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Confused on MM, SV or BMFollow

#1 Dec 09 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I have heard on here BM is the way to go for leveling and soloing, but now I am hearing SV is. I don't do much in dungeons, I just quest and found BM really good. Being able to solo group quests is nice with a bear pet.

should my secondary spec be SV or MM?

thanks
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#2 Dec 16 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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You're secondary spec should definetly be dps. Of course you could always go dps as well.




Seriously though, they are all good. Just try them out and pick the two you like best.
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#3 Dec 16 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
Right now it seems that SV is the best raiding/dungeon spec, basically the best spec for highest dps.

For simply questing and what not then yes BM is your best bet. With a tenacity pet like your bear then it can definitely hold it's own. If you are questing above 80 then you better be careful as your pet will get hit for a lot more, but my 84 shale spider has 6.8k ticks from mend pet so it's usually able to stay alive.

So if you would ever like to start raiding or anything then your secondary spec should be SV.
#4 Dec 17 2010 at 3:04 AM Rating: Good
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Hyolith, Hero Among Heroes wrote:
Right now it seems that SV is the best raiding/dungeon spec, basically the best spec for highest dps.
Hmm, well damn. What's the SV rotation? Just spam Explosive on cooldown, keep up Serpent and Black Arrow and cobra's in between?
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#5 Dec 17 2010 at 5:47 AM Rating: Decent
I don't know about SV being the highest spec not now, I've been hitting 6k arcane shots with BM in a mix of Cata greens and blues and 10k Kill commands,and I can see those numbers increasing as my gear improves,and I get the kinks worked out of my shot rotation. The only problem I can see is keeping my pet alive in said dungeons,as it always seem to die at some point when I get to raids,and some heroic Cata dungeons..
#6 Dec 17 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, well damn. What's the SV rotation? Just spam Explosive on cooldown, keep up Serpent and Black Arrow and cobra's in between?


It should be that easy, but I have been doing better as MM on the dummies. My only guess was that my SV skills were a little rusty since it's been so long, but it's really not that hard. I don't know about BM beating out both SV and MM though, in my testing it was behind both.
#7 Dec 17 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
I've tried going SV for some dungeons and I end up going back to BM within a fight or two. SV is just so clunky, you get off serpent sting and Explosive shot and your out of focus practically. It's annoying trying to get BA up with it being so much focus and **** damage, but I also hate wasting a my time trying to trap, it almost ends up not being worth trying to throw out an immo trap.

I've really gotten into a groove with BM and do some decent boss damage on it. I just hit 85 yesterday so I'm working on trying to gear up a bit. I haven't even bothered to spec into MM as....bleh, I don't want to deal with MM right now.
#8 Jan 08 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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SV is BEST DPS by FAR for hunters as of right now. Rotatio I use is as follows: Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, Explosive, then Cobra x 3, then Explosive, and then i can sneak an arcance in. From there, just use Cobra mostly, make sure that when BA is coming close to off of CD then you have enough focus to cast it right away, as well as always having enough focus for Explosive when CD is up. When Lock n Load procs, first shoot Explosive shot, then IF FOCUS > 45 use an Arcane shot, and then another Explosive. However, IF your focus is LOW then first shot after LnL proc should still be Explosive, but then use a cobra next, then use explosive again, then dump remaining focus into arcane shots, and back to cobra to regen focus.

I have done lots of testing in all three, @ lvl 85 from an average ilevel of 320 all the way to 346 and every time I go, SV outshines the other two specs GREATLY.

Now, before people start saying "maybe you are just playing MM and BM wrong/poorly" know that I read up constantly on forums @ www.elitistjerks.com and have extensive knowledge of how to play ALL THREE hunter specs. Hunter was my first toon 4 years ago soo i have plenty of experience :)

That all being said, when 4.0.6 goes live, SV hunters are getting a 5% agi nerf, which should drop their OP DPS a touch, and BM Kill Command ability is getting a buff, as well as Chimera Shot getting a buff to, so the trees may even out a bit. But as for now, SV is far better than the other two in terms of pure dps.

Best of luck fellow hunters!!
#9 Jan 09 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
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demegod wrote:
Rotatio I use is as follows: Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, Explosive, then Cobra x 3, then Explosive
No.
Explosive > black arrow > serpent > Cobra x2 > Explosive to start with, you end up delaying your second explosive (and thus all following explosives) by 0.5 seconds but what you do is delaying the first explosive by 2 seconds.

Quote:
When Lock n Load procs, first shoot Explosive shot, then IF FOCUS > 45 use an Arcane shot, and then another Explosive. However, IF your focus is LOW then first shot after LnL proc should still be Explosive, but then use a cobra next, then use explosive again, then dump remaining focus into arcane shots, and back to cobra to regen focus.
Again, no.
Lock and load procs should be explosive > cobra > explosive > arcane > explosive. Substitute either the cobra or arcane by black arrow if it's off cooldown.
When you're shooting explosive > arcane during lock and load you're wasting a lock and load shot on arcane and arcane doesn't even do half the damage explosive does.

Edit: Also please make sure you understand what people are saying on EJ before you spread info.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 1:30pm by Aethien
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#10 Jan 10 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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To OP, if you are essentially soloing and not worrying about raiding, go with what works for you. All specs are good for that. If you are looking to raid, as it stands right now, SV is the highest in DPS. I did a lot of research in all specs and played with rotations and Im consistently hitting 10-12k on average in raids, after following this video guide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dRdphLmTFc
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#11 Jan 10 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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That video is awful.
1: Frost trap on boss which, surprise surprise, doesn't work at 1:35 in the video is something that has never, ever worked on bosses (same for point of no escape) Why it does work for him on the dummy the second time I don't know, it shouldn't be working. His dropping of traps is pretty much pointless anyway as you're wasting global cooldowns while Black Arrow is already taking care of Lock and Load procs. (and lock and load has a cooldown)
2: He has his spec wrong in all different sorts of ways. Just compare his spec to the cookie cutter spec (and read the math I did in the FAQ on Careful Aim) He isn't going off of math but off of "I think" and "I feel".
3: He handles Lock and Load wrong, read my previous post for that.

