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[Mage] Mages in MoP: Every spec will be viable.Follow

#1 Nov 09 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Q: Is the Frost Mage ever going to be competitive in PVE? (I know it is within about 10% but it's still the lowest DPS spec in the game at the moment)
A: Part of why we are changing talents in 5.0 is to let every spec have a shot at getting good utility. This means we can abandon the current (and tired) model where some specs (Frost, Subtlety especially) have to trade off dps because they have good control / survivability / escape. The biggest difference between Frost, Fire and Arcane in 5.0 will be which spells (including procs and other mechanics) you use to do damage.


From the class Q&A going on currently. I'm very excited about this personally. Fire will probably still be RNG based, based on their comments on another question about Fire. But I really like that they're going to try and make every class/spec viable. Of course they didn't come right out and say that it will be for PvE and PvP, but they kinda implied it.

I just hope they don't tinker with Frost rotation too much. My only complaint is that Brain Freeze doesn't proc enough. Although I will say, that I've noticed my dps increasing by about 2k since I got my 4 piece. that was just on Domo though. I'll be able to better judge on Friday when I get to do an entire raid with my mage.

teehee

Edited, Nov 10th 2011 1:22pm by Xsarus
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#2 Nov 09 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I stopped believing everything they tell us about how specs are going to pan out before an expansion right after "Damage=ZOMG".
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#3 Nov 09 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
Yeah, that's a good point. I just tend to be a bit too optimistic for my own good.
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#4 Nov 09 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Was the Damage=ZOMG article the one on MEGA damage?

Also, Q&A for Druids says we'll get a new ability called Symbiosis, and according to whoever said it, it's going to "blow [our] minds". Way to avoid high expectations.
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#5 Nov 09 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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As long as Frost has a pet, I won't play it.

The ranged Frost Nova mechanic is just too clunky for me.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 5:40pm by IDrownFish
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#6 Nov 09 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
Yeah, it is rather annoying. I don't mind the pet, but I'd much prefer a ranged freeze ability and a FB buff over the pet. I have a macro with the freeze spell set up so that when I cast freeze, the pet "Follows" me. The only downside to this, is that I also have a macro for Frostbolt set up to make him attack my target. So if I try to use freeze and he's out of range, so I keep casting FB, there's really no progress. Smiley: lol
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#7 Nov 09 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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I would rather have Frostbite back.

Srsly.
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#8 Nov 09 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
**** frostbite, I want Winter's Chill back. Actually, **** Replenishment, I want Winter's Chill back.
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#9 Nov 09 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Winter's Chill was boring. Frostbite kicked ass.
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#10 Nov 09 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
Yeah but Winter's Chill gave a nice damage buff via crit, which would be helpful with frost's playstyle now.
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#11 Nov 09 2011 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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But Frostbite was awesomesauce for leveling, pvp, and doing end-game soloing content.
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#12 Nov 09 2011 at 7:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Frostbite and Winter's Chill. Win.
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#13 Nov 09 2011 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Was the Damage=ZOMG article the one on MEGA damage?

Also, Q&A for Druids says we'll get a new ability called Symbiosis, and according to whoever said it, it's going to "blow [our] minds". Way to avoid high expectations.
Damage=ZOMG was something a dev said about mage damage during TBC beta. Then they put a coefficient tax in place to reduce the damage to closer in line with others.

Turns out that if you test one class in nearly T5 equivalent crafted gear, their damage will be higher than other classes tested in T4 and you'll nerf them unnecessarily.
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#14 Nov 10 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fire is RNG based by design and working as desired for now.


I saw this and just had to laugh a little.

Sorry Pold. Smiley: smile
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#15 Nov 10 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Was the Damage=ZOMG article the one on MEGA damage?

Also, Q&A for Druids says we'll get a new ability called Symbiosis, and according to whoever said it, it's going to "blow [our] minds". Way to avoid high expectations.
Damage=ZOMG was something a dev said about mage damage during TBC beta. Then they put a coefficient tax in place to reduce the damage to closer in line with others.

Turns out that if you test one class in nearly T5 equivalent crafted gear, their damage will be higher than other classes tested in T4 and you'll nerf them unnecessarily.


Who woulda thunk it?

Oh, and no way every spec will be any more viable than they are right now. There will always be a best and worst spec for each tier of content/level of gear/tier set bonuses.
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#16 Nov 10 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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Anobix wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Was the Damage=ZOMG article the one on MEGA damage?

Also, Q&A for Druids says we'll get a new ability called Symbiosis, and according to whoever said it, it's going to "blow [our] minds". Way to avoid high expectations.
Damage=ZOMG was something a dev said about mage damage during TBC beta. Then they put a coefficient tax in place to reduce the damage to closer in line with others.

