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#52 Jul 12 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, capping hit and expertise are kind of implied for most melee specs.


Well, not for Unholy DKs. Seems important to point that out, since this is the DK forum. :P

Or Mut Rogues.
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#53 Jul 12 2011 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
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Yeah, capping hit and expertise are kind of implied for most melee specs.


Well, not for Unholy DKs. Seems important to point that out, since this is the DK forum. :P

Or Mut Rogues.


They just eschew expertise but do still need hit.
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#54 Jul 12 2011 at 2:43 AM Rating: Good
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That is true. I wasn't really thinking about hit, since I was just considering the Frost comment in terms of how the class had changed (hit had always been important, but expertise was a new priority).

Before the recent patches, it had been true that tanks wanted hit capped as well. But that's changed with them making taunt a guaranteed hit...

What I find interesting is how classes differ on their hit priorities. Every dps has hit as their second stat priority, after their core stat. But some will actually gem for it, and for others that's a strict dps loss.

...I think I'm just desperate for stats to be interesting again. >.<
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#55 Jul 12 2011 at 4:36 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
That is true. I wasn't really thinking about hit, since I was just considering the Frost comment in terms of how the class had changed (hit had always been important, but expertise was a new priority).

Before the recent patches, it had been true that tanks wanted hit capped as well. But that's changed with them making taunt a guaranteed hit...

What I find interesting is how classes differ on their hit priorities. Every dps has hit as their second stat priority, after their core stat. But some will actually gem for it, and for others that's a strict dps loss.

...I think I'm just desperate for stats to be interesting again. >.<


Only non-tank spec that has a low priority on hit is shadow. All of the rest want hit cap for the most part, with the dominance of main stats over secondary many wont gem hit to cap it but it is still a high reforge priority for them. Shadow has a lower hit requirement than most specs though so they can get away with being lower than most as almost all of their spells use DoT mechanics. Which give more leeway in reapplying.

Tanks never geared for hit unless the taunt not missing was crucial to the encounter as surviving has always been more important. Hit/exp was a luxury you could get into after you where geared.

Granted that has changed in Cata as Blood does desire some exp/hit and bears like expertise as they are somewhat mitigation stats due to how those specs masteries work. Exp is especially awesome is it does double duty on the combat table up to the dodge cap.

Also frost has always been a get hit/exp capped spec AFAIK.

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#56 Jul 12 2011 at 5:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:
What I find interesting is how classes differ on their hit priorities. Every dps has hit as their second stat priority, after their core stat. But some will actually gem for it, and for others that's a strict dps loss.

...I think I'm just desperate for stats to be interesting again. >.<


The only reason anyone should gem for hit is to pick up a blue socket bonus that's at least +20 Str/Dex/Int or (with some specs) +30 secondary stats. Hit can always be reforged onto gear, and to some extent I think reforging helped kill some interesting gemming options. That, and making DPS meta gems activate off of primary stat gems.
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#57 Jul 12 2011 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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I can't help but feel that reforging has all but destroyed what little interest in gearing remained after the stat simplification.
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#58 Jul 12 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
I can't help but feel that reforging has all but destroyed what little interest in gearing remained after the stat simplification.


Between that and only have 1-2 options per slot per tier.
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#59 Jul 13 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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I really don't get it. If their goal was to simplify things for regular players, why simplify things that only hardcore players will see? It just makes no sense.
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#60 Jul 13 2011 at 5:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Horsemouth wrote:
idiggory wrote:
I can't help but feel that reforging has all but destroyed what little interest in gearing remained after the stat simplification.


Between that and only have 1-2 options per slot per tier.


That I can recall, going all the way back to TBC raiding, there's only ever been 1-2 options per slot per tier. Unless you want to count how LK 10-mans had a totally separate loot table from 25 mans. The only exception to this would be for hit and defense rating, because tanks needed totally different stats than DPS, and healers needed different stats than caster DPS.
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#61 Jul 13 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
Horsemouth wrote:
idiggory wrote:
I can't help but feel that reforging has all but destroyed what little interest in gearing remained after the stat simplification.


Between that and only have 1-2 options per slot per tier.


That I can recall, going all the way back to TBC raiding, there's only ever been 1-2 options per slot per tier. Unless you want to count how LK 10-mans had a totally separate loot table from 25 mans. The only exception to this would be for hit and defense rating, because tanks needed totally different stats than DPS, and healers needed different stats than caster DPS.


Well, you need to consider that since BiS lists generally included both, since major stats weren't so powerful as to mandate an ilvl jump on any piece of gear. And since you couldn't reforge, that mattered.

Back then, you might have used select pieces of gear from different tiers and different raid sizes. I mean, Hunters were using a green ilvl 200 item for like 2-3 tiers...

