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How is your enmity in endgame?Follow

#1 Aug 30 2009 at 12:33 AM Rating: Decent
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After reading several posts by many whms on alla and BG, I have to ask... How do you handle your enmity?

To clarify, I am a whm who stacks on assloads of mnd (+59 with my current setup), and is not afraid to use a cure 4 here and there. Which btw does exactly 500, weather and day effects not whithstanding of course. Generally I am casting cure 3, and cure 5, but occasionally I will cast a cure 4 to save a taru blm, or a DD who is in orange. Generally, I do not take hate.

My gear set is Templar mace+Muse Tariqu, Selenian Hat, (Mnd+6 cure potency +3, fast cast+) Aristocrats Coat, Ajari bead necklace, Insomnia + magnetic earrings, Star ring + tamas. Blessed Hands legs and feet. (Clerics duckbills for cure 5 and 4) Steppe rope (taru JSE belt level 70) and Rainbow Cape. Ammo is holy ampula, and I have 4 enimity down merits.

That is not a large amount of enmity reduction... However with this gear setup, I do not pull much hate at all. Usually I am curing many people in my alliance, curing our tanks, and using cure 4s on BLMs who take a hit. I see posts here and there of whms who claim that they frequently pull hate, or that they see their whms go down often.

I do not mean to step on anyone's toes or piss in anyone's cherios, but are these whms using 4 at the beginning of a fight, or just flat out overcuring everyone to steal this kind of hate?

I post my original question to all of you, but first lemme explain how I handle my hate, and you guys tell me if you do it differently. Generally I stick to cure 3s and 5s at the beginning of the fight. If I see a melee or blm stupidly cast a high tierd nuke, or unleash some super awesome omg wtf WS without Trick attack at the beginning of a fight, I usually wait till they are low on health and cast a 5 on them. If they die, its their fault for not waiting till the tank has hate. I Stick to 3s, which do 248 with my gear setup, at the beginning of a fight with a few 5s thrown in for when the tank eats a tp move. After hate has been established, IE when you don't see your melees taking hate from their weapon skills or blms taking hate from their overpowered nukes, I will cast cure 4 and some agas. If its a fight with frequent low powered, like 100-200 aoes, I will stay in range and cast cura while in Affaltus Misery mode.

So again I have to ask, how do you handle your enmity?

Btw if this came off as arrogant I am sorry, I am generally curious as to how other people handle their enmity in endgame.
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#2 Aug 30 2009 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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At the moment the only endgame I do with any frequency is einherjar, salvage, and dynamis. The first and the last things die too quick for enmity to be a real concern.

In salvage, the only time I can think of that I take hate on whm is ZR boss, and even then at best its a quick glance at me after I cure up discoid damage. I have SCH75 that I usually take to salvage and accession stoneskin and the like takes hate a lot more than my WHM ever does. Regen 3, cure 3, occasional penury cure V.

Back when I did sky I dont remember ever really taking hate sans like, kited kirins which took foreverrrr. Other than that, iono its been awhile.


Noteworthy gear I have is errant cape, troopers ring, novia earring, storm earring (salvage) and heavens earring +1 (I augmented it and got MP+14, score)


On a side note I'm mildly jealous of hardcore whms that made the cure pot MKD hat. Although I made it a hexa piece and I'm very pleased being able to bash things in the head with a blunt object with such deadly accuracy.
#3eldelphia, Posted: Aug 30 2009 at 4:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) -Enmity caps at -50. See http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity+testing! for more details.
#4 Aug 30 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In salvage, the only time I can think of that I take hate on whm is ZR boss, and even then at best its a quick glance at me after I cure up discoid damage. I have SCH75 that I usually take to salvage and accession stoneskin and the like takes hate a lot more than my WHM ever does. Regen 3, cure 3, occasional penury cure V.


If you get enough people to go to that zone, I recommend going /smn and keeping carby out to help with discoid damage. With 8 people + wyvern and carby we all take about 200. Great place to use Cura.


Quote:
So -33 for my normal cures -36 for my cure Vs. Cure V's land with +46 MND with 30% Cure Potency I don't have -ENM merits. Yes, I know... but I want to level PLD :D My Cure IV hits around 512 - 514. I never have any issues with hate in the events I do or have done. These include Kirin, Ouryu, Einherjar, Dynamis, HNM etc.

I could improve my Cure V by using my prism or a +5 MND cape, unlikely to do the latter unless I get an Ixion Cape for my BLM but it hits 899 ish I think.

I use pretty much everything we have constantly. I don't have to worry about Cure IV or Curagas on the whole, although I barely ever use more than Curaga II.


Ok so about double my enmity down XD. Pretty sure I already know the answer, but for protracted fights, like certain ZNMs, how does your enmity fair? IE last night we did Armed Gears. We usually straight tank him at one of the teleporter pads so our BLMs and RNGs can zone if they steal hate from our PLD. I noticed that I took hate at one point. It hit me for about 500 then went back to the tank. THis is about normal for me. Tank 4ed me and grabbed some extra enmity for himself. Anyone else have similar experiences like this?
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#5 Aug 30 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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We usually go with 6-7 and the RDM goes /blu, I cura and they healing breath and all is good but if for some reason I do need to pop a curaga I get smacked. No real problems with it though.
#6 Aug 30 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
On a side note I'm mildly jealous of hardcore whms that made the cure pot MKD hat. Although I made it a hexa piece and I'm very pleased being able to bash things in the head with a blunt object with such deadly accuracy.


Same. Since I denied myself the treat of Mjollnir by changing to relic horn, I gave myself a melee WHM MKE hat. I may change it later on someday, but for now, its fun fun fun!
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#7 Sep 01 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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I run with about -25 to -30 enmity on average (merits included), and laugh my head off at people who roll with Novia Earrings, Trooper Rings, and Raven gear in their normal casting set. Let me explain why.

Enmity down itself is a useless stat until you need it, and by the time you need it, it's far too late to equip it. I think this is the crux of why there is such a wide gap in enmity down equipment in different WHMs. Thus, I've always taken a very pragmatic approach: I don't equip it and see what happens. If I need the extra enmity down, it should be painfully evident; while if I have extra enmity down that I don't need, I'd never know it. Therefore it's possible to achieve balance by approaching from only one direction and not the other.

As I refined my equipment using the above approach, I started out where we all likely started out: Wearing Zenith gear and Electrum Rings and pulling hate whenever I looked at the mob wrong. However, through slowly improving my equipment and trying not to move too quickly I've settled on 25 as about the right amount of enmity down. I achieved about 20 very easily without any compromise, but this was not quite enough for me. Ultimately, I decided to ditch the MND cape and pick up Errant Cape, and my enmity problems disappeared entirely at the cost of only 5 MND, and I gained some MP in the process.

New options have since become available, such as Novia, Troopers, etc. As each piece comes out, I evaluate what I stand to gain by trading one enmity down piece (my Errant Cape) for another. (Remember, I've already determined I don't need more enmity down, so picking up one of these items would just let me shuffle stats around between slots.) Thusfar, nothing has outweighed the Errant Cape in terms of utility. I could get my 5 MND cape back by using Novia, but it would cost me either 5 Conserve MP or 2 Fast Cast. 5 MND would be spiffy and all, but those other two are much more useful and, more importantly, aren't boosted at all by the more all-purpose equipment we get such as Blessed gear which is already giving me moderate enmity down boost. If I abandon the Conserve MP or Fast Cast from those earrings, there are very few other places to get it from. 5 MND on the other hand, who cares? I don't think I have a single macro swap that puts me under 130 MND, so I'm pretty sure that's covered. Same with Trooper Ring; I could pick another cape if I had that on, but what do I gain? Trading Errant Cape & Star Ring to Ixion Cape & Troopers Ring is about the best compromise I can find and it gives me a net bonus of: Enmity-1 HP-20 MP-30 MND+5. It's not a terrible trade, but I feel like the MND & Enmity bases are covered pretty well already so I stuck with HP & MP which, while limited in purpose, you really can't have "too much" of.