Basically what he does is guesswork.


Just read my previous post and remember Explosive shot > 3x cobra or 2x cobra, Black arrow, Arcane > explosive and repeat ad nauseum.
Assuming you have enough haste to get cobra shot down to 1.66 second cast time (which takes very little haste, so you do)
If you stick to that, you'll have sufficient focus and max dps.

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#12 Jan 10 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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You do your way, I'll do mine. I can say though that my DPS is consistently top on a 25 man raid in cata, and I have absolutely no issues in keeping it consistent. Also, you can utilize Freezing trap instead of frost to proc L&L and it's a lot more efficient and goes off much more often than Ice trap. And yes, it does go off on bosses if you know how to shoot, 90% of the time, making it absolutely worthwhile in adding to your rotation if you're worth your salt.

After a lot of research, trial and error, I have personally found that the best rotation to utilize maximum DPS is SS-> BA -> ES -> traplauncher with Freezing Trap -> CS. Proc for ES should go off by then so hit it twice for free, then back to CS until you hit ES again. Repeat CS x2, ES, getting off trap launcher with Freezing trap when cool down, finish off with kill shot nets you an easy 10K + DPS per fight.

Dont worry about arcane shot, dont worry about steady shot. They are a waste of time and focus. CS= Steady shot but it also refreshes SS so you only have to cast that at the beginning of each fight unless you worry about adds and SS wears off while you are doing other things.
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#13 Jan 10 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry but dps is pure math and nothing else, there is no your way or my way.
Freezing and frost trap do not work on bosses as they are CC and bosses are immune to CC, they do work on adds (not all, depends on the mechanism of the boss/add).
If, for some reason, it is working then it is most likely due to a bug and it warrants further testing.

Elitist Jerks is the place to get the best info for dps as all the theorycrafters gather there.
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#14 Jan 10 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, but Freezing trap does work to proc ES on boses. It may not freeze them but it makes the L&L proc go off and thats what counts in regards to DPS. I've done it countless times in groups and raids so Im not talking out of my **** here. So yeah, you do it your way and be happy with what you are doing. I'll do it my way and offer what I know works to create delicious DPS to those who ask. We can banter back and forth to your hearts content if thats what gets you off, but it wont change the fact that there isnt one way only to maximize DPS on raids.Smiley: wink
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#15 Jan 10 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is one way to maximize dps, period. What that way is can be discussed but it's simple fact that there is one way. Dps is math and the only difference is how good or bad you are at executing the optimal rotation/priority.
I know I come across like an **** but the title and sig are there for a good reason. I am almost always right when it comes to hunter stuff and I never sugarcoat what I want to say.

If you are certain about freezing/frost trap proccing Lock and Load on bosses then by all means prove it, it could be true and if it is I'm interested in it as it could increase my dps. For now I'm going to be skeptical and assume that you're really just seeing Black Arrow proc Lock and Load and mistaking that for your trap proccing Lock and Load because it wouldn't make sense for a trap that fizzles to proc Lock and Load (as the boss not getting frozen means you got an "immune" message which really just makes the trap disappear.)
Another thing is that there's no mention of it on ElitistJerks and although it could be that nobody there has tried it nor stumbled upon it they are an inquisitive bunch who have been the first to figure out pretty much everything for years now.
The frost trap working in the video could be explained by the hunter in that video testing his dps on a level 85 (or lower level) dummy instead of the boss dummy, I don't know the placement of those dummies out of the top of my head.
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#16 Jan 10 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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While it is true that Frost Trap is "supposed" to proc LnL on bosses, it doesn't always work, and even when it does it's still better to use Black Arrow as your LnL provider. During beta it was better to use Trap Launcher+frost trap, but they buffed Black Arrow since then, making it the better choice for maximizing your DPS. With Trap Launcher costing two clicks(Launcher+Trap)and setting off your GCD, and as stated before, the proc's not guaranteed, you're wasting DPS time, instead of using that time actually dps'ing. Like Aethien said, use EJ, or Warcraft Hunter's Union and EJ, the hunters on there are constantly working on increasing their dps...meaning you can benefit from their work. While it's good to always try new things as a way to see if you can increase dps, it's not good to keep doing things that have proven to be lackluster.

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#17 Jan 10 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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There is one way to maximize dps, period. What that way is can be discussed but it's simple fact that there is one way.


Your boys (and gamer femmes) over at Elitist jerks would disagree with your sentiments that there is only one way judging by the 11 page thread of discussion on this very topic Smiley: laugh And FTR I'm VERY familiar with that forum tyvm Smiley: wink

Quote:
I know I come across like an @#%^ but the title and sig are there for a good reason. I am almost always right when it comes to hunter stuff and I never sugarcoat what I want to say.

I dont care how you come across, its no skin off my back. I came in here to help someone out and if you want to look like an elitist **** while you swing your epeen over semantics, be my guest Smiley: smile But you're still wrong. You may be "almost always right" but its the almost here that's the key. My DPS in heroic instances and in Cata raids is consistent and top using the rotation I provided above. I've spent hours researching my **** off and refining it because the guild I have been with for years over multiple games, is a guild that gets things done, and I need to be able to play my class as best as I can. I am doing that, and offered my suggestions. Take it as you will. Im not forcing you to use it. Im only providing information that may be valuable to others looking for information.

Quote:
If you are certain about freezing/frost trap proccing Lock and Load on bosses then by all means prove it, it could be true and if it is I'm interested in it as it could increase my dps.

