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Glyphs for baddies or good players or really busy fightsFollow

#1 Nov 12 2011 at 4:38 AM Rating: Good
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Glyph of Inquisition feedback
The intent is that it is not damage neutral. Yes, managing Inquisition should mean higher DPS, if you are exceptional at managing it. However, a lot of players find that they can’t operate their class at full effectiveness when they are actually in an encounter with all of the running around, target switching and other encounter mechanics that aren’t present when blasting away at a target dummy. One of the biggest differences we see between good guilds and best-in-the-world guilds is that the latter can maintain maximum DPS in almost any situation.

The hope by implementing a glyph like this (and we aren’t sure we will, which is why we want feedback) is that your empirical DPS with the glyph may be higher than your theoretical DPS without it. Players who ignored the glyph might do lower DPS (because they are mortal and sometimes fumble with Inquisition) than if they just used the glyph.

This is the kind of idea that, if it works, would be something we could do it for most classes and specs: trade off higher theoretical damage / tanking / healing for an easier rotation that might just mean higher effectiveness for some players. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)


I like the idea. Not sure all specs have an equivalent, Inq is a big dmg buff on a timer, but conceptually I like it.

Trade off x% DPS from buff to make sure you keep the buff at 100% uptime. But you can take a better DPS glyph if you can manage the buff sans glyph.

Having a glyph like that for most DPS specs would be great. Would let min/max uber skillz folks max sans glyph and let the others be able to do strong DPS while not standing in fire. Or even let the min/max people keep DPS up on fights that are more involved.

Opinions?
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#2 Nov 12 2011 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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Sounds more like "We don't want to fix inherent problems in classes, and are instead going to pass them off as intentional systems meant to differentiate between the elite and everyone else. So we are going to give you even less choice when it comes to character customization by creating a glyph that's essentially required for nearly every player."
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#3 Nov 12 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Sounds more like "We don't want to fix inherent problems in classes, and are instead going to pass them off as intentional systems meant to differentiate between the elite and everyone else. So we are going to give you even less choice when it comes to character customization by creating a glyph that's essentially required for nearly every player."

The "essentially required" part is true already of most prime glyphs. How many specs genuinely have more than 3 or 4 prime glyphs to choose from that are actually competitive?

I think it's interesting that they did what they did with Inquisition (short-term all holy damage buff) one expansion after they changed how druids worked with Savage Roar (buff to all damage to just buffing auto-attacks) and Mangle (12/18 sec buff vs 60 sec buff). I think it's actually a good idea to allow one set of glyphs to simplify a class's rotation at the cost of potential max DPS. More people doing more DPS can only be a good thing.
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#4 Nov 12 2011 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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If that was really the intention, I would agree. The fact that this is REALLY just them covering up problems with their class design is what I have an issue with.

Inquisition is actually a really good example. Every class (in theory) is meant to perform to about the same point. When you create a class mechanic that just takes an absurd amount of skill to perform (in the context of a relatively common in-game scenario), it's just stupid.

A lot of classes do have rotations that switch up based on how capable a person is.

The other problem is that this now a stigmatized badge that every Pally is going to be forced to wear on their toon. And it's true that this isn't fair, since according to Blizz only the very best Pallies aren't meant to use it, but that doesn't change the fact that you can look at a pally and tell that they aren't confident in their ability to play their class. Or it's going to get the connotation of being for the lazy, who want to simplify their rotation and sacrifice dps to do so. Etc.
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#5 Nov 12 2011 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If that was really the intention, I would agree. The fact that this is REALLY just them covering up problems with their class design is what I have an issue with.

Inquisition is actually a really good example. Every class (in theory) is meant to perform to about the same point. When you create a class mechanic that just takes an absurd amount of skill to perform (in the context of a relatively common in-game scenario), it's just stupid.

A lot of classes do have rotations that switch up based on how capable a person is.

The other problem is that this now a stigmatized badge that every Pally is going to be forced to wear on their toon. And it's true that this isn't fair, since according to Blizz only the very best Pallies aren't meant to use it, but that doesn't change the fact that you can look at a pally and tell that they aren't confident in their ability to play their class. Or it's going to get the connotation of being for the lazy, who want to simplify their rotation and sacrifice dps to do so. Etc.

The old Glyph of Mangle that added 6 seconds to the 12 sec Mangle debuff worked the same way, and I don't recall it being an issue then. Do we know exactly what they're doing to Inquisition? I know it was mentioned in the Q&A, but I haven't seen much else about it.

