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Unholy Presence and arthritisFollow

#1 May 25 2011 at 12:58 AM Rating: Good
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Is it just me, or does the Unholy Presence style as DW/2h Frost not suit your left/right hand either? I know it's only a 33% decrease in the global cooldown, but I've done one dungeon today and my left forearm feels sore and my left fingers are sort of throbbing.

I also feel like I have to spam the buttons non-stop, to not miss out on the reduced cooldown because of latency. With Frost Presence, I'd time my keypresses so that I didn't mash them more than needed, but I can't really do that in Unholy Presence (I find that the animation for the global cooldown sometimes bugs out and doesn't display the reduction).

Now, EJ mentions that Unholy Presence is a 500 dps increase over a Mastery heavy Frost Presence build in tier 11 gear. That's quite a bit, obviously, but I'm wondering if a Frost Presence build wouldn't amount to higher DPS if you're prone to "forgetting" or missing attacks since you'd not be utilizing the GCD reduction.

Personally, I've found that I do about the same amount of damage in Unholy Presence as in Frost Presence, but my Death Knight is only level 83 right now. Not having arthritis at the age of 25 might be worth losing 500 DPS over, though. Smiley: um

Frost Knights, any thoughts on the switch to Unholy Presence? What do you roll with?
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#2 May 25 2011 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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2H Frost in unholy presence. I don't have arthritis though.

Once you get used to the style it slows down a bit.
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#5 May 27 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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Maz, you should know better than to use BiS-based EJ threads and apply them to a leveling toon. Until you're raiding, it just doesn't much matter. =P

Right now I'm dual-wielding in Unholy Presence unless I need to AoE a group for more than 2 Howling Blasts (or more than roughly 5 sec.) where I flip to Frost Presence. Same tactic I use for 2-handers at the moment. This could possibly change in the next patch from what I'm seeing on the PTR. But that's pure speculation right now.

Personally, I like the faster-fire of Unholy Presence. Frost Presence just feels more lumbering to me. But as part of a raid team I'll do whichever is a better contribution to rDPS =)
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#6 May 28 2011 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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Well, true.

Unholy Presence has been my main turn-off with 2h Frost. I love Frost, but I hate Unholy Presence. I prefer slow and hard-hitting rather than fast and pewpew-ish. Plus, looking like a Fury Warrior on crack doesn't really fit my mental image of a Death Knight.
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#7 Jun 02 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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It was annoying when I first switched to Unholy presence. I felt like I wasn't hitting the buttons fast enough to keep up with the cooldowns, and when I did button mash, I wasn't able to respond to procs fast enough, and it felt like I was wasting DPS.

Now I'm used to it a little more. When I switch back to Frost presence now it feels really slow. I think you get used to it eventually.

I never had pain in my hands, wrists, or forearms though.

#8 Jun 17 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Wait, don't you main a kitty Maz? You should be used to a 1-second GCD.

Though I'll agree that switching to a 1-second GCD from a class that uses 1.5 can be irritating.
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#9 Jun 17 2011 at 8:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kitties don't hit something every GCD like DW Frost does, though. We can spam a couple abilities after using Tiger's Fury or Berserk, or getting an Omen of Clarity proc, but we're generally waiting on Energy. With my Frost DK, I almost always have either runes or RP to use, or I can hit HoW to get some RP.
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#10 Jun 19 2011 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
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That's true. Not so for hunters and rogues though.
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#11 Jun 20 2011 at 4:45 AM Rating: Good
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Rogues and hunters also 'energy' pool far more than Unholy presence DKs.
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#12 Jun 20 2011 at 6:10 AM Rating: Good
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That's true.
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#13 Jun 20 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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Hunters fill their rotations with Steady or Cobra Shot, both of which have a cast time. I find that I'm pushing far less buttons per minute on my Kitty and Hunter compared to my Death Knight.
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#14 Jun 20 2011 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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You can try Unholy--it's generally slower than 2-handed Frost (same GCD, but you won't necessarily always push a button, since your rune rotations aren't optimized, there's no random rune refreshes, and you hold off on DCs until your ghoul turns back).

Or, y'know, there's DW Frost. But that doesn't sound appealing. :P
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#15 Jun 21 2011 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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DW Frost is what I'm rolling with now, but EJ says Unholy Presence is better than Frost Presence there as well.

I guess it's a matter of min/max, but I hate being inferior on purpose.
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#16 Jun 21 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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Wait, really? Does that mean DW Frost is now GCD capped without Unholy?
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#17 Jun 22 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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It means, MOAR HASTE IS MOAR BETTER.

Obviously.
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#18 Jun 22 2011 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just surprised Haste levels are high enough for GCD capping to already be an issue for DW...

