Ok so I believe I now have all the 346 Tanking belts and have taken a good long look at the Justice Points belt as well. For all I can see, none of the currently available 346 Tanking belts can match the Belt of the Ferocious Wolf which is a faction Reward bought after reaching exalted status with the Guardians of Mount Hyjal.
So, first off, I know this is intended to be a DPS belt. That said, Ret's Primary Stats across the board in Cata are identical with Prot. The only off thing here then is obviously the Secondary Stats. The Mastery here, however, is rated our best Mitigation stat to stack until we are no-white defense capped (according to EJ). So that means that the Primary stats are far and above, and the secondary stat has one of our best options as well as the ability to reforge Crit into Parry/Dodge/Hit/Exp depending on our needs.
So basically - the question stands as has anyone figured out a better option for Heroics/JP level belts for Tanking?
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I just picked that belt up last night for my Ret set. But you may have a point there. Reforge off some of that crit for Expertise or another mitigation. I think I may do the same as you. It does not say its unique like a ring. I'll gem one for prot and one for ret. :)
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~ Matsuo Basho
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I did the exact same thing a few days ago. I finished out getting exalted with the Guardians of Hyjal since I was close to revered when I finished the zone and wanted the cloak. Then I saw the belt and thought it was a way better option for tanking then any drops I have seen. I reforged it with dodge and put a belt buckle on it and I'm sure it will last me a while.
It also gave me the "I" level I needed to enter random heroics, but I am going to wait on that. Most of my gear is 333 plus, but some of it is still 316 and my gloves are 289. I still have not found a decent upgrade for my hands. Anyway from all I am hearing about heroics and how tough they are I would prefer to be a little over geared then under.
Happy new year!
It also gave me the "I" level I needed to enter random heroics, but I am going to wait on that. Most of my gear is 333 plus, but some of it is still 316 and my gloves are 289. I still have not found a decent upgrade for my hands. Anyway from all I am hearing about heroics and how tough they are I would prefer to be a little over geared then under.
Happy new year!
Found another option: Hardened Elementium Girdle
Now it's still not completely clear-cut here. First off, the belt will cost a pretty penny if you're not a Blacksmith. Also, you can still manage 60 more Stamina with the Ferocious Wolf due to the extra socket. Again I think it may just depend on your current needs.
Now it's still not completely clear-cut here. First off, the belt will cost a pretty penny if you're not a Blacksmith. Also, you can still manage 60 more Stamina with the Ferocious Wolf due to the extra socket. Again I think it may just depend on your current needs.
I will be picking up the Hyjal rep one for my tank set but since I already have the one from heroic Tol Vir it's last on my 'to rep grind' wish list.
I won't be getting the crafted one made until the price of mats comes down. Petrus and Vex over and Maintankadin say its the best pre raid belt you can get (sidegrade to the Jumbotron Powerbelt from Blackwing Descent).
Edited, Jan 5th 2011 5:52am by arthoriuss
I won't be getting the crafted one made until the price of mats comes down. Petrus and Vex over and Maintankadin say its the best pre raid belt you can get (sidegrade to the Jumbotron Powerbelt from Blackwing Descent).
Edited, Jan 5th 2011 5:52am by arthoriuss
Hardened Elementium Girdle is almost certainly better than Ferocious Wolf for a tank. If you optimize Ferocious Wolf you reforge about half of the crit for either parry or dodge, whichever is lower. That still leaves you with 60-70 crit rating that is barely above useless for a tank.
The belts have the same base stats, same total amount of secondary stats, and same color socket. The only difference is that Hardened Elementium is already optimized for tanking and has a better socket bonus for tanking.
The belts have the same base stats, same total amount of secondary stats, and same color socket. The only difference is that Hardened Elementium is already optimized for tanking and has a better socket bonus for tanking.
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
When the post was made, there was no socket on the belt. That might add to some confusion over it's worth before/after stat weight.
It is certainly a solid choice for tanking Paladins now.
It is certainly a solid choice for tanking Paladins now.
Well that would explain my confusion. Yeah Ferocious Wolf is a solid choice, but the crafted one is definitely better.
I just ready that Signet of the Elder Council with the haste reforged into dodge is one of the 2 best pre-raid rings for pally tanks. I under the agi = dodge and the mastery is awesome, but wouldn't we be better served with a lower iLevel blue designed for pally tanks?
Or does the extra mastery and stam from 13 extra iLevels outweigh that?