Other than improving the uptime on buffs, what classes can modify their rotation based on player skill? Mages can spec Arcane, Feral druids can work in extra Ferocious Bites pre execute-phase. Shadow Priests and Aff 'Locks can multi-DoT when there are multiple targets. What else am I missing?
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#6 Nov 12 2011 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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My real worry is that they are talking about adding a set of glyphs which you KNOW are quickly going to take on the perception of being "baddie glyphs."

My fear is that players who might really benefit from the glyph won't use it for fear of being thought "bad." And players who do the right thing and take the glyph might get berated for it.

Just not worth it, imo. Simply fixing the problem with the system is infinitely superior, imo.
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#7 Nov 12 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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Make all specs like Arcane. One or two button spam, simple CDs, minimal complexity, got it.
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#8 Nov 12 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
Make all specs like Arcane. One or two button spam, simple CDs, minimal complexity, got it.


I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make?
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#9 Nov 12 2011 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
My real worry is that they are talking about adding a set of glyphs which you KNOW are quickly going to take on the perception of being "baddie glyphs."

My fear is that players who might really benefit from the glyph won't use it for fear of being thought "bad." And players who do the right thing and take the glyph might get berated for it.

Just not worth it, imo. Simply fixing the problem with the system is infinitely superior, imo.


Can it be any worse than what's already happening to players with incredibly low DPS/HPS? I think offering players a choice is superior to saying,"We think your priorities are too complex, so we're making your class easier to play."

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Horsemouth wrote:
Make all specs like Arcane. One or two button spam, simple CDs, minimal complexity, got it.
I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make?

If complexity is the problem, and the solution is to have a simple rotation anyone can follow, then Arcane is the solution for every spec. Many mages complain about how loleasy Arcane is to play, to the point of it being boring. I don't want my DPS classes having their rotations nerfed so much they're boring; there's a reason Feral is my favorite DPS spec.
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#10 Nov 12 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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If a class is complicated because it was designed to be, it's one thing. I just have an issue with a half-assed "fix" that basically masks the core problems of a class. The best players learned how to keep Inq. up because they had to, because the mechanic had horrible synergy with many pieces of content. This just says they are fine letting those players have to work that hard, but are giving everyone else a pass.

And that's stupid to me. The class being that annoying on those encounters wasn't design, it was oversight. They are trying to structure this change like they are "giving" those players something. In reality, they are just **** them out of ever seeing an actual fix.
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#11 Nov 12 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If a class is complicated because it was designed to be, it's one thing. I just have an issue with a half-assed "fix" that basically masks the core problems of a class. The best players learned how to keep Inq. up because they had to, because the mechanic had horrible synergy with many pieces of content. This just says they are fine letting those players have to work that hard, but are giving everyone else a pass.

And that's stupid to me. The class being that annoying on those encounters wasn't design, it was oversight. They are trying to structure this change like they are "giving" those players something. In reality, they are just **** them out of ever seeing an actual fix.


The actual fix is L2Play you nub or homogenize every spec into a set up like arcane.

The glyph gives a 3rd option.

A feral example would be having FB add 2 seconds onto SR but doing x% less damage, making it easier to add DPS by squeezing in more FBs but not losing DPS by dropping SR. A good player knows when they can add FB, a less skilled player wont but wants to so the glyph helps add some DPS but not as much as learning when to work FB in while using a different glyph.
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#12 Nov 14 2011 at 4:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Horsemouth wrote:
Make all specs like Arcane. One or two button spam, simple CDs, minimal complexity, got it.

I've seen people fail at playing arcane mage, so this approach probably wouldn't help much.

I guess it depends on how wide spread it is, if the majority of players feel the need to use this (or gain more dps from doing so) then it won't be a negative thing. It just means that if you see someone without the glyph you'll know that they will either be super awesome or super bad. That seems to be what Blizz are aiming for, the top players can manage without but in general (and most people in the average pug will fit this category) you'll want the glyph.

I don't struggle with my Paladin (granted I haven't raided with her other than BH) but I would love a glyph that meant I didn't have to worry about SR on my druid as I can't get my head around feral dps. There are plenty of ways to pick out bad players (some more legitimate than others) even if glyphs like this do become a badge of shame it's one that I'll happily wear if I know it improves my personal dps, with the LFR finder I don't imagine I'll be trying to get into that many pugs individually and even if I was I'd rather go with a group that understands the logic behind such glyphs rather than people who see it and automatically think you must suck if you use it.
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