Smiley: lol I dont need to prove it to you. If you are interested, get off your **** get into a raid and try it yourself. All I can say is, Im looking at my recount from last nights raid. I have 12.4k DPS on one fight and 11.9k DPS on another, using the rotation above. And thats pretty normal for my numbers.


And with that Im off to game. Have a good one, and to OP, best of luck to you. Do what you enjoy and love the game. That, above all, is what really matters most Smiley: cool

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#18 Jan 10 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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I stand corrected on that part, is/was there actually a blue post saying that frost trap is supposed to proc Lock and load as I was still going by what I know from Wrath.

Lady DSD wrote:
Quote:
There is one way to maximize dps, period. What that way is can be discussed but it's simple fact that there is one way.
Your boys (and gamer femmes) over at Elitist jerks would disagree with your sentiments that there is only one way judging by the 11 page thread of discussion on this very topic Smiley: laugh And FTR I'm VERY familiar with that forum tyvm Smiley: wink
Ask anyone on EJ and they'll tell you that there is one single best way. They might not know exactly what that way is but there sure as **** is only one optimal way, 11 pages of discussion on how to get optimal dps doesn't really prove your point at all.

Also, not to burst your bubble but 12k dps is mediocre at best.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 1:15am by Aethien
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#19 Jan 10 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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I can't find a blue post on it, but I do know it was a change that was made, I'm assuming to make trap launcher/LnL a viable method, but once they upped the damage on Black Arrow, the extra LnL procs from traps came out as a dps loss compared to just Black Arrow. This is due to the focus spent, GCD, and time spent to actually use the Launcher, compared to just dpsing and using Black Arrow. Here's a link to something I pulled up while searching for the blue post, gives a decent rundown of how to SV Hunter in Cata...currently anyway.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/27/scattered-shots-survival-hunter-101/

OP and LadyDSD, please read.
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#20 Jan 10 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm, yeah I certainly missed that.
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#21 Jan 11 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
Lady DSD wrote:
To OP, if you are essentially soloing and not worrying about raiding, go with what works for you. All specs are good for that. If you are looking to raid, as it stands right now, SV is the highest in DPS. I did a lot of research in all specs and played with rotations and Im consistently hitting 10-12k on average in raids, after following this video guide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dRdphLmTFc


Wow, just wow, I know I'm a little late to this, but I couldn't even finish that video. That dude is god awful. You're saying you followed this guys advice? It's so effing terrible.

"I put 2 in improved kill command just to get down to the next tier." Absolutely horrible.

Aethian wrote:
Also, not to burst your bubble but 12k dps is mediocre at best.


Agreed, I can do a lot more than 12k and I have one 359, and no heroic items.

Also as Aeth said there is only one way to achieve the best possible dps. If you disagree then you need to go back to school. Math doesn't change, if you solve for x in 2 + x = 4, there is only one possible answer for x to be, that is 2, there is no other way around it.

I don't really know what else to say just that that dude is awful, sheer terribad, your taking advice from a guy that was doing 6k in beta when everyone else was doing 12-15k. I could point out so many more terrible things he does during that video but I have better ways to waste my time.
#22 Jan 11 2011 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Duecalion wrote:
I can't find a blue post on it, but I do know it was a change that was made, I'm assuming to make trap launcher/LnL a viable method, but once they upped the damage on Black Arrow, the extra LnL procs from traps came out as a dps loss compared to just Black Arrow. This is due to the focus spent, GCD, and time spent to actually use the Launcher, compared to just dpsing and using Black Arrow. Here's a link to something I pulled up while searching for the blue post, gives a decent rundown of how to SV Hunter in Cata...currently anyway.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/27/scattered-shots-survival-hunter-101/

OP and LadyDSD, please read.

rate up for you and that was a good read. I took the info last night and test drove it on dummies for awhile to get an idea of the difference with what he is suggesting, and using TL. I did notice a slight uptic on DPS going this way for longer fights. However, I noticed ES procced a lot less and noticed a higher DPS on shorter fights.

I can totally see how one would lose DPS on average going TL if you are taking time away to click TL and set loc instead of just pure BA.


And to the others, I am totally cool with bantering back and forth about ideas and such, but if you're going to start actually rating down for differing viewpoints or using antagonistic and insulting verbiage to get your point across, you have already lost: your platform, respect, and a leg to stand on. As far as Im concerned, Im all about bickering back and forth and offering ideas to help each other out in this game. But the attitude shown in this thread alone heavily offers a scene of people who have their own self confidence issues and can only feel good about themsekles so long as they tear others down on a inconsequential gaming board. Must make you feel good, "men" Smiley: wink. Nice to see you at least have one bright spot in your life where you can pretend to be alpha.

Instead of showing numbers as I have, I see nothing you have offered MATH wise to support your claims. In other words, put up or shut up.
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#23 Jan 11 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Oooh I touched a nerve, did I? Classic! Smiley: lol Thanks for the chuckle, boys. I've enjoyed it Smiley: sly

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 11:59am by DSD
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#24 Jan 11 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
Well since wow is currently under maint. I can't get on to do any dummy tests or get any information from a run, otherwise I would.

Though, from the spreadsheet, this is what I should be doing unbuffed, or well self buffed.

Combined: 12410.52 100.00%
Hunter: 10961.35 88.32%
Pet: 1449.16 11.68%

With raid buffs and debuffs:

Combined: 17581.78 100.00%
Hunter: 15473.80 88.01%
Pet: 2107.98 11.99%
#25 Jan 11 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oooh I touched a nerve, did I? Classic! Smiley: lol Thanks for the chuckle, boys. I've enjoyed it Smiley: sly

The only time I rate down people is when they're being willfully obtuse or they're whining about karma.

