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Elitism and Mages.Follow

#1 Sep 13 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
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Newbie here.

I have read this Mage forum for some time and have gained lots of knowledge and insight regarding Hit Caps, rotation etc.

I have however noticed recently an 'elitist' attitude creeping into the post answers. eg "Thats dumb" or "thats stupid" etc. Did it coincide with the 'Kingslayer' title?

Please do not belittle those who would not normally post on here and keep this forum open to all mages 'big or small'.

Going back to my main point, in my opinion the game and it is only a game, is slowly squeezing out casual players such as myself because of the inherant snobbery it creates via the reward system. Which in turn is reflected via attitudes of the players.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Thanks!







#2 Sep 13 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I haven't really noticed it, unless you are saying that I am an elitist...

The kingslayer title really doesn't mean anything now, especially with the 30% buff, it is quite puggable on many servers at least in 10man.

This late into an expansion pretty much all of the information is there and finalized, there isn't too much wiggle-room or other thought-provoking topics and the answers are cut-and-dry as to what is best at pretty much all content levels. So if someone comes here and says 'What about this build? 30/21/10?!!' then it is easy to say 'read the sticky, your build is bad.'



As for the game squeezing out casuals, that is so far from the truth it isn't funny, but almost is. There are more ways now to get into end-game anything than ever before. In a week you can be geared up enough to enter ICC. In TBC it would take you months as the gear progression pretty much required you to go from T4->T6, causing many more guilds to become stepping stone guilds as people would leave them while they are floundering for guilds that are doing better.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 2:16pm by Anobix
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#3 Sep 13 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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I believe I'm the only person on the Mage forums who has an undeserved Elitist attitude.
By that, I mean, yes, I have a short attention span for questions that, to me, seem to have obvious answers, and yes I do a LOT of testing and research. I do not, however, even have 10 man Sindragosa downed, let alone LK.
Do I feel like I spread that elitist attitude too far, to the point where it's driving newbies away? Not so much. I'm actually very docile in the mage forums.
Can you please point out specific infractions that you're seeing, because I'm really confused as to what you could mean, when the Mage forum is actually quite newbie friendly.
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#4 Sep 13 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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I've never noticed any kind of elitist attitude on the Mage forums, so I frankly have no clue what you are talking about.

I also want to note that there is potentially a correlation between what you consider to be elitist responses and questions that are frankly ridiculous.

I mean, if someone comes in and posts about their uber cool Frost spec where they spam Fireball and are complaining that others aren't letting them "play their way." Then yes, you are going to get flamed, and flamed hard.

But I can't think of a time when any of us have ever responded with an elitist attitude to any legitimate question.

Look at the post valleyum made on this page, DPS Issues. Actually read the responses. The only thing that comes off elitist in that thread is jay's first post. And that's because he's the first poster--someone had to say it. We spend a lot of time reading posts here, you have to format them to be taken seriously. And speaking from experience, being blunt about it is the surest way to make sure they actually change (and hopefully become better, regular posters).

And the rest of jay's post is informative, and the things he says are fair.

NOTHING in that thread is actually elitist. I'm not sure if you the word you want is actually "elitist." Can you explain more about what you mean? Or like others have suggested, point us towards posts that particularly show it?

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 6:15pm by idiggory
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#5 Sep 14 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Since all the regulars are too diplomatic to do it, I will; this thread is dumb and/or stupid. I don't often feel the need to post because the mage forum is so well maintained by the regulars with up to date information. Looking back at all the threads in 2010 I see only 2 or 3 that have been rated down below decent, and this is one of them. A quick glance at the other class forums and you will see numerous defaults and sub-defaults on the first page alone. The only group more forgiving than mages are the priests.

Quote:
my main point: the game...is slowly squeezing out casual players such as myself because of the inherant snobbery it creates via the reward system


Why come to the mage forum and make a thread called Elitism and Mages to gripe about this? If you are feeling some frustration, which is what your post is mainly about, it has to do with the folks on your server. Try a transfer?
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#6 Sep 14 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Default
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Thanks for replying.

