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Moonkin changes and etcFollow

#1 May 24 2011 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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I was reading the Shifting Perspecctives column on WoW Insider and I think it's really awesome. Blizzard should definatelly read it.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/05/20/shifting-perspectives-dot-changes-page-2/
#2 May 24 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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To be fair, his solutions largely suck. All he's done is make everything spellstorm damage, really. That makes the eclipse mechanic completely and totally uninteresting. Solar and Lunar SHOULD be different. He's right that they need to have equal damage potential. That's clear.

But just making it so you act the same regardless of the proc is stupid, imo.

The hurricane buffing mushrooms change could be interesting, though. But what it would be better, imo, if Druids were given another spell and the way hurricane worked was changed.

He suggested having hurricane buff mushroom damage. I agree that this is interesting. I would also add something like a spore cloud spell, that slowly increased in radius and damage over its duration (maybe starting at 3 yards and going up to 8)? Maybe call it moon spore and have it deal arcane damage. Hurricane would be nature. Make mushrooms spellstorm.

So now you have three spells:
1. A DoT AoE that deals nature damage and buffs the damage of mushrooms.
2. A burst AoE that deals spellstorm damage.
3. A DoT AoE that grows in power over time. Make the presence of undetonated mushrooms buff its damage. Maybe even create a window of opportunity at the end of the spell, so if you detonate the mushrooms when it is at least 7 yards in radius, you'll gain a stronger burst.

You are now acting differently in lunar and solar, but damage can still be balanced easily between the two due to the addition of the new spell. Furthermore, the new spell acts in an interesting way, and both spells interact with your standard AoE, but in different ways.
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#3 May 24 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
To be fair, his solutions largely suck. All he's done is make everything spellstorm damage, really. That makes the eclipse mechanic completely and totally uninteresting. Solar and Lunar SHOULD be different. He's right that they need to have equal damage potential. That's clear.

But just making it so you act the same regardless of the proc is stupid, imo.

The hurricane buffing mushrooms change could be interesting, though. But what it would be better, imo, if Druids were given another spell and the way hurricane worked was changed.

He suggested having hurricane buff mushroom damage. I agree that this is interesting. I would also add something like a spore cloud spell, that slowly increased in radius and damage over its duration (maybe starting at 3 yards and going up to 8)? Maybe call it moon spore and have it deal arcane damage. Hurricane would be nature. Make mushrooms spellstorm.

So now you have three spells:
1. A DoT AoE that deals nature damage and buffs the damage of mushrooms.
2. A burst AoE that deals spellstorm damage.
3. A DoT AoE that grows in power over time. Make the presence of undetonated mushrooms buff its damage. Maybe even create a window of opportunity at the end of the spell, so if you detonate the mushrooms when it is at least 7 yards in radius, you'll gain a stronger burst.

You are now acting differently in lunar and solar, but damage can still be balanced easily between the two due to the addition of the new spell. Furthermore, the new spell acts in an interesting way, and both spells interact with your standard AoE, but in different ways.


You know what would be awesome? Get rid of eclipse. No, seriously. It's just a stupid, cumbersome mechanic.

Now, make Wrath buff Starfire and vice-versa so we will cast one after the other.
Make Insect Swarm and Moonfire increase the damage in both spells so we keep both dots always up.
Make Mushrooms targetable so we can aoe stuff that keeps on moving.
Get rid of Hurricane, its useless.
Give the splash damage back to Starfall. Make the splash in Starfall spread the dots to other mobs like that ability DKs have that spread the disease.
Get rid of treants. Instead, add something that cast spells and scale with our intelect/haste/crit/etc and that shadow our casts accordingly.
Get rid of Starsurge. Add a talented 1.5sec cast spell that allows us to cast while moving. Make this spell hit harder, the less health the target has.