I hadn't rated you down at all 'til you made this post. Being combative and argumentative on a forum that generally accepts Aethien's opinion because 99% of the time he's right is a sure way to get rated down, similar to how the rogue forum operates with me.

Had you been humble and presented your findings with math, it would have been better received.

Just saying.
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#26 Jan 11 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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This thread has more **** and less math then a druid healing thread.

I'm thoroughly disappointed in all of you.

Smiley: disappointed
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#27 Jan 11 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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I rated you back up earlier because you're wrong but smart enough to discuss stuff with so no point rating down.
That said, your first post is spreading bad information and I can understand ratedowns for that.

I'll compare the video's spec with the Cookie Cutter spec

The first thing where he goes wrong is Point of No Escape: Bosses are not affected by frost or freezing trap so those talent points only work on adds.
Lowering the chance to resist on your traps is more effective for adds (as, as far as I know, traps still use spell hit) and the shorter cooldown on disengage is good because it's the single best ability we have for raids, nothing like moving twice as fast and efficient because you're disengaging to where you need to be.
Next he talks about how he would want 2 points in serpent spread for "real dps", I'd say just read what it does and think about it for 10 seconds and you'll figure out why 2 points in there makes no sense. All the second point adds is one more tick of serpent sting, the damage you get in AoE situations from serpent sting is very little, almost all of it is multishot itself and improved serpent sting. And if that isn't enough you'll either shoot a new multishot within 6 seconds or the mobs are dead.
The next thing he does is going into BM, he picks up 3 points in One With Nature for 30% more attack power from AotH, 30% sounds like a lot but in reality it's only (638*0.3=) 191.4 AP, assuming that 1 AP = 0.7 dps this means that you're getting (191.4*0.7=) 133.98 or 134 dps from 3 talent points or 44.66 dps per point, that's very little when you're doing 14-15k dps.
Then he spends 2 points on an ability he admits he will never use while right next to that is Bestial Discipline which increases the amount of special attacks your pet can do and thus increases your pet's dps. To be honest these two points should have been a really big DO NOT LISTEN TO ME sign.
After that he spends points in Frenzy and Frenzy is good, however he has completely overlooked the 4 points you can spend to increase the number of special attacks your pet does in Marksman.
He does talk about Careful Aim after that, but he is making no sense, wanting it tested (It's just math... and simple math at that) and somehow thinking that you'd completely ignore all other shots when above 80% of mob hp.

Below is the math for Careful Aim:
Assumed:
5 minute fight, 1 minute spent at 80% health or higher.
Cobra shot hits for 5k, crits for 10k.
Hunter has enough haste to get 1.66 second cast time of cobra shot.

In 1 minute, you shoot 14 explosive shots (4 from Lock and Load), 3 black arrows (this assumes that you are using the PvP gloves as you should), 1 serpent sting, 1 hunter's mark which takes 19 seconds.
41 seconds of cobra shots left you wll fire 41 / 1.66 = 24.69... cobra shots.
Out of those 247 cobra shots an additional 60% will crit which means 24 * 0.6 = 14.4 extra crits, each crit adds 5k damage for a total of 14.4 * 5 = 72k additional damage.
72k over 5 minutes is 72000 / 300 = 240 dps or in other words 1 point in Careful Aim gives 75.3 more dps than 1 point in One With Nature and that's assuming you're wearing blues and are not raidbuffed.
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#28 Jan 11 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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and the only reason I made that post was because 5 minutes previous I had said how it was sad that people had to resort TO rating down when diageeing with a stance. And yet I was rated down FOR that.

My karma is untouchable with even a few measly rate downs and I could REALLY care less about it. Rate as you please. I just found it absolutely astounding that here in a thread where people brought alternative information to help an OP out with their questions, were attacked not only verbally but through rate downs for not agreeing with the presumable ringleader of the hunter forums. I totally give Aethien his due that he does know a lot about the Hunter and I admire that he knows his stuff. You have to be aware of the current changes going on in order to have a chance at playing the Hunter class well. That said, having other opinions does not make one ignorant on the Hunter itself. Ive gamed for years and the Hunter has changed drastically since patch 4.0 so there is a lot to learn all over again and things continually change. To create a personae that everyone else is stupid for having another opinion does nothing but damage the already fragile Hunter community.


The funny thing, is that you guys are harping on **** that the OP didnt even ask about. I offered one flipping video that I used to get some ideas that were helpful and this went into a flame war of preposterous proportions that had nothing to do with the **** OP's query. Seriously? 99.5% of the stuff discussed here we are actually in full agreement, but its the minor **** that seems to have all of you up in a dander and hard pressed to make me look idiotic when in fact, youre harping on seriously minor detail stuff that deals with RAIDING or heroic grouping when the OP asked about SOLOING.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/Meiune/DPS1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/Meiune/DPS2.jpg
Average numbers above. Nothing special. Not the best, but no one can say they are the worst either, with how quickly things change lately for the Hunter as we all scramble to keep up to date.

You guys enjoy your forum and tearing each other down or circle jerking one another instead of taking the time to truly understand and grasp what people are actually aking as they SEEK help in what is supposed to be a forum they can do that. I'm an old timer here on Allahs, but if I were a new member to this place you could bet your **** I wouldnt be here for long.

