Redingote - Acc + Fast Cast?Follow

My only problem with the Fast Cast option on a WHM's Redingote is that you'll prolly only get recast out of it, because most WHMs don't wanna stand in it (lack of auto-refresh).

You could still put it in front of all your macro lines:

/equip body uglything
/ma "Cure V" spongebob

...and then you'd get the benefit to casting time.

But if you're just gonna wear it for recast, Goliard would be fine.

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For RDM, if there's no chance of dynamis, then sure, that's fine -- and less likely to get an auto-refresh to stand in (though there's always Mr.Vermy).

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For melee, that's great, except that Reverend Mail is sooooo much prettier! >:D

Anyway, realistically, I think that's a pretty good pair of augments, given the situation. :)

Oh, I thought this person didn't have RevCam, it can be kind of a pain to get, depending on how much endgame you do (what kinda shells you hang out in, that whole thing).

Nope, to clarify -- the not doing Dynamis was comment was meant in defense of BodyFastCast augment for use on RDM.

It's RelicBody or This, and no Dynamis means this.^^

The only reason NOT to wear this, then, on the RDM... would be Auto-Refresh (same conflict as WHM) -- however, unlike WHM who can get Auto-Refresh just from body slot (200~350k by server), RDM would need to either give up TWO FastCast slots (AF hat + Redingote) for AHable solution (Vermy), or find a way to get A.Body (prolly ein in his case, just a guess) which seemed a little unlikely just from the general vibe I got.

PHEW!

Yes, this ^^. She doesn't have Reverend, and it is indeed probably not likely for her - she doesn't really do the HNM type endgame stuff.

Plus, she's got this easily accessible ACP armor that she really doesn't know what to do with. Why bother even worrying about Reverend when you have a better option just sitting there free for the taking?



Why does it really matter if you're using the two augments together? Even by itself, the Acc+10 augment on Redingote (plus the base +5 MND as a WS modifier) is already better than any other non-Redingote WHM DD body, right?

And if you're comparing, Redingote and Reverend may indeed have the same Acc, but there's a +10 MND difference. Isn't that a pretty significant deal since MND is a WS modifier for Hexa and Mystic Boon (and a rather huge one for Boon)? Speaking as a MNK and PUP, I'd sure as hell jump to take +10 to a WS modifier stat over another piece of gear with identical Accuracy. And on a multi-hit WS, pairing Acc and MND makes Redingote particularly sexy (I'm thinking of Hexa here exactly the same way I think of Asuran Fists on MNK and Stringing Pummel on PUP).



Again, right on with your assumptions. She does do Einherjar and that's really the only way she'd get Dalmatica - but between drop rates, few Odin attempts, and getting in line behind probably 2-3 other mages with priority, she's not looking at having Dalmatica any time soon.


My question, I guess, is what the hell else to put on a Fast Cast body? The FC is nice for RDM, and at least situationally useful for WHM. The logical thinking in me says that FC is more useful for traditionally "mage" activities, as opposed to making an all-out DD body for messing around in campaign and trios with friends.

Enmity -5 seems like the most logical choice to me to pair with Fast Cast for a true casting piece, but honestly Enmity down doesn't sound like it's that huge. More of an, "oh well, nothing else to put on here" choice. So why not use the other augment to make an armor that (with the Acc augment alone) would eclipse any other non-Redingote WHM DD body? Seems like a better, "I might as well pick one more" choice than yet another Enmity- stat that probably isn't going to make a huge difference.

Choosing M.Acc +4 would essentially be for a fast casting enfeebling piece, as she's really never doing the RDM nuking thing. But isn't AF/AF+1 for both RDM and WHM better for enfeebling? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So what I'm essentially thinking is:
Fast Cast sounds nice, but I have no clue what else pair it with that's really going to provide that much benefit. Why not just use Fast Cast because it sounds useful enough on its own (for RDM in general, and for WHM at least situationally), and just use the second augment to make it double as a nice melee Acc armor. That may not make the "ultimate" WHM DD armor, but it's still a top tier DD piece for mages - and do you really have a good reason to need "ultimate" DD when you're just playing DD WHM to mess around with friends and solo/campaign?

I'd love to hear better suggestions, but what would those suggestions be, and what additional benefit (e.g. utility in more situations) would they give?

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 5:05am by Anza

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 5:07am by Anza

But ATT+10 is at most a ~2% Dmg increase. DA+2 and ATT+10 give more-or-less the same boost.

DW+3 is a static 3.9% increase

This, ofc if the WHM is melee-ing /NIN with Suppa, which is what I presume melee WHM's do?

If a WHM melee is around the 80% hit-rate, which for a B+ skill (considering fairly limited ACC armor in comparison to other jobs), high Tough + mobs will probably need some kind of ACC food.

Huh? How is:
*Acc+10 and MND+5 (Redingote, disregarding 2nd augment entirely)

the same as:
*Acc+7 DEX+2 STR+2 (Tabin +1) for WS?

