How is your enmity in endgame?Follow

At the moment the only endgame I do with any frequency is einherjar, salvage, and dynamis. The first and the last things die too quick for enmity to be a real concern.

In salvage, the only time I can think of that I take hate on whm is ZR boss, and even then at best its a quick glance at me after I cure up discoid damage. I have SCH75 that I usually take to salvage and accession stoneskin and the like takes hate a lot more than my WHM ever does. Regen 3, cure 3, occasional penury cure V.

Back when I did sky I dont remember ever really taking hate sans like, kited kirins which took foreverrrr. Other than that, iono its been awhile.


Noteworthy gear I have is errant cape, troopers ring, novia earring, storm earring (salvage) and heavens earring +1 (I augmented it and got MP+14, score)


On a side note I'm mildly jealous of hardcore whms that made the cure pot MKD hat. Although I made it a hexa piece and I'm very pleased being able to bash things in the head with a blunt object with such deadly accuracy.

If you get enough people to go to that zone, I recommend going /smn and keeping carby out to help with discoid damage. With 8 people + wyvern and carby we all take about 200. Great place to use Cura.




Ok so about double my enmity down XD. Pretty sure I already know the answer, but for protracted fights, like certain ZNMs, how does your enmity fair? IE last night we did Armed Gears. We usually straight tank him at one of the teleporter pads so our BLMs and RNGs can zone if they steal hate from our PLD. I noticed that I took hate at one point. It hit me for about 500 then went back to the tank. THis is about normal for me. Tank 4ed me and grabbed some extra enmity for himself. Anyone else have similar experiences like this?

Same. Since I denied myself the treat of Mjollnir by changing to relic horn, I gave myself a melee WHM MKE hat. I may change it later on someday, but for now, its fun fun fun!

Considering that I don't do endgame at present, Blessed hands/legs/feet + AF head is enough Enmity- (13) for me right now.

That said, I have no problems with pulling hate on occasion (say, once every 8-10 fights).

(Oh, and the one thing that I'm not absolutely certain about - and couldn't find any information one way or the other on - is that I believe that Enmity+/- gear works "backwards" for enmity losses due to being hit and such. That is, Enmity- gear increases the amount of enmity lost when hit.)

I think this page is what you're looking for:
http://kanican.livejournal.com/31613.html



-----

And regarding "excess -enmity" during cure spells, the only real excess is -51 and beyond...

Maybe some players know for sure who they're gonna be dealing with, but I don't ... I might volunteer to help a friend (and four strangers) with a fight ... only to have loose hate and poor damage mitigation. I dunno how it'll be, I dunno what it'll be, but I like to know that my normal set is as high on -enmity as it can be (without sacrificing good deals on other stats).

Maybe this's the part where everyone tells me to "quit playing with idiots" or whatever, but I like knowing my chance of pulling hate in even the worst situations ... is minimized!

(that's just me though) :P

EDIT: I use -37 for all cures, last I checked

Edited, Sep 1st 2009 6:21pm by RyaWHM

I use about -30~ish enmity on my normal curing set and that seems to work just fine for almost every HNM and endgame event.

But what if there's a new ammo piece next month with -25 enmity on it... if you had it, you would specifically not use it? O.o I'm just trying to understand...

I don't really play differently now than I did with -10 enmity, I'm just as conservative/careful (regens, light cures where possible, etc). So if you play as though you're wearing none, regardless of how much you're actually wearing, how is it a "crutch" in that case?

