end the same.

Why? Because given an infinite time frame and same enmity consumption: the player that finishes his casting first will always have higher Enmity peak than the one that finished last; even if the final enmity results the same.

However; the player that took his time (Lower Enmity peak) is also less efficient (Time-wise); and more prone to safety given a real situation; and also prone to need more spells. You said this yourself.


But what happens when you add both conclusions? Simple, to the exact same thing I said earlier:
Aggresive+Efficient curing can only be done at the expense of Enmity.

All of this nonsense was just to prove with arguments something that should be common knowledge by now.
Here's the comparison of what the 3 forms of healing (Regens/Cures/Curagas) sacrifice/gain when compared to the other two:

Safety = Others safety; MP = MP-Efficiency, Enmity = Your own enmity.

- Regens sacrifice Safety for MP and Enmity.
- Single Cures, sacrifice MP for Safety and Enmity.
- Curagas sacrifice Enmity for MP and Safety.

This isn't rocket science. It's nothing new either. In fact, it was even documented and sticky'd in an incredibly old topic back on 2005; before we even had the numbers/formulas to back it up.



Edited, Sep 4th 2009 3:40pm by Drakonite
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#33 Sep 04 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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(however, I still say if you're not sacrificing much else, adding -enmity even beyond -30 is just that much more security, even in normal events; it's a good thing)


That's just it. I agree with Perg that most of the time, the amount of -enmity that the average WHM is wearing is overkill, but why would you consider something that is going to keep you safe in the event of a dramatic mishap a bad thing?
#34 Sep 04 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I think part of the disconnect could be: Lowman!

- those who don't do lowman stuff may see -50enm as a waste
- those who have done lowman stuff are more likely to appreciate -50


I did Hydra a couple weeks ago with 7 people, just for fun. We had only three WAR/NINs for tanks so no fancy hate tools aside from vokes and plain old damage. I did not wear a single piece of extra enmity-reduction gear other than what I always use, which is probably somewhere between -15 and 20, I don't even know. I had to Benediction partway through and a few times I had to Esuna -> big Curaga to prevent Nerve Gas wipeage. I cured enough that nobody died. Guess how many times I pulled hate? Zero, zilch, nada. I actually thought I would on a few occasions but I never did. So once again, while everyone here theory-craft about how much enmity reduction gear is necessary, my personal experience has shown me that it's _often, but not always_ not very much at all.

Just imagine if I had a NIN/DRK tanking with Yonin and enmity+30 in gear, spamming stun, bind, poison, absorbs, ninjutsu etc. with the occasional Souleater/Last Resort thrown in. I don't think you guys are even aware of how much hate a good tank can generate and how quickly.
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#35 Sep 04 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I did Hydra a couple weeks ago with 7 people [...] I never [pulled hate]

I didn't wanna get too tied up in specifics, although the example is nice I guess.

But, all I meant was, we all seem to agree that longer fights make enmity more likely to matter. Kinda makes sense, you know?

Longer stuff = more room for -enmity to help...

...lowman stuff usually takes longer...

...so, usually, lowman stuff = more room for -enmity to help. :)

But it still REALLY depends on your setup ... some lowman setups on some mobs, could be very shaky.

Others, could be very stable, just longer:
PLD, RDM, SAM, BRD

where the mob is usually done with:
PLD, RDM, SAM, SAM, SAM, BRD

...or whatever. I think you get the idea. I hope. I really hope. >.>

EDIT: It's prolly worth mentioning that the last time I did lowman stuff regularly, was before THF had those certain shared-timer JA's -- so if a minimalist THF/NIN was your tank, you had to be more careful back then...

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 5:33pm by RyaWHM
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#36 Sep 04 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:
Why? Because given an infinite time frame and same enmity consumption: the player that finishes his casting first will always have higher Enmity peak than the one that finished last; even if the final enmity results the same.

However; the player that took his time (Lower Enmity peak) is also less efficient (Time-wise); and more prone to safety given a real situation; and also prone to need more spells. You said this yourself.
The thing is, the player that's taking his time, especially in a situation that requires a substantial number of spells, may have a higher average enmity over the same period of time.