Ultimately I think each person should go through this process, and I know you all are probably sick of hearing me say this... but do not equip enmity down except as a last resort. 90% of the WHMs I see out there are using more enmity down than they need and tremble at the mere thought of not using that Novia. In most situations where a WHM would pull hate, there are many simple ways it could've been avoided and enmity down gear is only one of them.

Further, I think it's important to re-evaluate your enmity down from time to time. A white mage's play style is constantly in evolution, and as our play style evolves, we may generate less enmity in our actions through smarter casting. This can reduce the enmity burden, but as I pointed out above, there's no indicators to having too much enmity down. You may well never know it. Therefore from time to time it's important to take off some enmity down gear just for the sake of seeing whether you really needed it in the first place.
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#8 Sep 01 2009 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Considering that I don't do endgame at present, Blessed hands/legs/feet + AF head is enough Enmity- (13) for me right now.

That said, I have no problems with pulling hate on occasion (say, once every 8-10 fights).

(Oh, and the one thing that I'm not absolutely certain about - and couldn't find any information one way or the other on - is that I believe that Enmity+/- gear works "backwards" for enmity losses due to being hit and such. That is, Enmity- gear increases the amount of enmity lost when hit.)
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#9 Sep 01 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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The need for -enmity gear is largely based on your situation. There are many situations where you won't need any -enmity gear, barring any "oh sh*t" situations. On the other hand you could find yourself in a situation (low-man HNM with one tank and you being the only healer for example) where you may end up taking hate with -50 enmity depending on what happens during the fight.

I tend to load up on -enmity gear as more of a safety net; a means to survive when things don't go as planned. Most of the gear that you'll be wearing has a decent chunk of -enmity on it to begin with (I'm looking at you, Blessed), but I choose to wear Novia Earring, Goliard Chapeau, Mahatma Cape, White Tathlum, and situationally even Theta Sash for Cures/Benediction. Could I swap out some of those pieces for +MND gear? Sure could. Is it going to make that much of a difference? Not really. I can say, though, that I can count only one time that I took hate wearing all that -enmity gear.
#10 Sep 01 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
(Oh, and the one thing that I'm not absolutely certain about - and couldn't find any information one way or the other on - is that I believe that Enmity+/- gear works "backwards" for enmity losses due to being hit and such. That is, Enmity- gear increases the amount of enmity lost when hit.)


I think this page is what you're looking for:
http://kanican.livejournal.com/31613.html

Kanican wrote:
* (+/-) Enmity Enhancements do not affect Cumulative Enmity (CE) lost.


-----

And regarding "excess -enmity" during cure spells, the only real excess is -51 and beyond...

Maybe some players know for sure who they're gonna be dealing with, but I don't ... I might volunteer to help a friend (and four strangers) with a fight ... only to have loose hate and poor damage mitigation. I dunno how it'll be, I dunno what it'll be, but I like to know that my normal set is as high on -enmity as it can be (without sacrificing good deals on other stats).

Maybe this's the part where everyone tells me to "quit playing with idiots" or whatever, but I like knowing my chance of pulling hate in even the worst situations ... is minimized!

(that's just me though) :P

EDIT: I use -37 for all cures, last I checked

Edited, Sep 1st 2009 6:21pm by RyaWHM
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#11 Sep 01 2009 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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My -Enmity varies depending on what I'm casting.

For Cure III and IV: It's at -23 (Blessed Hands/Pants, Tamas, Hedge, Novia, Merits)
For Cure V, It's at -16

This difference is essentially macroing my Novia out for Cure V (Replaced by Mamool Ja Earring).

I also sometimes manually equip in my Mirror tiara during Curagas; for -30 Enmity.

Quote:
I could get my 5 MND cape back by using Novia, but it would cost me either 5 Conserve MP or 2 Fast Cast. 5 MND would be spiffy and all, but those other two are much more usefu


Fast cast for cures has no benefit if you already have Merits + Cure Clogs.
And personally; I'd take 5MND over 5CMP in a heartbeat. Mostly for Cure V tho.

Quote:
but do not equip enmity down except as a last resort.


Quite the contrary. Having a healthy "Enmity" buffer is a very smart thing to do; it helps you be ready for when sh*t hits the fan.
You should know this by now. Enmity troubles cannot be immediately fixed by pressing a Macro. They can only be prevented; either by Playstyle, -Enmity, or both.

Because of this: I see absolutely no reason why you'd want to be riding the hate line. Or even advising people to do so.
This is just going to be a disaster when the situation calls in for more aggressive Curing.

Plus; having more -Enmity means you can be even more efficient with your actions. It let's you use Cure IV/Curaga/Flash more freely.
Taking advantage of this will net a much larger boon to efficiency than stuff like CMP.

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#12 Sep 01 2009 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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I use about -30~ish enmity on my normal curing set and that seems to work just fine for almost every HNM and endgame event.
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#13 Sep 02 2009 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
Fast cast for cures has no benefit if you already have Merits + Cure Clogs.

I'm pretty sure you won't be reaching the fast cast cap on Cures, even with full merits, Light Arts, and Cure Clogs.

Drakonite wrote:
Quite the contrary. Having a healthy "Enmity" buffer is a very smart thing to do; it helps you be ready for when sh*t hits the fan.
You should know this by now. Enmity troubles cannot be immediately fixed by pressing a Macro. They can only be prevented; either by Playstyle, -Enmity, or both.

I'm not advocating riding the hate line, I'm advocating not wearing -40 enmity when there's no reason whatsoever to have more than -30 in most cases (again, sh*t is situational, there are cases where even -50 would be prudent but it's very rare). I play with -25 on most spells and do not "ride the hate line" by any means.

Drakonite wrote:
Plus; having more -Enmity means you can be even more efficient with your actions. It let's you use Cure IV/Curaga/Flash more freely.
Taking advantage of this will net a much larger boon to efficiency than stuff like CMP.

You've got it backwards, Drak. Casting which is more efficient, in most cases, is the same thing as casting which generates less enmity. A single Curaga II generates less enmity and uses less MP than casting Cure III on each player one by one as your enmity/MP allows you. A Regen II will generate FAR less enmity and use far less MP than a Cure III. A Flash will generate an enmity spike, but that's really the only exception, and enmity-25 is plenty for tossing out Flashes at every convenience. Efficient casting and low-hate casting almost always go hand-in-hand. Training yourself to generate less enmity serves a dual purpose in reducing your MP consumption. This is even further enhanced by the extra stats you get for giving up enmity down that you never know whether you use or not until you try playing without it. That's my whole point. So many WHMs simply pile up the enmity down without a second thought to what they are giving up for it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Enmity Down is a crutch. A certain amount is unavoidable. A little beyond that really helps. Anything beyond that is 100% completely and utterly useless, unlike most stats, and fosters poor casting habits. There are good uses for enmity down, and bad uses, that's the only point I'm trying to make. I'm sick of the point of view that there's no such thing as too much enmity down. There absolutely is.
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#14 Sep 02 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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But what if there's a new ammo piece next month with -25 enmity on it... if you had it, you would specifically not use it? O.o I'm just trying to understand...

I don't really play differently now than I did with -10 enmity, I'm just as conservative/careful (regens, light cures where possible, etc). So if you play as though you're wearing none, regardless of how much you're actually wearing, how is it a "crutch" in that case?

I understand it's not a good idea to start endgame in -50, and just bomb all over, and learn your limits that way, that's dumb...

but surely there's a difference in whether or not you're allowing -50 to change your playstyle, when you could ignore it, like the parachute you'll never open (just feels great knowing it's there)
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#15 Sep 02 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Default
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Pergatory wrote:
I'm pretty sure you won't be reaching the fast cast cap on Cures, even with full merits, Light Arts, and Cure Clogs.


From the testing on the other thread; Merits + Cure Clogs alone is enough to get our slowest cure (Cure V) to the current best Cast time. The "Tiers" where supposedly at 15% and 35%.

This is easy enough to prove and replicate. Go cast Cure V without Light arts, and compare it with while on Light Arts. If you have full Merits + Cure Clogs; there will be no difference whatsoever.



