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Unholy Presence and arthritisFollow

#27 Jun 27 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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That's fair, but for the vast majority of users it just got a massive nerf, particularly in soloing and pvp ability.
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#28 Jun 27 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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So the "vast majority" of DK players don't raid and only quest and PvP?

Honestly, I feel it's more a case of over-reaction. The DS nerf isn't all that huge a deal in actuality. It sounds worse than it is in practice.
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#29 Jun 27 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Let me clarify:

DS is still very useful in raiding, but it's use is generally characterized by the ability for a DK to DS right after a large burst. Since DS is 7% of your health or 20% of the preceding 5 seconds of damage, a raiding DK is likely to see some pretty large returns on the ability. In many cases, Dark Succor would have been irrelevant. In most others, since the DKs were only trying to take stress of the healers, it wasn't a huge loss. In any case, it wasn't a "must have" glyph, just highly recommended.

Maybe most DKs do raid now--IDK. I still assume that raiders are a minority of players.

In PVP, however, it's a very different story. It's highly unlikely that you would have suffered a ton of damage in just 5 seconds (unless you were carrying a flag). So the increase in the minimum threshold was significant. Frost PVP strategies primarily involved around outlasting an opponent. Their ability to do so just took a massive hit--their effective health is essentially 33% lower now.

Unholy, naturally, feels the affects as well. However, they are more about damage than longevity, so it isn't as harsh.

In any place where the ability to DS outside of tanking roles actually mattered, it's a pretty big nerf.
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#30 Jun 28 2011 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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Death Strike, last time I checked, was still very powerful. 15% of maximum health returned minimum? With a Frost spec, you can spam Death Strike three times per rune cycle. 45% health in three global cooldowns?

What other DPS class has a self-heal that heals for almost half their health every rotation? Granted, the DPS drops to near nothing if you spam Death Strike, but the survivability is through the roof.

Edit: Of course, I'm biased. I'm a Feral Druid and our self-healing is worse than any other class' now. Not only do our direct heals have long-*** cast times, they also heal for pathetic amounts of health. Less than what glyphed Death Strike heals for.

Edited, Jun 28th 2011 2:18pm by Mazra
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#31 Jun 28 2011 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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That's what we are talking about--it was just nerfed to 7% health minimum.
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#32 Jun 28 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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I think this discussion is a case of different experiences. PvP for me, both pre- and post-nerf, has changed very little in either Blood (for flags and node defense) or Frost (for "das leet burn!"). And for raiding it's a zero-sum sort of thing.

Personally, I find Frost PvP to be more about control and burst than longevity. When bursting/CC'ing, self healing isn't as vital. And if I do want to use a out-survive strategy, I'll use my Blood spec. =)
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#33 Jun 28 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
That's what we are talking about--it was just nerfed to 7% health minimum.


They're removing Glyph of Dark Succor in 4.2?

That... that makes no sense. Why add something and then remove it again?
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#34 Jun 28 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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The new Dark Succor makes Death Strike work like Warrior's Victory Rush, you heal for more the first DS after killing something that's worth exp or honor.
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#35 Jun 28 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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Meh.

I guess I'm not giving up on my Druid just yet. Glyph of Ferocious Bite looks yummy in 4.2.
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#36 Jun 28 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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This patch has left me torn with respect to DKs.

On the one hand, 15% more strength for Unholy and the Assist pet stance all sound lovely, since I don't really like Frost now. And tanks will get slightly more parry, which is cool.

So in PvE, I'm happy. I wouldn't be if I played Frost, but whatevs.

In PvP, none of these changes are too awesome. Increase in Unholy Might is still nice of course, but I would have preferred Dark Succor. Still, though, I tend to PvE much more than PvP...

Either way, I can't decide if I like Cata's DK. I loved the class in Wrath, but certain changes just, well, suck. A lot. And they haven't added anything I particularly like (minus Dark Transformation, which I like in theory but don't like in application). So it really depends on how much the changes bother me. And until I decide, I don't really intend to invest myself into him.
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#37 Jun 29 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
Just hit 85 with my DK last night, and Maz I totally see where you're coming from with the arthritis comment lol. I'm constantly pressing buttons. I switched from 2H to DW when I hi 85, just to give it a try and see how I liked it, and I gotta say I love it.

Call me a dork all you want, but I love the flips! So cool looking. And the DPS is just insane... I went out and bought 2 BoE maces from the troll dungeons off the AH, and in my first heroic I was doing 11k. Craziness.
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#38 Jun 30 2011 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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I went DW frost. From around a minute on a dummy it plays slower than 2H.
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#39 Jun 30 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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DW definitely plays slower, but it's still too fast with Unholy Presence.

Wish they'd switch it around so that DW was the fast playstyle and 2h was the slow(er). Dual-wielding Death Knights... psh. And maces even! They're called Runeblades for a reason, dammit!
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#40 Jun 30 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Right? It's even more absurd than Paladins using anything but maces.
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#41 Jun 30 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
I'll admit DK's using maces is kind of silly... but I'm not complaining. My maces helped me do 11k on bosses in my first heroic. I haven't noticed there being being a speed difference between the two different frost specs really. Even though my haste is going up though, it seems like I'm getting rune locked more often instead of less often, which is kind of annoying. With Blood Tap having a minute CD and Empowered Rune Weapon having a 5 minute CD, there's not much I can do when I get rune locked, and it kinda sucks.

Paladins though, I think swords make sense for a paladin. Axes not so much...

Edited, Jun 30th 2011 2:34pm by PigtailsOfDoom
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#42 Jun 30 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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They don't make sense in context of the lore--Paladins traditionally use maces. It's not so much them not making sense because they have mace-related skills, it's more general.

That's why Blood Elf DKs used swords and spears instead--it was them refusing to actually accept the peaceful doctrines of the Silver Hand.
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#43 Jun 30 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
Okay, maybe in an exclusively WoW lore ideal it doesn't make sense. Generally speaking though, a typical paladin with a sword makes sense to me. Smiley: tongue
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#44 Jun 30 2011 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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My pally uses a skull on a stick as a mace.

It doesn't seem quite right... Smiley: frown
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#45 Jun 30 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
But she has big boobs so it's okay.
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#46 Jun 30 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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People with big boobs get away with so much nonsense. Smiley: oyvey
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#47 Jun 30 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
Yup, it's good to be a C. Or better. =x

That was supposed to be a play on "It's good to be the king" but I think I failed.
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#48 Jul 03 2011 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Real lol at the small text. And yeah, no it didn't.

And I'm still confused by the burning skulls on Pallies' last Wrath tier set.
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#49 Jul 11 2011 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Had kinda kept an eye on this thread wanting to see where it was going.

My DK is 2H frost (unholy presence per the usual recommendations) and, much to my surprise, Rawr's recommendations have focused me away from haste stacking and instead capping hit (easily done) and *gasp* expertise.

With 346+ gear I've capped expertise out too. While I will randomly get the "no runes/no runic power" for a second, I don't feel my dps has suffered and it has slowed down the button mashing I used to compare with my rogue.

I don't know if this method of stat stacking is optimal, but a lesser frenzied button mashing feel and not having to worry about being behind the target (except for nasty cleaves :P) has opened a new perspective for my DK's playstyle.
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#50 Jul 11 2011 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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That's in line with proper gearing. So much of your damage comes from auto-attacks and obliterate that mastery has dropped significantly in attractiveness. It's still usually better than crit though, especially if you can get FF on multiple mobs.
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#51 Jul 11 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, capping hit and expertise are kind of implied for most melee specs.
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