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Confused on MM, SV or BMFollow

#1 Dec 09 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I have heard on here BM is the way to go for leveling and soloing, but now I am hearing SV is. I don't do much in dungeons, I just quest and found BM really good. Being able to solo group quests is nice with a bear pet.

should my secondary spec be SV or MM?

thanks
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#2 Dec 16 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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You're secondary spec should definetly be dps. Of course you could always go dps as well.




Seriously though, they are all good. Just try them out and pick the two you like best.
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#3 Dec 16 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
Right now it seems that SV is the best raiding/dungeon spec, basically the best spec for highest dps.

For simply questing and what not then yes BM is your best bet. With a tenacity pet like your bear then it can definitely hold it's own. If you are questing above 80 then you better be careful as your pet will get hit for a lot more, but my 84 shale spider has 6.8k ticks from mend pet so it's usually able to stay alive.

So if you would ever like to start raiding or anything then your secondary spec should be SV.
#4 Dec 17 2010 at 3:04 AM Rating: Good
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Hyolith, Hero Among Heroes wrote:
Right now it seems that SV is the best raiding/dungeon spec, basically the best spec for highest dps.
Hmm, well ****. What's the SV rotation? Just spam Explosive on cooldown, keep up Serpent and Black Arrow and cobra's in between?
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#5 Dec 17 2010 at 5:47 AM Rating: Decent
I don't know about SV being the highest spec not now, I've been hitting 6k arcane shots with BM in a mix of Cata greens and blues and 10k Kill commands,and I can see those numbers increasing as my gear improves,and I get the kinks worked out of my shot rotation. The only problem I can see is keeping my pet alive in said dungeons,as it always seem to die at some point when I get to raids,and some heroic Cata dungeons..
#6 Dec 17 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, well ****. What's the SV rotation? Just spam Explosive on cooldown, keep up Serpent and Black Arrow and cobra's in between?


It should be that easy, but I have been doing better as MM on the dummies. My only guess was that my SV skills were a little rusty since it's been so long, but it's really not that hard. I don't know about BM beating out both SV and MM though, in my testing it was behind both.
#7 Dec 17 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
I've tried going SV for some dungeons and I end up going back to BM within a fight or two. SV is just so clunky, you get off serpent sting and Explosive shot and your out of focus practically. It's annoying trying to get BA up with it being so much focus and crap damage, but I also hate wasting a my time trying to trap, it almost ends up not being worth trying to throw out an immo trap.

I've really gotten into a groove with BM and do some decent boss damage on it. I just hit 85 yesterday so I'm working on trying to gear up a bit. I haven't even bothered to spec into MM as....bleh, I don't want to deal with MM right now.
#8 Jan 08 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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SV is BEST DPS by FAR for hunters as of right now. Rotatio I use is as follows: Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, Explosive, then Cobra x 3, then Explosive, and then i can sneak an arcance in. From there, just use Cobra mostly, make sure that when BA is coming close to off of CD then you have enough focus to cast it right away, as well as always having enough focus for Explosive when CD is up. When Lock n Load procs, first shoot Explosive shot, then IF FOCUS > 45 use an Arcane shot, and then another Explosive. However, IF your focus is LOW then first shot after LnL proc should still be Explosive, but then use a cobra next, then use explosive again, then dump remaining focus into arcane shots, and back to cobra to regen focus.

I have done lots of testing in all three, @ lvl 85 from an average ilevel of 320 all the way to 346 and every time I go, SV outshines the other two specs GREATLY.

Now, before people start saying "maybe you are just playing MM and BM wrong/poorly" know that I read up constantly on forums @ www.elitistjerks.com and have extensive knowledge of how to play ALL THREE hunter specs. Hunter was my first toon 4 years ago soo i have plenty of experience :)

That all being said, when 4.0.6 goes live, SV hunters are getting a 5% agi nerf, which should drop their OP DPS a touch, and BM Kill Command ability is getting a buff, as well as Chimera Shot getting a buff to, so the trees may even out a bit. But as for now, SV is far better than the other two in terms of pure dps.

Best of luck fellow hunters!!
#9 Jan 09 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
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demegod wrote:
Rotatio I use is as follows: Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, Explosive, then Cobra x 3, then Explosive
No.
Explosive > black arrow > serpent > Cobra x2 > Explosive to start with, you end up delaying your second explosive (and thus all following explosives) by 0.5 seconds but what you do is delaying the first explosive by 2 seconds.