There, moonkin fixed, not cumbersome and interesting. And not overcomplicated.
#4 May 24 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
I totally agree Brisin. I've read over and over that the difference between a good moonkin and a great moonkin is the ability to time eclipse properly for move and add phases. I just haven't quite gotten the hang of it yet, and it's frustrating as all hell. If they got rid of the Eclipse mechanic all together, that would help so much. Having a buff that only affects you 66% of the time just sucks. I really prefer the RNG factor of my priest's shadow orbs to be honest. I don't know exactly what my uptime is on Empowered Shadows due to orbs, but I'm pretty sure it's a lot higher than 66%.
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#5 May 24 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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I pretty much loathe the picture of boomkin you just painted. It's boring, uninteresting, and just drew on other class mechanics. And you pretty much just stripped anything unique from it...

Eclipse isn't perfect as it is, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it. They just need to work at it. There are plenty of mechanics in WoW that just won't work, that Blizz is ignoring. I really don' think this is one of them.
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#6 May 24 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
I pretty much loathe the picture of boomkin you just painted. It's boring, uninteresting, and just drew on other class mechanics. And you pretty much just stripped anything unique from it...

Eclipse isn't perfect as it is, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it. They just need to work at it. There are plenty of mechanics in WoW that just won't work, that Blizz is ignoring. I really don' think this is one of them.

Eh, I know most people dont like it.

But I like it more than Eclipse. Wich is broken since they ever thought about it.
All the problems moonkins ever had were related to Eclipse. Well, at least after moonkin was at least viable.

And, really, why rotation should be interesting? Rotation is just that, a rotation. Add some aesthetic here and there, make AoE spells all shinny and whatever. But rotations are nothing more than rotations.
What should be fun is how the rotation you have act accordingly with the game itself. How it affects and is affected by bosses or other players. That should be the interesting part. Not eclipse.
Wich kinda reminds me a bit of the DKs runes. Wich, imo, is just as stupid and not fun at all.
#7 May 24 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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But rotations are nothing more than rotations.


The point is that Blizz is trying really hard to get rid of rotations, period. They don't like that players can auto-pilot to do max damage. And players don't enjoy that either.
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#8 May 24 2011 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
They do for a while, then they get bored. See Arcane mage. Was it fun doings lots of damage with little effort? Absolutely. I got bored of it pretty quickly though, once I started raiding regularly.
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#9 May 24 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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The objective is to try and design priority lists that:

1. Are structured so that, even excluding random parts, the rotations end up with such long periods that you can't memorize them.

2. Are sufficiently random/proc-based so that a level of intricacy remains to allow for skilled players to pull ahead.

3. These two factors--random and patterned--are structured so that the variance of damage based from chance is small enough that, in the worst case scenario, you still perform decently and, in the best case scenario, you reach a max dps roughly equal with all other classes.
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#10 May 24 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Quote:
But rotations are nothing more than rotations.


The point is that Blizz is trying really hard to get rid of rotations, period. They don't like that players can auto-pilot to do max damage. And players don't enjoy that either.

It's not autopilot. Rotations have to be "interesting" in a way you have to pay attention to one thing or another. They dont have to be "fun". Fun adds overcomplication, wich no rotation should be.
And theres no way to get rid of a rotation within the characters. There ways to minimize them depending on external factors. Different bosses make you have different rotations. But you will still have rotations to maximize your effectiveness.
Moonkins have several rotations right now, mostly due to eclipse. They are not getting rid of rotations. They are actually adding layers of rotations. You have your simple rotation Patchwerk-like wich is "boring". Then you have your rotation while you move, wich is plain stupid (Moonfire). Then you have your AoE rotation that is useless if you are not in Solar Eclipse and is utterly cumbersome to do in a fight like Heroic Halfus where the tank keeps moving from things on the ground and is really not good in a fight like Chogal where adds come from potentially diferent directions.
They wont get rid of rotations just because theres no way to do it unless every spell you have on your spellbook works the same way and have the same power, so it just wont matter what you cast.
#11 May 24 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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It's not autopilot. Rotations have to be "interesting" in a way you have to pay attention to one thing or another. They dont have to be "fun". Fun adds overcomplication, wich no rotation should be.


