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What is the current standard spec for PVE?Follow

#1 Jan 03 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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I haven’t really found a definitive answer to this…

Back at the end of TBC, it was fire mages. Then came Wrath and we started seeing the rise of the Frost-Firebolt (Crit) spec. Then as gearing continued it was pure Arcane. By the end of Wrath, Arcane was the accepted raid spec. Fire or Frost-Fire were considered ok, but sub-optimal and frost was… well it was what it always was. (Something Blizzard wanted us to use in raids, but was generally considered a DPS loss by most of the community.)

So, what is it now?

Arcane seems to top the DPS meters, but not the Damage meters. Fire seems to be good for multi-mob bosses, but does it stack up head-to-head vs Arcane on a pure 1-target fight???
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#2 Jan 03 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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From what I have read:

Fire is the best when appropriately raid geared

Frost is in the middle if played properly

Arcane is the lowest and is being looked at by Blizzard on how to improve it.

The reasoning for this is because almost all of the fights (apparently, I haven't done them just read about them) have a ton of movement which benefits fire the most and arcane the least.
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#3 Jan 03 2011 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I've seen and heard basically what Anobix said. Arcane is horrible - Frost is decent and on par with Fire with Fire being more 'volatile'. Think of it like this - if Frost will net you a steady 10K DPS, Fire nets you a DPS of 8500-11.500. Until your get the proper gear that is, after which Fire starts just being better on average.
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#4 Jan 08 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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From what I understand, 3/35/3 is currently the fire spec to use at the moment.
#5 Jan 08 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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OnimenoJason wrote:
From what I understand, 3/35/3 is currently the fire spec to use at the moment.


Looks right to me, I assume you can probably put one point or two into Arcane Concentration to get a bit more mana efficiency.
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#6 Jan 08 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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Anobix wrote:
OnimenoJason wrote:
From what I understand, 3/35/3 is currently the fire spec to use at the moment.


Looks right to me, I assume you can probably put one point or two into Arcane Concentration to get a bit more mana efficiency.
One point is recommended on the EJ thread iirc, being as much of a DPS upgrade as each point in Netherwind. Beyond one point is not considered worth it.

At least, I think that's what I recall reading. I just woke up.
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#7 Jan 17 2011 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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omg being asked to SPEC fire ....never did before

I am so confused about rotation.

I read the fire EJ article and its too much...

Bleh....any help would be so appreciated...

Vyn


PS Hope everyone is happy and dps is high lol !!
#8 Jan 17 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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Vynestra1 wrote:
omg being asked to SPEC fire ....never did before

I am so confused about rotation.

I read the fire EJ article and its too much...

Bleh....any help would be so appreciated...

Vyn


PS Hope everyone is happy and dps is high lol !!
I've found it to be a process of trial and error. There are the basics(Hot Streaked Pyro when it's up, keep up Living Bomb, Combustion when you have LB/Pyro/Ignite DoTs all up, Fireblast when you have Ignite up and mobs to spread your DoTs to), and then it's a matter of filling in the rest with scorches and fireballs(or Frostfire Bolts, depending on which you glyphed). Optimally, you want to be casting nothing but fireballs except when you have to move, but currently that'll send you OOM. So you play with alternating the two in varying ratios until you find the sweet spot where you can chaingun fireballs after the boss reaches 35% health and just barely go OOM as the boss dies.

So you play with it until you find that sweet spot. I'd suggest starting with roughly 2 fireballs to every 3 scorches at first and adjusting up or down until you find it. Remember to factor in mana gem usage for shorter fights(like non heroic/some heroic bosses) and evocates for longer ones(some heroics, and most raids).

Have a friend drop some AoE(Flamestrike or Death and Decay, for instance) on you in random intervals to simulate needed movement if you do your practice on some test dummies.
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#9 Jan 18 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok... I think its just understainding DOT - so this helps.

I am being asked cause everyone is so focused on damage > DPS.

