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#1 Nov 23 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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In case you hadn't heard we're getting our talent points reset. Here's why:

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Druid (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Bear Form now provides 10% bonus health, down from 20%.
* Nourish no longer consumes Omen of Clarity.
* Rejuvenation has had its mana cost increased by 30%.
* Soothe now has a 1.5-second cast time.
* Swipe (Cat Form) can now be used even if the druid does not have a primary target selected.
* Thorns: beginner tooltip revised to no longer imply the spell could be kept up at all times. In addition, Thorns damage has been reduced by 60%.


Balance

* PvP set bonus redesigned. While not in an Eclipse state, critical attacks against the druid restore 5 Solar or 7 Lunar energy, whichever is more beneficial. This effect can only occur once every 6 seconds.


Feral

* Brutal Impact now increases the mana cost of spells on the victim by 5/10% for 10 seconds, down from 15/30%.
* Leader of the Pack now heals for 4%, down from 8%.
* Survival Instincts now provides 50% damage reduction, down from 60%, and its cooldown has been lowered from 5 minutes to 3 minutes.
* Swipe (Bear Form) damage has been reduced by 20%.
* Vengeance is no longer cleared on exiting Bear Form, and instead is cleared upon entering Cat Form.


Restoration

* Empowered Touch now procs from Healing Touch as well as Nourish.
* Heart of the Wild: the Bear Form Stamina bonus from this talent is now 2/4/6%, down from 3/7/10%.
* Malfurion's Gift no longer has Fury of Stormrage as a prerequisite talent.
* Natural Shapeshifter now also increases Tree of Life duration by 5/10 seconds.
* Revitalize is now a 2-point talent, down from 3. It provides a 20% chance to return 1/2% of the druid's total mana on periodic heals from Lifebloom or Rejuvenation. This effect cannot occur more than once every 12 seconds.
* Swift Rejuvenation is now a 1-point talent, down from 2. The global cooldown reduction this talent provides to Rejuvenation remains 0.5 seconds.
* Symbiosis: heal-over-time spells (Rejuvenation, Regrowth, Lifebloom) can no longer benefit from this Mastery merely by refreshing themselves. A different heal-over-time spell must be present.


Glyphs

* Glyph of Healing Touch now reduces the cooldown on Nature's Swiftness by 10 seconds after using Healing Touch, up from 5 seconds.
* Glyph of the Treant (new) allows druids to keep the original treant Tree of Life look... if they must. Must they?


Bug Fixes

* Blood in the Water now refreshes Rip to the correct value.
* Flight Form now properly appears in the trainer window before Expert Riding is learned.


Well Malfurion's Gift got a lot more accessible, and our mastery is still confounding. I'll be picking up Glyph of the Treant I think. Smiley: wink
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#2 Nov 23 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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Swipe (Cat Form) can now be used even if the druid does not have a primary target selected.


This would have been nice earlier in the expansion, but from what I hear everything is more single target in the Cata.

#3 Nov 23 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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* Swipe (Bear Form) damage has been reduced by 20%


Good thing I'm not leveling up another Bear Druid. Gimped Swipe and no other AOE until level 81. Why not just neuter us while you're at it?
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#4 Nov 23 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Default
bears apparently got nerfed ALOT more than they posted, last night i went from a threat machine, which is admittedly OP, to today i cant even hold threat on any mob that isnt my primary target, a couple pulls i got atleast 3-4 mauls and 1 or 2 swipes in before any dps even got to me, and they pulled the extra mobs off me with just 2 attacks

and my swipe does 700 on a non-crit and upwards of 10k on a crit O.o
#5 Nov 24 2010 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
Doesn't look like they made any talent changes to Boomkins. Yay I got a respec for free! :D I'd been wanting to respec to dump the feral talent for extra mana and get the resto one for higher dmg with Moonfire, I just hadn't gotten around to it.
#6 Nov 24 2010 at 5:21 AM Rating: Good
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OMGEverythingIsTaken wrote:
bears apparently got nerfed ALOT more than they posted, last night i went from a threat machine, which is admittedly OP, to today i cant even hold threat on any mob that isnt my primary target, a couple pulls i got atleast 3-4 mauls and 1 or 2 swipes in before any dps even got to me, and they pulled the extra mobs off me with just 2 attacks

and my swipe does 700 on a non-crit and upwards of 10k on a crit O.o


I did 11/12 ICC10 tonight and had no issues with aggro, being squishy or anything.