Quote:
When Lock n Load procs, first shoot Explosive shot, then IF FOCUS > 45 use an Arcane shot, and then another Explosive. However, IF your focus is LOW then first shot after LnL proc should still be Explosive, but then use a cobra next, then use explosive again, then dump remaining focus into arcane shots, and back to cobra to regen focus.
Again, no.
Lock and load procs should be explosive > cobra > explosive > arcane > explosive. Substitute either the cobra or arcane by black arrow if it's off cooldown.
When you're shooting explosive > arcane during lock and load you're wasting a lock and load shot on arcane and arcane doesn't even do half the damage explosive does.

Edit: Also please make sure you understand what people are saying on EJ before you spread info.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 1:30pm by Aethien
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#10 Jan 10 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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To OP, if you are essentially soloing and not worrying about raiding, go with what works for you. All specs are good for that. If you are looking to raid, as it stands right now, SV is the highest in DPS. I did a lot of research in all specs and played with rotations and Im consistently hitting 10-12k on average in raids, after following this video guide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dRdphLmTFc
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#11 Jan 10 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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That video is awful.
1: Frost trap on boss which, surprise surprise, doesn't work at 1:35 in the video is something that has never, ever worked on bosses (same for point of no escape) Why it does work for him on the dummy the second time I don't know, it shouldn't be working. His dropping of traps is pretty much pointless anyway as you're wasting global cooldowns while Black Arrow is already taking care of Lock and Load procs. (and lock and load has a cooldown)
2: He has his spec wrong in all different sorts of ways. Just compare his spec to the cookie cutter spec (and read the math I did in the FAQ on Careful Aim) He isn't going off of math but off of "I think" and "I feel".
3: He handles Lock and Load wrong, read my previous post for that.

Basically what he does is guesswork.


Just read my previous post and remember Explosive shot > 3x cobra or 2x cobra, Black arrow, Arcane > explosive and repeat ad nauseum.
Assuming you have enough haste to get cobra shot down to 1.66 second cast time (which takes very little haste, so you do)
If you stick to that, you'll have sufficient focus and max dps.

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#12 Jan 10 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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You do your way, I'll do mine. I can say though that my DPS is consistently top on a 25 man raid in cata, and I have absolutely no issues in keeping it consistent. Also, you can utilize Freezing trap instead of frost to proc L&L and it's a lot more efficient and goes off much more often than Ice trap. And yes, it does go off on bosses if you know how to shoot, 90% of the time, making it absolutely worthwhile in adding to your rotation if you're worth your salt.

After a lot of research, trial and error, I have personally found that the best rotation to utilize maximum DPS is SS-> BA -> ES -> traplauncher with Freezing Trap -> CS. Proc for ES should go off by then so hit it twice for free, then back to CS until you hit ES again. Repeat CS x2, ES, getting off trap launcher with Freezing trap when cool down, finish off with kill shot nets you an easy 10K + DPS per fight.

Dont worry about arcane shot, dont worry about steady shot. They are a waste of time and focus. CS= Steady shot but it also refreshes SS so you only have to cast that at the beginning of each fight unless you worry about adds and SS wears off while you are doing other things.
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#13 Jan 10 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry but dps is pure math and nothing else, there is no your way or my way.
Freezing and frost trap do not work on bosses as they are CC and bosses are immune to CC, they do work on adds (not all, depends on the mechanism of the boss/add).
If, for some reason, it is working then it is most likely due to a bug and it warrants further testing.

Elitist Jerks is the place to get the best info for dps as all the theorycrafters gather there.
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#14 Jan 10 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, but Freezing trap does work to proc ES on boses. It may not freeze them but it makes the L&L proc go off and thats what counts in regards to DPS. I've done it countless times in groups and raids so Im not talking out of my *** here. So yeah, you do it your way and be happy with what you are doing. I'll do it my way and offer what I know works to create delicious DPS to those who ask. We can banter back and forth to your hearts content if thats what gets you off, but it wont change the fact that there isnt one way only to maximize DPS on raids.Smiley: wink
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#15 Jan 10 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is one way to maximize dps, period. What that way is can be discussed but it's simple fact that there is one way. Dps is math and the only difference is how good or bad you are at executing the optimal rotation/priority.
I know I come across like an ******* but the title and sig are there for a good reason. I am almost always right when it comes to hunter stuff and I never sugarcoat what I want to say.