Enjoy the echos of your own self congratulations, boys. Its truly a hopping place to be king. Smiley: tongue

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#29 Jan 11 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Finally a post I can work with!!!
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I

I'll compare the video's spec with the Cookie Cutter spec

The first thing where he goes wrong is Point of No Escape: Bosses are not affected by frost or freezing trap so those talent points only work on adds.
Lowering the chance to resist on your traps is more effective for adds (as, as far as I know, traps still use spell hit) and the shorter cooldown on disengage is good because it's the single best ability we have for raids, nothing like moving twice as fast and efficient because you're disengaging to where you need to be.
Next he talks about how he would want 2 points in serpent spread for "real dps", I'd say just read what it does and think about it for 10 seconds and you'll figure out why 2 points in there makes no sense. All the second point adds is one more tick of serpent sting, the damage you get in AoE situations from serpent sting is very little, almost all of it is multishot itself and improved serpent sting. And if that isn't enough you'll either shoot a new multishot within 6 seconds or the mobs are dead.
The next thing he does is going into BM, he picks up 3 points in One With Nature for 30% more attack power from AotH, 30% sounds like a lot but in reality it's only (638*0.3=) 191.4 AP, assuming that 1 AP = 0.7 dps this means that you're getting (191.4*0.7=) 133.98 or 134 dps from 3 talent points or 44.66 dps per point, that's very little when you're doing 14-15k dps.
Then he spends 2 points on an ability he admits he will never use while right next to that is Bestial Discipline which increases the amount of special attacks your pet can do and thus increases your pet's dps. To be honest these two points should have been a really big DO NOT LISTEN TO ME sign.
After that he spends points in Frenzy and Frenzy is good, however he has completely overlooked the 4 points you can spend to increase the number of special attacks your pet does in Marksman.
He does talk about Careful Aim after that, but he is making no sense, wanting it tested (It's just math... and simple math at that) and somehow thinking that you'd completely ignore all other shots when above 80% of mob hp.

Below is the math for Careful Aim:
Assumed:
5 minute fight, 1 minute spent at 80% health or higher.
Cobra shot hits for 5k, crits for 10k.
Hunter has enough haste to get 1.66 second cast time of cobra shot.

In 1 minute, you shoot 14 explosive shots (4 from Lock and Load), 3 black arrows (this assumes that you are using the PvP gloves as you should), 1 serpent sting, 1 hunter's mark which takes 19 seconds.
41 seconds of cobra shots left you wll fire 41 / 1.66 = 24.69... cobra shots.
Out of those 247 cobra shots an additional 60% will crit which means 24 * 0.6 = 14.4 extra crits, each crit adds 5k damage for a total of 14.4 * 5 = 72k additional damage.
72k over 5 minutes is 72000 / 300 = 240 dps or in other words 1 point in Careful Aim gives 75.3 more dps than 1 point in One With Nature and that's assuming you're wearing blues and are not raidbuffed.


OK so here are questions. IF you do TL & L&L for any reason, and adds are a good reason to proc that, why would you waste points in Disengage? AS OF YET I have not had any need for disengage that often that I worry about its cool down. Even being the focus for Pillar in Magmar, my disengage was completely up and ready to move when needed. To me, thise are a waste of talent points I could better use for maximizing more DPS, even if it is not consistent. Its still more DPS than a cooldown, KWIM?

I agree with you on the 2 points in SS. Its unnecessary.

A Lot of the cookie cutter talents focus a lot on your pets focus regen. I've never noticed an issue with my pets focus regen. I can understand putting talent points in for that but I notice on CC you have 3 points to specifically regen your pets focus. That just seems excessive to me and a loss where you can use that point to up somewhere else. Are pets REALLY losing out on DPS that much that they need so much help in focus?

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#30 Jan 11 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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One thing I forgot to mention is his rotation: For one he uses Explosive > Cobra > Explosive > Cobra > Explosive during Lock and Load, the problem here is that the second cobra is most likely 1: not adding any more focus because you're capped and 2: delaying your next explosive shot by 0.5 seconds. The better thing to do is ExS > CS > ExS > Arcane Shot > ExS.
After the next Loc and Load he wants to dump focus, what he does is just fire off a couple of Arcane Shots, the problem there is that he is not thinking about his next Explosive Shot at all, he's just randomly firing off arcanes and then **** about Explosive Shot's cooldown. ExS cooldown is always 6 seconds, the first is used up by the Global Cooldown from explosive shot itself and then you have 5 more seconds.
5 seconds fits in exactly 3 Cobra Shots if you are at the first haste softcap (757 haste to get to 1.66 sec CS) and when firing off 3 arcane shots you are using up 3 out of the 5 seconds, he then shoots 2 cobra shots which results in delaying his next Explosive shot by almost 1.5 seconds. What he should have done is fire 2 arcane shots and 2 cobra shots and only delay his next Explosive shot by less than 0.5 seconds, he wold have been high on focus but not delaying Explosive Shots is much more valuable for dps. And a few seconds later he's out of focus and needs to shoot both Black Arrow and Explosive which results in delaying explosive by yet another few seconds. (Nice comment on how hard it is to have enough focus for that follows, you can see that coming for 20 seconds if you're not prepared you just failed) by this time he has delayed his Explosive so much that he has essentially lost one or more explosive shots.

So to say how it should be done:
Explosive > 3x Cobra Shot > Explosive is what you stick to for dps, it's really just that simple.
When Black Arrow gets off cooldown you can go Explosive > Black arrow+Arcane+2 Cobra Shots > Explosive, the order of the shots in the middle aren't very important, depends on when BA is off cooldown.
If BA and ExS are off cooldown at the exact same time I personally always delay BA even if it's a slight dps loss because it's just easier to maintain the ExS > 3(4) shots > ExS without having to pay attention to it as that prevents any chance of OhcrapwhatamIsupposedtodonow!? situations and allows you to focus for the full 100% on the actual fight.
When Lock and Load procs you shoot Explosive shot > Cobra > Explosive Shot > Arcane Shot > Explosive Shot. If Black Arrow comes off cooldown during Lock and Load you replace either Cobra or Arcane with BA, if you replace Cobra with BA and are then under 64 focus replace Arcane by Cobra so you are sure that you shoot your Explosive Shots as fast as possible.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 9:23pm by Aethien
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YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#31 Jan 11 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Explosive > 3x Cobra Shot > Explosive is what you stick to for dps, it's really just that simple.
When Black Arrow gets off cooldown you can go Explosive > Black arrow+Arcane+2 Cobra Shots > Explosive, the order of the shots in the middle aren't very important, depends on when BA is off cooldown.
If BA and ExS are off cooldown at the exact same time I personally always delay BA even if it's a slight dps loss because it's just easier to maintain the ExS > 3(4) shots > ExS without having to pay attention to it as that prevents any chance of OhcrapwhatamIsupposedtodonow!? situations and allows you to focus for the full 100% on the actual fight.
When Lock and Load procs you shoot Explosive shot > Cobra > Explosive Shot > Arcane Shot > Explosive Shot. If Black Arrow comes off cooldown during Lock and Load you replace either Cobra or Arcane with BA, if you replace Cobra with BA and are then under 64 focus replace Arcane by Cobra so you are sure that you shoot your Explosive Shots as fast as possible.