Of course this thread is "dumb@ stupid" Catpredator because it doesn't fit into the catergories you 'regulars' specify, and insist upon. Which was kinda my point! My post was marked decent, before the powers to be defaulted it.

As I understand it is an open Forum for Mage related questions/queries.

Im not griping at all, my opinion is that there is now an inherent 'elitism' creeping into this mage Forum that prevents newbies like me posting questions. I have not noticed a similar attitude on other Forums. I have raised this issue because I am entitled to.

As an example you quite often give advice on gemming, for head slots and as I understand it, the consensus is that for a head item the general rule is to use a Chaotic Skyflare in the Meta slot. Yet when I have checked out your Mage characters following your advice, you quite often do not get the 3% crit bonus because you have slotted purely Red +23 sp. Skyflare requires 2 blue gems to activate bonus.

On frost spec in 5 mans/Icc 10/Voa 10 I crit on average every 2 frostbolts for an average 11k, 12k, that is an extra 330 damage, or 150 damage each spell, (it could be higher or lower depending on crit rate)I have not included Deep freeze crits etc which improves my crit rate. My point being you do not follow your own advice. 2 red gems +23 sp = 46+ damage per spell, you are losing 100 + damage per spell because you have not activated the + crit bonus, by using two blue gems. Excuse the simple format but I am not a number cruncher.

The main consensus on here is that mages have a 'divine' right to top or be near the top of Dps charts in raids. Over the course of a Voa/Icc raid 100+ per spell lost is a considerable ammount.

I dont want to be told my gemming is "crap" If I ask for advice, I want to know what are the best gems and why. I also expect 'consistancy' in any replies, as I am sure other 'newbies' do too.

The regulars have kinda killed my point, however my point is still valid.







.
#7 Sep 14 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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Who are you referring to that doesn't follow their own advice? I figure most people are intelligent enough to understand how to read the requirements for a meta gem when both putting it in and reading it on their helm. That and the fact that it is said multiple times what types of gems go into what color slots and in what situations to skip said socket bonuses (for example, after the first two blue slots are filled if the bonus is less than +7sp then it isn't worth matching as arcane, for fire this is different, although I will wait to get a new piece of gear before I spend 100g on a 2dps increase).
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#8 Sep 14 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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My guess is you were rated down for making a stupid post. My judgment has nothing to do with elitism. I just know a truly stupid post when I see one.

This mage forum is not elitist by any reasonable standard. The regular posters continue to be friendly and welcoming to new posters, and I've seldom seen any real flame wars here.

In other news, WoW continues to be the most casual-friendly MMO that I've ever seen or heard of.

That being said, if you go on a hunt for evidence of elitism in any active game forum or any MMO, I'm sure you can find it. Why exactly are you looking so hard?
#9koolkarmauk, Posted: Sep 14 2010 at 4:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thanks again, I have clearly stated my point. It was a general point and not specific to any individual, I stand by that point!
#10 Sep 14 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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A: If you're a sock, just admit it dude.

B: Who doesn't follow their own advice? You realise that 2 Spirit + Spell Power gems will give you the meta bonus, right?
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#11 Sep 14 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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This subforum has been pretty dead lately, because everything's been all mathed out in the past, and pretty much any answer you need is in one of the threads here, many of them started by "newbies" who received very polite and helpful advice from the regulars and gurus here. And, actually, I've noticed that, on the internet and the game, mages are one of the most helpful classes of folks. I think I've run into mayyybe 2 mages in the 2.5 yrs I've been playing who were elitist, and that's saying a lot considering how many of them I've talked to. I remember one of my first posts on these forums, asking for help with my gear. It was in the main WoW forum, but several good mages answered me very helpfully. I was wearing an agi ring and didn't get one "omg noob" post. One of them even sent me a PM and gave me a list of where to get upgrades. So I don't know where you're seeing elitism. Which is probably why you're getting 'this thread is dumb' responses. They should've been more polite about it though, and just said, "you're delusional." :)
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#12 Sep 14 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
Most of the posts here were very diplomatic actually, and for anyone to say that Anobix is patronizing is just ludicrous. As Jay admitted, he's pretty much the only person here who sometimes comes off as elitist or rude. It looks like the OP is just hyper sensitive to me.
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#13 Sep 14 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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koolkarmauk wrote:
Thanks again, I have clearly stated my point. It was a general point and not specific to any individual, I stand by that point!