I understand it's not a good idea to start endgame in -50, and just bomb all over, and learn your limits that way, that's dumb...

but surely there's a difference in whether or not you're allowing -50 to change your playstyle, when you could ignore it, like the parachute you'll never open (just feels great knowing it's there)

I agree with Perg etc. etc.... I was hoping this wouldn't devolve into the same old argument, but here we are nonetheless. I've basically given up on trying to convince WHMs to give up their security blanket of gearing for enmity down because it's something rather intangible which can't be directly proven except with personal experience. So here's my person experience: I have never geared specifically for enmity reduction as a WHM; I am happy with the amount I get naturally from wearing the gear I would be wearing anyways. I don't understand where WHM enmity problems come from, I am almost always right smack at the bottom of the hate list on any given mob. The only times that is not true is in extraordinary cases where I'm sure an extra 20% less enmity wouldn't save me anyways, or when everyone else has already died, in which case I'm boned anyways.

Incidentally, this is why I am strongly of the opinion that Novia earrings should go to heavy DDs way before the WHM puts one on, but good luck trying to convince your average Joe Samurai to put on "mage gear", even if ultimately it would result in them doing more damage.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2009 4:27pm by Filian

That's because you're arguing against an enemy that doesn't exist. There's no one here that likes "Piling" on -Enmity so much that they'd give up useful stats for it.

I'm just being practical. Your average new WHM will most likely take full advantage of the extra -Enmity; both because they'd be running with low amounts (9~14); and will probably not have a good playstyle because of it.
The scenario of a WHM running in -40 or more Enmity is just so rare and unlikely like to be treating it like a common flaw - It's not.

And the only DD that can really make use of Novia are RNG's, because their earring choices are bad for the most part. That, or people wanting to solo with an Evasion build. The rest are better off with their DD earrings.

Hate to say it, but that just proves how little you're grasping the flow of enmity in any given HNM fight. Here are some facts you might want to consider:

-DD jobs who are doing their job are always much (much much) closer to pulling hate than the WHM is
-DD jobs can and will die just as fast as a WHM will if they pull hate
-A _smart_ DD will be cognizant of the hate threshold and often times has to hold back to prevent pulling hate
-A dead DD does no damage

So what good is your DD earring if you have to hold back to not die anyways? To take it even further, what good is your DD earring if you're dead? Any DD who has the potential to pull hate in any given fight could wear a Novia earring and actually do _more_ damage in the long run. The only difference is that we as WHMs are schooled to think in terms of what is best for the group. That guy in your LS who only levels DD jobs? He only cares about big numbers and pulling hate makes him feel justified.

I have -30 in my normal set, and - 34 for Curaga III and IV, -23 for Cure V. I use high tier Curagas pretty frequently, I always find myself in a situation where a Curaga III is the most efficient spell to use and the best spell to save the group. Without the -enmity I have on, I'm positive I would be dead in a ton of events. The other WHMs in my shell usually get hate first and get killed first.

In 99% of situations, it may not matter because tanks are so good at holding hate (the good ones anyway). But there are the other situations like an overpull in dynamis, and you're curing the Bard, then the enemy turns to you, or curing BLMs who are sleeping the mass link, or curing a DD who is soloing an enemy, basically any situation where there is no tank. Or hell, even if you have a sh*tty PLD/NIN who doesn't use a max HP gear swap set for Cure IV to get hate, you can pull hate extremely quickly.

Anyone who is talking down -enmity plays in a near flawless situation where hate is locked down always and there is never a mistake. For the rest of us where there are mistakes, and it's usually the WHM's sole responsibility to correct them, -enmity is great.

I can understand not using Novia, it's a bit overkill and our earring slots have other good options to use. Even still, if I had it I would use it on Curaga III and IV happily. As far as Trooper's, I don't wear it anymore, but I don't understand anyone who thinks it's a bad ring. It's one of the only rings in the game that will do something for every WHM spell, lower your enmity on all your Hastes, Cures, everything. MND rings only really work on 5 spells: Stoneskin, Silence, Paralyze, Slow and Cure V. Your only other choice is an MP ring that will last you for one spell, then it's sitting there useless. Personally, I wear Omega/Tamas but I wouldn't talk sh*t on anyone who uses Trooper's as long as they macro in a MND ring on those 5 spells, and stoneskin is almost surely capped anyway, so it's really just 4.