Pergatory wrote:
I'm not advocating riding the hate line, I'm advocating not wearing -40 enmity when there's no reason whatsoever to have more than -30 in most cases (again, sh*t is situational, there are cases where even -50 would be prudent but it's very rare). I play with -25 on most spells and do not "ride the hate line" by any means.


This is not what you stated, you stated that:

Pergatory wrote:
but do not equip enmity down except as a last resort. 90% of the WHMs I see out there are using more enmity down than they need


I don't know you; but I don't see 90% of the WHM population running around in -40 Enmity. Heck, I'd be lucky if I see them break 20.

In fact; I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the WHM population do not have a -Enmity set anywhere near -40.

Quote:
You've got it backwards, Drak. Casting which is more efficient, in most cases, is the same thing as casting which generates less enmity. A single Curaga II generates less enmity and uses less MP than casting Cure III on each player one by one as your enmity/MP allows you.


Of all things efficient; you picked the one thing that goes against the rule. Curaga will always be more MP efficient than both Regen and Single Cures; but it will also always be more Enmity Intensive.

Comparing it cure-by-cure enmity-wise; it will be the "Same". The difference is that you cannot possible cure III that amount in the same time frame than it takes to Curaga II.
The result is that you get a much much higher peak in Enmity during Curaga II than by casting 6 individual Cure III's. This is a fact.

Quote:
That's my whole point. So many WHMs simply pile up the enmity down without a second thought to what they are giving up for it.


Which again; I don't see this "Piling on -Enmity" WHM's that you talk about. The only one I remember is some taru on the KI forums that really went overboard with it.

In fact; if you read this thread; no one here has the amount you're arguing against. The highest set so far is -37.

Quote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Enmity Down is a crutch. A certain amount is unavoidable. A little beyond that really helps. Anything beyond that is 100% completely and utterly useless, unlike most stats, and fosters poor casting habits.


I'm pretty sure that poor amounts of -Enmity lead to worse casting habits (Avoiding Cure IV/Curagas/Flash) than having an oversizes -Enmity pack. Specially since the former is a lot more common.



Edited, Sep 2nd 2009 5:05pm by Drakonite
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#16 Sep 02 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with Perg etc. etc.... I was hoping this wouldn't devolve into the same old argument, but here we are nonetheless. I've basically given up on trying to convince WHMs to give up their security blanket of gearing for enmity down because it's something rather intangible which can't be directly proven except with personal experience. So here's my person experience: I have never geared specifically for enmity reduction as a WHM; I am happy with the amount I get naturally from wearing the gear I would be wearing anyways. I don't understand where WHM enmity problems come from, I am almost always right smack at the bottom of the hate list on any given mob. The only times that is not true is in extraordinary cases where I'm sure an extra 20% less enmity wouldn't save me anyways, or when everyone else has already died, in which case I'm boned anyways.

Incidentally, this is why I am strongly of the opinion that Novia earrings should go to heavy DDs way before the WHM puts one on, but good luck trying to convince your average Joe Samurai to put on "mage gear", even if ultimately it would result in them doing more damage.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2009 4:27pm by Filian
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#17 Sep 02 2009 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Incidentally, this is why I am strongly of the opinion that Novia earrings should go to heavy DDs way before the WHM puts one on, but good luck trying to convince your average Joe Samurai to put on "mage gear", even if ultimately it would result in them doing more damage.


Yeah, it's a good idea, but not many people would be for it. As such, WHMs should just take some solace in the fact that not everyone and their uncle wants a Novia, because that's less competition to deal with.

The common DD mindset is that if you DON'T rip hate, you're inadequate. >_> Just ask anyone who busts out a huge hit and promptly dies afterward; the common reaction will be "it was worth it" or "I REGRET NOTHING", etc. etc.

Also if we're talking about top-tier LS/gameplay against bigger mobs, sometimes the tank(s) will be set up so well that they will NOT have hate taken off of them no matter how hard everyone else tries, because the tank(s) are maintaining the hate ceiling. Hate might start to bounce, but only in a brief ping-pong fashion (any fight that goes on for long enough will reach this point no matter what). Unless of course, they die somehow or get their hate reset.
#18 Sep 02 2009 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Filian wrote:
I've basically given up on trying to convince WHMs to give up their security blanket of gearing for enmity down because it's something rather intangible.


That's because you're arguing against an enemy that doesn't exist. There's no one here that likes "Piling" on -Enmity so much that they'd give up useful stats for it.

I'm just being practical. Your average new WHM will most likely take full advantage of the extra -Enmity; both because they'd be running with low amounts (9~14); and will probably not have a good playstyle because of it.
The scenario of a WHM running in -40 or more Enmity is just so rare and unlikely like to be treating it like a common flaw - It's not.

And the only DD that can really make use of Novia are RNG's, because their earring choices are bad for the most part. That, or people wanting to solo with an Evasion build. The rest are better off with their DD earrings.

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#19 Sep 03 2009 at 12:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I think a nice way to look at it is...

-Do I have all my +curepot? Yes!
-Do I have enough +haste to break my desired cure recast tiers? Yes!
-Do I have enough MND for that next Furen-found whole-number cured-amount? Yes!
-Am I missing any nice chunks of frills like fastcast or conserveMP? Nope!

...yay! Now where can I fit more -enmity, for kicks...let's see...

...if I put this here, and that there...

...now I have another -10 enmity, and I only lost 2 MND! Yay some more!

-Still getting that Furen-number I wanted with 2 less mind? Yep!
-Leaning over on my additional -10 enmity now that I know it's there? Nope!
-Hiding from hate 1min longer in weird tank-just-DC'd situations? Hope so! :D


As long as you're cramming all your other stats into the picture, if you're not making any sacrifices...and you don't change the way you play... it's just one more fine-tuning you can do, slight improvement...

#1: 150mnd, 26%haste, 40%curepot, -25enmity Cures
#2: 149mnd, 26%haste, 40%curepot, -50enmity Cures

Hard for me to believe anyone would choose #1! It's a silly example, but all I'm saying is, be SMART about what you're giving up, in order to increase your -enmity and you'll be fine! :)
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#20 Sep 03 2009 at 6:10 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
And the only DD that can really make use of Novia are RNG's, because their earring choices are bad for the most part. That, or people wanting to solo with an Evasion build. The rest are better off with their DD earrings.


Hate to say it, but that just proves how little you're grasping the flow of enmity in any given HNM fight. Here are some facts you might want to consider:

-DD jobs who are doing their job are always much (much much) closer to pulling hate than the WHM is
-DD jobs can and will die just as fast as a WHM will if they pull hate
-A _smart_ DD will be cognizant of the hate threshold and often times has to hold back to prevent pulling hate
-A dead DD does no damage

So what good is your DD earring if you have to hold back to not die anyways? To take it even further, what good is your DD earring if you're dead? Any DD who has the potential to pull hate in any given fight could wear a Novia earring and actually do _more_ damage in the long run. The only difference is that we as WHMs are schooled to think in terms of what is best for the group. That guy in your LS who only levels DD jobs? He only cares about big numbers and pulling hate makes him feel justified.
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#21 Sep 03 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:
From the testing on the other thread; Merits + Cure Clogs alone is enough to get our slowest cure (Cure V) to the current best Cast time. The "Tiers" where supposedly at 15% and 35%.

I was afraid you'd bring up that thread. That testing was literally done by a person holding a stopwatch. I'm sorry but I don't buy into it. I don't believe in cast time tiers. Even if someone can prove that the tiers exist with some kind of scientific timing machine, I'd sooner believe that it's an artifact of lag translating casting start/stop times from the server to the client, than believe that SE for some reason restricted cast time bonuses to a couple of very specific values.

Drakonite wrote:
Of all things efficient; you picked the one thing that goes against the rule. Curaga will always be more MP efficient than both Regen and Single Cures; but it will also always be more Enmity Intensive.

Comparing it cure-by-cure enmity-wise; it will be the "Same". The difference is that you cannot possible cure III that amount in the same time frame than it takes to Curaga II.
The result is that you get a much much higher peak in Enmity during Curaga II than by casting 6 individual Cure III's. This is a fact.