I just ready that Signet of the Elder Council with the haste reforged into dodge is one of the 2 best pre-raid rings for pally tanks. I under the agi = dodge and the mastery is awesome, but wouldn't we be better served with a lower iLevel blue designed for pally tanks?
Or does the extra mastery and stam from 13 extra iLevels outweigh that?
Haste is awful, AGI does net a bit of survivability, but STR does as well and has the added benefit of additional threat though harder hits and increased Spell Power.
Interestingly enough, the ring is not even part of the equation on AskMrRobot. I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if it was high up on the list if it was, but it's not. That being said, I still think Felsen's Ring of Resolve, Ring of Three Lights, and Elementium Moebius Band all net better results.
In that way, I think this ring is one of the best pre-Heroic rings, but not actually once you have the full array of options between 346 tanking rings. Also, Survivability is not necessarily the only concern of a paladin tank.
Interestingly enough, the ring is not even part of the equation on AskMrRobot. I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if it was high up on the list if it was, but it's not. That being said, I still think Felsen's Ring of Resolve, Ring of Three Lights, and Elementium Moebius Band all net better results.
In that way, I think this ring is one of the best pre-Heroic rings, but not actually once you have the full array of options between 346 tanking rings. Also, Survivability is not necessarily the only concern of a paladin tank.
tzsjynx wrote:
Also, Survivability is not necessarily the only concern of a paladin tank.
I found at the moment that it really is. Threat is a non issue after the first 5-10 seconds, so if your DPS isn't completely retarded, you shouldn't need any hit/expertise on gear. Of course, that's just my opinion :) But, it is based off of both Heroics and raids, PuG and guild runs. So from that perspective, the Signet of the Elder Council really isn't all that great in comparison to proper tanking rings. I'm curious Bigdaddy, where did you read that it was so good for Paly tanks?
Hmm, it depends on the fight.
I'm finding for boss fights that Paladin tanks are the weakest threat generators. Sure they have snap agro, and generally it's not a problem for me, but the fact is on fights like Omnotron I have considerable difficulty keeping agro the first time I fight each new bot, especially if/when a power generator is up.
My DPS reaches as high as 10kDPS on these fights, but with the likes of Arcane Mages, Enhancement Shammies, and Ret DPS pounding away at these targets, their threat output reaches ridiculous levels especially on the front end. Fights which require tank swaps or taunt-backs quickly become easy-mode for threat, as each tank swap nets at least 10% additional threat.
In any case, I do not mean to say that mitigation and survivability are not important, only that on my Paladin it has become quickly apparent that I am not found wanting in this area. I would not, for instance, change my Soul Blade for a Fang of Twilight despite the fact that many survivability algorithms put this sword ahead of the Soul Blade.
I'm finding for boss fights that Paladin tanks are the weakest threat generators. Sure they have snap agro, and generally it's not a problem for me, but the fact is on fights like Omnotron I have considerable difficulty keeping agro the first time I fight each new bot, especially if/when a power generator is up.
My DPS reaches as high as 10kDPS on these fights, but with the likes of Arcane Mages, Enhancement Shammies, and Ret DPS pounding away at these targets, their threat output reaches ridiculous levels especially on the front end. Fights which require tank swaps or taunt-backs quickly become easy-mode for threat, as each tank swap nets at least 10% additional threat.
In any case, I do not mean to say that mitigation and survivability are not important, only that on my Paladin it has become quickly apparent that I am not found wanting in this area. I would not, for instance, change my Soul Blade for a Fang of Twilight despite the fact that many survivability algorithms put this sword ahead of the Soul Blade.
You're right, there is really know one answer fits all. I'd say I have it pretty good since the only fight I ever have threat issues with is Atramedes, and that's because my DPS NEVER allow me sufficient time to get set up :P Well, occasionally on Omnitron, but having 2 taunts makes even that a non issue for me. Your mileage obviously varies a little bit from mine, and I'm sure others will differ from both of us :)
Maulgak wrote:
tzsjynx wrote:
Also, Survivability is not necessarily the only concern of a paladin tank.
I found at the moment that it really is. Threat is a non issue after the first 5-10 seconds, so if your DPS isn't completely retarded, you shouldn't need any hit/expertise on gear. Of course, that's just my opinion :) But, it is based off of both Heroics and raids, PuG and guild runs. So from that perspective, the Signet of the Elder Council really isn't all that great in comparison to proper tanking rings. I'm curious Bigdaddy, where did you read that it was so good for Paly tanks?