[EDIT]Forgot Banish and Holy

Also, Rya, you're cracking me up with your green font lol. Grats on Guru. I've seen you do a lot of amazing tests.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 2:50pm by JingWoo

Yet you ignored my second paragraph right there. Go ahead and try to cast Cure V with and without Light arts (w/ Merits+Clogs). I can guarantee you there will be no difference whatsoever.

It's really not something surprising. The game never works in fractions. Take haste for example. On a big spell like RR, 1% Haste will almost always equal out a second.
On fast spells, it takes huge amounts of haste to lower a second. To reduce a single second on an 8 second recast spell with haste, you need 12% Haste. Anything less will not produce results.
This could be considered a haste "Tier" for that particular spell, if you will.

What makes you think Fast Cast will be any different? On fast spells, it makes total sense that you require huge amounts of Fast cast to see results.







This makes no sense at all mathematically speaking. Curaga + OtherSpells will STILL lead to a larger peak in enmity.

Heck, you just demonstrated that aggresive casting will be both more efficient; and also more intense Enmity-wise.



I'm only playing devil's advocate here. I'm not trying to beat anyone here with a "Enmity is important" stick. Heck, I run with less enmity than you do for almost everything. It's posted up there on my first reply.

You're the one that's going overboard with reducing the value -Enmity. I can pull like 5 quotes from this very thread showcasing this. It got to the point where it's almost insulting; even to people like me who runs with very little -Enmity.



...





Your analysis is completely flawed; and your insult deliciously ironic. You forgot to take into account a small but important detail in all that rubbish:

Pulling hate as the Main Healer is much more Dangerous/Chaotic/Detrimental than doing so as a DD.
I don't even know why I have to bring such an obvious concept; but here am I stating the obvious. Tomorrow's not looking good either.

Whilst I don't go out of my way to stuff -ENM into my gear, I do like it. So I do walk around in an errant cape, trooper's ring and novia earring.

But I macro like a crazy thing... so my enfeebles use balrahns (and soon to be Omega when I get my last 60! ampoules..), my Cure V's use Aqua etc etc. I'm not a conserve MP junky... so I use magnetic for hMP or max mp build and I don't use spellcast, so loquacious is again a max mp or realistically, a brd piece for me.

I do own a roundel and sit on 30% cure potency. I do use curaga II a freaking ton and regens and the whole business. I also out survive any other WHM I've met to date. This doesn't make me the best WHM out there but it does mean I am curing for longer than the dead ones on the floor.

Maybe it's just the WHMs I've encountered but in almost all cases, a little more -ENM has not taken anything away from their performance and has added a lot to it.

I used to cast in -16, I now cast in -30 to -35 and I'm really happy about that. I know I have room to maneouvre. I know, should I get an Ixion Cape and a Cleric's belt, I have room to drop out some -ENM. That suits me just fine.

As for DD, with the exception of RNG who seem to do a lot more DoT and spike damage than some jobs on long fights and take less damage... I'd rather a DD maxed their output and the WHM equipped more -ENM to be able to keep up with it before pulling hate. I'm not saying there isn't a case in certain situations to equip -ENM gear (I've seen MNKs and RNG do it) but if the amount of ENM generated for each action of the WHM can be reduced by 30-50% I only see that as a good thing.

Cos let's face it, in most endgame fights you're going to be sat there /SCH, with a BRD and RDM and maybe a COR. You're not facing MP issues - you're facing hate issues.

I realise fights are a balance and good DD know when they're pushing their luck but often things go a lot more smoothly when everyone can operate at maximum potential. So your DD can go hell for leather, your tanks plant hate firmly and your WHM can make use of all of their tools because nothing looks at them twice.

Everyone in this thread is debating this pretty well, it's interesting to read. I have utmost respect for Perg but on this issue I don't think we've ever agreed :)

/agree

And yeah, blinky blinkertons (such as eldelphia and myself) have much more freedom to balance larger amounts of -enmity into their actions, than those who fulltime one AH/carryover set.

