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Ret/Prot Survivability Nerf IncomingFollow

#1 Feb 24 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Patch 4.1 Notes wrote:

Paladin
•Word of Glory now has a 20-second cooldown.

Holy
•Walk in the Light (passive) removes the cooldown of Word of Glory.

Protection
•Divine Guardian cooldown is now 3 minutes, up from 2.

Retribution
•Divine Storm now generates 1 point of Holy Power if it hits (i.e. successfully lands on) 4 or more targets.
•Sacred Shield's internal cooldown has been increased to 60 seconds, up from 30.


Was WoG really causing THAT much healing for Ret/Prot that it needs to be nerfed? I don't know from a PvP standpoint, but it never really healed for that much, and I would need to pop Zealotry to heal myself to full only using it, also by using it I'm sacrificing my DPS so it's a give and take scenario. I would also pop Zealotry and do a WoG spam as utility to the tank if the healer was dead or OOM. I really hope this nerf doesn't go through.

DS generating HP is a nice bonus on multi-mob pulls though.
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#2 Feb 24 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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That WoG nerf is going to outright kill Ret and Prot.

Let's *pray* someone at Blizz has some sense to say "Um, guys, no. Just no."

15k every 20 seconds is not enough to solo on, let alone anything else. Mobs in, say, Twilight Highlands normally hit for what, 3-4k melee strikes? Mobs swing what, 3-ish seconds? That's 6 attacks in 20 seconds... 6x4=24k damage taken every 20 seconds. Healing 15k of that? that's a losing battle, and that's against ONE mob.

What about all the insta-respawns in Tol Barad dailies? It'll be die, die, die again.. or "Prot or GTFO" like Frost DKs were/are "Blood or GTFO".

And then you got Prot Tanks... I can't imagine trying to tank with no WoG. I mean, seriously? Why don't they just remove the class altogether at this point, because that's basically what they are proposing here.
#3 Feb 24 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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I'm hoping for a change to this proposal as well...there are ways to buff it for holy without ******** over the other specs. If they want to keep the cooldown, then it better start healing for a heck of a lot more,
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#4 Feb 24 2011 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just saw their reasoning on the O-Boards

Quote:
Word of Glory: We hope Retribution and Protection Paladins occasionaly do the right healing to others, but as we know Paladins sometimes feel that Holy Power is only for the healing. We rather like these specs use more Holy Power on damage abilities, and occasionally heal.


I don't usually have a problem with nerfs if they can be explained well. But this is a ****-poor reason for putting the CD on WoG. Because some fail paladins are ONLY using Holy Power for Word of Glory, they are throwing a CD on it to... what? hint at these people that they should be damaging instead of healing? Does Bliz just want to regulate my entire rotation as well?

If I want to stand next to the healer and spam holy light on my party while everyone hates me or ONLY use my HP for WoG, that's my decision, and I will probably be kicked for it. But I should have the option and right to do so, damnit!

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#5 Feb 24 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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CapJack wrote:
I just saw their reasoning on the O-Boards

Quote:
Word of Glory: We hope Retribution and Protection Paladins occasionaly do the right healing to others, but as we know Paladins sometimes feel that Holy Power is only for the healing. We rather like these specs use more Holy Power on damage abilities, and occasionally heal.


I don't usually have a problem with nerfs if they can be explained well. But this is a ****-poor reason for putting the CD on WoG. Because some fail paladins are ONLY using Holy Power for Word of Glory, they are throwing a CD on it to... what? hint at these people that they should be damaging instead of healing? Does Bliz just want to regulate my entire rotation as well?

If I want to stand next to the healer and spam holy light on my party while everyone hates me or ONLY use my HP for WoG, that's my decision, and I will probably be kicked for it. But I should have the option and right to do so, damnit!



Not to mention, there are other things they could/should do instead:

Quote:
Word of Glory: We want Retribution and Protection paladins to have reasonable healing on themselves or others, but we know paladins sometimes feel like they can’t use their Holy Power on anything but their heals in some situations. We’d rather these two specs spend most of their Holy Power on damage-dealing abilities, with occasional healing


That's their original statement, right?

Quote:
Word of Glory: We want Retribution and Protection paladins to have reasonable healing on themselves or others,


As said before: 15k every 20 seconds is NOT reasonable. Even Frost DKs can heal more than that. Blood, even moreso.

Quote:
but we know paladins sometimes feel like they can’t use their Holy Power on anything but their heals in some situations.