Ive got this rotation down. Its not the rotation we are disagreeing on

ETS also:
Quote:
The next thing he does is going into BM, he picks up 3 points in One With Nature for 30% more attack power from AotH, 30% sounds like a lot but in reality it's only (638*0.3=) 191.4 AP, assuming that 1 AP = 0.7 dps this means that you're getting (191.4*0.7=) 133.98 or 134 dps from 3 talent points or 44.66 dps per point, that's very little when you're doing 14-15k dps.


Im in game right now and AoH is base 829 AP. 30% of 829 is 248.7 248.7*.7=174.09. And while 58.03 DPS per point doesnt sound like much, when stacked together and used in every single fight you do, Im still going to say OwN is worth it. Id rather use that than focus 3 points for pet regen.




Editing one more time as Im going through this in game:

I notice in CC you have 2 points in Survival tactics, which is disengage, but also reduces trap spell resistance by 4%. However, if your HR is capped at 8% this should be a non issue, and a waste of points that could be better used in other areas to help consistent DPS. IF your HR is not capped though it would be good to use until you get there.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:46pm by DSD
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#32 Jan 11 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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Lady DSD wrote:
OK so here are questions. IF you do TL & L&L for any reason, and adds are a good reason to proc that, why would you waste points in Disengage? AS OF YET I have not had any need for disengage that often that I worry about its cool down. Even being the focus for Pillar in Magmar, my disengage was completely up and ready to move when needed. To me, thise are a waste of talent points I could better use for maximizing more DPS, even if it is not consistent. Its still more DPS than a cooldown, KWIM?
Traps are not used often even for adds, if you're using it they can resist it and you're better off reducing the chance to resist it than the 6% crit for mobs because when you need to trap add you need to make sure they will be trapped and if you don't need to trap them you're better off just DPSing instead of trapping because the shots you fire in the time it takes to use trap launcher+frost trap is worth more than the 6% crit you get from Point of no Escape.
And you're using Black Arrow to proc Lock and Load, with BA having a 20 sec cooldown because of the PvP gloves and LnL having a 22 second cooldown it'll go off almost every single time anyway.

As for Disengage, it's probably not used that much yet early on in raids and in heroics but the more complicated fights (and hardmodes) will become the more you'll have to move and the more important it becomes to take as little damage as possible.
And the single most important factor in dps is in how good you are at not moving for longer than you need to. I cannot stress this point enough, the largest difference between an average joe and a top end raider is that the top end raider moves his toon more efficient and less often, resulting in more straight up dps time and less time spent running from point A to point B or less time spent in that big pool of poison that the boss just dropped under your feet.

I've spent a good amount of time raiding under a raid leader who was truly skilled at the game, I made it a game within a game to try and predict where he was going to move when avoiding AoE. He didn't just avoid the AoE, he avoided it with as little movement as needed, without losing dps time and at the same time making sure he wouldn't have to move any more for the next AoE.
He made optimal use of his knowledge of fights to maximize dps uptime

Quote:
A Lot of the cookie cutter talents focus a lot on your pets focus regen. I've never noticed an issue with my pets focus regen. I can understand putting talent points in for that but I notice on CC you have 3 points to specifically regen your pets focus. That just seems excessive to me and a loss where you can use that point to up somewhere else. Are pets REALLY losing out on DPS that much that they need so much help in focus?
Short answer: Yes.

Long answer, the pet focus regen talents aren't spectacular, they're just better than the alternatives because the alternatives are worthless. (See One With Nature math)
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YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#33 Jan 11 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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Lady DSD wrote:
Im in game right now and AoH is base 829 AP. 30% of 829 is 248.7 248.7*.7=174.09. And while 58.03 DPS per point doesnt sound like much, when stacked together and used in every single fight you do, Im still going to say OwN is worth it. Id rather use that than focus 3 points for pet regen.
638*1.3=829, your tooltip simply already has the 30% added in. And reread my math or check it for yourself at FemaleDwarf.

Quote:
I notice in CC you have 2 points in Survival tactics, which is disengage, but also reduces trap spell resistance by 4%. However, if your HR is capped at 8% this should be a non issue, and a waste of points that could be better used in other areas to help consistent DPS. IF your HR is not capped though it would be good to use until you get there.
Traps still use spell hit as far as I know, which is 16 or 17% to hit a boss level mob.
Edit: I can't find any data on a possible change for this and it also explains why frost/freezing trap for LnL doesn't always work, it's simply resisted by the boss.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 10:04pm by Aethien
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YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
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#34 Jan 11 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Traps still use spell hit as far as I know, which is 16 or 17% to hit a boss level mob.
If this was the case you would think your Spell HC would increase when you add these into the talent mix. However I just tried it with no change to that aspect. Take it for what thats worth /shrug
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#35 Jan 11 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lady DSD wrote:
That said, having other opinions does not make one ignorant on the Hunter itself.