EDIT: typos!

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 10:28am by RyaWHM

Wrong. No matter the situation, that additional 15% Haste over the cap can't possibly help you, because of the game mechanics. Wearing -40 enmity as opposed to -30 can help you in some situations. You're right, it won't make a difference most of the time; it's more of a safety net.


Edited, Sep 4th 2009 2:26pm by michelobmidgard

You should know me better than that by now.

This is very simple mathematics. |A| + |B| > |A| when B ≠ 0.

You're arguing that because Curaga saved you some time (At the Expense of higher Enmity Peaks); you can now cast more stuff that will prevent further need of Enmity-intensive spells.
This is a bit harder to calculate, but the result AFAIK should still end the same.

Why? Because given an infinite time frame and same enmity consumption: the player that finishes his casting first will always have higher Enmity peak than the one that finished last; even if the final enmity results the same.

However; the player that took his time (Lower Enmity peak) is also less efficient (Time-wise); and more prone to safety given a real situation; and also prone to need more spells. You said this yourself.


But what happens when you add both conclusions? Simple, to the exact same thing I said earlier:
Aggresive+Efficient curing can only be done at the expense of Enmity.

All of this nonsense was just to prove with arguments something that should be common knowledge by now.
Here's the comparison of what the 3 forms of healing (Regens/Cures/Curagas) sacrifice/gain when compared to the other two:

Safety = Others safety; MP = MP-Efficiency, Enmity = Your own enmity.

- Regens sacrifice Safety for MP and Enmity.
- Single Cures, sacrifice MP for Safety and Enmity.
- Curagas sacrifice Enmity for MP and Safety.

This isn't rocket science. It's nothing new either. In fact, it was even documented and sticky'd in an incredibly old topic back on 2005; before we even had the numbers/formulas to back it up.



Edited, Sep 4th 2009 3:40pm by Drakonite

I did Hydra a couple weeks ago with 7 people, just for fun. We had only three WAR/NINs for tanks so no fancy hate tools aside from vokes and plain old damage. I did not wear a single piece of extra enmity-reduction gear other than what I always use, which is probably somewhere between -15 and 20, I don't even know. I had to Benediction partway through and a few times I had to Esuna -> big Curaga to prevent Nerve Gas wipeage. I cured enough that nobody died. Guess how many times I pulled hate? Zero, zilch, nada. I actually thought I would on a few occasions but I never did. So once again, while everyone here theory-craft about how much enmity reduction gear is necessary, my personal experience has shown me that it's _often, but not always_ not very much at all.

Just imagine if I had a NIN/DRK tanking with Yonin and enmity+30 in gear, spamming stun, bind, poison, absorbs, ninjutsu etc. with the occasional Souleater/Last Resort thrown in. I don't think you guys are even aware of how much hate a good tank can generate and how quickly.

The thing is, the player that's taking his time, especially in a situation that requires a substantial number of spells, may have a higher average enmity over the same period of time.

(This obviously requires enough VE to be generated by "let's do all the spells as quickly as possible" to hit 10k before finishing - effectively, the spells that happen after that point are almost hate-free. If you know how to handle a situation like this - or if you're low on CE to begin with and your tank's enmity is mostly CE - this is potentially more valuable than enmity- gear. )