You aren't talking about rotations then--you are talking about priority lists. Rotations are like what DKs had last expac, where you literally did the same things, in the same order, every 10-20 seconds. Priority lists are what nearly every class/spec uses now.

Quote:
And theres no way to get rid of a rotation within the characters. There ways to minimize them depending on external factors. Different bosses make you have different rotations. But you will still have rotations to maximize your effectiveness.


A single random element to a class destroys rotations. That's really all it takes. If there's anything you only use when <x factor> occurs, and that factor isn't guaranteed by the rotation itself, then you now use a priority list.

Quote:

Moonkins have several rotations right now, mostly due to eclipse. They are not getting rid of rotations. They are actually adding layers of rotations. You have your simple rotation Patchwerk-like wich is "boring". Then you have your rotation while you move, wich is plain stupid (Moonfire). Then you have your AoE rotation that is useless if you are not in Solar Eclipse and is utterly cumbersome to do in a fight like Heroic Halfus where the tank keeps moving from things on the ground and is really not good in a fight like Chogal where adds come from potentially diferent directions.
They wont get rid of rotations just because theres no way to do it unless every spell you have on your spellbook works the same way and have the same power, so it just wont matter what you cast.


This actually reads as a priority list overall, though it is possible that the priority list contains what are essentially small rotations (aka patterns) that you repeat in X circumstances. Still though, boomkins definitely don't use a rotation.

That's what we mean when we say auto-pilot. To use a rotation not only requires no skill, it doesn't even require you to look at your screen (assuming the boss isn't moving, of course). My DK for much of last expac was basically just 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 5, repeat (or something like that).

Literally, that would give me my top dps on a pathwerk style fight. The only possible complication comes from CD usage, but that wasn't really intense at all.

That's not the case with boomkins and hasn't been since they first introduced eclipse. Believe me, you'd definitely notice a big increase in boredom if you played a rotation-based class after being used to Druid.
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#12 May 25 2011 at 9:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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#13 May 25 2011 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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I lol'd.
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#14 May 25 2011 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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FB isn't part of the system as of right now AFAIK.
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#15 May 25 2011 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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Wait, so what do you use your 5cp on if Rip and FB are both up with ample time left?
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#16 May 25 2011 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Wait, so what do you use your 5cp on if Rip and FBSR are both up with ample time left?


Shred.
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#17 May 25 2011 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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Wait, I'm confused (not about me using the wrong acronym).

So if you get 5 CP, and Rip is at (say) 10 seconds and you have 40 seconds left on SR, you still just use Shred? Those CP just sit there until you need to refresh Rip?
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#18 May 25 2011 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Wait, I'm confused (not about me using the wrong acronym).

So if you get 5 CP, and Rip is at (say) 10 seconds and you have 40 seconds left on SR, you still just use Shred? Those CP just sit there until you need to refresh Rip?


The DPE of FB is currently less than Shred, so yes most people just drop FB and keep Shredding.
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#19 May 25 2011 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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Well that's unfortunate. :/

Am I the only person that finds it really odd (and somewhat upsetting) that the two "standard" abilities of cats--Claw and FB--are both excluded from combat?
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#20 May 25 2011 at 11:17 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Well that's unfortunate. :/

Am I the only person that finds it really odd (and somewhat upsetting) that the two "standard" abilities of cats--Claw and FB--are both excluded from combat?


SR is a standard ability, as are both Rip and Rake. The only spec specific attack is Mangle, which is only used when Shred is not an option or to maintain a buff.
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#21 May 26 2011 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think standard is the word I should have used.

Hmmm, I guess I'm talking primarily about their... simplicity?

I mean, when you think about Druid at the onset of the game, it was essentially a Rogue clone (with lesser capabilities). It has since parted ways with them, but that was how it largely was at first.

Claw was essentially Sinister Strike, and Ferocious Bite was like Eviscerate. Both of these are still backbones of the Combat tree. But they aren't even used by Cats anymore. They're, in some ways, the central abilities that the combat system was founded on. It just strikes me as odd that Blizz didn't bother trying to keep them included in the rotation.

