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#1 Aug 14 2009 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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Hey all,

So, I'm thinking about dusting off the whm and coming out to heal for a bit. I play whm/sch with the usual run of gear, but I am curious about the Medicine Ring.

I know the latent only triggers when hp is 75% or less, but I don't see any way to force my hp that low at level 51 through gear swapping. I could go from ether/electrum to medicine/mana, but even that isn't going to be enough. And I need it to be a gear swap so I can hmp.

Has anyone figured this out? I couldn't find a thread in here about it. Medicine rings go for 8k on Pandy (I picked one up today, they aren't up for sale often) but this seems to be as valuable as a Sorc Ring.

Thanks in advance!
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#2 Aug 14 2009 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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At level 50; there isn't enough -HP gear around to lower the HP enough via macros. And WHM's natural Auto-Regen makes it harder to try other means. It becomes viable at level 73; when Zenith enters the picture.

BUT! As a word of warning: I'd avoid it unless you're a Galka or Elvaan. Taru's shouldn't even think about using it.

You generally don't want to forcefully lower your HP as a WHM. Dying on WHM is much more harmful than dying on BLM. And I wouldn't trust my life to a WHM sporting 600 HP.


This doesn't mean that the ring is useless however. It is excelent for your -Damage reduction set; since you'll typically press that when getting hit. It'll allow a small boost after getting beat up; and even help toping your HP back up.





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#3 Aug 14 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Medicine Ring gets the most mileage in three situations:

1) Campaign when people aren't pulling hate off you;
2) Any other soloing; and
3) Situations where you have a good reason to be in AoE range.
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#4 Aug 14 2009 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
BUT! As a word of warning: I'd avoid it unless you're a Galka or Elvaan. Taru's shouldn't even think about using it.


I strongly disagree with you. I'm a Taru and I use Medicine Ring all the time. The correct warning to give would be to analyze your situation before attempting to use it. Are you taking hate? Are you getting hit with AoEs? What are your surroundings like (potential mob agro)? There are plenty of times where you will NEVER get hit and using a Medicine Ring will make no difference to your safety, regardless of race. It is a situationally great piece.

Edit:

Quote:
Medicine Ring gets the most mileage in three situations:

1) Campaign when people aren't pulling hate off you;
2) Any other soloing; and
3) Situations where you have a good reason to be in AoE range.


My best useage of my Medicine Ring comes in merit parties where mobs die really fast and you have literally no chance of taking hate. Other places where it shines are HNM fights where placement of the mob goes to your advantage. The best example of this is Dark Ixion. Set your mages up on a ledge and they are totally free and clear of danger for the entire duration of the fight.

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 4:24pm by michelobmidgard
#5 Aug 15 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's going to be a while until you can trigger your latent for Med Ring, which is a good thing. Medicine Ring is not to be used lightly.

I keep mine with me as 75WHM, and carry a convert set with me to trigger it. However, it's still very rare that I actually use it. Only in situations where I feel very secure with my party/alliance, or I'm already in yellow from an AOE, and I'm going to Curaga.

A WHM putting themselves at risk is putting everybody at risk.
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#6 Aug 15 2009 at 10:40 PM Rating: Good
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A WHM putting themselves at risk is putting everybody at risk.


This. A thousand times this.



michelobmidgard wrote:
The best example of this is Dark Ixion. Set your mages up on a ledge and they are totally free and clear of danger for the entire duration of the fight.


Dark Ixion... Seriously? Do you like; never cast Barthundra or something?


Quote:
The correct warning to give would be to analyze your situation before attempting to use it.

Quote:
I'm a Taru and I use Medicine Ring all the time.


Why do you go out of your way to saying "Analyze the situation"; and then proceed to ignore your own warning and use it "All the time".

Again; I'd never trust a Healer running around with 550ish HP. Not as a tank and certainly not as a Co-WHM.
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#7 Aug 15 2009 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Be smart about when to use it and it's great.

This of course depends on what kinds of things you use your WHM for.

It's worth noting that if you are using this ring for Cura, if your own Cura heals you back to white HP, your heal on yourself will be boosted by the ring but it will not be for the rest of your party. Apparently, the heal on yourself is calculated first before it is on everyone else.

It's kinda like a RDM using Joyeuse with Fencer's Ring; if he double attacks and the first hit would keep him below 100 TP but the second hit would put him over it, the Enspell damage for the first hit will be boosted but it will go down on the second.