Then again, with how poorly Blizz approached class design this time around, it's not actually that surprising. And that's depressing...
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#19 Jun 22 2011 at 3:14 AM Rating: Good
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Both DK DPS specs love haste, DW Frost had an affair with mastery for a while but better gear ended it.
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#20 Jun 22 2011 at 6:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think DW Frost is GCD capped in either presence, but I haven't bothered to read through the entire thread at EJ. For what I'm doing (DPSing heroics), a general idea on stat and ability priority is all I wanted.
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#21 Jun 22 2011 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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Then I'm confused.

Unholy Presence, as Frost, gives:

10% Attack Speed
10% Rune Regeneration
GCD -.5
Movement Speed
4% RP Generation

2Hnd Frost loved it because they were GCD capped in Frost Presence, and a 15% damage boost couldn't compare to more attacks. Especially since the RP generation buff was useless in that scenario.

I mean, it essentially meant that they were getting 33% Haste. But that's only the case if you can actually USE all those extra GCDs.

But DW now loves Unholy, despite not being GCD capped?

10% Attack Speed means that they are getting more auto-attacks in, okay. It also means more random runes. And Rune Regeneration, in theory, means 10% more Obliterates. Now we have 4% more Frost Strikes.

It just seems weird to me that this is a powerful enough buff to compete with the 15% damage from Frost Presence, if they aren't GCD capped as it stands.
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#23 Jun 23 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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For the record: Raiding Frost DKs don't stress GCD capping as much as being rune-locked (being out of runes and runic power at any point). Unholy presence (for Frost) helps reduce rune refresh rates so you have fewer rune-locked moments and more Oblits. More Oblits give you more Frost Strikes. More Frost Stikes give you more Runic Empowerment procs. Huzzah!

Just be sure that both runes in a pair are cooling down when you Frost Strike kids! =P
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#24 Jun 25 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
You just need to practice your "wrist exercises" more...

I like the unholy rune speed, gives me more chances to death strike when I stand in stupid places.
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#25 Jun 25 2011 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
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Too bad DS is now practically useless in anything but Blood Presence, as a tank.
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#26 Jun 27 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Death Strike is still a valuable tool for DPS DKs in a raid environment. Far from useless on fights that are heavy on healing (Nef, etc).
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#27 Jun 27 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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That's fair, but for the vast majority of users it just got a massive nerf, particularly in soloing and pvp ability.
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#28 Jun 27 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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So the "vast majority" of DK players don't raid and only quest and PvP?

Honestly, I feel it's more a case of over-reaction. The DS nerf isn't all that huge a deal in actuality. It sounds worse than it is in practice.
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#29 Jun 27 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Let me clarify:

DS is still very useful in raiding, but it's use is generally characterized by the ability for a DK to DS right after a large burst. Since DS is 7% of your health or 20% of the preceding 5 seconds of damage, a raiding DK is likely to see some pretty large returns on the ability. In many cases, Dark Succor would have been irrelevant. In most others, since the DKs were only trying to take stress of the healers, it wasn't a huge loss. In any case, it wasn't a "must have" glyph, just highly recommended.

Maybe most DKs do raid now--IDK. I still assume that raiders are a minority of players.

In PVP, however, it's a very different story. It's highly unlikely that you would have suffered a ton of damage in just 5 seconds (unless you were carrying a flag). So the increase in the minimum threshold was significant. Frost PVP strategies primarily involved around outlasting an opponent. Their ability to do so just took a massive hit--their effective health is essentially 33% lower now.

Unholy, naturally, feels the affects as well. However, they are more about damage than longevity, so it isn't as harsh.

In any place where the ability to DS outside of tanking roles actually mattered, it's a pretty big nerf.
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#30 Jun 28 2011 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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Death Strike, last time I checked, was still very powerful. 15% of maximum health returned minimum? With a Frost spec, you can spam Death Strike three times per rune cycle. 45% health in three global cooldowns?

What other DPS class has a self-heal that heals for almost half their health every rotation? Granted, the DPS drops to near nothing if you spam Death Strike, but the survivability is through the roof.

Edit: Of course, I'm biased. I'm a Feral Druid and our self-healing is worse than any other class' now. Not only do our direct heals have long-ass cast times, they also heal for pathetic amounts of health. Less than what glyphed Death Strike heals for.

Edited, Jun 28th 2011 2:18pm by Mazra
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#31 Jun 28 2011 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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That's what we are talking about--it was just nerfed to 7% health minimum.
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#32 Jun 28 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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I think this discussion is a case of different experiences. PvP for me, both pre- and post-nerf, has changed very little in either Blood (for flags and node defense) or Frost (for "das leet burn!"). And for raiding it's a zero-sum sort of thing.

Personally, I find Frost PvP to be more about control and burst than longevity. When bursting/CC'ing, self healing isn't as vital. And if I do want to use a out-survive strategy, I'll use my Blood spec. =)
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#33 Jun 28 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
That's what we are talking about--it was just nerfed to 7% health minimum.