Be my guest and pull 5 quotes that show how overboard I've gone. Call me out on that, not on these ridiculous things such as fast cast tiers. I think that as you try to search for those quotes, you'll find that in most cases you'd simply read words into my mouth, such as this:
"Ultimately I think each person should go through this process, and I know you all are probably sick of hearing me say this... but do not equip enmity down except as a last resort."
and replying with:
"Quite the contrary. Having a healthy "Enmity" buffer is a very smart thing to do; it helps you be ready for when sh*t hits the fan."
When the two points are not contrary at all. When I say "don't equip enmity down except as a last resort," I'm not referring to equipping the absolute bare minimum amount to avoid pulling hate. I'm actually referring to the process of evaluating your equipment and casting habits, which was the topic of that entire post. This should've been apparent if you'd actually read it. Said another way: You should first see if there are practical and safe ways to change your casting habits to reduce enmity, and only after exploring every possibility should you resort to Enmity Down. It should be your last ditch effort at keeping safe enmity levels, not your first as most WHM view it. Most WHM if they pull hate during a fight their automatic response is, "I need more Enmity Down!" This is not always the case. This is how it can become a crutch, when people take this point of view.

*Note that I said "safe enmity levels," this is something I could see you skimming over and not really seeing for what it means. Safe enmity levels doesn't mean 5 VE away from pulling hate. It means safe. It means you should be able to react to situations and not be constrained by your enmity.

I reality, I think that our opinions are not very different, Drak. You just seem to think I'm saying some very outrageous things that I'm not saying at all, and do not comprehend the nature of the message I'm trying to convey. Everything you said could've been an addendum to my posts and I would've probably replied "I agree completely!" (well, except the fast cast tier stuff) but you instead decided to challenge me on your own false assumptions, leading to making us both look as fools.


This would be true in exceptional situations, such as low-manning a mob that hits really hard, or fighting a mob with hate reset moves, or really strange hate mechanics like Tanihwa. In those situations, your safety net often can't be too large. I use Enmity-35 on Long-Bowed Chariot and I love how after a Homing Missiles hits the MNKs, they can pull hate off me again with one weaponskill after 5+ minutes of me casting spells.

However, outside those situations, my analogy stands. If Enmity-30 would result in never pulling hate in a given battle, what good does Enmity-40 do? Now, I understand your conflict, as haste is a fixed target at 25%, while enmity levels required to avoid pulling hate in a battle is a constantly moving target. So in that respect, they are slightly different. Picking the right amount of enmity down is more of a trial-and-error thing. However, the point I was trying to make was that Enmity Down always has a point beyond which it will do nothing for you, except allow you to be more lazy and wasteful in your casting without drawing attention to yourself.

I work in the software development world and there's a metaphor we often refer to which is "lowering the water level." New software development methodologies will often do little to actually improve your ability to write good software. More often what it actually does is lower the "water level," such that any flaws in the process that existed before without being noticed may be visible with the new methodology, giving us the opportunity to correct them and improve our efficiency. In addition to allowing you to safely perform more actions, Enmity Down also increases the water level and conceals problems in your play style. That's why it's a good idea to lower the water level from time to time and see if anything gets exposed. There's nothing wrong with raising it right back up again if you find that the things which pull hate are things which really can't be safely avoided or done another way. However, it's important not to raise the water level as a reflex. It should be a very well-thought-over decision.


I'll borrow a page from Michelob on this one: Wrong.

Your assumption is based on a linear set of spells to cast. The whole point of what I was saying about Curaga can only be viewed if you look at the big picture. Let's say everyone gets hit for 250 damage, and you know more damage is coming in a minute or two. If you're doing individual Cure III's, then you'll be lucky to finish by the time the next wave of damage hits, and will be right back where you started spamming more Cures to keep your head above water, wasting MP and generating excessive enmity. If you instead use Curaga II, you will have a slight lull before the next wave of damage. You will be able to use this time to throw up some regens, Auspice, and other preventative spells. Thus, when the next wave of damage hits, your reaction won't need to be as severe as the person using single-target Cures as the regens and such will lower the severity of the situation for you. Thus, on the second wave of damage, you may cast a Curaga instead of Curaga II, while the single-target guy would still be spamming Cure III's and possibly IV's by this point if he gets too far behind.

So the correct version of your statement would be:
Given an infinite time frame, the same rate of enmity consumption, and the same rate of damage to the party, the player that uses Curagas will be sacrificing higher peak enmity on the short term for lower overall enmity on the long term in addition to greater overall MP efficiency.