Quote:
Why do you go out of your way to saying "Analyze the situation"; and then proceed to ignore your own warning and use it "All the time".


I don't think "all the time" was meant to be taken 100% literally. He was just saying that while you saying Taru should never use the ring, he is Taru and he does.

Taru has the easiest time activating LV50 latent rings anyway, so...

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 2:58am by Fynlar
#8 Aug 16 2009 at 6:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Fact: A non-taru using a latent ring still has more/similar HP to a taru.* By this logic, all taru WHM must be worthless risks to the party.

Perhaps it's a bit different for White Mage in terms of death, but I used the BLM ring extensively. Yes, I'm aware a BLM dying is not a big deal, but I cannot think of a single situation where I died specifically because of the ring. I was either going to die anyway(Dead tank, lots of accumulated hate) , or hit so hard that a couple hundred HP would be rendered completely meaningless.

Also, Stoneskin. So that 550 hp should, realistically, be somewhere between 700 and 900. (I give the lowball estimate due to the possibility of Sublimation taking it's toll.) Factor in blink as well, and...

Well, it seems to come down to either having so much hate that a few HP won't mean anything, or simply getting one shotted. A non-taru WHM with stoneskin up should still have 1000+~ effective HP, no?

I was planning to use the ring myself as soon as I can force it, so I can't help but ask. Having used the others, the risk of death seems vastly inflated; obviously, if you expect to get hit hard with AoE's, it's a very simple matter of not using it that fight.

So, in a situation where you're not constantly taking AoE damage, what's the harm? Especially for a non-taru..

*(This assumes the same gear. It's going to be very similar. Still, if 'equal HP to a taru' is a 'needless risk', then what does that say for every taru WHM?)

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 10:48am by ItsAMyri
#9 Aug 16 2009 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Fact: A non-taru using a latent ring still has more/similar HP to a taru.* By this logic, all taru WHM must be worthless risks to the party.


You said it, not me. I cannot explain how happy I am as a mithra, non-taru white mage. I've survived dozens of attacks that have left me at less than 100 MP. It's basically an everyday occurrence.

The problem with all the "as long as you know you won't pull hate" arguments for using the ring is that you DON'T know when you'll be pulling hate. If the tank just drops dead, through your inaction or not, you may be unpleasantly surprised to find yourself in second place on the hate list simply by doing your job. And this is without considereing all the blindsided AoEs or getting a hate spike from healing that you could possibly predict and are a regular occurance for any serious WHM.

The inescapable auto-refresh also makes using the ring a burden. Doubly so for me, since I largely fulltime marduk hands with the regen effect. Having to play with macro swaps to get your HP latent to activate takes time and attention away from doing the parts of the job that often require lightning reflexes.

You can't even rely on stoneskin for added protection because of sublimation. That 200+ stoneskin you think you have is constantly being eaten away at. It might offer you next to no projection, it's really hard to say. The only way to be sure is to be constantly recasting it, and, not only does that again take time and effort, but it also totally erodes the MP savings the medicine ring gives you in the first place.

The only times this danger isn't true are on activities that are so basic that you don't need the ring. Or, said another way, the only time you can safely use the ring is when you don't need it.

I have a friend on game who, I am not ashamed to say, is a better white mage than I am. He's used this medicine ring as much as he could, and it's gotten HIM into trouble. If one of the best healers on the entire Sylph server that understand the job like only a totally obsessive can... if he occasionally gets killed trying to use the ring, than I make absolutely no recommendation to the average, run of the mill player to use it. You're putting your life, and the lives of your parties and alliances, in jeopardy all to see slightly higher epeen numbers.
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#10 Aug 16 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Erecia wrote:
The only times this danger isn't true are on activities that are so basic that you don't need the ring. Or, said another way, the only time you can safely use the ring is when you don't need it.
Eh, I'd say that the other time you can safely use it is when you know that (1) you have the potential of dying frequently with no penalty and (2) things are hitting hard enough that you drop frequently into triggering it, but not hard enough that you're in two- or three-shot territory.

Which (surprise!) is pretty much how Campaign works.
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#11 Aug 17 2009 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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I can see the case for using it in merits over a lot of other things but in all honesty I just don't like this ring for WHM. It very much depends on what you are doing and I can see that it might be fun in Campaign but in most of the fights I am involved in, the taru are first on the floor and I have no desire to join them.

Also for me, it would take up a slot which is better used. I pair the tamas ring with a trooper's ring most of the time, only switching in Aqua and Balrahn's when needed for Cure V and enfeebles.