Had a DK for the other tank and between the two of us trash was fine. Bosses went smoothly as well except for BPC & Sindy as some didn't know the fights too well so it took 2-3 tries. The DK didn't BB/DnD the worms on Val either.
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#7 Nov 24 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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blue wrote:
* The damage done by the following abilities has been reduced by approximately 17%: Mangle (Bear), Maul, Lacerate, Pulverize, Swipe (Bear), Thrash.
ouch
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#8 Nov 24 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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I get why they nerfed the damage. Pushing 5k DPS in a heroic was kind of fun, but also ridiculous.

Hopefully they upped the threat gen to make up for it.
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#9 Nov 24 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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People are running some math on the O-boards and apparently Swipe (Bear) is broken. Someone registered it doing half the tooltip damage, which is what I'm seeing as well. Hits for ~500 and crits for ~1500. On a 6-second cooldown.

It's a joke trying to tank any AOE right now. A Warrior pulled aggro off of my Swipe + Demoralizing Roar with one Whirlwind.

Also, I lost 10k health.

Time to go Cat again.
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#10 Nov 26 2010 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Thorns: beginner tooltip revised to no longer imply the spell could be kept up at all times. In addition, Thorns damage has been reduced by 60%.


This is broken. I may have been a little OP with 4.0.1 but now its absolutely worthless. As for reduced by 60%- that is false also. It went from doing over 2k damage per hit to 394 (on my tooltip anyhow.) So a spell that can do maybe 1500 damage to attacker over a 20 second period that cost 1258 mana and its on a 45 second cooldown. That spell can now be taken off of my castbar.
#11 Nov 26 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think they want druids to tank. Smiley: frown
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#12 Nov 27 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
It certainly seems that way. Had an absolutely terrible bear tank in HoR last night. We had four druids in the group, him, me and two of my guildies (another boomkin and a tree), and the other boomkin was stealing hate from him doing single target dps, and then just doing moonfire spam and dying because of it. The healer was stealing hate from rejuv spam, and died once as well. The bear claimed that he sucked because blizz nerfed swipe, which is probably true at least in part, but he was extra bad. I stole hate once and got insta killed from Hurricaning everything, but that's what I always do and I've never had issues before.
#13 Nov 27 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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They put Swipe on a 6-second cooldown, but buffed its damage to compensate.

The problem right now is that Swipe is doing less damage than it did pre-cooldown, due to the bug, so basically the current situation is that Blizzard put a 6-second cooldown on Swipe and then reduced its damage by 20% or so.

Good times.
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#14 Nov 29 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's miserable. Up to now, I very rarely had threat issues in spite of the CD, now it's just a mess. I'm badge capped anyway, and don't really feel like selling more gems and recapping, so I'm just going to stop playing my druid until the 7th.
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#15 Nov 29 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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I regemmed/enchanted to Kitty and then respec'd Critchicken, because that's how I roll.

Makes it easier when HC farming anyway as I don't have to switch gear.
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#16 Nov 30 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Good
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Not super happy about the bear changes either. It's not as bad in raids with MD/Tricks, but AoE threat is basically non-existent, and heroics...well, almost better to swap into kitty and dps, you're not getting aggro anyway. I'm hoping it will get better as we pick up new skills, but I've found myself researching boomchicken again, just in case.
#17 Nov 30 2010 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Im prob going to go back as a healer for offspec. I loved tanking as a druid tank but now its just a pain. I can hold threat just fine single target but anything past that forget it. I guess with cata that might be ok with CC or whatever it is they plan to do, but I have my doubts. I prob will end up just putting up with the 15 min queues and just be a dps for dungeons.
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#18 Nov 30 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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I feel like I should mention that the current AOE situation is largely due to Swipe (Bear) being bugged. Obviously, a bug will not remain for long, but I'm guessing it'll not get squashed until Cataclysm.

