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Shield nerf in 5... 4... 3... 2...Follow

#1 Feb 16 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Except not for holy, neener neener.

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The cost of Power Word: Shield is being increased by 33%. While we wanted Discipline priests to be able to utilize this spell more often and with better results, we also did not want it to be the main spell (and often the only spell) used while in groups. We don’t find this to be a particularly compelling playstyle and have found that it encourages players to avoid using other spells such as Penance. We believe that using a shield in a tight moment is totally appropriate, but we don’t want it to be incredibly efficient to do so with more frequency than that.

We realize that by making Power Word: Shield slightly more expensive for Discipline priests to cast that it might cause Holy priests to avoid using it. To that end, we are adding mana savings into the Body and Soul talent. The tooltip will not reflect this change until a future patch, however. Ideally, Holy priests should not notice much of a change to the Power Word: Shield costs.


(emphasis mine)

Quote:
We anticipate having these in relatively soon (possibly as soon as sometime today). We'll do our best to let you know once they're in and we'll be updating the notes on the Hotfix thread as well.


Full post on healer hotfixes.

My QQ on the matter: The idea that shield will cost less for holy than disc is just... stupid. From what little dabbling with my disc spec I've done since the patch, it seems happy now precisely because it's become worth it to use shield regularly - no, not exclusively, but regularly - again. Regularly, not "in a tight moment," is how it should be used for a spec that's largely designed around shield. And I stopped playing disc precisely because the idea that an absorption healer should only use their primary absorb "in a tight moment" is just... stupid. I enjoy my holy spec quite a lot now, but that doesn't mean I won't whine about feeling forced into it because they killed the mitigation play style. So: WAAAHHH
#2 Feb 16 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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From what I gathered, it was needed. A disc priest in my guild was pulling off top healing done with ease with 80% of his heals being PW:S. Lich King fight all over again.

Though your QQ is kind of justified - it does make very little sense for disc's PW:S to be more expensive than holy's PW:S, even if it works.
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#3 Feb 16 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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That's ridiculous. So what the **** is Disc supposed to do? And what's the point in having a talent that reduces the CD of PW:S if you are only using it as an oh-sh*t button? Why even go Disc anymore? I just glanced through the talent tree--nearly every spell involves offense or shields (or spells cast while weakened soul is on the target). FOUR talents directly increase output regardless of shields (and one is Inner Focus and another creates a shield).

The state of healing in this expansion is such a joke.

[EDIT]

It makes sense for PWS to not be your most efficient spell, but it shouldn't be one of your last resorts either. Especially not when your whole tree is designed around:

Reducing the PSW CD, reducing the Weakened Soul duration, giving a mana bonus when your shield is fully absorbed, giving you haste on your next spell after PWS, etc. Sure, Penance is awesome, but when your spec's only real pro is on 10 sec CD...

Edited, Feb 16th 2011 4:33pm by idiggory
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#4 Feb 16 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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this is nuts. disc was supposed to be a talent that reduced the amount of damage taken. lets see holy heals shadow does dps and disc reduced the amount of damage taken. this all makes sense so lets take the shield and make it cost more is like saying to a holy that all their heal spells will cost more or shadow that their dps spells will cost more.

lets make this easier for everyone and make a preist a healer and thats it. every preist should be holy and anyone that wants to play shadow should role a lock.

seems like as soon as you really learn the ins and outs of your class here comes a nerf.
#5 Feb 16 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
idiggory wrote:
Reducing the PSW CD, reducing the Weakened Soul duration, giving a mana bonus when your shield is fully absorbed, giving you haste on your next spell after PWS


spending all those talent points on something where:

Quote:
using a shield in a tight moment is totally appropriate


not to mention our mastery stat. I love the idea of having a very powerful shield, but a certain synergy between talents and use of a signature spell seems to be lacking. Why spec into instant shields if you only use it in a pinch. I'm thinking maybe I should spend those Soul Warding points somewhere else. That will force me into the new "Desperate Shields" play style. Devine Aegis after PoH may be the best shield of all.
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#6 Feb 16 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure what all the QQ is about. The problem is that stuff looks wrong on paper - it's still doing well in practice? You can ***** all you want, but the fact is disc priests were still topping meters quite massively. Disc is far from broken. If you think it is, do both of us a favour and reroll resto-shaman. Sure, things are off and odd in some situations (what Teacake pointed out in the OP), but nothing that's happened or happening warrants any of this;

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So what the **** is Disc supposed to do?

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The state of healing in this expansion is such a joke.

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lets make this easier for everyone and make a preist a healer and thats it. every preist should be holy and anyone that wants to play shadow should role a lock.