Not necessarily.

Say you're both dropping spells for 800 VE apiece; one person is casting every 4 seconds, while the other person is casting every 8 seconds.

As long as fewer than 18 spells are cast under these conditions, yes, they both have the same average enmity over the course of this.

However, here's the figures just before #18:

* Fast caster: VE 9520
* Slow caster: VE 5440

The next cast of the spell is worth only 480 VE to the person who's chain-casting because of this - and even more importantly, any casts after that are only going to be worth 240 VE (the amount of VE lost in 4 seconds).

So, let's say that we take a 25-cast situation (1:40 for the fast caster, 3:20 for the slow caster). The fast caster gets 800 * 17 + 480 + 240 * 7 = 15760 total enmity in this span The slow caster gets 800 * 25 = 20000 total enmity.

The fast caster will take 2:46 2/3 to drop back to 0 VE; the slow caster will take 2:21 1/3 (they're at 8480 VE after the 25th cast).

* Fast caster: 15760/(4:26 2/3) = ~59.10 enmity/sec
* Slow caster: 20000/(5:41 1/3) = ~58.59 enmity/sec

...After doing some figuring it turns out that chain-casting in this situation does not ever give a lower enmity/sec during the casting and cooldown time. (If it weren't for that, after the 30th casting, the slow caster is also in the "capped VE" area, the fast caster would pull ahead around the 61st casting in this situation.) However, there is still a distinct difference in average enmity in this time frame.

If you pull hate during a zerg, you're WHM/DRK, using a KClub and a ridiculous amount of haste.

I hate to bring it up but I think 'sh*t is situational' kinda fits here.

If you have a great tank, a BRD/BLM landing double length Elegy, a RDM with good enfeebling skill and related merits in a long fight, life is going to be easier as a WHM you're going to be dealing with less crap over time.

If you have other supporting healers or WHMs in the alliance, life is going to be easier, no one person is going to be pulling hate because a barrage of Cure IIIs are going to be going off every time something happens.

I spend a proportion of my time being the sole WHM at low manned events. I have been involved in a variety of endgame activities and fights. Other events we're standing there with a full alliance with a ton of support. It just depends.

I don't feel I go to extremes with my -ENM, I feel my overall setup is balanced. It gets tweaked when new gear or abilities come out.

There are so many possible setups for the events we all attend - depending on what yours is, will impact hugely on how you gear yourself.

I do agree with Perg that it doesn't hurt to review your gear periodically. I do it a lot as I learn more about my job and have access to new gear.

Right!

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 2:10am by Phaulken

Skimming through this thread again...



I really don't understand this comment. That's like saying enmity+ is useless for tanks until they lose hate...

It's called a preventative measure. You wear it early so buildup is lessened. You're not supposed to put that stuff on only after you've already drawn hate.

You pretty much explained the second half of the comment, "by the time you need it, it's far too late to equip it." The first part of the quote alludes to the fact that enmity down itself does nothing to benefit your spells. It doesn't make them cost less MP, cast faster, last longer, or be more potent. This creates an inherent conflict:

1. The nature of enmity down is such that you won't know you don't have enough until it's too late to equip more. This leads to the tendency to equip slightly more than is necessary, just to give yourself a safe margin. (There are many stats like this; Adding accuracy when you're already at 95% hit rate is pointless.)

2. If you take this to the extreme and equip way too much enmity down, you will never know it. There is no way to discover your current enmity level, or how much more enmity the tank has than you. At the end of a fight, you may have been one cast short of pulling hate, or you may have had one tenth as much as the tank. (In the analogy to accuracy, folks have parsed and calculated and determined the amount of accuracy needed for most different events, but you simply cannot do this with enmity down as it's so circumstantial.)

This is what makes the nature of enmity down so confusing, that was the point of my comment.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 2:17pm by Pergatory