Now, that said, the 20% damage nerf across the table is also not going to help. I don't care if it nerfs my DPS, but if they don't up the threat modifiers, we'll lose a lot of threat as well.

Still haven't forgiven them for the Swipe change, though. And Thrash at level 81? Death Knights still have Death & Decay plus a spammable Blood Boil. Warriors do more AOE threat than us at the moment, plus they get Thrash at a much earlier level through talents. Put Rend on one target and Thunder Clap. Everyone hit by the Thunder Clap also get Rend. And each Thunder Clap refreshes the effect. And they still have that AOE stun in Shockwave. Paladins have Consecrate and Holy Shield, plus a 3-hit silencing ranged attack.

I mean, what the hell are we supposed to deliver? So what if Cataclysm is the death of AOE? We still have to level up 20 levels in Outland and Northrend where AOE is king. And since Thrash isn't until after we leave those places, we'll be stuck with a gimped (but hopefully bug-free) Swipe for 80 freakin' levels.

Thanks, man. Thanks.

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 7:12pm by Mazra
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#19 Nov 30 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I seriously haven't had any problems with swipe before the bug. I had no trouble keeping aggro, it just wasn't mindless like it used to be. You're far over-exaggerating an imagined problem.
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#20 Nov 30 2010 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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@#%^sake, I'm too tired to start an argument with you, Xsarus. Smiley: lol

Maybe I'm over-exaggerating an imagined problem. I think you think I'm complaining about Swipe's damage output, which I'm not. I'm complaining about Ghostcrawler's solution to our AOE problem, which turned out to be a cooldown on Swipe and a weak AOE DoT 81 levels into the game.

We don't need another AOE ability 81 levels into the game. We need it when Swipe is at its weakest, which is during the AOE fest that is Outland and Northrend. Give us Thrash at level 60 or 58 and I'll be happy.

Will be interesting to see how the 20% damage nerf works out once they kill the bug. 20% on an AOE attack is a lot. Especially if they don't modify the threat.

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 11:54pm by Mazra
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#21 Nov 30 2010 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I honestly don't think the problem is exaggerated at all. I've been playing druid since the beginning of BC and tanking with it ever since. Never before have I had these types of issues tanking. I just can't do AoE tanking since the change. It's especially bad in the levels before you can even obtain gear with +hit on it or gem it with hit gems. Single target tanking is even worse without maul being on next attack. I just sit there with a full rage bar and I can't deplete it. AoE pulls I have no rage EVER. 30 for maul? 30 for swipe? really? Even your charge uses up rage instead of giving you some like a warrior. The changes were so frustrating for me that I made a warrior.

Warrior tanking has been nothing but fun since I started it. Rend, Thunderclap, Shockwave, cleave, thunderclap. That's pretty much it. Throw in a couple shield bashes and devastates and you're good. Single target is also fun with a completely different rotation. No threat problems, none at all. It's not as easy as wrath tanking but I think they got it just right. It's fun, fast paced and interesting. A similarly geared druid doesn't even come close to that kind of capability. Why would you make a tank class that doesn't compare to the other ones? It makes no sense.

*Edit*

I realize that they are trying to get away from AoE tanking, and I understand and like the idea of CC, LoS pulls..etc. This might even encourage CC in BC and northrend instances. But what is more likely to happen? People using CC or just waiting for a warrior or DK to come along and tank for you? I remember the trade messages in BC. "LF1M Paladin tank for H SL." I never saw people requesting warriors or druids. Why, because people always take the path of least resistance.

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 7:00pm by snieh
#22 Dec 01 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I played a warrior tank all throughout BC. At first, it didn't matter if you were a paladin, you still couldn't aoe because you simply couldn't handle all the mobs. After people overgeared it, sure, it was easier to run through with a pally, but I also did it on my warrior you just had to be a little more careful. Kill one before you start the aoe.