It would be like if, over time, Blizz added/changed spells so that Frost Mages no longer used Frostbolt. Or if Druids no longer used Rejuv (lol, oh wait).

It makes you wonder why they are even still in the game. ESPECIALLY Claw. FB might be patched to be worthwhile again. But Claw hasn't been worth using in a very, very long time. You use it for 2 levels until you get Mangle, and then there's no reason for it to ever be on your bar again.

Though I suppose you could just relate it to the other early-level abilities Blizz added in Cata, like Strike for Warriors...

Still seems like they should either remove it or do something to make it worth using (even if it isn't something you use regularly)...
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#22 May 26 2011 at 12:32 AM Rating: Good
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FB will make a return in 4.2 when it gets buffed.

Claw is used by the non-Feral specs as they don't get Mangle. So Feral used to use Claw until level 50, getting at level 8 makes sense as that is when you get Cat Form.
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#23 May 26 2011 at 6:10 AM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
FB will make a return in 4.2 when it gets buffed.

Claw is used by the non-Feral specs as they don't get Mangle. So Feral used to use Claw until level 50, getting at level 8 makes sense as that is when you get Cat Form.

Claw? More like lol.
What non-feral use that? Only reason to go cat form during fights is to run or to use cower. Why would I use claw?
#24 May 26 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Brisin wrote:
Horsemouth wrote:
FB will make a return in 4.2 when it gets buffed.

Claw is used by the non-Feral specs as they don't get Mangle. So Feral used to use Claw until level 50, getting at level 8 makes sense as that is when you get Cat Form.

Claw? More like lol.
What non-feral use that? Only reason to go cat form during fights is to run or to use cower. Why would I use claw?


If you fought a resto druid and both decided to only use Feral forms you would use Claw. :P
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#25 May 26 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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They should remove Mangle (Cat) and roll the debuff and damage into Claw. Mangle (Bear) can stay, but I'm tired of the sound and animation of Mangle (Cat). Needs more slashing, less *phtew*.
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#26 May 26 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
I object to the feral discussion in the Moonkin thread. Smiley: tongue
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#27 May 26 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Kitchen is that way --->

Go make me a sammich. And bring some beer.
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#28 May 26 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
You want a sandwich go make it yourself. I don't make sandwiches.
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#29 May 26 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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You want a sandwich go make it yourself. I don't make sandwiches.


You're lucky I can't be **** reaching through the internet to teach you a lesson, woman! Smiley: glare

Smiley: tongue
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#30 May 26 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
Hey you never know, I might like that. =x
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#31 May 26 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, you wouldn't.

I'd make sure of that. Smiley: sly
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#32 May 26 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
Now you've got me curious.
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#33 May 26 2011 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
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So feral discussion discussion is a no-no, but BDSM is fine?

Yup, this is the druid forum alright.
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#34 May 26 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
Mazra started it. >.>
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#35 May 26 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra started it. >.>


You encouraged him.
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#36 May 26 2011 at 11:03 PM Rating: Good
Yeah I tend to do that.
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#37 May 26 2011 at 11:31 PM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Yeah I tend to do that.


We know. We know. ;)
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#38 May 27 2011 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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I did moonkin stuff yesterday for the 1st time in months. Was weird.
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#39 May 27 2011 at 6:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I tried Crit-chicken, both on my 85 and on a new druid I was leveling. It just felt really clunky next to my Destro/Demo Lock and Ele Shaman, so I went back to kitty pew pew.
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#40 May 27 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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While leveling, just put yourself into an eclipse state and DoT everything you see. Preferably Solar, so your thorns will be buffed too. Especially once you get the talent that turns Moonfire into Sunfire.

I kill legions of mobs with 0 difficulty all at once. Just hit barkskin and/or cast rejuv if you ever find yourself in a tight spot. At worst you might need to toss out a Nourish.
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