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#27 Dec 15 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Furor really isn't that necessary for Boomkins. If people want to take it, it's not that big of a deal I think, but there are more useful talents. Solar Beam is actually really freaking awesome for PvE, provided you let your tanks know to keep spellcaster mobs in the beam. ;-) 10 (or 15 if you glyph) second AoE silence? Yes please. Mana pools really aren't an issue for us unless we're AoEing a lot, and in those cases I think Innervate talents are more useful.

I'd suggest subbing 2 points in Blessing of the Grove and Solar Beam for Furor. 6% more direct damage for Moonfire and an AoE silence are much more useful than an extra 15% mana, imho. :-) Overall, I think that Boomkins will want to go for 8 points in Resto: Heart of the Wild, Natural Shapeshifter, Master Shapeshifter, and Blessing of the Grove. Balance points are pretty straightforward for the most part, but we have about four talent points to spend for extra goodies. Solar Beam is really useful, but not necessary, same with Fungal Growth I think (this is probably more situational though). Gale Winds is useful for when you do AoE, and Dreamstate is useful if you're having mana issues. Really the only Balance talent that isn't useful at 85 is Owlkin Frenzy, because duh, you shouldn't be getting hit by mobs. Other than that, and the talents I mentioned above, you're going to want to take everything.


When making a generic spec for caster DPS, I will always include mana talents. Once mana is no longer an issue they can go away but it is better to have them for a while and realize they are not needed than to think the spec stinks because it is always OoM.

The one point in Furor was the last one and I didn't want to put it somewhere that would encourage players to AoE more. Especially at level 85 where AoE really isn't the way of the world.

Regardless, I've been doing forum stuff for too long today. I'm going to play a bit then try do the Moonkin section tonight and finish the Resto, Cat and generic feral tomorrow.
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#28 Dec 16 2010 at 4:39 AM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
Stampede in practice also removes the positional requirement for Ravage. I'm not sure if that's WAI or not, but it makes for one **** of an opener. Charge > Ravage (+50% crit) > Mangle > Rake > (if less than 5 CP, Mangle) > FB. Through Deepholm, that killed any solo mob, or at least put one massive dent in their HP.


It doesn't remove the positional requirement, but Charge puts you behind your target. Since Charge dazes instead of stuns, the mob will turn towards you while you're in mid-air, unless you're stealthed, of course. I do recommend at least one point in Stampede once you have spare points, because the 50% reduction in Ravage cost enables you to Ravage, Rake and Mangle without having to wait for energy.

Also, and this is nitpicking, you'd want to use Rake before Mangle. If you do open with Charge and have Stampede, you'll get both Mangle and Rake in the first batch of energy, but Rake takes a couple of seconds before it ticks, which is enough for you to apply Mangle first. We're talking about a couple of seconds, so it's not really that important, but if your Rake is beast like mine, you'll want it to start ticking as fast as possible, even if Mangle hasn't been applied yet. The 30% reduction on the direct damage part of Rake isn't really important.

So, if you have 1-2 points in Stampede and you open up with Ravage, you'll be able to (and should) go Ravage > Rake > Mangle > Maim > Dead. My Rake ticks for 10-15k, depending on procs. With Ravage critting for 15k as well and Mangle doing 4-7k depending on crit, you're looking at 15k Ravage > Rake > 7k Mangle > 10k Rake > Stun. That's 30-35k damage in basically four GCDs.

Anyway, Mangle or Rake first, it really doesn't matter much when leveling. Stuff dies in seconds regardless. Smiley: grin

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 11:41am by Mazra
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#29 Dec 16 2010 at 11:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
AstarintheDruid wrote:
Stampede in practice also removes the positional requirement for Ravage. I'm not sure if that's WAI or not, but it makes for one **** of an opener. Charge > Ravage (+50% crit) > Mangle > Rake > (if less than 5 CP, Mangle) > FB. Through Deepholm, that killed any solo mob, or at least put one massive dent in their HP.


It doesn't remove the positional requirement, but Charge puts you behind your target. Since Charge dazes instead of stuns, the mob will turn towards you while you're in mid-air, unless you're stealthed, of course. I do recommend at least one point in Stampede once you have spare points, because the 50% reduction in Ravage cost enables you to Ravage, Rake and Mangle without having to wait for energy.