(This obviously requires enough VE to be generated by "let's do all the spells as quickly as possible" to hit 10k before finishing - effectively, the spells that happen after that point are almost hate-free. If you know how to handle a situation like this - or if you're low on CE to begin with and your tank's enmity is mostly CE - this is potentially more valuable than enmity- gear. Smiley: grin)
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#37 Sep 04 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Archfiend MDenham wrote:
The thing is, the player that's taking his time, especially in a situation that requires a substantial number of spells, may have a higher average enmity over the same period of time.


I think I know what you're saying; but the way you worded it is confusing. The final average doesn't change, because you're dealing with the same Enmity on both sides (Will have same average). Only the range changes on this.

I think what you wanted to say is that at some point, the slow casting guy will have more enmity than the guy that already finished. This is actually true.
But the way enmity works; in which only the highest peaks matters (Pulling hate); this particular detail isn't exactly very relevant :3

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#38 Sep 04 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
You're the one that's going overboard with reducing the value -Enmity. I can pull like 5 quotes from this very thread showcasing this. It got to the point where it's almost insulting; even to people like me who runs with very little -Enmity.

Be my guest and pull 5 quotes that show how overboard I've gone. Call me out on that, not on these ridiculous things such as fast cast tiers. I think that as you try to search for those quotes, you'll find that in most cases you'd simply read words into my mouth, such as this:
"Ultimately I think each person should go through this process, and I know you all are probably sick of hearing me say this... but do not equip enmity down except as a last resort."
and replying with:
"Quite the contrary. Having a healthy "Enmity" buffer is a very smart thing to do; it helps you be ready for when sh*t hits the fan."
When the two points are not contrary at all. When I say "don't equip enmity down except as a last resort," I'm not referring to equipping the absolute bare minimum amount to avoid pulling hate. I'm actually referring to the process of evaluating your equipment and casting habits, which was the topic of that entire post. This should've been apparent if you'd actually read it. Said another way: You should first see if there are practical and safe ways to change your casting habits to reduce enmity, and only after exploring every possibility should you resort to Enmity Down. It should be your last ditch effort at keeping safe enmity levels, not your first as most WHM view it. Most WHM if they pull hate during a fight their automatic response is, "I need more Enmity Down!" This is not always the case. This is how it can become a crutch, when people take this point of view.

*Note that I said "safe enmity levels," this is something I could see you skimming over and not really seeing for what it means. Safe enmity levels doesn't mean 5 VE away from pulling hate. It means safe. It means you should be able to react to situations and not be constrained by your enmity.

I reality, I think that our opinions are not very different, Drak. You just seem to think I'm saying some very outrageous things that I'm not saying at all, and do not comprehend the nature of the message I'm trying to convey. Everything you said could've been an addendum to my posts and I would've probably replied "I agree completely!" (well, except the fast cast tier stuff) but you instead decided to challenge me on your own false assumptions, leading to making us both look as fools.

michelobmidgard wrote:
Wrong. No matter the situation, that additional 15% Haste over the cap can't possibly help you, because of the game mechanics. Wearing -40 enmity as opposed to -30 can help you in some situations. You're right, it won't make a difference most of the time; it's more of a safety net.

This would be true in exceptional situations, such as low-manning a mob that hits really hard, or fighting a mob with hate reset moves, or really strange hate mechanics like Tanihwa. In those situations, your safety net often can't be too large. I use Enmity-35 on Long-Bowed Chariot and I love how after a Homing Missiles hits the MNKs, they can pull hate off me again with one weaponskill after 5+ minutes of me casting spells.

However, outside those situations, my analogy stands. If Enmity-30 would result in never pulling hate in a given battle, what good does Enmity-40 do? Now, I understand your conflict, as haste is a fixed target at 25%, while enmity levels required to avoid pulling hate in a battle is a constantly moving target. So in that respect, they are slightly different. Picking the right amount of enmity down is more of a trial-and-error thing. However, the point I was trying to make was that Enmity Down always has a point beyond which it will do nothing for you, except allow you to be more lazy and wasteful in your casting without drawing attention to yourself.