Maybe if healing wasn't so ridiculously hard, then Paladins wouldn't be pressured/encouraged to throw WoGs like crazy everywhere just to prevent wipes (unless everyone's overgeared). Maybe if there wasn't so freaking much Splash Damage, but yet so little AoE healing, maybe paladins wouldn't be spamming WoG.

Quote:
We’d rather these two specs spend most of their Holy Power on damage-dealing abilities, with occasional healing


Maybe if TV scaled reasonably, so that 1x 3HoPo TV/Shield was the same as 3x 1HoPo TV/Shield (just like WoG) maybe people would use more TVs and SotRs. maybe if SotR actually did decent damage it might be worth more to a tank than WoG. Maybe if TV actually hit for more damage and we weren't REQUIRED to wait until 3 HoPo to use it (using it with 2, or especially 1, is worthless), we'd use it more. Trash packs die too fast for us to build up 3 HoPo and use TV. We can just wait 1-2 seconds and use HoW instead for MORE damage than the 3HoPo TV would have done, and use the 3HoPo to save the healer some mana so we can keep going. If I could use 1-2HoPo TV or Shields, I could spam them every fight, instead of WoGs.
#6 Feb 24 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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As might be expected, the forums at maintankadin have been all over this. What consensus there might be so far seems to be that raiding tanks have very few threat concerns (and in fact are actively avoiding/reforging hit and expertise), so they can afford to use all their HP on self-WoG, and it's easier (for the developers) just to make WoG into a mini-cooldown rather than (a) accept that tankadins are going to be balanced around self-healing, and increase their incoming damage to compensate, or (b) rebalance outgoing damage/threat so that it's a more-than-occasional choice whether to spend HP on healing or threat. Note that, in practice, a raid tank is only going to have 3HP per 9 seconds anyway, so this only doubles the cooldown.

As for ret, it's a PvP nerf drastically altering PvE mechanics. This is news? I think it will actually have more effect on leveling/soloing than instancing. I only do 5-mans in ret spec, and only occasionally when grouped with a healer who doesn't dual-spec for PvE, but in my limited experience when things are rocky enough to consider using HP for other than Inq/TV, bubble and LoH are more my go-to abilities - and that's even assuming that I happen to have 3HP at a convenient time for a self-WoG.
#7 Feb 24 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As for ret, it's a PvP nerf drastically altering PvE mechanics. This is news? I think it will actually have more effect on leveling/soloing than instancing.


You're **** right it will have more effect on leveling/soloing.

20second WoGs will -kill- solo Ret Paladins, especially in Tol Barad. Insta-respawns suck. I've been nearly killed when I get 4-5 mobs on me at once, and that's when I'm SPAMMING every possible HoPo into WoG every moment I can, and when I kill 1 mob, oh wait, 2 more are coming. If I try running in any direction, I'll get 3 more mobs on me.

What the **** am I supposed to do AFTER the nerf? 15k every 20 seconds is NOT going to sustain me in TB/TH. Do they expect us to blow 30% mana every other fight for Divine Light or something? Or are we supposed to be casting those in the middle of combat while mobs are beating away at us? By the time that DL finishes casting, which would heal me for 15-17k, I probably would have taken 10k+ damage anyways.
#8 Feb 24 2011 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Part of the problem some tanks feel the need to spend all HP on healing (talking instances here) could be the shield that we are provided through our talents (I forget which one right off hand >.>). That coupled with 0 threat issues, there's little reason NOT to use our HP for healing because it will never be wasted. I don't do this, I only use WoG if I'm 60% or lower to help the healers out, but I can see others doing this.

As said, this is really going to hurt solo play, particularly for Ret, but Prot to a certain extent as well. I personally haven't seen it as a big deal in PvP, but I don't PvP much, so I could be way off base in my observations there. It just seems to me liek this ability/mechanic is being made into a bigger deal than it really is, and once again PvE Ret/Prot are going to get the shaft for it.
#9 Feb 24 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As said, this is really going to hurt solo play, particularly for Ret, but Prot to a certain extent as well. I personally haven't seen it as a big deal in PvP, but I don't PvP much, so I could be way off base in my observations there. It just seems to me liek this ability/mechanic is being made into a bigger deal than it really is, and once again PvE Ret/Prot are going to get the shaft for it.


Yup, PvE nerfs because of PvP whining.

Oh, they claim that it is because "Rets are using too many heals" but um...

If they do, and if their raid/group is OK with that, so what?

What does it hurt? If they are dumping HoPo into WoG to heal, they are doing less DPS. Balanced, working as intended, et. al.

Now they're saying "Um, Silly Rets, you should be doing MAX DPS! Load up your Recounts!" ... didn't they say during Cataclysm Beta that they wanted people to be more Teamwork-minded?