On paper your logic is flawless, but I've found in practice that Curaga can be a very useful tool for reducing enmity. It seems counter-intuitive, because it does indeed produce a hate spike right when you cast it, but that spike dies down very quickly and you're left with everyone at full HP for a good while. This results in a very large downtime for the WHM, in which you can cast things like Regens, work on your Haste cycle, etc. Curaga quite often gives you a large window for casting maintenance spells. So looking at it on paper, yes Curaga is the same enmity as individual Cures but spikes them all together in one cast; but in reality, Curaga lets you manage your casting much more effectively which can lead to an overall reduction in enmity. Thus your enmity stays lower, and when you need to Curaga again you have the headroom to do so, not due to enmity down but due to your smart casting. This comes full circle to my point that smart casting reduces MP consumption and enmity.

Drakonite wrote:
Pergatory wrote:
but do not equip enmity down except as a last resort. 90% of the WHMs I see out there are using more enmity down than they need


I don't know you; but I don't see 90% of the WHM population running around in -40 Enmity. Heck, I'd be lucky if I see them break 20.

I should clarify, 90% of the endgame WHM that I see are running around in -40 enmity. When I'm running around Whitegate it's a totally different story. Maybe Asura is worse than other servers at this... but it's become one of my biggest pet peeves because it's so rampant in Asura endgame for WHMs to be sporting Novia and Troopers and Errant Cape and sometimes even some Raven gear on top of that! It's absurd! That's why every time one of these threads comes up, I speak out against blindly piling on the enmity down, and every time folks like you speak up saying "BUT ENMITY DOWN IS IMPORTANT!" Guess what dude, I'm not saying it isn't... you're arguing against a straw man.

Drakonite wrote:
I'm pretty sure that poor amounts of -Enmity lead to worse casting habits (Avoiding Cure IV/Curagas/Flash) than having an oversizes -Enmity pack. Specially since the former is a lot more common.

I'd agree with you that a dead WHM fosters worse casting habits than one with too much enmity down. That's completely beside the point, and I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. Again, you are completely side-tracking the points I'm trying to make and making it sound like I'm arguing to just roll with no enmity down at all. I'm saying nothing of the sort, respectfully get your head out of your arse and read my original thread until you realize the point I'm trying to convey has nothing to do with putting yourself in harm's way and everything to do with fine tuning your equipment to your play style so that you don't have a stat you aren't using. Again, you are just building up straw men here so you can beat me over the head with your "enmity down is important" stick. I run with about -25 enmity, this seems to be about the amount you are arguing for (if slightly lower but not much), so why do you keep disagreeing with what I'm saying? What exactly is your point of contention? Do you not think people should exercise pragmatism in choosing their level of enmity down? Do you think they should just grab a bunch of enmity down, toss it on, and assume it's saving their lives? Because if not, why are you arguing against me?

Filian wrote:
Incidentally, this is why I am strongly of the opinion that Novia earrings should go to heavy DDs way before the WHM puts one on, but good luck trying to convince your average Joe Samurai to put on "mage gear", even if ultimately it would result in them doing more damage.

I agree completely, DDs pull hate 10 times more often than WHM. I use Novia for weaponskills on DRK (TP in Abyssal+Brutal, swap out Brutal for the WS). I don't know any other DDs that do this, 'tis a shame, they might live longer.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 8:44am by Pergatory
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#22 Sep 03 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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I have -30 in my normal set, and - 34 for Curaga III and IV, -23 for Cure V. I use high tier Curagas pretty frequently, I always find myself in a situation where a Curaga III is the most efficient spell to use and the best spell to save the group. Without the -enmity I have on, I'm positive I would be dead in a ton of events. The other WHMs in my shell usually get hate first and get killed first.

In 99% of situations, it may not matter because tanks are so good at holding hate (the good ones anyway). But there are the other situations like an overpull in dynamis, and you're curing the Bard, then the enemy turns to you, or curing BLMs who are sleeping the mass link, or curing a DD who is soloing an enemy, basically any situation where there is no tank. Or hell, even if you have a sh*tty PLD/NIN who doesn't use a max HP gear swap set for Cure IV to get hate, you can pull hate extremely quickly.

Anyone who is talking down -enmity plays in a near flawless situation where hate is locked down always and there is never a mistake. For the rest of us where there are mistakes, and it's usually the WHM's sole responsibility to correct them, -enmity is great.

I can understand not using Novia, it's a bit overkill and our earring slots have other good options to use. Even still, if I had it I would use it on Curaga III and IV happily. As far as Trooper's, I don't wear it anymore, but I don't understand anyone who thinks it's a bad ring. It's one of the only rings in the game that will do something for every WHM spell, lower your enmity on all your Hastes, Cures, everything. MND rings only really work on 5 spells: Stoneskin, Silence, Paralyze, Slow and Cure V. Your only other choice is an MP ring that will last you for one spell, then it's sitting there useless. Personally, I wear Omega/Tamas but I wouldn't talk sh*t on anyone who uses Trooper's as long as they macro in a MND ring on those 5 spells, and stoneskin is almost surely capped anyway, so it's really just 4.

[EDIT]Forgot Banish and Holy

Also, Rya, you're cracking me up with your green font lol. Grats on Guru. I've seen you do a lot of amazing tests.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 2:50pm by JingWoo
#23 Sep 03 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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JingWoo wrote:
Anyone who is talking down -enmity plays in a near flawless situation where hate is locked down always and there is never a mistake. For the rest of us where there are mistakes, and it's usually the WHM's sole responsibility to correct them, -enmity is great.

I don't think anyone's talking down -enmity in this thread. Although my posts certainly seem to be read that way by some, I am a strong proponent of the correct amount of -enmity; but that means not too much just as well as it means not too little.

JingWoo wrote:
I can understand not using Novia, it's a bit overkill and our earring slots have other good options to use. Even still, if I had it I would use it on Curaga III and IV happily.

Fully agree, my standing equip has Magnetic+Loquacious so that's what I start my cast in, but for every Curaga I cast, I swap the Loq for Novia mid-cast. However, I think Magnetic + Roundel are both better for Cures than Novia, so if I had Roundel then I wouldn't swap in the Novia anymore. If I found myself suddenly pulling hate with my Curagas, then I'd have to bite the bullet and get a Trooper to swap in most likely... as I refuse to give up any amount of Cure Potency or Conserve MP in exchange for enmity down unless I have absolutely no alternative. So having the cure potency Selenian Cap, I can't do Raven Beret or anything... I already use Errant Cape... if Novia's out of the picture, then Troopers would be my best alternative. Still hoping to avoid getting one, though. We'll see... I'm not gonna get a Roundel until after I finish Yagrush anyway, they're too expensive ; ;
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#24 Sep 03 2009 at 11:43 PM Rating: Default
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Pergatory wrote:
I was afraid you'd bring up that thread. That testing was literally done by a person holding a stopwatch. I'm sorry but I don't buy into it. I don't believe in cast time tiers. Even if someone can prove that the tiers exist with some kind of scientific timing machine, I'd sooner believe that it's an artifact of lag translating casting start/stop times from the server to the client, than believe that SE for some reason restricted cast time bonuses to a couple of very specific values.


Yet you ignored my second paragraph right there. Go ahead and try to cast Cure V with and without Light arts (w/ Merits+Clogs). I can guarantee you there will be no difference whatsoever.

It's really not something surprising. The game never works in fractions. Take haste for example. On a big spell like RR, 1% Haste will almost always equal out a second.
On fast spells, it takes huge amounts of haste to lower a second. To reduce a single second on an 8 second recast spell with haste, you need 12% Haste. Anything less will not produce results.
This could be considered a haste "Tier" for that particular spell, if you will.

What makes you think Fast Cast will be any different? On fast spells, it makes total sense that you require huge amounts of Fast cast to see results.





Quote:
On paper your logic is flawless[...]yes Curaga is the same enmity as individual Cures but spikes them all together in one cast; but in reality, Curaga lets you manage your casting much more effectively which can lead to an overall reduction in enmity.


This makes no sense at all mathematically speaking. Curaga + OtherSpells will STILL lead to a larger peak in enmity.

Heck, you just demonstrated that aggresive casting will be both more efficient; and also more intense Enmity-wise.