Turns out that if you test one class in nearly T5 equivalent crafted gear, their damage will be higher than other classes tested in T4 and you'll nerf them unnecessarily.


Who woulda thunk it?

Oh, and no way every spec will be any more viable than they are right now. There will always be a best and worst spec for each tier of content/level of gear/tier set bonuses.


Pretty much.

At best, they are saying that they will ensure that each spec gets its spot in the sun.

If they would just create separate PVP numbers, then I could see balance happening. At the very least, I could see the difference between specs being in the 1%, with RNG swings making those negligible. But as long as they are obliged to make PvE changes for non-PvE content, there won't be balance.
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#17 Nov 10 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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IDrownFish wrote:
The ranged Frost Nova mechanic is just too clunky for me.


What's clunky about it? Doesn't work on bosses, anyway.

Only time I use it in PvE is during AOE. Load up a Blizzard, throw down a pet Frost Nova and cackle maniacally as your Blizzard crits for a million damage at once. Win?

If you're talking about PvP, yeah, I feel ya. Can't play my Destruction Warlock in PvP either because of all the **** you have to manage and click on the screen. Mostly because I control movement with my mouse and if I have to place stuff like pet Frost Nova, Whiplash (Succubus) or Shadowfury, I lose movement for the duration.
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#18 Nov 10 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, I was talking about PvE.

Freeze creates two charges of Fingers of Frost. So if you want maximum dps, you're going to have to use it, even on bosses.
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#19 Nov 10 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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Oh yeah, that silly talent.
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#20 Nov 10 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
I should probably use Freeze more than I do. I tend to only use it if DF is up and I have no FoF charges. Or I'm doing AoE. Really I should be using it on CD. =x
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#21 Nov 10 2011 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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Cooldowns are overrated.
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#22 Nov 11 2011 at 1:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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That talent is why I hate running with frost mages when I'm tanking. They always seem to want to Freeze when I'm pulling the mobs, which always means stuff sits out of Thunderclap range.
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#23 Nov 11 2011 at 1:38 AM Rating: Good
Those are stupid mages then. =x I'd never be dumb enough to freeze mobs unless they're on top of the tank.
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#24 Nov 11 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Those are stupid mages then. =x I'd never be dumb enough to freeze mobs unless they're on top of the tank.
I run across them in the LFD tool. Them being stupid was a given. Smiley: tongue
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#25 Nov 11 2011 at 2:16 AM Rating: Good
So by that logic all mages who use the LFD are stupid? Smiley: rolleyes
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#26 Nov 11 2011 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
So by that logic all mages who use the LFD are stupid? Smiley: rolleyes
Nope, just all players who manage to get into groups with me via the LFD. I suspect that there are good folks in the LFD, but I never run into them.

I know, I'm sure that there are plenty who do, but you don't remember the decent folks, just the bad ones.
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#27 Nov 11 2011 at 5:46 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, the LFD thing is a curse in disguise.

Logged on my Druid, joined a Zul'Aman run where the DPS was struggling to pass me in DPS and Damage Done (I was tanking) and the healer had issues keeping me alive since the moment he went from Holy Light spam to Divine Light, he'd run out of mana. Turns out he was wearing a mix of BOE epics and ilvl 272 greens. We wiped on the second trash gauntlet (the one with the scouts that call in reinforcements) because the healer decided to pull one of the scouts with his weak **** Judgement and when the reinforcements came, they ran right past the group of trash mobs, including two scouts, I was about to pull.

I told him he was a **** for pulling scouts like that. He told me I was the one who pulled the group. Apparently he turned blind the second he hit that Judgement button, because the reinforcements ran right past the group, pulled them and then went for the healer. Left without bothering with the discussion. DPS was way too low for the healer's mana pool anyway (he ran out of mana every pull about halfway through the fight).

Logged on my Shaman instead and joined another Zul'Aman run, this time as the healer. The tank was a T12 geared Warrior with both the Brewfest stamina trinkets. The Warlock was so busy telling the Warrior what a scrub he was (didn't have issues healing him) that his own DPS never went above 10k. After we wiped when some DPS pulled a patrol and the tank ran to help without letting me know and the Warlock simultaneously pulled a group of mobs because we were taking too long, in his opinion, I just left.

I was ready to snap someone's neck at that point.
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#28 Nov 11 2011 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
I don't know why DPS feel the need to berate tanks. As long as he can keep aggro off me most of the time, I'm happy. The last tank I made fun of apparently didn't know how to use his taunt button, because me and the hunter were tanking most of the time. He stayed until the last boss in ZG though, because then it started to get really annoying how bad he was.
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#29 Nov 11 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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It should be required of players to complete 20 dungeons as a tank before they can use the LFD tool on any class.