Rets try that and what do they get in return for it? A huge class-breaking NERF BAT.

Nice.

Instead of nerfing the overpowered Divine Purpose + Eternal Glory exploits, they decided to aim a Mini-Nuke (forget the Super Sledge) at the whole class instead of using that Anti-Materiel Rifle on the real problem.
#10 Feb 25 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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Im just upset at what this does to my abilities at soloing tBC stuff. Soloing Magtheridon is definitely going to be a bit harder than it used to be due to only being able to heal myself half as much.
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#11 Feb 25 2011 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I feel really bad for leveling Paladins. I got to 85 right before the first WoG nerf, and now they're pulling this.

In AoE situations there is hardly any reason to shield slam. Now I know they don't want much AoE going on anymore, but it happens. As a Paladin, being able to go into that AoE mode allows us to focus on other things, such as group member's health and cleanses.

Paladin may have been one of the easier Tank classes to play, but it certainly wasn't OP. And for leveling, this will make them outright underpowered. Guessing insight will be used a lot more now.

Anyways, maybe this will make them backtrack on their old nerfs, or at least swing back in that direction of making a single WoG relatively potent. I know that when I'm in a WoG-spamming mood, I get a more than 2 off every 20 seconds, with talents like Eternal Glory and Pursuit of Justice. Every time they nerf WoG they nerf talents like this and the unforeseen consequences reverberate against the lower levels.
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#12 Feb 25 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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As Prot you can use a HoPo generating attack every 3 seconds, this means that at peak efficiency in your rotation you will only be using one Word of Glory to every two Shield of Righteousness. That is your self healing cut by 66% without even counting in the fact that your Eternal Glory procs cant be used for WoG either.

To put it simply. One is not amused.
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#13 Feb 25 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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And if the changes actually go through, I'm going to be sitting there with a Full HoPo meter trash pull after trash pull because there's really not much reason to use it, or, by the time I do get those 3 HoPos I could just wait a sec and use Hammer of Wrath instead.

Sure, I could try spamming the button, HOPING to get it off on a mob that hasn't been hit much yet, but meh. Healing myself was always a better use of resources, especially <80.

And AoE Damage?

They are BUFFING that.

Warriors' Whirlwinds CD get reset if they hit 4 mobs, Paladins gain a HoPo if they hit 4 targets with Divine Storm, Shamans' Fire Nova is 4 sec cooldown (down from what was that 6? 8?), etc etc.

Now they're saying they want us to AoE MOAR.
#14 Feb 27 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Just as i was getting closer and closer to completing a kael'thas solo too. :( Not happy, chaps.

I guess it's to break the wogger prot build in raids, and probably because ret with wings and zealotry up could do 50k WoGs on teammates in arena every other global. As has already been discussed though, it really kills solo and leveling rets. Twilight highlands was hard enough as ret! Leveling my warrior is a joke, glyphed and talented victory rush restores almost half my total health.
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#15 Mar 01 2011 at 6:59 AM Rating: Default
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A new kick in the pants:

Death Knights now have a battle rez.

That's nice.

Frost DKs will self-heal more than us Ret paladins, will have more raid viability, and do more DPS. Heck, Blood Tanks won't even have to shift out of bear form for their B-rez! That's even better than a druid's B-rez! Blood Tanks also have a lot more self-healing than a Prot tank will.

Nice!

Why, again, am I playing my paladins?

Edited, Mar 1st 2011 8:00am by Lyrailis
#16 Mar 01 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Where is this "More raid utility" complaint coming from?

Ret Aura - Unique to Paladins
Concentration Aura - Unique to Paladins (as far as I know)
Hand of Salvation - Unique to Paladins
Hand of Sacrifice - Unique to Paladins
Hand of Freedom - Unique to Paladins
Hand of Protection - Unique to Paladins
Lay on Hands - Unique to Paladins
Resistance Aura - Only brought by Resto Shamans I think.

We also bring BoM, BoK, Replenishment, Repentance, Holy Radiance (we have free global cooldowns, might as well use it,)

Prior to this change, Death Knights brought only 3 buffs to a raid. Horn of Winter, which is copied by 3 other classes. Icy Talons, which is copied by 2 other classes and either the 4% Physical damage or 8% Magic Damage debuffs. Hunters bring the physical debuff, probably another class does as well. Warlocks and Oomkins bring the magic debuff.


Deathknights were the class with a lack of raid utility. If Deathknights are chosen over Ret Paladins, it is because they do more damage than us. Dont complain about raid utility, complain about our damage.
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#17 Mar 01 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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EbanySalamonderiel wrote:

Concentration Aura - Unique to Paladins (as far as I know)
Resistance Aura - Only brought by Resto Shamans I think.