If you are certain about freezing/frost trap proccing Lock and Load on bosses then by all means prove it, it could be true and if it is I'm interested in it as it could increase my dps. For now I'm going to be skeptical and assume that you're really just seeing Black Arrow proc Lock and Load and mistaking that for your trap proccing Lock and Load because it wouldn't make sense for a trap that fizzles to proc Lock and Load (as the boss not getting frozen means you got an "immune" message which really just makes the trap disappear.)
Another thing is that there's no mention of it on ElitistJerks and although it could be that nobody there has tried it nor stumbled upon it they are an inquisitive bunch who have been the first to figure out pretty much everything for years now.
The frost trap working in the video could be explained by the hunter in that video testing his dps on a level 85 (or lower level) dummy instead of the boss dummy, I don't know the placement of those dummies out of the top of my head.
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#16 Jan 10 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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While it is true that Frost Trap is "supposed" to proc LnL on bosses, it doesn't always work, and even when it does it's still better to use Black Arrow as your LnL provider. During beta it was better to use Trap Launcher+frost trap, but they buffed Black Arrow since then, making it the better choice for maximizing your DPS. With Trap Launcher costing two clicks(Launcher+Trap)and setting off your GCD, and as stated before, the proc's not guaranteed, you're wasting DPS time, instead of using that time actually dps'ing. Like Aethien said, use EJ, or Warcraft Hunter's Union and EJ, the hunters on there are constantly working on increasing their dps...meaning you can benefit from their work. While it's good to always try new things as a way to see if you can increase dps, it's not good to keep doing things that have proven to be lackluster.

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#17 Jan 10 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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There is one way to maximize dps, period. What that way is can be discussed but it's simple fact that there is one way.


Your boys (and gamer femmes) over at Elitist jerks would disagree with your sentiments that there is only one way judging by the 11 page thread of discussion on this very topic Smiley: laugh And FTR I'm VERY familiar with that forum tyvm Smiley: wink

Quote:
I know I come across like an @#%^ but the title and sig are there for a good reason. I am almost always right when it comes to hunter stuff and I never sugarcoat what I want to say.

I dont care how you come across, its no skin off my back. I came in here to help someone out and if you want to look like an elitist **** while you swing your epeen over semantics, be my guest Smiley: smile But you're still wrong. You may be "almost always right" but its the almost here that's the key. My DPS in heroic instances and in Cata raids is consistent and top using the rotation I provided above. I've spent hours researching my *** off and refining it because the guild I have been with for years over multiple games, is a guild that gets things done, and I need to be able to play my class as best as I can. I am doing that, and offered my suggestions. Take it as you will. Im not forcing you to use it. Im only providing information that may be valuable to others looking for information.

Quote:
If you are certain about freezing/frost trap proccing Lock and Load on bosses then by all means prove it, it could be true and if it is I'm interested in it as it could increase my dps.

Smiley: lol I dont need to prove it to you. If you are interested, get off your *** get into a raid and try it yourself. All I can say is, Im looking at my recount from last nights raid. I have 12.4k DPS on one fight and 11.9k DPS on another, using the rotation above. And thats pretty normal for my numbers.


And with that Im off to game. Have a good one, and to OP, best of luck to you. Do what you enjoy and love the game. That, above all, is what really matters most Smiley: cool

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#18 Jan 10 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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I stand corrected on that part, is/was there actually a blue post saying that frost trap is supposed to proc Lock and load as I was still going by what I know from Wrath.

Lady DSD wrote:
Quote:
There is one way to maximize dps, period. What that way is can be discussed but it's simple fact that there is one way.
Your boys (and gamer femmes) over at Elitist jerks would disagree with your sentiments that there is only one way judging by the 11 page thread of discussion on this very topic Smiley: laugh And FTR I'm VERY familiar with that forum tyvm Smiley: wink
Ask anyone on EJ and they'll tell you that there is one single best way. They might not know exactly what that way is but there sure as **** is only one optimal way, 11 pages of discussion on how to get optimal dps doesn't really prove your point at all.

Also, not to burst your bubble but 12k dps is mediocre at best.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 1:15am by Aethien
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#19 Jan 10 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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I can't find a blue post on it, but I do know it was a change that was made, I'm assuming to make trap launcher/LnL a viable method, but once they upped the damage on Black Arrow, the extra LnL procs from traps came out as a dps loss compared to just Black Arrow. This is due to the focus spent, GCD, and time spent to actually use the Launcher, compared to just dpsing and using Black Arrow. Here's a link to something I pulled up while searching for the blue post, gives a decent rundown of how to SV Hunter in Cata...currently anyway.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/27/scattered-shots-survival-hunter-101/

OP and LadyDSD, please read.
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#20 Jan 10 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm, yeah I certainly missed that.
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#21 Jan 11 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
Lady DSD wrote:
To OP, if you are essentially soloing and not worrying about raiding, go with what works for you. All specs are good for that. If you are looking to raid, as it stands right now, SV is the highest in DPS. I did a lot of research in all specs and played with rotations and Im consistently hitting 10-12k on average in raids, after following this video guide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dRdphLmTFc


Wow, just wow, I know I'm a little late to this, but I couldn't even finish that video. That dude is god awful. You're saying you followed this guys advice? It's so effing terrible.