Yes, a good stoneskin will save your **** but there are many times when your MP and time is better spent curing others than ssing yourself, even with Celerity. My thinking is that the more -ENM I pile on the lower I stay on the hate list and that will save my **** and everyone else's.

I remember making a conscious effort to stay at or close to 1k HP as a Hume in dynamis and that + the -ENM I pile on kept me alive and consequently our tank party alive for far longer. I remember being the last WHM standing on many occasions. I tend to stay away from anything that reduces my HP, my only exception is Morgana's and I still hate that it does but I'm sat at 970 ish HP /SCH. I've taken Devotion, Martyr & Misery as further hints that HP is good ;)

The fact is, whilst this ring is situationally useful, Cure potency means nothing when you're dead. I can see a case for using it if you're a galka or elvaan whm where you want to stretch your MP as far as poss and have the HP, but most of the time I wouldn't touch this ring if a Hume/Mithra and I think taru, should just step away from the shiny thing...

If cure potency is important to you (and it should be) go for Roundel, Aristo and the MKD hat. If I were a taru I'd focus more on survivability to exploit that enormous MP pool for longer.

Oh.. and any WHM wearing this in Einherjar or Dynamis is an idiot.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 10:16am by eldelphia
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#12 Aug 17 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, I agree with most of the other long-timer WHM posters: Medicine Ring is more trouble than it's worth. I've had one since I first hit the 50's as a WHM, which is about 4 years now. I used to carry it on me always, and swap it in as soon as I hit yellow HP and keep it on until auto-regen brought me out of yellow. However, as my experience in WHM duties improved over the years, I find myself using the ring less and less. Currently it sits in my mog satchel, and while I do remove it from time to time in case I need it, I haven't actually equipped it in at least 2 years. I've since decided that this is an item for Spellcast users. If using it comes 100% totally free, then awesome, use it. If it costs you any brainpower or any intentional decrease in HP, then it's probably not worth it and may well get you or your alliance-members killed.
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#13 Aug 17 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Why do you go out of your way to saying "Analyze the situation"; and then proceed to ignore your own warning and use it "All the time".


I didn't mean that I full-time it...

Quote:
Dark Ixion... Seriously? Do you like; never cast Barthundra or something?


Dark Ixion... Do your tanks like; not know how to avoid getting hit by the Thunder moves? No, no one is in range at all support-wise in that fight, ever.
#14 Aug 17 2009 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I will go against a lot of people here, but i will say this: You should have one, and it should be on your standing set.

Why? The same reason you should use a earth staff on your standing set. Or a Umbra Cape. Or Goliard Pants.

When you are on your standing set, you are by definition not casting. That means that casting stats or enmity have no bearing at all on it. The only thing that can be happening when you are in your standing set is getting hit.

That said, dont try to activate the ring. If you ever get smacked more than a couple times, it will be active.

This way you will have the latent active when it is the most important ( IE: you are getting low on HP), but you wont sacrifice any hp to have it.
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#15 Aug 17 2009 at 11:53 PM Rating: Good
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Medicine ring is alot like the cura bonus on afflatus misery.

It can be very mp efficient but the way to get there is putting yourself at risk.

I can see this being a macro swap piece, but the amount of effort it takes to either switch to a new pallete or what have you seems to be not worth the extra cure potency. In a hectic situation, swapping out your normal rings for a medicine ring isn't exactly at the top of my list.

And the one area where I can see this getting a lot of use is the chariots in salvage or in nyzul/merit parties where whm is in tight quarters with dds, but in there, I have my (always on) tamas for -enmity and overall mage stats and Balrahn's for refresh effect.

By no means a poor choice if someone has the 3rd party tool to make this work, but from a purely basic macro switching exercise, it's probably too much trouble for what it's worth. WHM curing requires quick reflexes. The time spent switching to the medicine ring palette for that extra cure could mean death.


Edited, Aug 18th 2009 12:55am by Dekusutaa
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#16 Aug 18 2009 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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When i start a Cure and see i'm in yellow, i just press ctrl-e, have the cursor already over the ring2-field, have to press enter and my medicine ring is already at the top.
Like this i can switch to medicine before the spell goes off.

My normal macros later reequip balrahn's.
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#17 Aug 18 2009 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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'Putting yourself at risk' to activate the ring would be silly. As with any latent ring, you won't get much use out of it if you can't force it to be active.