Also, and this is nitpicking, you'd want to use Rake before Mangle. If you do open with Charge and have Stampede, you'll get both Mangle and Rake in the first batch of energy, but Rake takes a couple of seconds before it ticks, which is enough for you to apply Mangle first. We're talking about a couple of seconds, so it's not really that important, but if your Rake is beast like mine, you'll want it to start ticking as fast as possible, even if Mangle hasn't been applied yet. The 30% reduction on the direct damage part of Rake isn't really important.

So, if you have 1-2 points in Stampede and you open up with Ravage, you'll be able to (and should) go Ravage > Rake > Mangle > Maim > Dead. My Rake ticks for 10-15k, depending on procs. With Ravage critting for 15k as well and Mangle doing 4-7k depending on crit, you're looking at 15k Ravage > Rake > 7k Mangle > 10k Rake > Stun. That's 30-35k damage in basically four GCDs.

Anyway, Mangle or Rake first, it really doesn't matter much when leveling. Stuff dies in seconds regardless. Smiley: grin

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 11:41am by Mazra

I used 1 pt in Stampede just fine leveling, the mob always turns to face me, I still get Ravage off. Rake is purely for the increased chance for FB to crit and end the fight before I get more than 1 or 2 bleed ticks, anyway. Also, Mangle puts up Infected Wounds, I'd rather get that up first than get my first bleed tick 1 sec sooner.

Looks like Rake got semi-nerfed, too.
Cataclysm Hotfixes - December 15th wrote:
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o Rake will no longer receive twice the benefit from the Feral druid Mastery Razor Claws.
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#30 Dec 16 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Ouch, think Rake just got pwned.

Interesting note about Ravage, though. I'll have to test that later.

Speaking of Druid mechanics and such, how the heck do you guys open up an AOE pull if you have zero rage from the start? Thrash costs so much rage, I often find that I don't have enough to open with it, and Demo Roar isn't enough to hold anything against healing aggro, let alone the random DPS who doesn't wait for the go! command.
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#31 Dec 16 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Absolute zero rage? Powershift for 10 rage, Enrage will get you another 20, you can manually cancel the damage debuff and only lose the little bit of rage that trickles in. If none of that is an option, swipe with a crit or two will hopefully refund rage and buy you a GCD to Thrash. Melee DPS should know better, or quickly learn, not to go ******** AoE with a Bear/Warrior tank with no rage.

One nice thing in Cata is that there was a rather hefty boost to armor and Stam for non-plate wearers, so it's not like old H Slave Pens or H Shattered Halls where a stray melee mob would one-shot the clothies.
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#32 Dec 16 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
Absolute zero rage? Powershift for 10 rage, Enrage will get you another 20, you can manually cancel the damage debuff and only lose the little bit of rage that trickles in. If none of that is an option, swipe with a crit or two will hopefully refund rage and buy you a GCD to Thrash. Melee DPS should know better, or quickly learn, not to go ape-sh*t AoE with a Bear/Warrior tank with no rage.

One nice thing in Cata is that there was a rather hefty boost to armor and Stam for non-plate wearers, so it's not like old H Slave Pens or H Shattered Halls where a stray melee mob would one-shot the clothies.


I usually powershift, pop Enrage and wait a few seconds then pull; the debuff fades by the time stuff starts hitting me.
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#33 Dec 16 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you have time to let Enrage run, yeah. I guess I misread his question and was thinking about when some "gogogo" DPS aggro's the next pull before you're ready.
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#34 Dec 16 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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I actually thought Thrash required 30 rage, not 25. My bad.

On a similar note, how do you deal with AOE aggro in the beginning? I find that Thrash's radius makes CC funny in the bad way.
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#35 Dec 16 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
Pull at range and LOS casters?

Kids these days Smiley: oyvey Smiley: tongue
#36 Dec 16 2010 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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Overlord Norellicus wrote:
Pull at range and LOS casters?

Kids these days Smiley: oyvey Smiley: tongue


Hey, I started from the beginning as well, but here are some scenarios:

No LOS available.
Crappy CC.
ADHD players.

Now mix it all together and you've got the random PUG. Please, join my ****, it's extraordinarily painful down here.

/brainburst

And on a side note, I just had to abandon a Tol'Avir run. We failed the DPS check on Siamat. The freakin' DPS check, man. I did more DPS than the Shadow Priest. The Hunter did 2900 DPS. At level 85. And he won my weapon.

I'm going to break someone's head off.
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#37 Dec 16 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
I know, thus the Smiley: tongue smiley. Truthfully I haven't been above 80 yet on account of waiting until money comes through to do a transfer and faction switch.