I saw something about it on the U.S. forums and that got me curious. I asked the pally main tank for my guild's 10 man raids and he said he was working on the last bit of rep so he could get the ring. I also saw something about it mentioned on either maintankadin or tankspot, I don't remember which website because I clicked a link from somewhere.
When I looked at it further, the Agi will give a decent amount of dodge and it does have more Mastery than any other option at that gearing level. I don't think it will be better than iLevel 359 rings designed for tanking, but it certainly seems to compete with 346 tanking rings.
tzsjynx wrote:
Hmm, it depends on the fight.
I'm finding for boss fights that Paladin tanks are the weakest threat generators. Sure they have snap agro, and generally it's not a problem for me, but the fact is on fights like Omnotron I have considerable difficulty keeping agro the first time I fight each new bot, especially if/when a power generator is up.
My DPS reaches as high as 10kDPS on these fights, but with the likes of Arcane Mages, Enhancement Shammies, and Ret DPS pounding away at these targets, their threat output reaches ridiculous levels especially on the front end. Fights which require tank swaps or taunt-backs quickly become easy-mode for threat, as each tank swap nets at least 10% additional threat.
In any case, I do not mean to say that mitigation and survivability are not important, only that on my Paladin it has become quickly apparent that I am not found wanting in this area. I would not, for instance, change my Soul Blade for a Fang of Twilight despite the fact that many survivability algorithms put this sword ahead of the Soul Blade.
I'm finding for boss fights that Paladin tanks are the weakest threat generators. Sure they have snap agro, and generally it's not a problem for me, but the fact is on fights like Omnotron I have considerable difficulty keeping agro the first time I fight each new bot, especially if/when a power generator is up.
My DPS reaches as high as 10kDPS on these fights, but with the likes of Arcane Mages, Enhancement Shammies, and Ret DPS pounding away at these targets, their threat output reaches ridiculous levels especially on the front end. Fights which require tank swaps or taunt-backs quickly become easy-mode for threat, as each tank swap nets at least 10% additional threat.
In any case, I do not mean to say that mitigation and survivability are not important, only that on my Paladin it has become quickly apparent that I am not found wanting in this area. I would not, for instance, change my Soul Blade for a Fang of Twilight despite the fact that many survivability algorithms put this sword ahead of the Soul Blade.
I haven't had any problem with threat so far. This is how I start the fight:
Wings > Exo > AS > Divine Plea > Judge > SotR
I will qualify this by saying I am only doing 5-mans, not raids.
Then I go into my rotation. Usually by this point I'll easily have a 100k threat lead and I haven't found a DPS yet that can close that gap, although I haven't run any dungeons with a ret pally yet.
Edited, Apr 25th 2011 9:47am by Bigdaddyjug
tzsjynx wrote:
I'm finding for boss fights that Paladin tanks are the weakest threat generators. Sure they have snap agro, and generally it's not a problem for me, but the fact is on fights like Omnotron I have considerable difficulty keeping agro the first time I fight each new bot, especially if/when a power generator is up.
I'm not sure Omnotron really counts because of the boss mechanic. Especially before our first kill, we had real problems with the ranged DPS - with clear visibility and a central location - being able to find and open up on the new target before the swapping tank had even gotten into position to grab aggro on it much less establish a safe aggro lead.
Recently I've started slowing way down on the target switch - making sure via target-of-focus or target-of-target that the new tank has the right boss targeted, then giving at least a quick standing three count (depending on which tank it is, we have a wide spread of skill/gear levels). My personal DPS goes down by about a quarter, but it's a survival fight, not a burn fight, and survival fights are about control. Not having a tank with relatively little raid experience chasing bosses halfway across the room makes it go much smoother.
Yes, positioning helps, and staying mentally ahead of the switches rather than playing catch-up is part of the learning curve. But for my guild, the biggest improvement came when the rDPS remembered how it was in the old days and kept their wands in their robes or guns in their pants.
Let me put it this way.
When I'm Ret, my front-end DPS reaches in excess of 30k DPS, easily, on raids, for about 20-30 seconds. Yes, you heard that right. When I'm on Arcane, that number can reach in the mid 20s and stay there for a good minute.
On the other end of the spectrum, my Paladin tank starts his fight out generally around 5-6kDPS and it grows as Vengeance gains power and especially after the 20% mark. Something that is not the least bit helpful. Omnotron really doesn't have that unique of a mechanic, it is simply starting fresh agro 4 times. Each time the reset happens, I have considerable trouble maintaining threat, especially if you are tanking the second Bot because you don't even have Vengeance up yet.