This is true, but using opinions to fuel a derail of a thread with a "no you're wrong even though you have math and EJ to back you up and I just have mediocre DPS numbers" isn't a way to prove your theory about DPS.

Had you come into the thread and pointed to math that's been done rather than a bad video by a random guy on YouTube, you would have had a much different reception.

I really don't mind your attitude; it's nice to see someone ruffle Aethien's feathers and get him to post. It's the data that you're posting that is the problem.
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#36 Jan 11 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Lady DSD wrote:
If this was the case you would think your Spell HC would increase when you add these into the talent mix. However I just tried it with no change to that aspect. Take it for what thats worth /shrug
The talent only increases hit for traps, not for spells so it won't show up in the spellbook.

Edit: and since when do I need extra motivation to post? Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 10:20pm by Aethien
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
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#37 Jan 11 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This is true, but using opinions to fuel a derail of a thread with a "no you're wrong even though you have math and EJ to back you up and I just have mediocre DPS numbers" isn't a way to prove your theory about DPS.


No one used opinions to fuel a derail on purpose. And to imply I came in with a hidden agenda is ridiculous. Smiley: rolleyes Im willing to learn (if you cared to take the time to read the past few posts) and Im not one who will refuse to admit when wrong. My biggest enjoyment of this game is actually being useful and able to pull out numbers for my guild. At the same time I refuse to have it implied a differing opinion is ludicrous and ignorant. Its not, and that is my point.

Now catch up, we're discussing alternate options and why we go with what we chose

edit stupid spellcheck

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:25pm by DSD
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#38 Jan 11 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Lady DSD wrote:
If this was the case you would think your Spell HC would increase when you add these into the talent mix. However I just tried it with no change to that aspect. Take it for what thats worth /shrug
The talent only increases hit for traps, not for spells so it won't show up in the spellbook.

Edit: and since when do I need extra motivation to post? Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 10:20pm by Aethien


I didnt look in my spell book I looked under my stats. I also see no where where you can see the positive change if it only does your trap. If thats the case 2 points in for 1 spell vs using those points somewhere else seems a waste to me.
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#39 Jan 11 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, stats, not spellbook. My bad.
Either way since it only applies to traps and there isn't any place where your chance to hit with traps is shown it won't show up anywhere.
Also, I wrote this earlier:
When you need to trap add you need to make sure they will be trapped and if you don't need to trap them you're better off just DPSing instead of trapping because the shots you fire in the time it takes to use trap launcher+frost trap is worth more than the 6% crit you get from Point of no Escape.

Still, the most important reason you spec into Survival Tactics is because there simply isn't an alternative. There's no other place to put those points that gives you more utility than SI.
The only possible alternatives are 1: Hunter vs Wild which would give you 7% hp, you could change to this for a stand and shoot fight with unavoidable damage but there aren't many of those 2: Entrapment which roots targets affected by your snake and frost trap, could be useful when kiting mobs but when kiting mobs a shorter cooldown on Disengage is even better and making sure mobs are affected by your traps is as important as the immobilize 3: Point of No Escape which gives you 6% crit vs mobs in your frost trap which could be used when dpsing multiple mobs that need to be slowed and killed before they reach a certain point. Again, pretty **** limited use.

A reduced cooldown on Disengage however is useful on any heavy movement fight which there are a lot more of (definitely when you get to the harder, more complicated fights), plus disengaging where common classes need to walk is just freakin awesome.


Edit: To adress your previous post, dps has very little to do with opinions, dps is all about math and science.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 11:05pm by Aethien
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YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#40 Jan 11 2011 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
Lady DSD wrote:
I just found it absolutely astounding that here in a thread where people brought alternative information to help an OP out with their questions, were attacked not only verbally but through rate downs for not agreeing with the presumable ringleader of the hunter forums.


Well, to quote your original post.

DSD wrote:
To OP, if you are essentially soloing and not worrying about raiding, go with what works for you. All specs are good for that. If you are looking to raid, as it stands right now, SV is the highest in DPS. I did a lot of research in all specs and played with rotations and Im consistently hitting 10-12k on average in raids, after following this video guide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dRdphLmTFc


Bold = answering OP
Rest = not answering OP

So don't really say you were attacked after simply trying to help the op, because there were previous comments saying the exact same thing you said with regards the the op's question.

As for the video you posted, we have pretty high standards in the hunter forums. We want to make sure that information being posted is accurate. If it's not it's going to be called out and scrutinized. One of the biggest things that makes it not very good is that it was made/posted in October, back in beta, there have been a lot of changes to the class since then. So possibly back then his spec could have been more accurate to the best dps. His shot rotation is more accurate to back then when Arcane shot was pretty strong, seeing as he used nothing but arcane during LnL. There were many other things too I'm just too lazy to point them out.

To defend Aeth, he is pretty **** knowledgeable when it comes to hunter information. He takes the time to do the math, work with the spreadsheet figuring out numbers. He also tells it like it is. That's just Aeth's nature, one thing people have to learn when first coming to the hunter forums, as I'm sure is the same with most of the class forums.

I know I'm a little late but I was too lazy to get on the comp when I first saw some of these posts because I was laying down to take a nap.