In fact, Blizzard just gave disc (and priests in general) a major buff while we were already more than fine. You can whine all you want about Smite healing being pointless and PW:S costing more mana as disc than as holy, but don't add to the humongous amounts of ******-QQ that's already out there. Besides, we're not even sure yet what the impact of this change will be. PW:S is massively overused in its current state, and a nerf like this might put it on par with (Greater) Heal - which is exactly how it should be.
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#7 Feb 16 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm not really crying. I really like disc healing, as well as our new super shield. I don't see a little extra mana as a big issue. I don't use as many shields as i used to anyway. I am tempted to re-evaluate my need for instant shield cooldown though.

Edit: I spec'd out of Soul Warding as an experiment in not casting too many shields. It just didn't feel right, so I put it back. I haven't noticed any mana difference, so I guess it's not a big deal.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 10:06pm by dadanox
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#8 Feb 16 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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First of all, I don't think the hotfix is in yet, so I'm not sure how it'll be in practice for me. I do know that in PVP I have been the healing class with the most mana problems so a mana nerf strikes me as the wrong approach, from my perspective. But I am fine with waiting and seeing. It's not the nerf that's bothering me, it's their stated goal for this ability.

Second, as noted above, I have no problem with them adjusting the math. If it's OP, it's OP, and I am cool with fixing that. But the philosophy of "you should only use the spell your spec and mastery are built around IN A PINCH" is a big problem for me. If they truly bring shield down to that point, that's just silly. Disc should be using shield the way holy uses CoH. A lot. But not too much.

Third, I just finished an arena match with my experimental Disc spec at 98% health and 95% mana against a DK and a holy pally, so, I guess there's wiggle room there.
#9 Feb 16 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm not really crying. I really like disc healing, as well as our new super shield. I don't see a little extra mana as a big issue. I don't use as many shields as i used to anyway. I am tempted to re-evaluate my need for instant shield cooldown though.

I was talking to Diggory and Shades mostly - you were the only poster ('part from Teacake and me) here that wasn't whining.

In a similar fashion and in reaction to Teacake's post; aye, that's exactly what I'm saying. There's still an awful lot of stuff 'off' about disc - it's just that people shouldn't start whining about the spec being 'unplayable' or 'underpowered' when it's clearly not. It's just odd. It's like a one-legged pirate playing pro golf leagues. It's weird, but if he's beating Tiger Woods then you can barely call him handicapped. Complain about his outfit, not his play.
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#10 Feb 16 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
I was mainly trying to be witty, something I often fail at.
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#11 Feb 16 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just so we're clear, does this pirate resemble Johnny Depp in any way?

And I always find you witty Dadanox.
#12 Feb 16 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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The fix is in all ready I think. Rapture is nerfed a bit with this change. Also it just pushes being able to shield spam back a tier and does nothing to fix the issue.

Plus the PW:S spam was done mainly in 25 man raids. Change is retarded and does nothing to actually address the issue. Mastery is still not affecting enough spells reliably and OP on a few things. As the shield spam will shift to PoH spam for those with gear/regen to spam when combined with 25 man raid mana regen support, ie Boomkin Innervates and extra Mana Tide Totems.

Stupid change is stupid.
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#13 Feb 16 2011 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Much rephrasing and clarifying to a more reasonable stance:

Quote:
Power Word: Shield will still have its time and place and as always. We want it to be used often, we just don't want it used to the exclusion of all other abilities. We'll keep an eye on how things play out once the change is applied too.


Quote:
We want people using Power Word: Shield. As others have pointed out, it's something Discipline priests do well (Damage Mitigation) and it took awhile before more people began to believe that (remember those days?). Damage Mitigation will still happen and is still important even with this change, it's just not going to be the ONLY thing that the Discipline spec is going to be using to keep their groups and Raids up.


As for the nerf itself, evidently it is live now. I did 7 arena matches tonight as Disc and at least one was pre-hotfix. I really didn't notice a particular change to my longevity. Probably because there's only two of us and I'm not spamming shield on 25 people. Battlegrounds on Friday night will probably be a better test, if I switch to Disc for some of those.
#14 Feb 16 2011 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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Ya just double checked, the change is live. Rapture no longer gives back more mana than the shield costs.

Woot...
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#15 Feb 16 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Second, as noted above, I have no problem with them adjusting the math. If it's OP, it's OP, and I am cool with fixing that. But the philosophy of "you should only use the spell your spec and mastery are built around IN A PINCH" is a big problem for me. If they truly bring shield down to that point, that's just silly. Disc should be using shield the way holy uses CoH. A lot. But not too much.


This.

Quote:
I was talking to Diggory and Shades mostly - you were the only poster ('part from Teacake and me) here that wasn't whining.