Basically, on my Ret Pally or Arcane Mage, if I'm not careful or I have a sick urge to mess with tanks, Threat is mine whether you like it or not with the exception of Warrior tanks. If you're NOT having issues on front end threat as a Paladin in raiding, you're most likely playing with considerate and skilled players AND/OR not realizing that you're being ToT'd and Misdirected. Paladin's get comfortable after about a minute and a half. Before that mark, it's a strain to keep threat against any sort of powerhouse DPS.
When I'm Ret, my front-end DPS reaches in excess of 30k DPS, easily, on raids, for about 20-30 seconds. Yes, you heard that right. When I'm on Arcane, that number can reach in the mid 20s and stay there for a good minute.
On the other end of the spectrum, my Paladin tank starts his fight out generally around 5-6kDPS and it grows as Vengeance gains power and especially after the 20% mark. Something that is not the least bit helpful. Omnotron really doesn't have that unique of a mechanic, it is simply starting fresh agro 4 times. Each time the reset happens, I have considerable trouble maintaining threat, especially if you are tanking the second Bot because you don't even have Vengeance up yet.
Basically, on my Ret Pally or Arcane Mage, if I'm not careful or I have a sick urge to mess with tanks, Threat is mine whether you like it or not with the exception of Warrior tanks. If you're NOT having issues on front end threat as a Paladin in raiding, you're most likely playing with considerate and skilled players AND/OR not realizing that you're being ToT'd and Misdirected. Paladin's get comfortable after about a minute and a half. Before that mark, it's a strain to keep threat against any sort of powerhouse DPS.
Only thing I can say is that DPS really do need to be active in the threat game as well, not just tanks. I guess I am fortunate that my DPS (usually :P) understand that waiting to go full bore nets them a greater output than starting off with everything they have, pulling aggro, and either needing to waste time with survival or die. Not all DPS are like that, I know, but they really should be. Raiding isn't just getting the boss down as quickly as possible, but a lot of people don't get that unfortunately =/
It's funny you mention TotT and MD. We have a Hunter that raids with us, and the only time he ever MDs is when he's put on add duty for Nef, lol. Until we got to Nef I honestly didn't think he knew what MD was. Said he couldn't be bothered with it because it "cut into his deeps" ... And we have no Rogues that raid with us. Fine with me, I never cared for the sneaky little buggers (no offense to any who may be reading :P).
It's funny you mention TotT and MD. We have a Hunter that raids with us, and the only time he ever MDs is when he's put on add duty for Nef, lol. Until we got to Nef I honestly didn't think he knew what MD was. Said he couldn't be bothered with it because it "cut into his deeps" ... And we have no Rogues that raid with us. Fine with me, I never cared for the sneaky little buggers (no offense to any who may be reading :P).
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31 posts
I knew I'd seen the Signet of the Elder Council mentioned as well, so I had to find it to make sure I hadn't just made it up. It was on Maintankadin, where Digren seems pretty keen on it - it shows up in the top few spots for what he calls level 3 and level 4 tanks:
Link
Quote:
Digren says, "The Bile-O-Tron Nut just isn't very good compared to all the other options with mastery. All the top items are pretty closely spaced; most will use a Signet of the Elder Council and whatever else they can get. Keep in mind the agility contribution to dodge as the reason why agility + mastery/threat rings rank so highly. Other iLvl 359 options (Band of Bees, Blauvelt's, Cloudburst Ring of the Faultline) rank below most iLvl 346 options and thus aren't listed here."
Link
Maulgak wrote:
It's funny you mention TotT and MD. We have a Hunter that raids with us, and the only time he ever MDs is when he's put on add duty for Nef, lol. Until we got to Nef I honestly didn't think he knew what MD was. Said he couldn't be bothered with it because it "cut into his deeps" ...
Since the change to MD so that the transferred threat degrades after 30 seconds, it's no longer a magic bullet (as it were). These days, I load MD up pre-pull, then pre-empively feign the first time I have to delay explosive shot (third time through the "rotation" at my current haste level, IIRC). That takes care of any threat problems for the fight, and I lose one second of DPS time...
Ah, yes. Well the 30 seconds at the beginning of a fight are the most important.
As a Paladin Tank, MD and ToT make my life quite a bit easier.
As a Paladin Tank, MD and ToT make my life quite a bit easier.
That's right, I forgot about the MD change. ty for reminding me :)
Still would be quite nice at the start of a fight, as you mentioned. Particularly Atramedes (lazy guild Huntard :P).
Still would be quite nice at the start of a fight, as you mentioned. Particularly Atramedes (lazy guild Huntard :P).
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