(a) For Hexa Strike, STR and MND are both 20% modifiers. And since it's a multi-hit WS, the extra effectively 2 Acc (2DEX=1Acc) is a benefit making Redingote slightly better. Yes, I know fSTR is affected too, and I have only a basic understanding of fSTR - but 2 STR isn't gonna make a world of difference, and general rule of thumb for a multi-hit WS is 2 Acc > 2 STR. +10 Acc Redingote wins here over Tabin, even though it's fairly close. +10 Acc Redingote also wins over +10 Acc RevMail, by virtue of the WS modifier stat.

(b) For Mystic Boon, MND is a greater modifier than STR (50%/30%). Redingote clearly wins.

(c) For tp, again you're comparing 2 Acc to 2 STR. Standard melee logic, in equal numbers, Acc > STR. Redingote wins again. Haste 4% on Goliard compared to Acc+10 is a more interesting comparison for tp, and Goliard may be slightly better (they're pretty close though).

(d) Oh, and then there's the matter of cost. Remember that this is not for someone who wants to be the ultimate DD WHM - she wants the thing for casual play with friends and solo due to there being nothing that jumps out as a really awesome second "mage" augment for her jobs, and due to her not really having a good melee body. Free instead of dropping 600k is certainly relevant here.




I'm not saying you're forcing, and I do appreciate opinions. But what do you mean by "marginal"? Even with only one DD focused stat (Acc+10) and a second augment completely unrelated to DD, Redingote still beats or is at least on nearly equal footing to (such as in the case of comparing to Goliard for TP) every non-Redingote WHM DD body for TP and WS. For someone with no really good WHM DD body, it's a nice option to have.

I'm not proposing the best possible melee WHM body mainly because she's just using DD gear for fun - messing around with friends, campaign, etc. I'm quite aware that she could do Acc/Atk and have the ultimate WHM DD armor.



I'll ask point blank: What's really useful to pair with Fast Cast then? I know something like Enmity- is a "might as well use this" choice and isn't bad, but it's honestly not that terrific either.

Fast Cast is really the more appealing "mage" option for a WHM RDM, and the more practical choice for when she's actually doing anything serious. I just don't know what else to put on there in addition to Fast Cast that's really that much of a benefit.

(a) For WHM, FC would make this a situational macro piece for long casting spells, or for rare times where for whatever reason getting spells off quickly is a priority. Otherwise, Noble's, AF+1, and Errant can pretty much do the job. With that in mind, the second augment isn't gonna be doing a lot for WHM.

(b) For RDM (the secondary concern), FC would be pretty much for cures. AF takes care of enfeebles. My WHM friend here doesn't do Dynamis, so relic is out. Enmity down here would not be bad... but considering she doesn't really have hate issues and also that RDM is the secondary concern, doesn't seem like a huge deal. Having the option to hit stuff (especially on WHM, but RDM/NIN melee as well) would probably be all in all a more useful thing to have.

Don't get hung up on "OMG you're not taking advantage of both stats together". A MNK could use Kirin's Osode as a solid DD piece and get zero use from the +10MND on it. Then if that same MNK is doing Chi Blast stuff, the same Osode would be useful for the +10MND and the other DD stats would be completely irrelevant. The piece is still a good choice for either situation, even though the stats aren't ever all helping at the same time.


Also, I truly do appreciate all of the responses here and I'm not trying to be rude or combative at all. I've not seen anything yet that's a compelling justification to convince me not to go for the Acc/Fast Cast Redingote though. Seems like something would have come out by now if there was a really strong reason not to. Only thing I've seen is "it isn't THE BEST DD body". Well, OK, but that's not the point here. I'm looking for the best pair of augments for this player, who uses WHM and RDM and thinks of WHM DD as something for casual fun. With that in mind, by all means try to convince me if you think an option besides Acc/FC is better.

by your own admission -5% FC is "worthless", I'm telling you compared to readily and easily available alternatives a 5MND swing is negligible too, if you're smart enough to do the numbers on it yourself do me a favour and GO DO THEM.

Casual players don't need gear, your own warped reasoning makes any conversation to the contrary completely irrelevant. I can be a casual WHM butt-naked and still do my job absolutely fine. Apparantly since the fast cast or -enmity or +macc or +mab are worthless they have no value anyway, giving your ACP armour very little worth.

a FC -enm piece is a great Esuna piece, a FC +macc is a great repose piece, FC +MAB is a good divine magic nuking piece (due to high recasts), FC is fundamentally useful in some situations which you consider not worth mentioning, funnily enough the lolDD piece youre making is also not worth mentioning, this body will be a lot of unmentionably average equipment. And that's fine, but it doesn't require a serious thread about it.

Ironically, the proposed redingote augments of -FC +macc are better are more accurate than nashira body whilst keeping the same recast and better cast time.
But not only that, the nashira body is a BETTER dd body for whm due to the way +haste stacks (100%-x%haste = attack fraction), though ofcourse that particular piece wouldn't be as good at weapon skills it is a better overall dd piece.

Im tired of you jumping on your white knight moral bullcrap, you make assumptions about me and reword what I say to fit what you're thinking and not what is actually being said. I'm done talking to you