Consider TotC. In 10 man, you can get a belt with crit and haste. But it's crit and expertise in the 25 man. 13 strength might not have been enough to counter the loss of a stat combo that wasn't optimal. This is probably a bad example, but whatever.
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#62 Jul 13 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think it was intended for people to use a mix of 10-man and 25-man gear for a BiS list, it just worked out that way. Sticking with the different iLevels of gear, the alternative would be to have the same items re-used, but labeled 10-man/10-man heroic/25-man/25-man heroic. That gets clunky really fast.

There's also the annoyance that comes with explaining that, yes, it's a tier or two back in content, but it's still BIS for my class/spec. Right up there with explaining why I was using a couple resilience pieces in BC as a feral druid.
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#63 Jul 13 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
I don't think it was intended for people to use a mix of 10-man and 25-man gear for a BiS list, it just worked out that way. Sticking with the different iLevels of gear, the alternative would be to have the same items re-used, but labeled 10-man/10-man heroic/25-man/25-man heroic. That gets clunky really fast.

There's also the annoyance that comes with explaining that, yes, it's a tier or two back in content, but it's still BIS for my class/spec. Right up there with explaining why I was using a couple resilience pieces in BC as a feral druid.


It was still vastly more interesting though. Now, you literally always just grab whatever drops and is for your role, unless you already have the better version. And that sucks.

The best system, imo, gives a much wider selection of items (with no reforging) and gives the potential for interesting stat interplay that makes the value of each truly relative to your other stats even in the context of a single gear tier.

A few classes still get some interesting gear choices (mainly kitties), but that's because their only task is to keep their stats about equal.

[EDIT]

I would be hesistant to say it wasn't intended. Perhaps that's true, but it certainly wasn't unwanted on Blizz's part, considering how long it took them to introduce gear pieces with proper stats to stop it. If they had just failed to do so for one tier, it would be one thing, but this went on for 3 expansions (well, 2, but I didn't know what to call Vanilla :P).

Realistically, Cata was just a significant change in gear philosophy.

Edited, Jul 13th 2011 6:31pm by idiggory
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#64 Jul 13 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Too many side-grades, though, and you get a loot table that's cluttered with 5 variations of "Plate DPS" bracers, and you might not even have a plate class in your 10-man raid. Also, if pieces from the new tier aren't at least marginal upgrades, you don't care what shinies dropped from the boss. That's at least a small part of the fun.
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#65 Jul 13 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, but taking all the fun out of gearing so that every class can have a BiS (or close) item on each boss hardly seems any better to me. I'd say it's way worse.
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#66 Jul 14 2011 at 6:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know, going back to HKM and Gruul every week when you're working on T5 because DST is BIS for a bunch of your DPS wasn't fun. I didn't mind, but it got to the point where we had to stop because people were intentionally showing up late or not coming for gear farm raids.
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#67 Jul 14 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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That's why you use those occasions for alt raids, if you can. It gives the people who aren't seeking the items your raid needs a personal reason to be there. And if you only need that trinket for 1 or 2 people, that's 8-9 alts gearing up.

And since BC actually required raid runs to gear an alt, it was win-win.
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#68 Jul 14 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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That works, for people that have alts. Not everyone does. There's also the issue of main-toon off spec vs alt main-spec.
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#69 Jul 14 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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Those don't really seem important in the context we are talking of--how guilds should handle having BiS pieces in the last-tier of content.

First of all, anyone who needs the drop is going to bring their main.

Secondly, it doesn't matter if not everyone has an alt. In all likelihood, you are going to have enough alts in a proper-sized raiding guild to put together alt runs. If your guild only has 10 people, you probably aren't hardcore anyway.

Thirdly, most hardcore guilds organize alt runs specifically to raise up alts that they want. Like additional healers/tanks. If they need to gear them anyway, it's not really an issue to get the BiS for a main.

Finally, a guild run very easily avoids loot rule issues, since the run is organized within the context of doing what is best for the guild. Plus, it's exceedingly east to set loot rules ahead of time (which a guild should do) so there is no issue and every player knows what they are agreeing to.
-Main-spec mains get priority.
-Alt or off-specs gearing specifically because the gear wants them to get next priority.
After that, I'd expect guilds to differ, but I would:
--Give priority to whichever person who will use the item most actively in the guild. If that off-spec is going to be useful for a boss in your progression, they get priority. If that alt can fill a hole in case a healer drops out, they get priority. Etc.
--If those priorities are equal, then the item is either rolled on or you use your guild's point system.
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#70 Jul 14 2011 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Having been there, and done that in BC, I can say that there are some people in a 25-man raiding guild that get bored of old tier pretty quickly. That's when you go to your bench, for the people that fill in occasionally when members of the core group don't/can't show up. People that doesn't need something on their main want to bring an alt if they have one, some of the people that don't need loot and don't have an alt will want to sit out. You can end up with a group where only 15 out of 25 people have done the fight before, and some people are in grossly under-geared alts. This can turn what should be a farm fight into a wipe-fest.