Forcing the ring, assuming you're not stuck with sluggish, six line macros, is either an issue of pressing one macro to swap into -hp and one to swap out.. or just having long cure macros. It'd be entirely possible to do a swap/reswap in the time it takes to cast a cure.

I could see making two macro sets, one that does this and one that does not, to adapt to whether or not you expect any risk.

As for normal, old macros.. well, I'm not sure why anyone would force themselves through that sort of torment. (Unless they just don't swap gear.)
#18 Aug 18 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I have all 6 of my party members mapped permanently into macros and it goes for Cure 3 and IV, so that's 12 macros dedicated just to cures.

Using medicine ring would mean I dedicate another pallete of 12 macros for that. Like I said, there is a 3rd party tool to make that easier and if you can do it, that's fine.

But for me, I'm fine with what I have. Curing in yellow is usually less than 10% of my activity anyways and the first thing I do when I'm yellow is to cure myself up to full.



Edited, Aug 18th 2009 4:44pm by Dekusutaa
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#19 Aug 19 2009 at 4:35 AM Rating: Good
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I have all 6 of my party members mapped permanently into macros and it goes for Cure 3 and IV, so that's 12 macros dedicated just to cures.


I boggled at this...

How do you handle curing people outside your party or alliance? Smiley: eek

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 12:37pm by eldelphia
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#20 Aug 19 2009 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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eldelphia wrote:
Quote:
I have all 6 of my party members mapped permanently into macros and it goes for Cure 3 and IV, so that's 12 macros dedicated just to cures.


I boggled at this...

How do you handle curing people outside your party or alliance? Smiley: eek

Or anything aside from curing for that matter? With so many macros dedicated to cures it seems like it must be really cumbersome to cast anything else. I used to have Cure macros for every person in the party, until about Lv60-70. Then I changed to <stpc> and never looked back. I currently have 3 macros on my main palette for Cures, Cure 3/4/5. I don't even have a macro for 1 or 2 anymore. I also have Paralyna, Erase, Silena, Esuna, Haste, Flash, and Stoneskin. The rest of my macros on the main set are just equipment swapping and/or alternate macro sets such as enfeebling, nukes/buffs, etc. I'm able to access most things pretty quickly this way. Different strokes for different folks, though.

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 8:52am by Pergatory
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#21 Aug 19 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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eldelphia wrote:
Quote:
I have all 6 of my party members mapped permanently into macros and it goes for Cure 3 and IV, so that's 12 macros dedicated just to cures.


I boggled at this...

How do you handle curing people outside your party or alliance? Smiley: eek

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 12:37pm by eldelphia


I have Specialized <stpc> macroed cure 2,3,4 and V, I can also on occasion drive it by the menu, and on windower there's special key combos to target alliance members similar to F1-F6

The 6x2=12 permanently mapped keys for Cure 3-4 are for the Party members, which is assumed to have priority on my cures. It's really much faster that doing F1-6 or tabbing to the right player then hitting cure for mundane things like cure management in end game fights. And surely, if people can drive cures via menus, and I know many WHM who do this (and I do this myself on occasion when curing outside), doing it faster with mapped macros can't be an issue.

But it's a style I've been doing over 5 years now and frankly haven't seen faster methods to cure in-party than than solution I have. And with the expansion in macro books in the past year, space is not even an issue anymore.


Pergatory wrote:


Or anything aside from curing for that matter?


Pergatory, as I noted, I only do it for Cure 3 and 4. All my other spells including the -na spells are <stpc> driven and the time lag is noticable to me because I am used to the instantaneous no targeting spell casting on the curing side of my activites in-party. This is why Esuna is so **** nice.

I'm not here to sell my style of macroing, but since it's boggled your minds, I'm here to defend it. I suggest you try it out for 1 or 2 essential spells you think you'll cast often for your party and it becomes second nature and fast!

And I can say with little doubt that I cast Cure III a lot.


Edit: you went from Good to Decent. Not my doing.


Edited, Aug 19th 2009 5:35pm by Dekusutaa

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 5:36pm by Dekusutaa
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#23 Aug 20 2009 at 12:39 AM Rating: Good
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Lord Dekusutaa wrote:
the first thing I do when I'm yellow is to cure myself up to full.
Funny, the first thing I do when I'm in yellow is figure out what the **** I did to pull hate and quit doing it for a moment.