I work in the software development world and there's a metaphor we often refer to which is "lowering the water level." New software development methodologies will often do little to actually improve your ability to write good software. More often what it actually does is lower the "water level," such that any flaws in the process that existed before without being noticed may be visible with the new methodology, giving us the opportunity to correct them and improve our efficiency. In addition to allowing you to safely perform more actions, Enmity Down also increases the water level and conceals problems in your play style. That's why it's a good idea to lower the water level from time to time and see if anything gets exposed. There's nothing wrong with raising it right back up again if you find that the things which pull hate are things which really can't be safely avoided or done another way. However, it's important not to raise the water level as a reflex. It should be a very well-thought-over decision.

Drakonite wrote:
This is very simple mathematics. |A| + |B| > |A| when B ≠ 0.

You're arguing that because Curaga saved you some time (At the Expense of higher Enmity Peaks); you can now cast more stuff that will prevent further need of Enmity-intensive spells.
This is a bit harder to calculate, but the result AFAIK should still end the same.

Why? Because given an infinite time frame and same enmity consumption: the player that finishes his casting first will always have higher Enmity peak than the one that finished last; even if the final enmity results the same.

I'll borrow a page from Michelob on this one: Wrong.

Your assumption is based on a linear set of spells to cast. The whole point of what I was saying about Curaga can only be viewed if you look at the big picture. Let's say everyone gets hit for 250 damage, and you know more damage is coming in a minute or two. If you're doing individual Cure III's, then you'll be lucky to finish by the time the next wave of damage hits, and will be right back where you started spamming more Cures to keep your head above water, wasting MP and generating excessive enmity. If you instead use Curaga II, you will have a slight lull before the next wave of damage. You will be able to use this time to throw up some regens, Auspice, and other preventative spells. Thus, when the next wave of damage hits, your reaction won't need to be as severe as the person using single-target Cures as the regens and such will lower the severity of the situation for you. Thus, on the second wave of damage, you may cast a Curaga instead of Curaga II, while the single-target guy would still be spamming Cure III's and possibly IV's by this point if he gets too far behind.

So the correct version of your statement would be:
Given an infinite time frame, the same rate of enmity consumption, and the same rate of damage to the party, the player that uses Curagas will be sacrificing higher peak enmity on the short term for lower overall enmity on the long term in addition to greater overall MP efficiency.
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#39 Sep 04 2009 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
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Your assumption is based on a linear set of spells to cast.


You didn't even read or quote the whole thing. Read the paragraph after that. It addresses this very point and is part of the conclusion.

Also..

Quote:
Given an infinite time frame, the same rate of enmity consumption, and the same rate of damage to the party, the player that uses Curagas will be sacrificing higher peak enmity on the short term for lower overall enmity on the long term in addition to greater overall MP efficiency.


This is illogical. Unless you missed adding a minimum amount of HP Cured upkeep; there is absolutely no reason for the "Slow" guy to use less efficient spells in the infinite-time frame comparison. The result is that they'd have the same MP efficiency, same average and final Enmity, and the only different variable would be the ranges (Peaks/Lows); in which "Fast guy" will have a much larger range.

And if you're adding the HP cured upkeep (Forcing "Slow" guy to use less efficient spells). Then you just reverted to the exact same thing I've repeated twice already.
You're the one adding arguments my point and you don't even realize it.



A to further elaborate on another point you're missing that has been brought here numerious times: -Enmity has increasing returns.
By the time you reach -50 Enmity; you can start doing some really crazy High-risk/High-reward stuff non-stop.

Why am I bringing this up again? Because this particular detail should be even more important to you more than any other WHM; since you're aiming at a Yagrush. Do you have any idea of the Hate-capabilities of the Divine Veil Enhancement?
By the time you start using Yagrush; you'll start wearing all those pieces you dislike so much. Your Troopers, Novia, Mirror, and maybe even some Raven.
That is; if you want to take full advantage of your Yagrush.



Edited, Sep 5th 2009 2:31am by Drakonite

Edited, Sep 5th 2009 2:34am by Drakonite
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#40 Sep 05 2009 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
Archfiend MDenham wrote:
The thing is, the player that's taking his time, especially in a situation that requires a substantial number of spells, may have a higher average enmity over the same period of time.


I think I know what you're saying; but the way you worded it is confusing. The final average doesn't change, because you're dealing with the same Enmity on both sides (Will have same average). Only the range changes on this.
Not necessarily.