I'm torn cause I love my arcane dps....

Thanks - am prinitng your comments so ...I will let you know!

as always ty !

Vyn
#10 Jan 18 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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the vast majority of the time damage > dps. You can be at 30k DPS but if you can only do that 30k dps for 1/5th of the fight the person who is doing 12k will do more damage than you.
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#11 Jan 20 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I've decided I cant be a fire mage...I just don't get what I'm doing...

My dps is lower than arc - no surpirse !! but I'm not sure my damage is better.

so frustrating......!!!!

Anyway - are there any good addons that mite help me ??

You guys are great - thanks for taking time to respond to my random posts...

Vyn
#12 Jan 20 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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combustion helper + scorchio/mage nuggets + power auras should help you out a lot no matter what spec you are.

To get some help with fire you will just need to practice your rotations to learn that you can't just spam fireballs but to use scorches between them to keep your mana up. It will be quite like Arcane in that you have a burn and a conserve phase, where if you are in bloodlust you don't want to be going into your burn rotation as your DPM will decrease as you will just be burning through your mana faster Just remember to use your cooldowns properly.
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#13 Jan 20 2011 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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The fundamentals are incredibly important. Mind your Living Bomb uptimes, time your combustions well, try to make sure you have trinkets available for <35% health.
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#14 Jan 24 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok- question from the worst fire mage in my realm...lol

How do you use living bomb correctly?

Can you use on more than one tagret...i mean it seems to be single target ??

I keep going back to arcane because fire frustartes me so much !!

Grrrr......

Help !
#15 Jan 24 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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It can be on up to 3 targets at once, when you try to put it on a 4th it will get rid of the LB on the first target and put a new one on the 4th.. You want to make sure to not refresh the LB on your target until after it explodes, MageNuggets/Scorchio/Power Auras can help you with that timing.

Assuming you aren't worried about breaking CC with it it should be up on your target at all times, making sure to put it right back on after it explodes, if you have a group of mobs for AoEing do the same, keep 3 copies of LB up at a time and then flamestrike/etc for more damage, plus ignites + instant Pyros + Impact procs = super dps.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 10:18am by Anobix
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#16 Jan 24 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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You want to focus on keeping it on 3 targets, but also your ignite procs will spread it.

Your real goal is to spread multiple DoTs with Ignite. If possible you want to get a full stack of DoT that have crit (For me this would put my DoT Stack at about 10k) Then pop combustion.

That will get Combustion ticking -

Then hit a flamestrike if you DO NOT have Ignite up.


*IF you have Ignite - Just pop that.

The flamestrike will likely get you an ignite proc....

*At this point try to spready combustion via Ignite.


I recommend Combustion Helper Addon- Simple - easy.


** A perfect example of a good time to Combustion/Ignite fish is the two Faceless Mobs prior to the 3rd pull in H.Throne of Tides. The two mobs have a few million HP. You want to quikcly stack a full set of DoTs on one, fish for an ignite, Clip a Combustion - then Ignite. Both mobs will be clicking at 10k

When you continue to DPS - you'll see a major spike.
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#17 Jan 25 2011 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
I think I may have to try out fire again. I haven't been fire since I levelled way back when. Perhaps a dual spec is in order.
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#18 Jan 25 2011 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
Random Double Post - FTL

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 10:07am by xNocturnalSunx
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#19 Jan 25 2011 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks guys !

Still working it out- I think the addons will help me - ( I hope ).

I am being told by my guild that I need to get my damage higher...

I'll let you know how I do !

My gear is getting better so that alwasy help...almost have my Firemage robes :)



Vyn

#20 Jan 26 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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OK fellow mages.....new fire questions..


I'm thinking that I need more crit and mastery - meaning i have to regem and stuff.

So what would be proper amount of haste and hit ?

I'm torn because it will change my arcane build...but I want to try and jump in.

I was witha fire mage last night - I did better pds ( arc ) but he did better damage :(.


