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anyone ever whm/dnc front line?Follow

#1 Aug 21 2009 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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just curious, just hit 67rdm and for polly 60/67 have been /dnc, and yes usually main heal. i've had a very good experience with it, and just wonder if there are any whm melee's out there?

the reason i ask is, and most parties i go to do not realize this, but 50+ most exp mobs ie; birds/crabs are aspirable. so, aspir samba, yes please! could be a viable source of refreshe for a whm in a party with a good dd setup.

pardon my interruption if this has been posted before =(^.^)=
#2 Aug 22 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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I tried it. I was not able to recover mp through aspir samba fast enough to make it worthwhile to come off the back line where I could heal mp back.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 11:31am by Thydonon
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#3 Aug 22 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Really, all Aspir Samba amounts to for WHMs is an extra ~1.6mp/tick.

So /DNC beats /SMN, and it beats /BLM if you're spending less than ~500mp/minute (which you should be)...

...but it's still behind /SCH unless you're spending less than ~210mp/minute (probably less if you take Sublimation into account).

Think of it more as a nice little supplement to Mystic Boon, not a reliable source of MP.
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#4 Aug 22 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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With Aspir Samba, Mystic Boon, and the MP you save via waltzes, it probably would surpass /SCH in terms of MP conservation... IF you have a good enough melee equip set to get the hitrate to make up for the loss of Sublimation and Light Arts. Haven't tried it myself, but it sounds pretty fun.

I guess you would make your Dark Knights or Blue Mages happy, though. Good luck convincing the rest of the party, though. XD

edit: me grammar bad

edit again: The more I think about it, the more it sounds like a bad idea. Some 'regular' melee jobs have a hard enough time reaching the 95% accuracy rate on Greater Colibri. I think a WHM is going to whiff waaaaaaaay too much for it to be even close to worthwhile.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 3:18pm by chewzer
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#5 Aug 22 2009 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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The whiffing was the biggest problem when I tried it. The other two were that the gearing that I did for accuracy required me to take off healer equipment and the casting I did stopped the aspir samba.

I know, it's a let down.

Please, somebody find a way to make me wrong! I've been itching to front line my whm. :D

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 3:34pm by Thydonon
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#6 Aug 23 2009 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
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With Aspir Samba, Mystic Boon, and the MP you save via waltzes, it probably would surpass /SCH in terms of MP conservation... IF you have a good enough melee equip set to get the hitrate to make up for the loss of Sublimation and Light Arts. Haven't tried it myself, but it sounds pretty fun.


Using Waltzes is actually worse than simply saving TP for Mystic and using that MP to cure.

Let's grab a 150 Mystic as our base. A Waltz II would slow down your next mystic by 35TP and cure 170ish(Base) TP. Using our 150 base: this is costing you 52MP; which would be a Cure 3 for ~190(Base) and 6 extra MP.

And aspir samba won't outweigh Sublimation at all. Not to mention Aspir Samba is unusable with Auspice (No Accu/Enlight if you use it). All of this on top of losing Light Arts's bonuses, Penury, and Aspir.

All in all, /SCH + Mystic looks like a much better "Melee Healer" than /DNC with Waltzes/Sambas.



Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 11:57pm by Drakonite
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#7 Aug 24 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Not to mention Aspir Samba is unusable with Auspice (No Accu/Enlight if you use it)


Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a discussion in the DNC forums about EN-effects and sambas? The discussion was about the Ogre Jambiya augments with en-effects. If I am recalling correctly the daze effect from the samba is still ON the mob, thereby giving the other front-line members of the party the samba effect, and you being the only one that doesn't see it.

Now personally I haven't tried this although whm is 75 and dnc is 52 so I could, I just haven't thought about trying it.

But as I think about it more, when you use Auspice, the whole pt gets the acc boost and en-light/holy or w/e it is. So would it then overwrite the ability to draw from the samba although the mob still has the daze effect for the whole party?