I've tanked many dungeons since the swipe change, and I've been chain pulling just the same. All it takes is a little more thought and effort and there is no problem holding aggro with a 6 second CD aoe spell. Sure, now that it's bugged it's a bit harder, but even now, I don't really have problems. It certainly was easy to just hit swipe over and over and go to sleep, but that's not skill, and that's not fun.

Sorry guys, you're just spoiled by the mindless one button spam that tanking in this expansion has become. I think the 6 second change is a great change, and if it weeds out the tanks that can't hack it, even better. The complaints in this thread seem to be that dps are idiots and can't handle having to think, so will always go with a tank that can easily hold aoe threat. That's not going to be a problem, you're a tank, they're not exactly overplayed, so you'll be fine and still get groups very easily regardless of your class.

I will say that I do think the rage cost of swipe should be lowered.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 10:20am by Xsarus
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#23 Dec 01 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Sorry guys, you're just spoiled by the mindless one button spam that tanking in this expansion has become. I think the 6 second change is a great change, and if it weeds out the tanks that can't hack it, even better.


Smiley: facepalm

I have a character of every tanking class in the game, and it's not like I've done nothing but spam Swipe the last two years. The 6-second change, in terms of making the game more interesting, was a complete blunder. Sure, put a cooldown on it so we don't have to mash it every GCD, but that doesn't make the AOE rotation more interesting. It just means we've got six seconds of Maul and Demoralizing Roar spam while we wait for Swipe to come off the cooldown again, because it's still the best AOE attack we have.

Thrash was a move in the right direction, but putting it into the game at level 81 was downright retarded, for two major reasons:

1. Cataclysm (80+) is allegedly the death of AOE.
2. Outland (60-70) and Northrend (70-80) have not changed.

So we get an additional AOE attack the moment we leave the content that required lots of AOE. I mean, who the hell came up with that idea?

And, Xsarus, I don't know what level your Druid is, or what it's wearing, but Swipe is complete weaksauce when you're not wearing T10 equivalent gear or better. The 2pT10 bonus adds 20% to Swipe! I can't even begin to imagine what kind of hell Bears without two pieces of T10 are now facing. 20% reduced in the patch and 20% reduced from not wearing T10.

Sir Xsarus wrote:
Sure, now that it's bugged it's a bit harder, but even now, I don't really have problem


You trollin'? Seriously, you don't have issues after the bug that cut the damage of Swipe in half by accident? Could you direct me to whatever game you're playing where Druids don't have to rely on Swipe for AOE? Sounds intriguing. Especially since a Swipe using level 1 base values is good enough for you to tank stuff. Sounds like an amazing game.

In my world, on my planet, DPS is now doing somewhere between 8,000 and 15,000 DPS in heroics. Maybe you're running with guildies, or exceptionally bright puggies, who understand that you need some prep time before they go all blood lust AOE on you, but again, in my world I'm running dungeons with random nubcakes of the 21st degree. You tell them to wait up and they'll charge ahead. You tell them you need a couple of seconds to secure aggro because Swipe is broken and they'll charge ahead.

That you're even defending the bug, by saying it's not really an issue, is beyond my comprehension, and I'm afraid I'll have to go stab a puppy now.

My point, throughout most of this thread, is that the Swipe change in terms of making the game interesting was fail. That adding Thrash was a good move, but adding it 81 levels into the game was idiotic. I know end-game is what the game is balanced around, but I'm sure Blizzard would prefer it if people actually got to end-game without killing someone out of sheer frustration first.

Tanking, even before the Swipe bug, was not more interesting. Sure, you have to apply Pulverize every couple of seconds, but Lacerate only stacks to three, so it's not like I'm in dire need of spare GCDs. And AOE tanking is just downright boring. Swipe > Maul > Demoralizing Roar > Swipe > Maul...