Quote:
Again, you are just building up straw men here so you can beat me over the head with your "enmity down is important" stick.


I'm only playing devil's advocate here. I'm not trying to beat anyone here with a "Enmity is important" stick. Heck, I run with less enmity than you do for almost everything. It's posted up there on my first reply.

You're the one that's going overboard with reducing the value -Enmity. I can pull like 5 quotes from this very thread showcasing this. It got to the point where it's almost insulting; even to people like me who runs with very little -Enmity.



...



Filian wrote:
Hate to say it, but that just proves how little you're grasping the flow of enmity in any given HNM fight. Here are some facts you might want to consider[..]
Any DD who has the potential to pull hate in any given fight could wear a Novia earring and actually do _more_ damage in the long run.


Your analysis is completely flawed; and your insult deliciously ironic. You forgot to take into account a small but important detail in all that rubbish:

Pulling hate as the Main Healer is much more Dangerous/Chaotic/Detrimental than doing so as a DD.
I don't even know why I have to bring such an obvious concept; but here am I stating the obvious. Tomorrow's not looking good either.

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#25 Sep 04 2009 at 1:52 AM Rating: Good
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I'm going to post an interesting, and slightly expanded, excerpt from that thread:

 
========================================================================================== 
 
-aga I   | WHM/SCH | -20%  | -15%  | 7% |    Yes     | 52%| 40.95%  | 2.530 sec | -44.33% 
-aga.I...|.WHM/SCH.|.-20%..|.-15%..|.2%.|....Yes.....|.47%|.46.15%..|:2.858:sec | -37.12% 
-aga I   | WHM/SCH | -20%  | -15%  | 2% |    No      | 37%| 46.15%  | 2.861 sec | -37.05% 
-aga.I...|.WHM/SCH.|.-20%..|.-15%..|....|....No......|.35%|.47.75%..|:2.965:sec | -34.76% 
-aga I   | WHM/SCH | -20%  |       |    |    Yes     | 30%| 53.25%  | 3.290 sec | -27.61% 
-aga.I...|.WHM/SCH.|.-20%..|.......|....|....No......|.20%|.60.20%..|:3.742:sec | -17.67% 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-aga.I...|.WHM/RDM.|.-20%..|.-15%..|.22%|....No......|.57%|.40.10%..|:2.497:sec | -45.06% 
-aga I   | WHM/RDM | -20%  | -15%  | 17%|    No      | 52%| 40.03%  | 2.490 sec | -45.21% 
-aga.I...|.WHM/RDM.|.-20%..|.......|.15%|....No......|.35%|.47.81%..|:2.983:sec | -34.37% 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-aga I   | RDM/WHM |       |       | 40%|    No      | 40%| 46.10%  | 2.862 sec | -37.03% 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-aga.I...|.WHM/SCH.|.......|.......|....|....Yes.....|.10%|.67.15%..|:4.190:sec | -7.81% 
-aga I   | WHM/SCH |       |       |    |    No      |  0%| 73.05%  | 4.545 sec | --.--% 
=============================================================================== 


The added column is actual reductions in casting time; anything more than 2% off is marked in red. (The most common difference, roughly 2.3%, is about one-tenth of a second.)

The "casting time reductions cap at 50%" conclusion from it was fine, though it seems off somewhat (note the "wall" right around -45% instead). The other conclusions are, unfortunately, probably not valid (most significant problem: 3% FC [47->50%] == 7% casting time reduction?!).
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#26 Sep 04 2009 at 4:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Whilst I don't go out of my way to stuff -ENM into my gear, I do like it. So I do walk around in an errant cape, trooper's ring and novia earring.

But I macro like a crazy thing... so my enfeebles use balrahns (and soon to be Omega when I get my last 60! ampoules..), my Cure V's use Aqua etc etc. I'm not a conserve MP junky... so I use magnetic for hMP or max mp build and I don't use spellcast, so loquacious is again a max mp or realistically, a brd piece for me.

I do own a roundel and sit on 30% cure potency. I do use curaga II a freaking ton and regens and the whole business. I also out survive any other WHM I've met to date. This doesn't make me the best WHM out there but it does mean I am curing for longer than the dead ones on the floor.

Maybe it's just the WHMs I've encountered but in almost all cases, a little more -ENM has not taken anything away from their performance and has added a lot to it.

I used to cast in -16, I now cast in -30 to -35 and I'm really happy about that. I know I have room to maneouvre. I know, should I get an Ixion Cape and a Cleric's belt, I have room to drop out some -ENM. That suits me just fine.

As for DD, with the exception of RNG who seem to do a lot more DoT and spike damage than some jobs on long fights and take less damage... I'd rather a DD maxed their output and the WHM equipped more -ENM to be able to keep up with it before pulling hate. I'm not saying there isn't a case in certain situations to equip -ENM gear (I've seen MNKs and RNG do it) but if the amount of ENM generated for each action of the WHM can be reduced by 30-50% I only see that as a good thing.

Cos let's face it, in most endgame fights you're going to be sat there /SCH, with a BRD and RDM and maybe a COR. You're not facing MP issues - you're facing hate issues.

I realise fights are a balance and good DD know when they're pushing their luck but often things go a lot more smoothly when everyone can operate at maximum potential. So your DD can go hell for leather, your tanks plant hate firmly and your WHM can make use of all of their tools because nothing looks at them twice.

Everyone in this thread is debating this pretty well, it's interesting to read. I have utmost respect for Perg but on this issue I don't think we've ever agreed :)

#27 Sep 04 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Pulling hate as the Main Healer is much more Dangerous/Chaotic/Detrimental than doing so as a DD.
I don't even know why I have to bring such an obvious concept; but here am I stating the obvious. Tomorrow's not looking good either.


Why is pulling hate as a healer worse? In some fights that may be true because you could be bringing innocent people into AOE range, but in general I don't see why you think that is so obvious. A DD takes hate and gets hurt, somebody needs to cure them and expend MP and build enmity in the process, not to mention waste valuable time doing so. A DD dies or is unable to perform to his maximum potential and your entire damage output drops and the fight takes longer, meaning an even greater potential to pull hate or run low on MP or to have the NM pull off that devastating move you've been hoping to avoid. If I die on WHM during a fight, I RR and keep doing my job; I don't need 1000 max MP to perform my duties. A DD dies and he's worthless for at least 5 minutes. When your DD's are all taking damage, which again is far more likely than you doing it, that is when things can really get hairy. Your assumption that your role is somehow more valuable than a DD's is misguided logic. In fact, I have always felt that if anyone dies before I do then I have failed in my duty as a WHM.
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#28 Sep 04 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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eldelphia wrote:
let's face it, in most endgame fights you're going to be sat there /SCH, with a BRD and RDM and maybe a COR. You're not facing MP issues - you're facing hate issues.
[...]
Everyone in this thread is debating this pretty well, it's interesting to read. I have utmost respect for Perg but on this issue I don't think we've ever agreed :)


/agree

And yeah, blinky blinkertons (such as eldelphia and myself) have much more freedom to balance larger amounts of -enmity into their actions, than those who fulltime one AH/carryover set.

EDIT: typos!

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 10:28am by RyaWHM
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#29 Sep 04 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:
It's really not something surprising. The game never works in fractions. Take haste for example. On a big spell like RR, 1% Haste will almost always equal out a second.
On fast spells, it takes huge amounts of haste to lower a second. To reduce a single second on an 8 second recast spell with haste, you need 12% Haste. Anything less will not produce results.
This could be considered a haste "Tier" for that particular spell, if you will.

Rounding hardly qualifies as a tier. This is something totally different, unless it's rounding to the nearest second for cast completion. Which... well, SE has done dumber things, so I should probably just leave it at that. Even if that were the case, the tiers would vary from spell to spell, just like Haste's recast reduction varies from spell to spell. That being the case, the tiers are really almost irrelevant, and any bit of fast cast is equally likely to reduce the cast time for a given spell. It's possible there would be some lulls in the spectrum where 2 points of fast cast will not affect anything except the longest spells like Stoneskin, but that's pretty hard to judge. Personally, I operate under the assumption that every bit of fast cast helps. Can't say the same for enmity down. This is the one and only point I've been trying to make this entire time. Enmity down is immensely important, but is unique in that it's also possible to go way overboard with it and gain no benefit whatsoever, a fact that is often overlooked by WHMs who pile on the enmity down at every opportunity. It's comparable to wearing 40% haste when the cap is 25%.