With a core group of 25-30 raiders, 10-15 people might not show up for a last-tier farm night, or you end up with only 3 of your 6 healers, or only 1 main tank. Enter under-geared and inexperienced bench warmers.

Alt runs were never organized, happened on off nights, and more often than not resulted in wipe-fests because half the people there expected to be carried to purplez.

Loot rules obviously would be set before-hand, but but no matter what they are, someone is going to feel like they're getting the short end of the stick. Tick off the bench, they won't come. Tick off the alts, they won't come. It always seems to cause more drama than it's worth.
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#71 Jul 14 2011 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
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Alt runs were never organized, happened on off nights, and more often than not resulted in wipe-fests because half the people there expected to be carried to purplez.


All your problems seem completely summed up right here. It's not at all surprising that impromptu or unofficial alt runs would end up like that. But if your guild leaders are coordinating them and have a set schedule for the alt runs, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. Especially if they encouraged people to bring alts into the guild.
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#72 Jul 14 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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The alt runs were separate from the old-content farm runs. They were something to do on off-nights and weekends when we didn't have a scheduled raid.

Having a lot of people with alts that they bring to the raid just spreads the upgrades even further. If it's not absolutely essential for a certain class (Warlocks on Mag pre-nerf) to be there, there's no reason to have an alt. I was the token feral druid; OT when we needed an OT, DPS when we didn't. We had a couple healers with full off-spec gear, so we could run with 5, 6, or 7 healers depending on the fight. Plus a couple alternate healers and DPS to cover people not showing up.

The problem was never a lack of organization, it was a lack of desire to go back and spend even more time in a raid we'd been in for 5 months already just because RNG flipped us the middle finger.
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#73 Jul 14 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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But this in the context of farming BiS pieces. If you are hardcore enough to demand you have the absolute best item in each slot, you wouldn't let that stop you. And if you are that hardcore, you are likely in a guild that will run that content again to gear alts while getting you the piece. And they are likely skilled enough that the lower gear wouldn't be totally problematic.
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#74 Jul 15 2011 at 5:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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It comes down to a difference in raid philosophy from guild leaders. Do you want to focus on getting lots of attempts on a boss, wiping sub-5% multiple times if need be, until you can do the fight (mostly) flawlessly? Do you want to work on getting everyone their BIS gear, so your extra DPS/HPS/mitigation can cover for a few small mistakes?

If your BIS list includes gear from last tier, you have to choose one or the other (not counting things like Firefighter, which getting through that is definitely a test in raid awareness and coordination). If your BIS is current tier, then you can work on hard-modes on the first couple nights of raiding, then clear the rest of the fights on normal on the last day.
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#75 Jul 15 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really see any issue if they need to choose. It isn't like we are talking about massive amounts of gear being BiS from previous tiers--it's 2 slots at the most. And the margin between them and the next best is usually pretty low.

So, realistically, it comes down to what you and your guild want to do. If they're dying to get their core raiders in BiS, then they'd do it. And it wouldn't be an issue, since it's the guild's philosophy towards raiding.

If all they want to do is clear content, then those pieces are no big deal.

I'm not seeing a real issue here.
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#76 Jul 15 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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It's confusing watching a red and blue worgen argue over stuff.

Yay for generic avatars, I guess.
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#77 Jul 15 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
It's confusing watching a red and blue worgen argue over stuff.

Yay for generic avatars, I guess.


red vs blue...

generic avatars...

flashbacks...

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#78 Jul 15 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Ironically, I just joined RvB in EVE (and I'm in Blue).
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#79 Jul 15 2011 at 9:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd ask for some kind of generic, druid-themed avatar, but Dig and I would probably pick the same avatar, again.
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#80 Jul 15 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Good
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There. :P

This one seems more realistic.
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#81 Jul 16 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
So... digg looks like a taru taru irl? Smiley: dubious
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#82 Jul 16 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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I feel like I act more like a Tarutaru than a Worgen. :P

Maybe I'll get premium for my 10k, so I can post pictures and whatnot. I don't want to actually ding until Monday, since the forums are relatively dead on the weekends.

Which means I only get 1 more post after this one. D:
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#83 Jul 16 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
I feel like I act more like a Tarutaru than a Worgen. :P

Maybe I'll get premium for my 10k, so I can post pictures and whatnot. I don't want to actually ding until Monday, since the forums are relatively dead on the weekends.

Which means I only get 1 more post after this one. D:


Can Dis go all day Sunday with out posting?

Can we come up with something to make him break and post?
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