Seriously, there are few experiences more worthwhile for learning how to function in an MMO.
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#30 Nov 11 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
I've been trying to do a few regular dungeons on my pally to get the last couple of iLvls to get into the troll heroics. Now I have realised that the troll heroics have taken all the half decent players out of the regular heroic queues. I've spent about 7 hours, completed 2 heroics, gone through about 15 groups and wiped on so many bosses & trash pulls. Tanks think they can tank it all in greens and blues with a healer also poorly geared. Nobody interrupts - especially mob heals and most tanks don't seem to know the boss mechanics and won't ask.

At least tonight I will be able to hit the troll heroics - you get some bads for sure, but not whole group after whole group of them.....

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#31 Nov 11 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
I don't need to do 20 dungeons as a tank to learn how to play WoW properly. It probably would help a lot of people, but I don't think it'd do much for me besides make me cry.
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#32 Nov 12 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I don't need to do 20 dungeons as a tank to learn how to play WoW properly. It probably would help a lot of people, but I don't think it'd do much for me besides make me cry.

There's also the issue that some people just won't learn, no matter how many times they die. I have no idea how many times I've watched a tank in Throne of Tides stand there and eat Dark Fissure (second boss, point-blank attack) EVERY TIME, even after I tell them to move.
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#33 Nov 12 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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It's true, but those who CAN learn will finally begin to understand certain key aspects of the tank classes that are important, but so easily hampered by other party members.

I guess hate is no longer an issue in WoW. But crowd positioning, pat management, etc. is still something that's especially difficult for them. They also need to understand the stress of watching your health fall and having to just believe your healer will keep you up while simultaneously managing CDs to make that happen (which includes figuring out when your damage spikes AND healing spikes will occur).

AND THEN they'll understand why people **** at a tank for something outside his/her control is so infuriating...

I first learned to tank in FFXI, btw. It's fun doing literally EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to hold hate to still lose it and get yelled at. Umm, no. I have 3 abilities that I can spam, plus weapon damage. If you start casting your spell the moment the mob comes into vision, you are going to die. And that is SO NOT MY FAULT. Smiley: mad
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#34 Nov 12 2011 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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P.S. I am aware that there are people who don't need to actually be a tank to respect the position they are in (at least enough to learn what not to do, even if they don't understand why it's important). I am also aware that nothing like this is likely to appear in any game, ever.
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#35 Nov 13 2011 at 12:22 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly, the amount of **** tanks get in the dungeon finder is part of the reason I quit. Sure, I'm not the best tank, but don't shout at me because on my screen last boss in ZG heroic isn't standing in the bubbles, but he's getting the damage reduction debuff. Whenever I healed or dps'd in the dungeon finder, I just sit down, shut up, and do my job as best I can. There's no need to call tanks out constantly when you've got dps blowing everything they have on trash and pulling aggro (this was shortly before the threat hotfix). And then there was the Arcane mages. ABlast is stupid. Like, really stupid. With enough haste and SP it used to hit so hard and so fast that tanks just didn't have a chance.
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#36 Nov 13 2011 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I don't know why DPS feel the need to berate tanks. As long as he can keep aggro off me most of the time, I'm happy.


On that note, I absolutely hate Rogues and Hunters who don't use their aggro transfers. I know they cost resources, but it's like people have forgotten how to play as a group and instead take every opportunity they can to stroke their epeens. If a Hunter uses Misdirection every pull, it means I can focus more on staying alive than having to spend globals on TPS enhancing abilities. It also means the Frost Death Knight in 391 gear can do his full 30k DPS without having to tank the stuff.

Some people...

Not that I should need to work to stay alive on my Druid. A typical ZA run has me at 150-300k damage taken on each boss. Sometimes I take less damage than the DPS. For comparison, my Shaman has healed a Death Knight who took 800k damage on the first boss alone. If I can heal that no problem, how the **** are healers letting me die at 300k damage taken?
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#37 Nov 13 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Not that I should need to work to stay alive on my Druid. A typical ZA run has me at 150-300k damage taken on each boss. Sometimes I take less damage than the DPS. For comparison, my Shaman has healed a Death Knight who took 800k damage on the first boss alone. If I can heal that no problem, how the **** are healers letting me die at 300k damage taken?
Without seeing logs or anything, I would assume they had issues trying to keep DPS poor at avoiding avoidable damage alive that caused them to make mistakes on keeping you alive.

Or they simply **** up.

Or your damage was all in a spike, but I can't say that without seeing logs(or knowing more about the fights and Druids in particular).
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#38 Nov 13 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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I'm way too good at hitting one of my two defensive cooldowns to die from spikes. Smiley: tongue

I'd put my money on failure. Lord knows I've seen my share (and then some) of failure in the Zandalari heroics. Especially Zul'Aman seems to be a **** magnet lately.
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#39 Nov 17 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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#40 Nov 17 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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