I already know it'll be **** in dungeons but I'm going to be That Guy and berate people for being bad and try to make them better. I can get fast queues, how fast can you 4 scrubs get going again without a tank? Smiley: grin

Edit: Here's my basic methodology.

Screenshot

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 11:48pm by Norellicus
#38 Dec 17 2010 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
We've been running guild heroics with all 5 in vent and using standardised marks for each mob

Skull - kill
X - 2nd
square - hunter trap
Star - resto roots or hibernate
Circle - my roots or hibernate

Druids wait to see the trap in the air before casting roots and the tank picks up the 1-2 mobs left. I've set up at root focus macro and have got used to refreshing it as needed (usually with my instant cast nature spell). Trash has become so simple and the healer almost never needs to drink. The more CC the better in the new heroics - and entangling roots is very effective for any melee mob now.

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#39 Dec 17 2010 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
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Friar RareBeast wrote:
We've been running guild heroics with all 5 in vent and using standardised marks for each mob

Skull - kill
X - 2nd
square - hunter trap
Star - resto roots or hibernate
Circle - my roots or hibernate

Druids wait to see the trap in the air before casting roots and the tank picks up the 1-2 mobs left. I've set up at root focus macro and have got used to refreshing it as needed (usually with my instant cast nature spell). Trash has become so simple and the healer almost never needs to drink. The more CC the better in the new heroics - and entangling roots is very effective for any melee mob now.



I've fallen in love with Boomkins that have Solar Beam and know when to use it properly.
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#40 Dec 17 2010 at 7:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you have a Major glyph slot you don't need, I would recommend Glyph of Entangling Roots. Root is more position-dependent than other CC, and this lets you stop the mob NOW, not 1.5 seconds from now. You can get around the 5 sec recast timer with Cyclone.
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#41 Dec 17 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Hmm, that's could be really useful, I could easily replace the Healing Touch glyph. On that note, I wish natures swiftness would do a little more, it's so underwhelming now with healing touch.

I've been using Cyclone a bit for interrupting healers and such, but I really wish it didn't diminish so fast.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 12:36pm by Xsarus
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#42 Dec 17 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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I wish they'd give every class a 1-minute CC. Remove the requirements from Hibernate, for instance.

With CC being so important now, it pains me whenever I join a random consisting of classes that can't effectively CC. Yes, Entangling Roots works on melee mobs, but it doesn't lock them down completely.
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#43 Dec 17 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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The only really universal CCs are Fear (when glyphed) and Freezing Trap, everything else is limited one way or another. We can't lock down humanoids, undead, demons, or giants, but we have a ranged root with no CD that works on all melee and can be used to LoS or out-range casters. I'm happy with it, and it's a far cry better than where we were in BC, with roots only working outside.
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#44 Dec 17 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
The only really universal CCs are Fear (when glyphed) and Freezing Trap, everything else is limited one way or another. We can't lock down humanoids, undead, demons, or giants, but we have a ranged root with no CD that works on all melee and can be used to LoS or out-range casters. I'm happy with it, and it's a far cry better than where we were in BC, with roots only working outside.


True.

Sap works on everyone, though, doesn't it?
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#45 Dec 17 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
AstarintheDruid wrote:
The only really universal CCs are Fear (when glyphed) and Freezing Trap, everything else is limited one way or another. We can't lock down humanoids, undead, demons, or giants, but we have a ranged root with no CD that works on all melee and can be used to LoS or out-range casters. I'm happy with it, and it's a far cry better than where we were in BC, with roots only working outside.


True.

Sap works on everyone, though, doesn't it?


Sap is hard to reapply compared to most other forms of CC and it doesn't work on everyone.
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#46 Dec 17 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sap. Humanoids, Beasts, Demons, and Dragons. Missing Giants, Undead, Elementals. Arguably the most difficult to apply CC, too, now that hunters have trap launcher.
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#47 Dec 17 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
Sap. Humanoids, Beasts, Demons, and Dragons. Missing Giants, Undead, Elementals. Arguably the most difficult to apply CC, too, now that hunters have trap launcher.


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#48 Dec 17 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
DruidSock wrote:


When making a generic spec for caster DPS, I will always include mana talents. Once mana is no longer an issue they can go away but it is better to have them for a while and realize they are not needed than to think the spec stinks because it is always OoM.

The one point in Furor was the last one and I didn't want to put it somewhere that would encourage players to AoE more. Especially at level 85 where AoE really isn't the way of the world.

Regardless, I've been doing forum stuff for too long today. I'm going to play a bit then try do the Moonkin section tonight and finish the Resto, Cat and generic feral tomorrow.