Or hit Flash and then Stoneskin if I feel like trying to grab a little bit in the way of shield skillups.
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#24 Aug 20 2009 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
But it's a style I've been doing over 5 years now and frankly haven't seen faster methods to cure in-party than than solution I have. And with the expansion in macro books in the past year, space is not even an issue anymore.


I wasn't being enormously critical when saying I was boggled - I just find I do something similar to Perg but it's always interesting to see how people do things. I've never once bound someone's name into a macro :)

I found that st macros are very slow too but I couldn't restrict myself to party members only. Possibly because of the fact did 3+ years in dynamis as one of two WHMs in a 25-30man shell. So I guess I adapted. And I like to have critical spells on one palette.

I can imagine for your party that it's nice and quick but a royal pain for alliance healing. I do events where there are multiple alliances such as Einherjar and Dynamis and so I throw cures all over the place if needed.

I use stpt sparingly - erase/refresh/ballad. I never cast from the menu, I just hit the F keys and a macro.

I am considering copying over all my WHM macros and creating a set for certain 18man events with stal in but that's about it. My main palette is setup like this...

|Erase|Rest|Cure3|Stand|CureV|Silena|Poisona|Stona|Paralyna|Blindna|
|Curaga|Silence|Curaga3|RegenIII|Cure4|Haste|Repose|Esuna|Slow|Paralyze|

Then I have a Buffs palette one above main with Shell/Prot/Barspells/Stoneskin/Devotion gear+cure which I use for Dev and Martyr and then below my main I have Holy with a MAB set lol... and some other things like sacrifice.

What this means is I can be super quick with removing ~na and waking peeps but prolly not quite as fast as macroed cures. I'm just interested in how other mages do things :)

I use SCH JA by hitting Ctrl+J on WHM but when playing SCH I have some macroed.

And don't comment on why things are where they are, lol, that macro palette has evolved over years...


Edited, Aug 20th 2009 12:07pm by eldelphia
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#25 Aug 20 2009 at 5:50 AM Rating: Decent
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ctrl-1: Repose
ctrl-2: Regen III
ctrl-3: Flash / Holy / Banish III / Varying divine skill based spell.
ctrl-4: Haste
ctrl-5: Prectra/Shellra
ctrl-6: Silence
ctrl-7: Hmp Gear (press twice to get a longer macro with /macro set x)
ctrl-8: Idle Gear (press twice again)
ctrl-9: Dark-art/Aspir if /SCH
ctrl-0: Status (WHM - mp: <mpp> ect.)

alt-1: Erase/Esuna, depending on /SCH or not /SCH
alt-2: Cure2 <st>
alt-3: Cure3 <st>
alt-4: Cure4 <st>
alt-5: Cure5 <st>
alt-6: Dia II
alt-7: Slow
alt-8: Paralyze
alt-9: Penury
alt-0: Switch to barMACRO book (ctrl-5 to ctrl-0 for all elements). Get back with alt-0 again

At some point i started to have my macros for all jobs arranged like this.
On the alt-keys the "essentials" --> in WHM's case my cures and enfeebles,
and on the ctrl-keys all the "additional stuff" like gear swaps.
Also the more often i use a spell / more important for oshi.. , the more it's on the left side so i can reach it with my left hand only.
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#26 Aug 20 2009 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lord Dekusutaa wrote:
Pergatory, as I noted, I only do it for Cure 3 and 4. All my other spells including the -na spells are <stpc> driven and the time lag is noticable to me because I am used to the instantaneous no targeting spell casting on the curing side of my activites in-party. This is why Esuna is so **** nice.

Now this I find very interesting, it seems we are opposites! You have specific names in your cures and <stpc> in your -na spells, while I have <stpc> on my cures and <t> in my -na spells.

This is so I can target whoever needs it, usually with F1-6, and hit the macro with no additional keys for fastest response time, as status ailments can frequently kill people a lot faster than lack of cures. Thus far I've never met anyone who's able to land those faster than me, even with macros that have the person's name in it. Having to target the person doesn't slow you down that much if you're fast with the keyboard. Anyone outside my party I generally target by typing out "/ta name" and still can land -na spells faster than a semi-attentive mage. The reason I use <stpc> on Cures rather than <t> or a hard-coded name is because frequently I'll see a Cure is needed before it's needed. Thus I get the cursor ready over their head and once they are low enough HP, I hit enter and it fires. I'd say at least 50% of my Cures, I have them ready before the person is low enough to need them.

P.S. You also went from good to decent, I'll rate back up again as we may disagree but both arguments are constructive and insightful.
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