TL:DR We want the most accurate information to provide users and when something is used that isn't very accurate it will be scrutinized.
#41 Jan 12 2011 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
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Hyolith is such a loyal minion Smiley: nod
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#42 Jan 12 2011 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Hyolith is such a loyal minion Smiley: nod


I've paid my dues when it comes to posting on hunter forums. I believe I have earned my place here. Smiley: tongue
#43 Jan 12 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Hyolith is such a loyal minion Smiley: nod


And yet, he keeps trying to bring the thread down when I thought we had moved on. Must feel good to have your sycophants nod like $2 bobbleheads at everything you copy and paste to create the image of knowledge earned Smiley: cool I notice lots of happy trigger fingers on those red arrows to anyone who seems to diasagree or question your stances. It seems despite trying to get a good convo going here to learn, it's a lose/lose situation. You lose by not having your ideals examined in order for you to maybe better learn your own class, the rest of us lose by being hindered when trying to create an actual discussion in the hopes of learning. I had hopes after starting up a decent discussion yesterday afternoon but it seems my initial impression was correct. Good to know so that I dont waste time here anymore with you fanbois who can't hold a conversation without tantruming. That sucks.


And on that note, I took a lot of time yesterday to respec to CC and try it out. Dummy gives you decent numbers in a steady, stable environment. Out in the real game where it's chaotic and well... a challenge, it's good, but not the best I hear everyone screaming about here as they refuse to even contemplate minor alternatives. And mid heroic instance I teleported back, respecced to what Im comfortable with, and the numbers jumped up significantly and consistently again.



Moral of the story here: math on paper may give you the perfect ideals when learning how to maximize your class to its fullest but the chaos that is in actually playing the game does not always bear the same results. You (general you) play what feels comfortable for you, and sometimes minor altering to the core ideal works for some. Going a different route than others is not bad nor does it show ineptitude in their class knowledge.

I took the time yesterday and spent hundreds of gold really trying to learn more with the information given here to see if I could find the optimal route both on a dummy AND in the areas I would use it. I didnt just post on a forum bantering back and forth throwing math out from a simulation found on other boards where others did the work. I took it and did the field work on my own. If anything, that should highlight that I take my role in my guild seriously, to be the best I can for them, as I have for over 7 years in multiple games, playing multiple classes depending on what was needed. I learned a lot. I learned that I was netting better damage with my way and I was a better player for it. Comfortability factor? Maybe. But I also got L&L to proc a **** of a lot more using TL (YES even on bosses ZOMG) which upped my DPS quite nicely Smiley: wink


I hope in time you guys realize that while your numbers on paper may be more sound mathmatically in a stable envrionment such as a dummy, that this is also a game (Definition: activity engaged in for diversion or amusement) and as such,actively belittling others for offering different ideas, and using the Karma button instead of actually using your mental muscle to get your point across is pretty pathetic. Frankly it says a lot about a person who cannot type succinctly get their point across. Im all about banter and I thoroughly enjoy a game of wits as I have on this site for a long time. However I also know when and where on this site to play said games, and when and where to filter and help others kindly when they seek it. I'm truly sorry a few of you have not yet figured that out yet.

And with that I leave this thread and you all, happy in knowing I alone at least put my money where my mouth was in real gaming and not vomited information from a simulated mathematical program, actually tried to better myself despite the juvenile drivel in here, and knowing that I can still get the job done and done well. Its a shame you're all going to skim this post and most likely not even get what I am trying to impart here, even far beyond the game itself. But it's a lesson that one day you may learn over time. Enjoy yourselves, boys.Smiley: wink



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#44 Jan 12 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lady DSD wrote:
Moral of the story here: math on paper may give you the perfect ideals when learning how to maximize your class to its fullest but the chaos that is in actually playing the game does not always bear the same results. You (general you) play what feels comfortable for you, and sometimes minor altering to the core ideal works for some. Going a different route than others is not bad nor does it show ineptitude in their class knowledge.

I took the time yesterday and spent hundreds of gold really trying to learn more with the information given here to see if I could find the optimal route both on a dummy AND in the areas I would use it. I didnt just post on a forum bantering back and forth throwing math out from a simulation found on other boards where others did the work. I took it and did the field work on my own.

I get that you're directing your posts at Aethien and the hunter forum in general, but I thought I'd mention that you're hardly the only one that does regular testing "in the field".

You post as if Aethien and Hyolith sit on the forums all the time reading EJ and regurgitating what they read verbatim and doing nothing else. I've had people accuse me of that, when I was spending thousands of gold (back in TBC before inflation was ridiculous) to respec and do my own testing, and it's not really conducive to a friendly attitude. Even if you're not spending thousands of gold, you're still doing your own testing if you're analyzing your data in heroics and raids.

Your holier-than-thou attitude is really pretty ridiculous, to be frank. You have zero accomplishments to speak of and as soon as someone starts questioning your numbers (as someone naturally will when you're espousing something that differs from the accepted facts), you act as if Aethien and Hyolith are the scourge of the hunter class.

I really don't get it. Why not act humble in presenting your findings so that others can learn? Why throw your ego around?

Math on paper can model for movement and anything you want it to, BTW, you just have to be smart enough to do the basic math. It also only shows potential, not what your actual DPS will be. The better you are, the closer you'll get to 100% of that modeled DPS number.

Those are the facts. You can whine about math all you want, but everyone who's successful at endgame to some extent follows the math modeling.
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The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#45 Jan 12 2011 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
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As long as you keep arguing against math you can spend all the gold you wish but you're still going to be a scrub.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#46 Jan 13 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Default
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1,457 posts
Shut up I'm better than all of you ! HAHAHAHA
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Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#47 Jan 13 2011 at 3:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Needs more PvP gloves.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#48 Jan 13 2011 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
Needs more gear period, want that epic pvp bow.
#49 Jan 13 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Default
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1,457 posts
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Needs more PvP gloves.


I believe you're referring to my wrist guards.

How's that photography thing working out Aeth?
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Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#50 Jan 13 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Default
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No, I'm telling yopu to get PvP gloves because -4 sec from BA cooldown is awesome.
____________________________
Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#51 Jan 13 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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527 posts
Isn't the reduction on the PvP gloves only 2 seconds now? I thought they nerfed it.

Edit: Just checked and it is 2 seconds now.

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 9:34pm by CaptinXeith
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