"I put 2 in improved kill command just to get down to the next tier." Absolutely horrible.

Aethian wrote:
Also, not to burst your bubble but 12k dps is mediocre at best.


Agreed, I can do a lot more than 12k and I have one 359, and no heroic items.

Also as Aeth said there is only one way to achieve the best possible dps. If you disagree then you need to go back to school. Math doesn't change, if you solve for x in 2 + x = 4, there is only one possible answer for x to be, that is 2, there is no other way around it.

I don't really know what else to say just that that dude is awful, sheer terribad, your taking advice from a guy that was doing 6k in beta when everyone else was doing 12-15k. I could point out so many more terrible things he does during that video but I have better ways to waste my time.
#22 Jan 11 2011 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Duecalion wrote:
I can't find a blue post on it, but I do know it was a change that was made, I'm assuming to make trap launcher/LnL a viable method, but once they upped the damage on Black Arrow, the extra LnL procs from traps came out as a dps loss compared to just Black Arrow. This is due to the focus spent, GCD, and time spent to actually use the Launcher, compared to just dpsing and using Black Arrow. Here's a link to something I pulled up while searching for the blue post, gives a decent rundown of how to SV Hunter in Cata...currently anyway.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/27/scattered-shots-survival-hunter-101/

OP and LadyDSD, please read.

rate up for you and that was a good read. I took the info last night and test drove it on dummies for awhile to get an idea of the difference with what he is suggesting, and using TL. I did notice a slight uptic on DPS going this way for longer fights. However, I noticed ES procced a lot less and noticed a higher DPS on shorter fights.

I can totally see how one would lose DPS on average going TL if you are taking time away to click TL and set loc instead of just pure BA.


And to the others, I am totally cool with bantering back and forth about ideas and such, but if you're going to start actually rating down for differing viewpoints or using antagonistic and insulting verbiage to get your point across, you have already lost: your platform, respect, and a leg to stand on. As far as Im concerned, Im all about bickering back and forth and offering ideas to help each other out in this game. But the attitude shown in this thread alone heavily offers a scene of people who have their own self confidence issues and can only feel good about themsekles so long as they tear others down on a inconsequential gaming board. Must make you feel good, "men" Smiley: wink. Nice to see you at least have one bright spot in your life where you can pretend to be alpha.

Instead of showing numbers as I have, I see nothing you have offered MATH wise to support your claims. In other words, put up or shut up.
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#23 Jan 11 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Oooh I touched a nerve, did I? Classic! Smiley: lol Thanks for the chuckle, boys. I've enjoyed it Smiley: sly

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 11:59am by DSD
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
DSD kicked Alma in the *** on another thread over the weekend. Clearly, she kicked too hard as he's obviously still feeling it.


#24 Jan 11 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
Well since wow is currently under maint. I can't get on to do any dummy tests or get any information from a run, otherwise I would.

Though, from the spreadsheet, this is what I should be doing unbuffed, or well self buffed.

Combined: 12410.52 100.00%
Hunter: 10961.35 88.32%
Pet: 1449.16 11.68%

With raid buffs and debuffs:

Combined: 17581.78 100.00%
Hunter: 15473.80 88.01%
Pet: 2107.98 11.99%
#25 Jan 11 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lady DSD wrote:
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Oooh I touched a nerve, did I? Classic! Smiley: lol Thanks for the chuckle, boys. I've enjoyed it Smiley: sly

The only time I rate down people is when they're being willfully obtuse or they're whining about karma.

I hadn't rated you down at all 'til you made this post. Being combative and argumentative on a forum that generally accepts Aethien's opinion because 99% of the time he's right is a sure way to get rated down, similar to how the rogue forum operates with me.

Had you been humble and presented your findings with math, it would have been better received.

Just saying.
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#26 Jan 11 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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This thread has more ******** and less math then a druid healing thread.

I'm thoroughly disappointed in all of you.

Smiley: disappointed
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