Con Aura can be given by Shaman now too, Totem of Tranquil Mind. Shaman can Glyph their Healing Totem to also grant the resistance buff. Other than that, looks right :)
#18 Mar 01 2011 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I worry about using prot in pvp and solo mobs. I foresee more deaths. I suggest the WoG heal to be off holypower to solve the reason for the stated problem. It's tricky to hit every time for getting it available in pvp and on mobs youre about to die when you start to spam it.

Clearly a bad change with 30 sec's cd that will make it rather useless anyway.

Another thing is Tauren paladins and horde in general having stun and interupt racials to the extent of insane when grouped, so an alliance palla don't have the needed heal in a picky situation - something I used recently that give me a chance - I think horde racials are causing this problem - as watching a Youtube video of a Tauren palla made me wonder how he could stay going on and on and heal up with WoG. Of course the stuns give room for such. The other way around with alliance pallas, a struggle to get out of stuns.

Adressing the horde vs alliance racials imbalance is the thing to address here, not a heal that need to proc of hitting something - a long cd will make it complicated and not instant help the pala for a tiny heal.

In pvp the healing could be lowered even more or more spells turned off and the resilence effect of damage reduction be higher (lower damage), maybe as a base effect not from gear, as I still see people showing up in pve gear for whatever reason (the usual reason is the collection of resilence gear.) - getting oneshot in pvp over and over is not fun, whether your noob or have skills.


#19 Mar 02 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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CapJack wrote:
Because some fail paladins are ONLY using Holy Power for Word of Glory, they are throwing a CD on it to... what? hint at these people that they should be damaging instead of healing?


Hope you were referring to Retribution Paladins there. I use Word of Glory all the time while tanking. Sure, Shield of the Righteous might increase my threat, but it's not like I'm lacking in single target TPS anyway.

WoG helps with survivability which is what tanking is all about. The 20-second cooldown will likely mean I'm switching out of Eternal Glory and going back to Hallowed Ground. Because Paladin AOE sucks, right?
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#20 Mar 02 2011 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I was referring to Ret, I know Prot tends to heavily use WoG instead of their threat increasing skills. I think they should just nerf some of prots threat then if they arent having to spend their HP on threat. I'm just not a fan of Blizzard regulating both prot and ret to the extent of adding such a long cooldown on our only instant heal. Or if they are going to do this, then give us Holy Light to work with Art of War so I have to give up an exorcism to do holy light if I'd like.
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#21 Mar 02 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Yeah I was referring to Ret, I know Prot tends to heavily use WoG instead of their threat increasing skills. I think they should just nerf some of prots threat then if they arent having to spend their HP on threat. I'm just not a fan of Blizzard regulating both prot and ret to the extent of adding such a long cooldown on our only instant heal. Or if they are going to do this, then give us Holy Light to work with Art of War so I have to give up an exorcism to do holy light if I'd like.


You say that like it's an easy feat. And not just easy, but a worthwhile one. It is neither.

In order for WoG to never (or only rarely) be a better choice than SoR, threat will need to matter for a whole fight. Boss fights last a long time in raids, and the entire purpose of vengeance is to ensure that, if the tank can keep threat for the start of the fight, he will have it later.

So, even if they nerf threat, WoG is still going to be an attractive option later in a fight. And healing also does threat, so it isn't like WoG is a waste even in a situation where threat matters.

So then they'd need to nerf vengeance, which means completely changing their design scheme for tank threat in Cata. For the sake of one ability. That's ridiculous. And WoG was never meant to be a spammed ability for Tankadins (though it so obviously was going to be). And remember that vengeance buffs WoG, so it becomes a significant heal as your ap caps out.

As for Ret, I have yet to see a valid argument for why WoG was needed. It makes no difference in end-game PvE. It makes a difference in PvP, which is specifically why it is getting nerfed. It makes a small difference in soloing, but that's already where Pallies are one of the strongest classes in the game.
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#22 Mar 03 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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IMHO Blizzard needs to weave HoPo and the BC version of Holy Shield together.

An easy way to nerf WoG for a Tankadin would be to make it no longer proc Holy Shield.

If that doesn't work, lower our unbuffed Block Value and increase the amount given to us by Holy Shield. This would force a Tankadin to choose between a clutch mini heal and a strong, sustained form of mitigation.



Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 7:36am by arthoriuss
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#23 Mar 03 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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That's essentially what they did, except you aren't so much choosing as alternating CDs.