Drakonite wrote:
This makes no sense at all mathematically speaking. Curaga + OtherSpells will STILL lead to a larger peak in enmity.

Heck, you just demonstrated that aggresive casting will be both more efficient; and also more intense Enmity-wise.

Did you even read what I wrote? "OtherSpells" in this case are preventative spells which reduce your enmity in the long run. You are too short-sighted in your analysis. Look at the long run, that's where the enmity game is played.

One Curaga (even a II or III) and a handful of maintenance spells aren't going to pull hate unless you were extremely negligent in your casting previous to those spells. You can't just look at things on a per-cast basis, and simply respond to each situation as it comes up. If you do, you will most certainly need to pile on the Enmity Down because this is irresponsible casting. There are situations that will come up that will not allow for "responsible" (low-MP, low-enmity) casting because things are happening too fast, so it's important when those situations arrive that you've kept low hate levels up until that point in anticipation of that situation coming up.

These trade-offs are the key to allowing you to get away with lower levels of Enmity Down, and Curagas are an essential piece to that puzzle if 3+ members of your party are taking damage. That's why I see Curaga as being low-enmity, it heals multiple people at once for the same enmity as single-target Cures, giving you more casting time for preventative spells that will help bring your enmity back down again after the Curaga.
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#30 Sep 04 2009 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Enmity down is immensely important, but is unique in that it's also possible to go way overboard with it and gain no benefit whatsoever, a fact that is often overlooked by WHMs who pile on the enmity down at every opportunity. It's comparable to wearing 40% haste when the cap is 25%.


Wrong. No matter the situation, that additional 15% Haste over the cap can't possibly help you, because of the game mechanics. Wearing -40 enmity as opposed to -30 can help you in some situations. You're right, it won't make a difference most of the time; it's more of a safety net.


Edited, Sep 4th 2009 2:26pm by michelobmidgard
#31 Sep 04 2009 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think part of the disconnect could be: Lowman!

- those who don't do lowman stuff may see -50enm as a waste
- those who have done lowman stuff are more likely to appreciate -50

See, in normal events, I would agree that even -20 enmity should be more than enough. But in lowman situations, what's normally a quick fight can easily turn into a very long one.

So, you're much more likely to have people hitting the CE cap, catching up to each other and all that, even if you're the best WHM in the world. Given enough time, it's bound to happen eventually -- even if you're wearing -50 enmity -- so what it does is give you more time before you reach that point. (which can be really helpful...but so can /DRG)

(however, I still say if you're not sacrificing much else, adding -enmity even beyond -30 is just that much more security, even in normal events; it's a good thing)

Anyway, just an idea ... as to where this huge difference of opinion may be coming from. :P

EDIT: colors are fun >.>

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 4:34pm by RyaWHM
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#32 Sep 04 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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Did you even read what I wrote? "OtherSpells" in this case are preventative spells which reduce your enmity in the long run. You are too short-sighted in your analysis. Look at the long run, that's where the enmity game is played.


You should know me better than that by now.

This is very simple mathematics. |A| + |B| > |A| when B ≠ 0.

You're arguing that because Curaga saved you some time (At the Expense of higher Enmity Peaks); you can now cast more stuff that will prevent further need of Enmity-intensive spells.
This is a bit harder to calculate, but the result AFAIK should still end the same.

Why? Because given an infinite time frame and same enmity consumption: the player that finishes his casting first will always have higher Enmity peak than the one that finished last; even if the final enmity results the same.

However; the player that took his time (Lower Enmity peak) is also less efficient (Time-wise); and more prone to safety given a real situation; and also prone to need more spells. You said this yourself.


But what happens when you add both conclusions? Simple, to the exact same thing I said earlier:
Aggresive+Efficient curing can only be done at the expense of Enmity.

All of this nonsense was just to prove with arguments something that should be common knowledge by now.
Here's the comparison of what the 3 forms of healing (Regens/Cures/Curagas) sacrifice/gain when compared to the other two:

Safety = Others safety; MP = MP-Efficiency, Enmity = Your own enmity.

- Regens sacrifice Safety for MP and Enmity.
- Single Cures, sacrifice MP for Safety and Enmity.
- Curagas sacrifice Enmity for MP and Safety.

This isn't rocket science. It's nothing new either. In fact, it was even documented and sticky'd in an incredibly old topic back on 2005; before we even had the numbers/formulas to back it up.



Edited, Sep 4th 2009 3:40pm by Drakonite
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#33 Sep 04 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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(however, I still say if you're not sacrificing much else, adding -enmity even beyond -30 is just that much more security, even in normal events; it's a good thing)


That's just it. I agree with Perg that most of the time, the amount of -enmity that the average WHM is wearing is overkill, but why would you consider something that is going to keep you safe in the event of a dramatic mishap a bad thing?
#34 Sep 04 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I think part of the disconnect could be: Lowman!

- those who don't do lowman stuff may see -50enm as a waste
- those who have done lowman stuff are more likely to appreciate -50


I did Hydra a couple weeks ago with 7 people, just for fun. We had only three WAR/NINs for tanks so no fancy hate tools aside from vokes and plain old damage. I did not wear a single piece of extra enmity-reduction gear other than what I always use, which is probably somewhere between -15 and 20, I don't even know. I had to Benediction partway through and a few times I had to Esuna -> big Curaga to prevent Nerve Gas wipeage. I cured enough that nobody died. Guess how many times I pulled hate? Zero, zilch, nada. I actually thought I would on a few occasions but I never did. So once again, while everyone here theory-craft about how much enmity reduction gear is necessary, my personal experience has shown me that it's _often, but not always_ not very much at all.

Just imagine if I had a NIN/DRK tanking with Yonin and enmity+30 in gear, spamming stun, bind, poison, absorbs, ninjutsu etc. with the occasional Souleater/Last Resort thrown in. I don't think you guys are even aware of how much hate a good tank can generate and how quickly.
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#35 Sep 04 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I did Hydra a couple weeks ago with 7 people [...] I never [pulled hate]

I didn't wanna get too tied up in specifics, although the example is nice I guess.

But, all I meant was, we all seem to agree that longer fights make enmity more likely to matter. Kinda makes sense, you know?

Longer stuff = more room for -enmity to help...

...lowman stuff usually takes longer...

...so, usually, lowman stuff = more room for -enmity to help. :)

But it still REALLY depends on your setup ... some lowman setups on some mobs, could be very shaky.

Others, could be very stable, just longer:
PLD, RDM, SAM, BRD

where the mob is usually done with:
PLD, RDM, SAM, SAM, SAM, BRD

...or whatever. I think you get the idea. I hope. I really hope. >.>

EDIT: It's prolly worth mentioning that the last time I did lowman stuff regularly, was before THF had those certain shared-timer JA's -- so if a minimalist THF/NIN was your tank, you had to be more careful back then...

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 5:33pm by RyaWHM
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#36 Sep 04 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:
Why? Because given an infinite time frame and same enmity consumption: the player that finishes his casting first will always have higher Enmity peak than the one that finished last; even if the final enmity results the same.

However; the player that took his time (Lower Enmity peak) is also less efficient (Time-wise); and more prone to safety given a real situation; and also prone to need more spells. You said this yourself.
The thing is, the player that's taking his time, especially in a situation that requires a substantial number of spells, may have a higher average enmity over the same period of time.

(This obviously requires enough VE to be generated by "let's do all the spells as quickly as possible" to hit 10k before finishing - effectively, the spells that happen after that point are almost hate-free. If you know how to handle a situation like this - or if you're low on CE to begin with and your tank's enmity is mostly CE - this is potentially more valuable than enmity- gear. Smiley: grin)
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#37 Sep 04 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Archfiend MDenham wrote:
The thing is, the player that's taking his time, especially in a situation that requires a substantial number of spells, may have a higher average enmity over the same period of time.