But what do I know, I'm just over-exaggerating an imagined problem.

WTB shuttle ride to Xsarus' planet.
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#24 Dec 01 2010 at 12:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
The 6-second change, in terms of making the game more interesting, was a complete blunder. Sure, put a cooldown on it so we don't have to mash it every GCD, but that doesn't make the AOE rotation more interesting. It just means we've got six seconds of Maul and Demoralizing Roar spam while we wait for Swipe to come off the cooldown again, because it's still the best AOE attack we have.
Before we just spamed swipe and maul for aoe thread. Now we hit Swipe when mobs are in range and target swap to put lacerates up. Swapping targets to make sure threat generation is there is a skill that tanks used to have but have lost with wrath. All the lacerates give us tons of free mangles, so we can put out even more threat. I think the worst part right now is getting threat on a group with no rage, lowering the cost of swipe would be a good move there.

Mazra wrote:
Thrash was a move in the right direction, but putting it into the game at level 81 was downright retarded, for two major reasons:

1. Cataclysm (80+) is allegedly the death of AOE.
2. Outland (60-70) and Northrend (70-80) have not changed.
Ok, but outland was never a land of aoe anyway, and wrath wasn't as much of an AOE fest when you leveled through it anyway. Neither area requires you to use aoe, things die pretty much as fast with single target dps.

Mazra wrote:
And, Xsarus, I don't know what level your Druid is, or what it's wearing, but Swipe is complete weaksauce when you're not wearing T10 equivalent gear or better. The 2pT10 bonus adds 20% to Swipe! I can't even begin to imagine what kind of hell Bears without two pieces of T10 are now facing. 20% reduced in the patch and 20% reduced from not wearing T10.
ok, this is fair, I hadn't thought of the T10 bonus. my average gear level is about 270, with the 2pT10 so that does have an effect. I'm running with other geared people though, so the threat should equal out.

Mazra wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Sure, now that it's bugged it's a bit harder, but even now, I don't really have problem


You trollin'? Seriously, you don't have issues after the bug that cut the damage of Swipe in half by accident? Could you direct me to whatever game you're playing where Druids don't have to rely on Swipe for AOE? Sounds intriguing. Especially since a Swipe using level 1 base values is good enough for you to tank stuff. Sounds like an amazing game.
With the broken swipe mostly I can hold things until if they do pull they can be killed easily without me having to tank them. Like you said, the dps is very high, so trash dies super fast anyway. I'm not defending the broken swipe, it's rough, and makes me work super hard. But it's totally not something you have to rely on by itself. Use maul, put lacerates on all the targets, and of course hit swipe off CD. A mangle+maul will be enough to hold a main target on you for trash, so just tell the dps to kill one before just aoeing. mangle+maul, swipe, and a few lacerates will get most of the mobs onto you solidly, and then you can just taunt the one that pulled off. I don't understand why telling the dps to kill one thing first is a problem, I've very rarely had people not understand how to do that with LFG

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That you're even defending the bug
I'm not defending the bug.

Quote:
My point, throughout most of this thread, is that the Swipe change in terms of making the game interesting was fail. That adding Thrash was a good move, but adding it 81 levels into the game was idiotic.
I disagree. I think adding a CD on AOE abilities so that you have to spread single target abilities throughout the mobs to hold aggro is an excellent way to spice up tanking, and it also makes sure that people won't just blindly aoe. There is no requirement to use AOE. You basically have two options, either you can spam aoe threat, or they make you work for it. Tanking got way more fun after 4.01 for me.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 12:42pm by Xsarus
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#25 Dec 01 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Before we just spamed swipe and maul for aoe thread. Now we hit Swipe when mobs are in range and target swap to put lacerates up. Swapping targets to make sure threat generation is there is a skill that tanks used to have but have lost with wrath.


The randomness of the Tab key doesn't help a lot either. But Swipe should be able to secure a threat lead so that we have time to apply Lacerates. It currently doesn't. Part due to the bug, but even then, DPS AOE isn't getting nerfed along with the tank AOE. I'm not saying I should just be able to Swipe every six seconds and win, but it would be helpful if the first Swipe actually had an impact.