They're removing Glyph of Dark Succor in 4.2?

That... that makes no sense. Why add something and then remove it again?
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#34 Jun 28 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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The new Dark Succor makes Death Strike work like Warrior's Victory Rush, you heal for more the first DS after killing something that's worth exp or honor.
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#35 Jun 28 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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Meh.

I guess I'm not giving up on my Druid just yet. Glyph of Ferocious Bite looks yummy in 4.2.
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#36 Jun 28 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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This patch has left me torn with respect to DKs.

On the one hand, 15% more strength for Unholy and the Assist pet stance all sound lovely, since I don't really like Frost now. And tanks will get slightly more parry, which is cool.

So in PvE, I'm happy. I wouldn't be if I played Frost, but whatevs.

In PvP, none of these changes are too awesome. Increase in Unholy Might is still nice of course, but I would have preferred Dark Succor. Still, though, I tend to PvE much more than PvP...

Either way, I can't decide if I like Cata's DK. I loved the class in Wrath, but certain changes just, well, suck. A lot. And they haven't added anything I particularly like (minus Dark Transformation, which I like in theory but don't like in application). So it really depends on how much the changes bother me. And until I decide, I don't really intend to invest myself into him.
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#37 Jun 29 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
Just hit 85 with my DK last night, and Maz I totally see where you're coming from with the arthritis comment lol. I'm constantly pressing buttons. I switched from 2H to DW when I hi 85, just to give it a try and see how I liked it, and I gotta say I love it.

Call me a dork all you want, but I love the flips! So cool looking. And the DPS is just insane... I went out and bought 2 BoE maces from the troll dungeons off the AH, and in my first heroic I was doing 11k. Craziness.
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#38 Jun 30 2011 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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I went DW frost. From around a minute on a dummy it plays slower than 2H.
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#39 Jun 30 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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DW definitely plays slower, but it's still too fast with Unholy Presence.

Wish they'd switch it around so that DW was the fast playstyle and 2h was the slow(er). Dual-wielding Death Knights... psh. And maces even! They're called Runeblades for a reason, dammit!
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#40 Jun 30 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Right? It's even more absurd than Paladins using anything but maces.
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#41 Jun 30 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
I'll admit DK's using maces is kind of silly... but I'm not complaining. My maces helped me do 11k on bosses in my first heroic. I haven't noticed there being being a speed difference between the two different frost specs really. Even though my haste is going up though, it seems like I'm getting rune locked more often instead of less often, which is kind of annoying. With Blood Tap having a minute CD and Empowered Rune Weapon having a 5 minute CD, there's not much I can do when I get rune locked, and it kinda sucks.

Paladins though, I think swords make sense for a paladin. Axes not so much...

Edited, Jun 30th 2011 2:34pm by PigtailsOfDoom
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#42 Jun 30 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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They don't make sense in context of the lore--Paladins traditionally use maces. It's not so much them not making sense because they have mace-related skills, it's more general.

That's why Blood Elf DKs used swords and spears instead--it was them refusing to actually accept the peaceful doctrines of the Silver Hand.
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#43 Jun 30 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
Okay, maybe in an exclusively WoW lore ideal it doesn't make sense. Generally speaking though, a typical paladin with a sword makes sense to me. Smiley: tongue
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#44 Jun 30 2011 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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My pally uses a skull on a stick as a mace.

It doesn't seem quite right... Smiley: frown
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#45 Jun 30 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
But she has big boobs so it's okay.
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#46 Jun 30 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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People with big boobs get away with so much nonsense. Smiley: oyvey
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#47 Jun 30 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
Yup, it's good to be a C. Or better. =x

That was supposed to be a play on "It's good to be the king" but I think I failed.
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#48 Jul 03 2011 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Real lol at the small text. And yeah, no it didn't.

And I'm still confused by the burning skulls on Pallies' last Wrath tier set.
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#49 Jul 11 2011 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Had kinda kept an eye on this thread wanting to see where it was going.

My DK is 2H frost (unholy presence per the usual recommendations) and, much to my surprise, Rawr's recommendations have focused me away from haste stacking and instead capping hit (easily done) and *gasp* expertise.

With 346+ gear I've capped expertise out too. While I will randomly get the "no runes/no runic power" for a second, I don't feel my dps has suffered and it has slowed down the button mashing I used to compare with my rogue.

I don't know if this method of stat stacking is optimal, but a lesser frenzied button mashing feel and not having to worry about being behind the target (except for nasty cleaves :P) has opened a new perspective for my DK's playstyle.
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#50 Jul 11 2011 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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That's in line with proper gearing. So much of your damage comes from auto-attacks and obliterate that mastery has dropped significantly in attractiveness. It's still usually better than crit though, especially if you can get FF on multiple mobs.
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#51 Jul 11 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, capping hit and expertise are kind of implied for most melee specs.
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