I think I know what you're saying; but the way you worded it is confusing. The final average doesn't change, because you're dealing with the same Enmity on both sides (Will have same average). Only the range changes on this.

I think what you wanted to say is that at some point, the slow casting guy will have more enmity than the guy that already finished. This is actually true.
But the way enmity works; in which only the highest peaks matters (Pulling hate); this particular detail isn't exactly very relevant :3

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#38 Sep 04 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
You're the one that's going overboard with reducing the value -Enmity. I can pull like 5 quotes from this very thread showcasing this. It got to the point where it's almost insulting; even to people like me who runs with very little -Enmity.

Be my guest and pull 5 quotes that show how overboard I've gone. Call me out on that, not on these ridiculous things such as fast cast tiers. I think that as you try to search for those quotes, you'll find that in most cases you'd simply read words into my mouth, such as this:
"Ultimately I think each person should go through this process, and I know you all are probably sick of hearing me say this... but do not equip enmity down except as a last resort."
and replying with:
"Quite the contrary. Having a healthy "Enmity" buffer is a very smart thing to do; it helps you be ready for when sh*t hits the fan."
When the two points are not contrary at all. When I say "don't equip enmity down except as a last resort," I'm not referring to equipping the absolute bare minimum amount to avoid pulling hate. I'm actually referring to the process of evaluating your equipment and casting habits, which was the topic of that entire post. This should've been apparent if you'd actually read it. Said another way: You should first see if there are practical and safe ways to change your casting habits to reduce enmity, and only after exploring every possibility should you resort to Enmity Down. It should be your last ditch effort at keeping safe enmity levels, not your first as most WHM view it. Most WHM if they pull hate during a fight their automatic response is, "I need more Enmity Down!" This is not always the case. This is how it can become a crutch, when people take this point of view.

*Note that I said "safe enmity levels," this is something I could see you skimming over and not really seeing for what it means. Safe enmity levels doesn't mean 5 VE away from pulling hate. It means safe. It means you should be able to react to situations and not be constrained by your enmity.

I reality, I think that our opinions are not very different, Drak. You just seem to think I'm saying some very outrageous things that I'm not saying at all, and do not comprehend the nature of the message I'm trying to convey. Everything you said could've been an addendum to my posts and I would've probably replied "I agree completely!" (well, except the fast cast tier stuff) but you instead decided to challenge me on your own false assumptions, leading to making us both look as fools.

michelobmidgard wrote:
Wrong. No matter the situation, that additional 15% Haste over the cap can't possibly help you, because of the game mechanics. Wearing -40 enmity as opposed to -30 can help you in some situations. You're right, it won't make a difference most of the time; it's more of a safety net.

This would be true in exceptional situations, such as low-manning a mob that hits really hard, or fighting a mob with hate reset moves, or really strange hate mechanics like Tanihwa. In those situations, your safety net often can't be too large. I use Enmity-35 on Long-Bowed Chariot and I love how after a Homing Missiles hits the MNKs, they can pull hate off me again with one weaponskill after 5+ minutes of me casting spells.

However, outside those situations, my analogy stands. If Enmity-30 would result in never pulling hate in a given battle, what good does Enmity-40 do? Now, I understand your conflict, as haste is a fixed target at 25%, while enmity levels required to avoid pulling hate in a battle is a constantly moving target. So in that respect, they are slightly different. Picking the right amount of enmity down is more of a trial-and-error thing. However, the point I was trying to make was that Enmity Down always has a point beyond which it will do nothing for you, except allow you to be more lazy and wasteful in your casting without drawing attention to yourself.

I work in the software development world and there's a metaphor we often refer to which is "lowering the water level." New software development methodologies will often do little to actually improve your ability to write good software. More often what it actually does is lower the "water level," such that any flaws in the process that existed before without being noticed may be visible with the new methodology, giving us the opportunity to correct them and improve our efficiency. In addition to allowing you to safely perform more actions, Enmity Down also increases the water level and conceals problems in your play style. That's why it's a good idea to lower the water level from time to time and see if anything gets exposed. There's nothing wrong with raising it right back up again if you find that the things which pull hate are things which really can't be safely avoided or done another way. However, it's important not to raise the water level as a reflex. It should be a very well-thought-over decision.

Drakonite wrote:
This is very simple mathematics. |A| + |B| > |A| when B ≠ 0.

You're arguing that because Curaga saved you some time (At the Expense of higher Enmity Peaks); you can now cast more stuff that will prevent further need of Enmity-intensive spells.
This is a bit harder to calculate, but the result AFAIK should still end the same.

Why? Because given an infinite time frame and same enmity consumption: the player that finishes his casting first will always have higher Enmity peak than the one that finished last; even if the final enmity results the same.

I'll borrow a page from Michelob on this one: Wrong.

Your assumption is based on a linear set of spells to cast. The whole point of what I was saying about Curaga can only be viewed if you look at the big picture. Let's say everyone gets hit for 250 damage, and you know more damage is coming in a minute or two. If you're doing individual Cure III's, then you'll be lucky to finish by the time the next wave of damage hits, and will be right back where you started spamming more Cures to keep your head above water, wasting MP and generating excessive enmity. If you instead use Curaga II, you will have a slight lull before the next wave of damage. You will be able to use this time to throw up some regens, Auspice, and other preventative spells. Thus, when the next wave of damage hits, your reaction won't need to be as severe as the person using single-target Cures as the regens and such will lower the severity of the situation for you. Thus, on the second wave of damage, you may cast a Curaga instead of Curaga II, while the single-target guy would still be spamming Cure III's and possibly IV's by this point if he gets too far behind.

So the correct version of your statement would be:
Given an infinite time frame, the same rate of enmity consumption, and the same rate of damage to the party, the player that uses Curagas will be sacrificing higher peak enmity on the short term for lower overall enmity on the long term in addition to greater overall MP efficiency.
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#39 Sep 04 2009 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Your assumption is based on a linear set of spells to cast.


You didn't even read or quote the whole thing. Read the paragraph after that. It addresses this very point and is part of the conclusion.

Also..

Quote:
Given an infinite time frame, the same rate of enmity consumption, and the same rate of damage to the party, the player that uses Curagas will be sacrificing higher peak enmity on the short term for lower overall enmity on the long term in addition to greater overall MP efficiency.


This is illogical. Unless you missed adding a minimum amount of HP Cured upkeep; there is absolutely no reason for the "Slow" guy to use less efficient spells in the infinite-time frame comparison. The result is that they'd have the same MP efficiency, same average and final Enmity, and the only different variable would be the ranges (Peaks/Lows); in which "Fast guy" will have a much larger range.

And if you're adding the HP cured upkeep (Forcing "Slow" guy to use less efficient spells). Then you just reverted to the exact same thing I've repeated twice already.
You're the one adding arguments my point and you don't even realize it.



A to further elaborate on another point you're missing that has been brought here numerious times: -Enmity has increasing returns.
By the time you reach -50 Enmity; you can start doing some really crazy High-risk/High-reward stuff non-stop.

Why am I bringing this up again? Because this particular detail should be even more important to you more than any other WHM; since you're aiming at a Yagrush. Do you have any idea of the Hate-capabilities of the Divine Veil Enhancement?
By the time you start using Yagrush; you'll start wearing all those pieces you dislike so much. Your Troopers, Novia, Mirror, and maybe even some Raven.
That is; if you want to take full advantage of your Yagrush.



Edited, Sep 5th 2009 2:31am by Drakonite

Edited, Sep 5th 2009 2:34am by Drakonite
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#40 Sep 05 2009 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
Archfiend MDenham wrote:
The thing is, the player that's taking his time, especially in a situation that requires a substantial number of spells, may have a higher average enmity over the same period of time.


I think I know what you're saying; but the way you worded it is confusing. The final average doesn't change, because you're dealing with the same Enmity on both sides (Will have same average). Only the range changes on this.
Not necessarily.

Say you're both dropping spells for 800 VE apiece; one person is casting every 4 seconds, while the other person is casting every 8 seconds.