It's true that we aren't AoEing as much, but there are still some situations where it is useful. Extra mana can definitely be a good thing, and it's probably a good idea for new boomkins to take the talents, but with Euphoria, as long as they are doing the rotation correctly, they aren't going to run out of mana unless a fight is going incredibly long. I never run out of mana unless I'm AoEing, and that doesn't happen much as there's only specific times when it's useful.
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#49 Dec 17 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
DruidSock wrote:


When making a generic spec for caster DPS, I will always include mana talents. Once mana is no longer an issue they can go away but it is better to have them for a while and realize they are not needed than to think the spec stinks because it is always OoM.

The one point in Furor was the last one and I didn't want to put it somewhere that would encourage players to AoE more. Especially at level 85 where AoE really isn't the way of the world.

Regardless, I've been doing forum stuff for too long today. I'm going to play a bit then try do the Moonkin section tonight and finish the Resto, Cat and generic feral tomorrow.


It's true that we aren't AoEing as much, but there are still some situations where it is useful. Extra mana can definitely be a good thing, and it's probably a good idea for new boomkins to take the talents, but with Euphoria, as long as they are doing the rotation correctly, they aren't going to run out of mana unless a fight is going incredibly long. I never run out of mana unless I'm AoEing, and that doesn't happen much as there's only specific times when it's useful.


I have actually been doing a lot of boomkin research the last few days. Also the spec in the first post has changed since you linked it as I just finished the moonkin section when I saw your post. :P

Turns out Furor is a decent mana talent when you aren't using Innervate personally and is better than Moonglow for mana purposes.

Also there aren't a whole **** of a lot of non-mana options that increase DPS. Gale Winds is the only solid AoE DPS talent you skip as Owlkin Frenzy is highly situational and BotG only helps Lunar Showers DPS in an significant fashion. Fungal Growth is also a highly situational talent as when the snare isn't needed most tanks find it very annoying.

So in theory you could drop MG, Dreamstate and Furor take OF, GW, BotG and FG except 1 point in one of them but with FG and QF being very situational, BotG being weak except for when there is a lot of movement and GW being only for AoE I would say it is better to take the mana talents to make sure you don't go OoM and then decide which ones to whittle away depending on how you end up using Innervate.

As if you are using Innervate personally and have no mana issues you would drop some or all of the points in Furor/Moonglow and free up 6 points to put in the 4 potential DPS / utility talents. With the option to start adding them back into mana talents.

Or if you always throw Innervate out then you should drop Dreamstate immediately as it is doing nothing for you at all, and take those 2 points and put them somewhere, most likely GW. Then if mana still isn't an issue start poaching from Moonglow until either it is an issue or the points are gone. If those are gone and mana doesn't matter still then start pulling from Furor.

Regardless, there will come to be a point in time where the benefit gained from losing your extra mana cushion will be significantly less than having a few mana talents for when you actually need them, either because you died and got rez'd, had to heal for a while, extended use of Remove Corruption or any other weird thing that might happen.

The main reason for the mana talents is not only beginners need mana and the comfort of not worrying about mana but that the other options just aren't that strong or are simply too situational in nature to have in your standard DPS spec.

Either way, I've learned way too much about Moonkin in the last few days and next time I aint doin it. :P
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#50 Dec 17 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Good
Hmm, fair enough. Can I ask what you think of the mushrooms? I went over to the Boomkin thread at EJ a couple days ago and it claims that you should use it on CD, but I have a hard enough time keeping my rotation going properly while trying to learn the new boss mechanics. I can see how an extra 9k damage every 10 seconds can be useful, but it seems to me that it takes too long to place three mushrooms down to be that helpful.
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#51 Dec 17 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
I used 1 pt in Stampede just fine leveling, the mob always turns to face me, I still get Ravage off.


Said I'd test this and I have, plus I found some tidbits on the internet.

If you have Stampede and Feral Charge - Cat someone, your 'Ravage' ability morphs into 'Ravage!' Note the exclamation mark. That's why my macro wasn't working properly as well. Before Cataclysm, 'Ravage' would morph into 'Ravage(Cat Form)' when Stampede was up.

According to sources on the internet, Ravage! is bugged and does not have any positional requirements. This will most likely get fixed in an upcoming patch. Probably the same patch that changes Blood in the Water back to Nom Nom Nom.

No? Well, one can always hope.

Edited, Dec 18th 2010 6:05am by Mazra
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