I honestly don't know as my whm is only used in Dynamis and sometimes for missions these days... and with my filters on I cannot see if the en-effect procs from other pt members. Guess I need to do more research...

But anyway, just my random thoughts. Curious to know how this ends up working one way or the other.
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#8 Aug 24 2009 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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I thought, and I may be wrong here, that the only players that get the en-light effect from auspice are white mages who have misery up.

I don't even have my whm up to 55 yet to get the spell, so I am by no means certain of this.
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#9 Aug 24 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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I'm 99% sure the Enlight/Accuracy bonuses only applies to someone with "Afflatus: Misery" up. So pretty much reserved to us WHM's.

As a fun fact; it seems like the Enlight effect is calculater per-hit. That is; in order to get more Damage from the Enlight you need to keep your Enhancing magic on you. Can't just cast in Full enhancing and then swap out.

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#10Sir Crystan, Posted: Aug 24 2009 at 8:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No one's yet mentioned it, so I will. /DNC might lack the MP restoring abilities, but it does have cures. Using your TP to cure will reduce the strain on your MP total, perhaps offsetting the loss in Refresh.
#11 Aug 25 2009 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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Sir Crystan wrote:
No one's yet mentioned it, so I will. /DNC might lack the MP restoring abilities, but it does have cures. Using your TP to cure will reduce the strain on your MP total, perhaps offsetting the loss in Refresh.

Though whether it's viable enough to actually make us frontliners, I couldn't possibly say.


Oh?

Drakonite wrote:
Using Waltzes is actually worse than simply saving TP for Mystic and using that MP to cure.

Let's grab a 150 Mystic as our base. A Waltz II would slow down your next mystic by 35TP and cure 170ish(Base) TP. Using our 150 base: this is costing you 52MP; which would be a Cure 3 for ~190(Base) and 6 extra MP.

And aspir samba won't outweigh Sublimation at all. Not to mention Aspir Samba is unusable with Auspice (No Accu/Enlight if you use it). All of this on top of losing Light Arts's bonuses, Penury, and Aspir.

All in all, /SCH + Mystic looks like a much better "Melee Healer" than /DNC with Waltzes/Sambas.
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#12 Aug 26 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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MaraficeEye wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a discussion in the DNC forums about EN-effects and sambas? The discussion was about the Ogre Jambiya augments with en-effects. If I am recalling correctly the daze effect from the samba is still ON the mob, thereby giving the other front-line members of the party the samba effect, and you being the only one that doesn't see it.


True, but a portion of the point whm/dnc is for the self-refresh from Aspir Samba. While other party members are gaining the effect of the samba, you aren't.

Quote:
But as I think about it more, when you use Auspice, the whole pt gets the acc boost and en-light/holy or w/e it is. So would it then overwrite the ability to draw from the samba although the mob still has the daze effect for the whole party?


The whole party gets Subtle Blow. Auspice only grants the enlight and accuracy buff to a WHM in Afflatus: Misery.

From personal experience, WHM/DNC works - sort of. Pre-75. If you're earning the TP and have a decent enough Refresh (either through buffs or through accuracy and aspir), then yes, /DNC can supplement your healing with TP, whil saving your MP for Hastes and Cure Vs.

Mystic Boon changes the numbers, however.

Assuming Hume WHM75/DNC37, nekkid but for a Darksteel Maul:
VIT62 MND68 CHA69* Healing Skill 276
assume self-target - difference will emerge on pld, drk, sam, war

Cure III: 46mp, 194hp, 4.2h/m
Curing Waltz II: 35tp, 162hp, 4.62h/m**

Curing Waltz, straight on, is barely more efficient per point, and holds true as long as your Mystic Boon return is less than 1mp per tp - i.e. if your average Boon over parse is less than 100 dmg. The break point, if I've got the math anywhere near correct, is if your Boons are reliably doing 110 damage or more. In that case, saving the TP for MP (to heal HP) appears to be more efficient.