Say you're both dropping spells for 800 VE apiece; one person is casting every 4 seconds, while the other person is casting every 8 seconds.

As long as fewer than 18 spells are cast under these conditions, yes, they both have the same average enmity over the course of this.

However, here's the figures just before #18:

* Fast caster: VE 9520
* Slow caster: VE 5440

The next cast of the spell is worth only 480 VE to the person who's chain-casting because of this - and even more importantly, any casts after that are only going to be worth 240 VE (the amount of VE lost in 4 seconds).

So, let's say that we take a 25-cast situation (1:40 for the fast caster, 3:20 for the slow caster). The fast caster gets 800 * 17 + 480 + 240 * 7 = 15760 total enmity in this span The slow caster gets 800 * 25 = 20000 total enmity.

The fast caster will take 2:46 2/3 to drop back to 0 VE; the slow caster will take 2:21 1/3 (they're at 8480 VE after the 25th cast).

* Fast caster: 15760/(4:26 2/3) = ~59.10 enmity/sec
* Slow caster: 20000/(5:41 1/3) = ~58.59 enmity/sec

...After doing some figuring it turns out that chain-casting in this situation does not ever give a lower enmity/sec during the casting and cooldown time. (If it weren't for that, after the 30th casting, the slow caster is also in the "capped VE" area, the fast caster would pull ahead around the 61st casting in this situation.) However, there is still a distinct difference in average enmity in this time frame.
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#41 Sep 05 2009 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
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Playing around with a few options today.

For dynamis, non boss limbus, einherjar, or any other battlefield environment where the mob will be dead in less than a minute, I go with -13 enmity, +59 mnd, and 10 percent haste. It would be 15 but I use selenian cap for the cure potency.

For long drawn out fights, IE ouryu, Kited Kirin, t3-4 ZNMs, I now use a -30ish setup. (Yigit hat, Healer's Mitts+1, blessed legs and feet, theta sash, tamas+troopers rings)

For zergs...well lets face it, if you pull hate during a zerg then you really need to find a new linkshell.
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#42 Sep 06 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
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lightningcount wrote:
For zergs...well lets face it, if you pull hate during a zerg then you really need to find a new linkshell.
If you pull hate during a zerg, you're WHM/DRK, using a KClub and a ridiculous amount of haste.
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#43 Sep 06 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Lol, yeah doubt that would ever happen to a taru ^^.


Gonna see how the next tinnin goes. On the last one, I started to ride the hate line when Tinnin was around 10-20ish percent. On fights that last that long, I just couldn't keep the mob from looking at me.

One minor thing too. Most of the time DDs are usually /thf so that can sata or TA the tanks. Never seen a DD take hate from anything really unless it was a blu or a BLM.
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#44 Sep 07 2009 at 3:39 AM Rating: Good
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I hate to bring it up but I think 'sh*t is situational' kinda fits here.

If you have a great tank, a BRD/BLM landing double length Elegy, a RDM with good enfeebling skill and related merits in a long fight, life is going to be easier as a WHM you're going to be dealing with less crap over time.

If you have other supporting healers or WHMs in the alliance, life is going to be easier, no one person is going to be pulling hate because a barrage of Cure IIIs are going to be going off every time something happens.

I spend a proportion of my time being the sole WHM at low manned events. I have been involved in a variety of endgame activities and fights. Other events we're standing there with a full alliance with a ton of support. It just depends.

I don't feel I go to extremes with my -ENM, I feel my overall setup is balanced. It gets tweaked when new gear or abilities come out.

There are so many possible setups for the events we all attend - depending on what yours is, will impact hugely on how you gear yourself.

I do agree with Perg that it doesn't hurt to review your gear periodically. I do it a lot as I learn more about my job and have access to new gear.
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#45 Sep 07 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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^ So much this.

That is pretty much the conclusion I have reached since starting this thread. Originally I beleived that the setup my ls uses will generally be around the same thing excluding low mans. So generally I did not have to mess with my enmity setup much. Now... After having capped hate on tinnin for about 3 minutes until I just said ***** it did a cure 4 to die and have hate reset, I started to review my gear. (Literally would be drawn in, smacked, use a cure 5 on tanks, get drawn in again...was like this for about 3-4 minutes.)