SoR--20 seconds of +10% block mitigation.
WoG--A personal heal with a 20 sec CD.

3x HP generated every 9 seconds.

I'll grant that perhaps they should lower the CD to 18 seconds, to sync with Prot's HP production (or at least give prot a talent that lowers its CD by 2).
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#24 Mar 03 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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Longer blue post related to the WoG cooldown.

Quote:
Word of Glory cooldown in 4.1
The assessment that Word of Glory is meant for more occasional use is rather close to the mark. That's also part of the reason that we're comfortable with employing a cooldown solution in this case. We think that it’s more interesting for Word of Glory to be a reasonably powerful heal that's used infrequently, than if it were a weaker heal used more often. We also like the way Word of Glory interacts with Vengeance because then the heal scales with the content. If you’re taking a lot of damage, the heal is more potent than it would be otherwise.

We also didn’t really think that healing was necessarily a problem for Protection paladins. We just weren't happy with the style of gameplay it was causing players to adopt. We had tanks telling us “I just miss using actual attacks, like Shield of the Righteous. Every time I use SotR it feels like I'm playing wrong.” While technically a tank had a choice between threat and survival, we felt it was an illusion of choice because tanks often (and rightfully) worry about survival first and foremost. You still have the choice between generating threat and healing, but since the healing will be lower overall, the trade off should matter less.

The self-healing ability of other tanks has been brought up in this context. When comparing tanks, we look at the whole package, not individual abilities or talents. Deathknights, for example, are designed with less innate damage mitigation than Protection paladins, but they have a lot of self-healing to compensate. It’s okay, of course, for paladins to have some self-healing (they are a class with healing spells after all), but that has to be balanced against their better built-in damage mitigation. We try to tune tanking classes close enough so that they can all tank effectively, but without making them all function identically.

We're not too concerned with keeping Protection viable in PvP. We know some players enjoy it, but the majority of Prot paladins are more concerned with their ability to tank, and that’s where we spend most of our Protection design effort. It’s a great goal to make all of a class's specs viable in PvP, but it's not always possible to do so and paladins have other options.

I realize that Word of Glory is also on Retribution's platter at the moment, and we have something to share about its role in that spec as well, despite this being the tanking forum.

We think the 4.06 changes overall gave Retribution too great a buff for PvP. We realize that there are those that disagree, but we're pretty firm on that point and we needed to make some adjustments. Given that Ret is primarily a dps spec, we thought it made more sense to reduce their off-healing capacity, which had become quite strong, rather than their damage.

That's not to say that we mind a hybrid dps spec occasionally helping out with healing – that feels cool, and it's appropriate. On the other hand, we want damage focused specs to be primarily focused on dps. It's true that there were other ways we could have reduced Retribution healing. We could have changed Selfless Healer or even Word of Glory itself. As I mentioned earlier, after looking things over, we arrived at the conclusion that having a powerful heal you can use infrequently is more compelling than having a weak heal that you can use more often. (Source)


According to that last sentence it seems that they may be buffing WoG to compinsate for the cooldown.
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#25 Mar 07 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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Ret wasnt even that strong in 3v3, Blizzard is seriously making me scratch my head lately. Remember when they nerfed 2v2 and claimed 3v3 was the balancing bracket? Yeah ret, feral, nowhere on the radar in those brackets. Holy is pathetic right now. Instead of nerfing mediocre classes like ret or feral they could drastically buff holy paladins which is what they need to be competitive in their "balancing bracket" which lately I feel like is a load of BS. Resto shamans are by far the dominant healers in 3s followed by druids/priests which are pretty close. Any nerfs to them? Nope. Nerfs to mediocre damage specs who are FAR from the top of the arena ladders? Yep. They just dont make any sense at all.
#26 Mar 07 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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I pretty much gave up on ret pvp somewhere in the middle of the last expansion. It'll probably still be semi-viable in 3v3 with a hunter so you can provide freedom and stuns to supplement a proper dps class.

What i've mostly been playing lately is my sub rogue. He's still quite badly geared, 1400 resi or so but it's refreshing to have the kind of survivability that stealth and passive healing afford. Recuperate can be set up in seconds, (in stealth if you like with premeditation) can't be dispelled and heals for about 55 - 60k over 30 seconds, and that will go up a lot as i get more pvp gear. The 5 CP cost is offset by the 120 free energy it supplies through talents. Imagine if the selfless healer buff lasted 3 times as long and procced from healing yourself. I have much better and more numerous defensive cooldowns than ret too. It's nice to have burst damage on demand with no setup at all, or fear of dispels.
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