So I am thinking of diving in and makin changes .....

Do you agree respect to crit and mastery ? over hit an haste?

Vyn
#21 Jan 26 2011 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll put my notes - then a direct quote from Elitist Jerks.

Stack Intellect. Then Stack hit. INT is More important than Hit. Then Spell power. Then Crit. Haste and Mastery aren't bad stats, but they aren't good either.

Never sacrafice a good stat for a lesser one on a one to one basis. (Swapping 10 INT for 10 Hit is bad. Swapping 10 INT for 100 Hit .... Is likely good.)

Do not gem/gear/enchant/ etc.... for Haste of Mastery.


Direct from EJ
To correctly gear a Fire Mage, we first need to understand the relative values of each Combat Rating:

Rank Name Relative Value Notes

1 Intellect 3.7216 *Intellect is King - the strongest stat by far. Much stronger than even Hit. Intellect is a Primary Stat. It increases our Spell Power, Critical Strike Chance and our Mana. Due to the strength of Intellect: we aggressively Gem, Enchant and Gear towards maximising the amount present on our gear.

2 Hit 3.0677 *Hit is a very strong stat, but still weaker than intellect. You'll need 17% hit (1742 rating) for Tier 11 boss mobs. Read the section below for a strategy on how to cap Hit rating. The value of Hit falls off once you're Hit capped.
3 Spell Power 2.5369 *Spell Power can still be found on weapons and trinket effects. Spell Power is a very strong stat.
4 Crit 1.9366 *Crit is a strong Fire stat. Why? Because the Fire spec is built around Crit: Hot Streak relies on crits. Flashburn Mastery is more effective when spells Crit (They leave an Ignite, which Flashburn can amplify). Crit rates boost the amount of mana restored by Master of Elements, which in turn allows for more Fireballs to be cast. Combustion is a more powerful (and more easily used) cooldown when spells crit often. Crit is the heart of the Fire spec.
5 Mastery 1.3588 *Mastery and Haste are both weaker than Crit. They are both of similar value*. These are the weakest stats you can reforge into Hit.
6 Haste 1.2961 Mastery and Haste are both weaker than Crit. They are both of similar value*. These are the weakest stats you can reforge into Hit.
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#22 Jan 26 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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There's one caveat there. You actually DO want to stack haste up to a certain point.
Quote:

The "Soft Haste Cap" refers to the value required to reach +12.5% Haste raid buffed. At this level of Haste: Living Bomb, Pyroblast (Dot) and Frostfire Bolt (Dot via Glyph) all gain one additional tick over their duration. Reaching the soft-haste cap breakpoint will result in a DPS increase. The value of haste before and after the breakpoint is very similar. It's just the breakpoint itself that gives an extra value. The actual Haste rating required is:

* The soft cap with 3/3 Netherwind Presence and 5% Raid Haste Buff is: 516 Haste from gear. Click here to see how this value is derived.

* The soft cap with 2/3 Netherwind Presence and 5% Raid Haste Buff is: 646 Haste from gear. Click here to see how this value is derived

* The Soft Haste cap for Goblins with 3/3 Netherwind Presence and 5% Raid Haste Buff is: 384 Haste from gear

. The value required for a second additional tick is 3476 haste, which is well out of reach for current gear levels. For more details on this topic: see the "Haste and DOT's" section.

Before that point, getting enough haste to reach that point is more important than everything but maybe Int.
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#23 Feb 23 2011 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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Borsuk wrote:
Your real goal is to spread multiple DoTs with Ignite.


Do you mean Impact? Am I missing something where Ignite can spread DoTs?
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#24 Feb 23 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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FuriousJorge wrote:
Borsuk wrote:
Your real goal is to spread multiple DoTs with Ignite.


Do you mean Impact? Am I missing something where Ignite can spread DoTs?



Yep - used wrong effect starting with the letter 'I'....

My mistake
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