Pretty much I was half right. During events where your mobs will be dead in less than a minute, those are the events where you do not have to worry much about hate. Now granted using a cure 4 and the very beginning of a fight is still dumb no matter the fight, but you don't have to worry much about hate for a 5 or 3 at the beginning.

For things like non zergged sky gods...well those I dont have to worry cause every DD goes /thf and does SATA Gekko or steele cylone.

For things like kited kirin or t4 ZNM, I go with -30ish enmity.

SO yeah eldelphia hit it perfectly its all situational.
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#46 Sep 08 2009 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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Right!

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 2:10am by Phaulken
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#47 Sep 12 2009 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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To be honest, since im not much of an endgame WHM (besides Dynamis and Limbus) I've never really concerned myself overtly with -enmity. The equipment I use is mostly Blessed/Noble's combo. I do use the relic hat, but more for the Resist Silence than the enmity since it stacks with the traits gained from Scholar sub. So useful in fact, that I found a considerable decrease in my need for Echo drops, though naturally I always keep a stack for contingencies.

My entire equipment setup comes to -24 enmity (enmity items listed below). Perhaps not the best for taking on powerful HNMs or long drawn-out fights, but I rarely take hate and I consider that to be a good sign im on the right track.

Staff Strap		-2 
Cleric's Cap		-4 
Blessed Mitts		-3 
Blessed Trousers	-5 
Blessed Pumps		-4 
Penitent's Rope		-3 
Tamas Ring		-3

As you can see I don't really go overboard on anything besides MND. I do have a Walahra Turban, but I almost never use it except for soloing (For the Haste). During Lightsday/weather I swap out the Penitent's Rope for a Korin Obi, so you can ditch the bonus from that during those times, or whenever I have a SCH casting Aurorastorm on me.

Edited, Sep 12th 2009 4:51am by Crystan
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#48 Sep 12 2009 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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29,628 posts
Skimming through this thread again...

Quote:
Enmity down itself is a useless stat until you need it, and by the time you need it, it's far too late to equip it.


I really don't understand this comment. That's like saying enmity+ is useless for tanks until they lose hate...

It's called a preventative measure. You wear it early so buildup is lessened. You're not supposed to put that stuff on only after you've already drawn hate.
#49 Sep 12 2009 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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Thats kind of like putting a condom on after you have finished...
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#50 Sep 14 2009 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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The Fynlar of Doom wrote:
Skimming through this thread again...

Quote:
Enmity down itself is a useless stat until you need it, and by the time you need it, it's far too late to equip it.


I really don't understand this comment. That's like saying enmity+ is useless for tanks until they lose hate...

It's called a preventative measure. You wear it early so buildup is lessened. You're not supposed to put that stuff on only after you've already drawn hate.

You pretty much explained the second half of the comment, "by the time you need it, it's far too late to equip it." The first part of the quote alludes to the fact that enmity down itself does nothing to benefit your spells. It doesn't make them cost less MP, cast faster, last longer, or be more potent. This creates an inherent conflict:

1. The nature of enmity down is such that you won't know you don't have enough until it's too late to equip more. This leads to the tendency to equip slightly more than is necessary, just to give yourself a safe margin. (There are many stats like this; Adding accuracy when you're already at 95% hit rate is pointless.)

2. If you take this to the extreme and equip way too much enmity down, you will never know it. There is no way to discover your current enmity level, or how much more enmity the tank has than you. At the end of a fight, you may have been one cast short of pulling hate, or you may have had one tenth as much as the tank. (In the analogy to accuracy, folks have parsed and calculated and determined the amount of accuracy needed for most different events, but you simply cannot do this with enmity down as it's so circumstantial.)

This is what makes the nature of enmity down so confusing, that was the point of my comment.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 2:17pm by Pergatory
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#51 Sep 14 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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29,628 posts
It's a trial and error thing. If you do a certain fight often enough and you've noticed that you tend to rip hate a lot against a certain mob uncontrollably, you'll know before you fight it again that your enmity setup might need tweaking. Same goes for tanks. If your routine doesn't change that much between iterations of a fight, it's not hard to make educated guesses at your enmity level is, or will be.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 7:25pm by Fynlar
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