In a similar fashion and in reaction to Teacake's post; aye, that's exactly what I'm saying. There's still an awful lot of stuff 'off' about disc - it's just that people shouldn't start whining about the spec being 'unplayable' or 'underpowered' when it's clearly not. It's just odd. It's like a one-legged pirate playing pro golf leagues. It's weird, but if he's beating Tiger Woods then you can barely call him handicapped. Complain about his outfit, not his play.


No one has said anything about Disc being OP or not. My complaint is that all the flavor of the spec disappears if your signature ability is one you never use.

Let me put it this way--say you are an Assasination Rogue. Most of your talents involve either poisons or Mut. Now suppose that they decided that they wanted Mut to be a burst ability only used while Vendetta was up, and Envenom once again absorbed your Deadly Poison stacks on the target. Also assume that, despite this, Rogues were consistently #1 DpS because their auto-attacks did so much damage.

I would not be happy as an Assasination Rogue. Yes, I like being balanced or OP--it's more fun than being worse off. But I would rather be able to play my preferred spec and have that spec be interesting and unique than be OP. Talents are part of what makes a spec unique.

Right now, the majority of Disc's points are going to a spell that they don't intend to be regularly used, as well as its mastery. I don't care if it's the best healer in the game--that sucks.

[EDIT]

Especially considering PWS use made it one of the most unique specs before they decided to take that out of the regular rotation.

Edited, Feb 16th 2011 9:40pm by idiggory
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#16 Feb 16 2011 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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I've decided to think of PW:S as as ~2k mana 10% crit buff that lasts for 15s. Easier that way.
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#17 Feb 16 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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Can someone explain to me what the issue is with a shield that:

-Is above average in mana efficiency, but not the best and doesn't absorb a ton.
-Can only be placed on a target once every x seconds.
-Has its own (short) CD--maybe 4 seconds untalented (2 after), so you can't just shield the whole party without thought.

I mean, that seems like a perfectly acceptable spell. It isn't too powerful, it isn't too mana efficient and you can't ensure that no one ever takes damage. I see the issue with always having a shield up. I don't see why casting a moderate number of shields is an issue. Is the glyph a prime offender here?

And if there were talents to buff Penance as well, the two would make a moderately cohesive tree (PvE-wise, at least).

Edit:

Blue responses to this.

TL;DR:

They want Disc to use shield, but want them to use all their other spells. So they've decided to do is to make PW:S something you use less frequently. My favorite part is when he mentions that Disc priests have talents to buff other spells (lol).

That's fine... if the entire spec wasn't designed around the ability. If they don't want Disc to rely on shields, then their talent tree shouldn't be designed around them relying on shields. Their mastery shouldn't only affect shields.

They say they want Disc to still be the mitigation tree...

I feel like they have absolutely no vision for the tree, or any idea how to go about getting there.

Because, at the end of the day, PW:S is just going to get better each tier, as Priests gain Mastery. Even if it is an oh-sh*t button now, it may not stay that way once it is 40-50% stronger due to mastery. How are they gonna stop Priests from prioritizing shield then?

Edited, Feb 16th 2011 10:32pm by idiggory
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#18 Feb 16 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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The problem is Soul Warding.

edit:

The mana change of today will not matter in the next raiding tier. That is the main reason why it is stupid. They need to remove Soul Warding or they will just have to raise the mana cost again, which will royally ***** shadow/disc PvP and less geared Disc priests.

So ya remove Soul Warding and add something to buff Penance there. A boost to Atonement would be nice as well. Something to help disc PvP mana would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

Edited, Feb 16th 2011 5:39pm by Horsemouth
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#19 Feb 16 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Decent
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No one has said anything about Disc being OP or not. My complaint is that all the flavor of the spec disappears if your signature ability is one you never use.

...

I would not be happy as an Assasination Rogue. Yes, I like being balanced or OP--it's more fun than being worse off. But I would rather be able to play my preferred spec and have that spec be interesting and unique than be OP. Talents are part of what makes a spec unique.

Right now, the majority of Disc's points are going to a spell that they don't intend to be regularly used, as well as its mastery. I don't care if it's the best healer in the game--that sucks.

No offense, but if that's true, you picked your words poorly. I've said, twice now, that I don't mind complaints about flavor - you said things like "What the **** is disc supposed to do?", "Why even go disc anymore?" and "Sure, Penance is awesome, but when your spec's only real pro is on 10 sec CD... ". That, to me, at least indicates a "the whole spec is flawed and pointless", which is a polite way of saying "disc is underpowered". Maybe I read too much into your post because of shades' even more biased post right behind it, but you can't say that doesn't at least indicate a complaint about Disc's performance.