*numbers taken from Furen's Cure Calc and FFXI Stat Calculator - I'm a Linguistics person. Math isn't always my strongest suit, so correct at will.

**EDIT: Drakonite caught a complete math fail on my part.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 1:15pm by kasandaro
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#13 Aug 26 2009 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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kasandaro wrote:
Assuming Hume WHM75/DNC37, nekkid but for a Darksteel Maul:
VIT62 MND68 CHA69* Healing Skill 276
assume self-target - difference will emerge on pld, drk, sam, war

Cure III: 46mp, 194hp, 4.2h/m
Curing Waltz II: 35tp, 195hp, 5.58h/t


Curing Waltz follows a very different formula than cures. Furen's calculator doesn't have it yet.
The actual formula for Curing Waltz II for /DNC is:

Amount Healed = floor(((Target's VIT + Caster's CHR)*0.250 + 130),1)


Plugging in your numbers; this gives us a Curing Waltz II of 162HP on yourself.



Also. Keep in mind that my earlier analysis was only a comparison between a WHM/DNC's Curing Waltz II vs his own Cure III.
Doing this comparison against a WHM/SCH's healing power would obviously turn the balance even more in favor of Mystic+Cures.



Edited, Aug 27th 2009 12:30am by Drakonite
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#14 Sep 29 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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I've found Whm/Dnc is great for one specific situation, duoing with a dragoon. In this situation Drg curing efficiency murders ours, so whm is relagated to a support role, focusing on aspir samba, buffing, and debuffing, while the Drg handles cures and the vast majority of the damage dealt. We were in the Fowling Earring NM's camp in Wajoam woodlands, and were easily outkilling repops, had we been at leypoint the two of us would have easily chained endlessly. The only break we had was when Fowling Earring NM popped, and I changed to Paladin to kill it, then it was back to lesser birds and level sync.

Far as regular parties go, Its worth considering if you're in a fast-paced, refresh stacked party, otherwise we just spend too much time sitting in hMP gear. I'm pretty sure I'll be sticking to /Sch, possibly /Nin at 75 for mystic boon spam with prudence wand.

/Edit: Subjob clarified

Edited, Oct 2nd 2009 12:06am by pieceofsoap
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#15 Sep 30 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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this may not be fully viable in a party situation, but it is fun in a nms, quests, etc.

I was helping with coffer keys and such and i could keep my mp full with just mystic boom, so with sambas be even easier, and then we can finally bust out some nasty hexastrikes.
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#16 Oct 01 2009 at 5:09 AM Rating: Decent
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I've found Whm/Sch is great for one specific situation, duoing with a dragoon. In this situation Drg curing efficiency murders ours, so whm is relagated to a support role, focusing on aspir samba, buffing, and debuffing


Not to be **** retentive, but WHM/SCH does not have aspir samba. Did you mean WHM/DNC?


#17 Oct 01 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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tequerio wrote:
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Quoted Text
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I've found Whm/Sch is great for one specific situation, duoing with a dragoon. In this situation Drg curing efficiency murders ours, so whm is relagated to a support role, focusing on aspir samba, buffing, and debuffing


Not to be **** retentive, but WHM/SCH does not have aspir samba. Did you mean WHM/DNC?
Seems like he meant that WHM/SCH isn't good in that scenario, so WHM/DNC would be. Though really, a good drg/mage shouldn't be having MP issues anyway.

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 1:33pm by bsphil
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#18 Oct 01 2009 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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tequerio wrote:
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I've found Whm/Sch is great for one specific situation, duoing with a dragoon. In this situation Drg curing efficiency murders ours, so whm is relagated to a support role, focusing on aspir samba, buffing, and debuffing


Not to be **** retentive, but WHM/SCH does not have aspir samba. Did you mean WHM/DNC?




Whoops, yes, I meant Whm/Dnc.
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