Sir Xsarus wrote:
Ok, but outland was never a land of aoe anyway, and wrath wasn't as much of an AOE fest when you leveled through it anyway. Neither area requires you to use aoe, things die pretty much as fast with single target dps.


Smiley: dubious

I recently leveled a Priest and Death Knight through Outland and am now running low level dungeons in Northrend. I don't know where you got the idea that Outland isn't AOE heavy. It begins with Hellfire Ramparts and the 3+ groups you pull there. It ends in Mana Tombs and all that jazz where you pull 10+ owls or mana wyrms at once. Good stuff.

Sir Xsarus wrote:
ok, this is fair, I hadn't thought of the T10 bonus. my average gear level is about 270, with the 2pT10 so that does have an effect. I'm running with other geared people though, so the threat should equal out.


The problem being that once we hit end-game in Cataclysm and people start leveling up new tanks, they'll eventually get in a group with level 85's in T12 or whatever. And while leveling up, they'll run into people in heirlooms. Heirlooms are crazy overpowered while leveling, that's why people get them.

Sir Xsarus wrote:
With the broken swipe mostly I can hold things until if they do pull they can be killed easily without me having to tank them. Like you said, the dps is very high, so trash dies super fast anyway. I'm not defending the broken swipe, it's rough, and makes me work super hard. But it's totally not something you have to rely on by itself. Use maul, put lacerates on all the targets, and of course hit swipe off CD.


The problem again being that in the 10 seconds it takes for me to apply Lacerate to 10+ mobs, my healer and every single DPS would've pulled aggro and probably died. The solution would be to:

Sir Xsarus wrote:
A mangle+maul will be enough to hold a main target on you for trash, so just tell the dps to kill one before just aoeing.


And the problem here is that generally, random people on the internet don't acknowledge authority. These are the people who brought you the **** jokes. They don't listen. If they die too much, they just kick you from the group.

Sir Xsarus wrote:
I'm not defending the bug.


Fair enough.

Sir Xsarus wrote:
I think adding a CD on AOE abilities so that you have to spread single target abilities throughout the mobs to hold aggro is an excellent way to spice up tanking, and it also makes sure that people won't just blindly aoe. There is no requirement to use AOE. You basically have two options, either you can spam aoe threat, or they make you work for it. Tanking got way more fun after 4.01 for me.


Fun and frustration are two separate things to me. Making the game harder is not the same as making it more interesting or fun. At least not to me. If I wanted to be challenged and frustrated with the game, I'd play it blindfold with my right arm tied to my head.

I want the option. Every other class gets one.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 8:38pm by Mazra
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#26 Dec 01 2010 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem again being that in the 10 seconds it takes for me to apply Lacerate to 10+ mobs, my healer and every single DPS would've pulled aggro and probably died.
In situations with 10+ mobs, you'll either be raiding and have more then one tank, or the mobs will die so fast that it's not an issue. Really big trash packs generally are designed so that they won't kill anyone in one or two hits.

Quote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
A mangle+maul will be enough to hold a main target on you for trash, so just tell the dps to kill one before just aoeing.
And the problem here is that generally, random people on the internet don't acknowledge authority.
I guess all I can say to that is that it seems like you've gotten bad groups? People have generally been fine in my groups, it's not authority, you just say, hey my swipe is broken, can you kill my target first. At any rate, this is a problem caused by too much AOE in wrath. The players have been educated to play a certain way, and it'll take time to re-educate them. This might involve some pain, but the re-education is still worth it. People will learn. Swipe, even broken is enough to keep the mobs off the healer.

Quote:
Making the game harder is not the same as making it more interesting or fun.
Making the game easier is not the same as making it more interesting or fun.

I find having to actually pay attention to my targets, maybe even mark one or two way more fun than just hitting swipe over and over.


Edited, Dec 1st 2010 2:16pm by Xsarus
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