Aside from that though - especially with their latest comment, I'm still not all too worried. I think PW:S will end up in the right spot. I will still share the complaint that the tree is off, though - they could at least make Smite healing worth it.
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#20 Feb 16 2011 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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Mozared wrote:
Quote:
No one has said anything about Disc being OP or not. My complaint is that all the flavor of the spec disappears if your signature ability is one you never use.

...

I would not be happy as an Assasination Rogue. Yes, I like being balanced or OP--it's more fun than being worse off. But I would rather be able to play my preferred spec and have that spec be interesting and unique than be OP. Talents are part of what makes a spec unique.

Right now, the majority of Disc's points are going to a spell that they don't intend to be regularly used, as well as its mastery. I don't care if it's the best healer in the game--that sucks.

No offense, but if that's true, you picked your words poorly. I've said, twice now, that I don't mind complaints about flavor - you said things like "What the **** is disc supposed to do?", "Why even go disc anymore?" and "Sure, Penance is awesome, but when your spec's only real pro is on 10 sec CD... ". That, to me, at least indicates a "the whole spec is flawed and pointless", which is a polite way of saying "disc is underpowered". Maybe I read too much into your post because of shades' even more biased post right behind it, but you can't say that doesn't at least indicate a complaint about Disc's performance.

Aside from that though - especially with their latest comment, I'm still not all too worried. I think PW:S will end up in the right spot. I will still share the complaint that the tree is off, though - they could at least make Smite healing worth it.


Making PW:S unusable as a raid heal, combined with the PoH nerf does seriously push Disc into a tank healing role. I'm ok with that but the ability to be flexible with regards to that would be nice.

The tree being off is the best way of putting it I've heard so far. It has a theme with shields and Smite, which is cool. But the execution is just flawed. They need to adjust it away from pure PW:S and more into shields, both PW:S and DA, Smite and Penance.
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#21 Feb 16 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
No offense, but if that's true, you picked your words poorly. I've said, twice now, that I don't mind complaints about flavor - you said things like "What the **** is disc supposed to do?", "Why even go disc anymore?" and "Sure, Penance is awesome, but when your spec's only real pro is on 10 sec CD... ". That, to me, at least indicates a "the whole spec is flawed and pointless", which is a polite way of saying "disc is underpowered". Maybe I read too much into your post because of shades' even more biased post right behind it, but you can't say that doesn't at least indicate a complaint about Disc's performance.


A. You've said complaints about flavor are justified after the post you just quoted. So that really makes no sense in the context of an argument.

B. In order to read it that way you have to assume that I'm asserting that Disc is less powerful than Holy, which you have no reason to do. I never said so, and the whole point of the blue post in question was to say that these changes were reducing the disparity between heals.

C. I'll grant that you could read it to assert that Disc is underpowered, but only if you are looking for it to say so. In the context of the whole post, which is complaining about the fact that so many talents focus on buffing what is now an oh-sh*t button, I don't think you are justified.

D. My edit, which is where the quote comes from, is clear that my complaint is how they are changing things, not that they are changing them. I don't give a **** if Disc priests are now stronger--I think it's a terrible design choice. I see no reason to find Disc interesting as it stands (at least not once Smite healing is no longer viable).
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#22 Feb 17 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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More nerfs to disc please. My husband doesn't want me to go back to holy now. :(
#23 Feb 17 2011 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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More nerfs to disc please. My husband doesn't want me to go back to holy now. :(

Smiley: lol That's funny. When I play Holy, my guild asks me to switch back to disc (but that may have more to do with me).

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#24 Feb 17 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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The Honorable dadanox wrote:

When I play Holy, my guild asks me to switch back to disc (but that may have more to do with me).


Is that because of the role you're playing, like tank healing vs. raid healing? Or just because you're better at disc? Or do you think there's just a general perception that disc is better? One thing I love about my guild is they never ask you to spec a certain way. As long as nobody's carrying you, your spec is your business.

The proactive playstyle of disc is a better fit for me, hands down. I've always enjoyed it and still do. But I should've known when I declared my undying loyalty to it during Wrath that I was asking for trouble. I'm like a small child. They gave holy all these toys. I like toys. When I don't have them, I whine.
#25 Feb 17 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm playing disc PvP (holy PvE).

The change to Disc with 4.0.6 was huge. Wasn't it something like 200% stronger shields for 30% more mana? I'm not suprised it was considered too much. Grace and penance changes were nice little buffs to healing.

I'd like it if somehow more could be made of divine aegis. To make mastery, or even some of the shield talents more all-round useful.
#26 Feb 17 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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I can see them removing Divine Aegis and making it the mastery bonus, applied to all (or many) healing spells.

And thinking about that, I would LOVE if Renew could create minishields. XD It would be super random, but so funny. (Of course, not so funny if the renew aegis blocked your other, stronger shields. :P)
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