As long as fewer than 18 spells are cast under these conditions, yes, they both have the same average enmity over the course of this.

However, here's the figures just before #18:

* Fast caster: VE 9520
* Slow caster: VE 5440

The next cast of the spell is worth only 480 VE to the person who's chain-casting because of this - and even more importantly, any casts after that are only going to be worth 240 VE (the amount of VE lost in 4 seconds).

So, let's say that we take a 25-cast situation (1:40 for the fast caster, 3:20 for the slow caster). The fast caster gets 800 * 17 + 480 + 240 * 7 = 15760 total enmity in this span The slow caster gets 800 * 25 = 20000 total enmity.

The fast caster will take 2:46 2/3 to drop back to 0 VE; the slow caster will take 2:21 1/3 (they're at 8480 VE after the 25th cast).

* Fast caster: 15760/(4:26 2/3) = ~59.10 enmity/sec
* Slow caster: 20000/(5:41 1/3) = ~58.59 enmity/sec

...After doing some figuring it turns out that chain-casting in this situation does not ever give a lower enmity/sec during the casting and cooldown time. (If it weren't for that, after the 30th casting, the slow caster is also in the "capped VE" area, the fast caster would pull ahead around the 61st casting in this situation.) However, there is still a distinct difference in average enmity in this time frame.
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#41 Sep 05 2009 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
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Playing around with a few options today.

For dynamis, non boss limbus, einherjar, or any other battlefield environment where the mob will be dead in less than a minute, I go with -13 enmity, +59 mnd, and 10 percent haste. It would be 15 but I use selenian cap for the cure potency.

For long drawn out fights, IE ouryu, Kited Kirin, t3-4 ZNMs, I now use a -30ish setup. (Yigit hat, Healer's Mitts+1, blessed legs and feet, theta sash, tamas+troopers rings)

For zergs...well lets face it, if you pull hate during a zerg then you really need to find a new linkshell.
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#42 Sep 06 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
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lightningcount wrote:
For zergs...well lets face it, if you pull hate during a zerg then you really need to find a new linkshell.
If you pull hate during a zerg, you're WHM/DRK, using a KClub and a ridiculous amount of haste.
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#43 Sep 06 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Lol, yeah doubt that would ever happen to a taru ^^.


Gonna see how the next tinnin goes. On the last one, I started to ride the hate line when Tinnin was around 10-20ish percent. On fights that last that long, I just couldn't keep the mob from looking at me.

One minor thing too. Most of the time DDs are usually /thf so that can sata or TA the tanks. Never seen a DD take hate from anything really unless it was a blu or a BLM.
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#44 Sep 07 2009 at 3:39 AM Rating: Good
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I hate to bring it up but I think 'sh*t is situational' kinda fits here.

If you have a great tank, a BRD/BLM landing double length Elegy, a RDM with good enfeebling skill and related merits in a long fight, life is going to be easier as a WHM you're going to be dealing with less crap over time.

If you have other supporting healers or WHMs in the alliance, life is going to be easier, no one person is going to be pulling hate because a barrage of Cure IIIs are going to be going off every time something happens.

I spend a proportion of my time being the sole WHM at low manned events. I have been involved in a variety of endgame activities and fights. Other events we're standing there with a full alliance with a ton of support. It just depends.

I don't feel I go to extremes with my -ENM, I feel my overall setup is balanced. It gets tweaked when new gear or abilities come out.

There are so many possible setups for the events we all attend - depending on what yours is, will impact hugely on how you gear yourself.

I do agree with Perg that it doesn't hurt to review your gear periodically. I do it a lot as I learn more about my job and have access to new gear.
#45 Sep 07 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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^ So much this.

That is pretty much the conclusion I have reached since starting this thread. Originally I beleived that the setup my ls uses will generally be around the same thing excluding low mans. So generally I did not have to mess with my enmity setup much. Now... After having capped hate on tinnin for about 3 minutes until I just said screw it did a cure 4 to die and have hate reset, I started to review my gear. (Literally would be drawn in, smacked, use a cure 5 on tanks, get drawn in again...was like this for about 3-4 minutes.)

Pretty much I was half right. During events where your mobs will be dead in less than a minute, those are the events where you do not have to worry much about hate. Now granted using a cure 4 and the very beginning of a fight is still dumb no matter the fight, but you don't have to worry much about hate for a 5 or 3 at the beginning.

For things like non zergged sky gods...well those I dont have to worry cause every DD goes /thf and does SATA Gekko or steele cylone.

For things like kited kirin or t4 ZNM, I go with -30ish enmity.

SO yeah eldelphia hit it perfectly its all situational.
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#46 Sep 08 2009 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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Right!

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 2:10am by Phaulken
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#47 Sep 12 2009 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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To be honest, since im not much of an endgame WHM (besides Dynamis and Limbus) I've never really concerned myself overtly with -enmity. The equipment I use is mostly Blessed/Noble's combo. I do use the relic hat, but more for the Resist Silence than the enmity since it stacks with the traits gained from Scholar sub. So useful in fact, that I found a considerable decrease in my need for Echo drops, though naturally I always keep a stack for contingencies.

My entire equipment setup comes to -24 enmity (enmity items listed below). Perhaps not the best for taking on powerful HNMs or long drawn-out fights, but I rarely take hate and I consider that to be a good sign im on the right track.

Staff Strap		-2 
Cleric's Cap		-4 
Blessed Mitts		-3 
Blessed Trousers	-5 
Blessed Pumps		-4 
Penitent's Rope		-3 
Tamas Ring		-3

As you can see I don't really go overboard on anything besides MND. I do have a Walahra Turban, but I almost never use it except for soloing (For the Haste). During Lightsday/weather I swap out the Penitent's Rope for a Korin Obi, so you can ditch the bonus from that during those times, or whenever I have a SCH casting Aurorastorm on me.

Edited, Sep 12th 2009 4:51am by Crystan
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#48 Sep 12 2009 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Skimming through this thread again...

Quote:
Enmity down itself is a useless stat until you need it, and by the time you need it, it's far too late to equip it.


I really don't understand this comment. That's like saying enmity+ is useless for tanks until they lose hate...

It's called a preventative measure. You wear it early so buildup is lessened. You're not supposed to put that stuff on only after you've already drawn hate.
#49 Sep 12 2009 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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Thats kind of like putting a condom on after you have finished...
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#50 Sep 14 2009 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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The Fynlar of Doom wrote:
Skimming through this thread again...

Quote:
Enmity down itself is a useless stat until you need it, and by the time you need it, it's far too late to equip it.


I really don't understand this comment. That's like saying enmity+ is useless for tanks until they lose hate...

It's called a preventative measure. You wear it early so buildup is lessened. You're not supposed to put that stuff on only after you've already drawn hate.

You pretty much explained the second half of the comment, "by the time you need it, it's far too late to equip it." The first part of the quote alludes to the fact that enmity down itself does nothing to benefit your spells. It doesn't make them cost less MP, cast faster, last longer, or be more potent. This creates an inherent conflict:

1. The nature of enmity down is such that you won't know you don't have enough until it's too late to equip more. This leads to the tendency to equip slightly more than is necessary, just to give yourself a safe margin. (There are many stats like this; Adding accuracy when you're already at 95% hit rate is pointless.)

2. If you take this to the extreme and equip way too much enmity down, you will never know it. There is no way to discover your current enmity level, or how much more enmity the tank has than you. At the end of a fight, you may have been one cast short of pulling hate, or you may have had one tenth as much as the tank. (In the analogy to accuracy, folks have parsed and calculated and determined the amount of accuracy needed for most different events, but you simply cannot do this with enmity down as it's so circumstantial.)

This is what makes the nature of enmity down so confusing, that was the point of my comment.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 2:17pm by Pergatory
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#51 Sep 14 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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It's a trial and error thing. If you do a certain fight often enough and you've noticed that you tend to rip hate a lot against a certain mob uncontrollably, you'll know before you fight it again that your enmity setup might need tweaking. Same goes for tanks. If your routine doesn't change that much between iterations of a fight, it's not hard to make educated guesses at your enmity level is, or will be.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 7:25pm by Fynlar
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