The response was negative and patronzing as expected and I have no intention of replying/responding further. Eg " I figure most people are intelligent enough to... etc etc..." Is it any wonder 'people' for fear of appearing 'stupid' dont ask!

Newbies very very rarely post in here. It is not currently a newbie friendly forum.

A hard core of four or five regs dominate this forum and attempt to intellectualize all and everything that is written. That in itself is self-explanatory.

Elitism@ Mages!


Thanks for trolling, for my last response to you:

Wow, if my post makes me elitist then I'm sure you have never browsed a forum like EJ, the mmo-champion mage section, or even the oboards, they are all far more harsh on new/not-knowledgeable posters than here. If my post expecting people to be able to READ A GEM DESCRIPTION that is stated in multiple places then they have more to worry about then a single gemming mistake.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 9:20pm by Anobix
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#14 Sep 14 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm really not a rude person, it's just the arthritis makes me cranky when I type. Or something.
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#15 Sep 15 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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koolkarmauk wrote:
Has anyone else noticed this?

No, I haven't noticed it, and I read these boards fairly often, actually. At least every few days. This class board really hasn't veered elitist or hostile since mid-TBC when I was combatting a couple trolls. And, well, Filter was a bit elitist(though generally good natured) during vanilla.

That said, I do believe that you haven't learned a couple very important internet skills yet. The first is that you need to learn to tell the difference between when someone is actually upset or being an ***, when someone is taking an honest approach in an attempt to encourage someone else to become a better player, and when they're good-naturedly(sp?) teasing you in an effort to foster a sense of camaraderie. Tone is hard to tell across the internet when there's no visual or audio clues to give context to someone's words. Your experiences here will be colored by how you're inclined to perceive the posts of others. I highly suggest you learn to relax and take things as more good-natured than you do.

However, if there are specific instances you'd like to cite that I may have missed(I am not perfect, after all), please feel free to link to them so I can examine them. If I see a pattern to it, I'd be happy to shame the person(s) responsible into falling in line.

koolkarmauk wrote:
A hard core of four or five regs dominate this forum and attempt to intellectualize all and everything that is written. That in itself is self-explanatory.
I'll be honest, I have no idea why intellectualizing things is wrong. I mean...
Quote:
to analyze (something) intellectually or rationally.

We're mages. Our INT scores are high. We should analyze things intellectually or rationally. It's what separates us from all the grunting and **** throwing over on the warrior boards.





That was a joke. Dear Warrior friends, please do not hurt me. I have not visited your boards in months, if not years. I'm sure you're fine people and I bruise easily. My STA and STR scores are low and I cannot take your beatings. Surprisingly, though, my AGI score isn't that bad.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 12:43am by Poldaran
#16 Sep 15 2010 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

We're mages. Our INT scores are high. We should analyze things intellectually or rationally. It's what separates us from all the grunting and **** throwing over on the warrior boards.


I lol'd! :)

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#17 Sep 15 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
jaysgsl wrote:
I'm really not a rude person, it's just the arthritis makes me cranky when I type. Or something.


Arthritis? I thought it was because you had hairy moobs? (which I have seen you post about on multiple occasions, just for the record!)
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#18 Sep 15 2010 at 6:10 AM Rating: Good
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Are you kidding? If I didn't have hairy moobs to play with, I'd be Old Man with Kid on Lawn cranky.
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#19 Sep 15 2010 at 6:14 AM Rating: Good
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wow, for me, having those would make me Old Man + Kid on lawn cranky!
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#20koolkarmauk, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 12:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I did say I wouldn't reply/respond futher however... laughs! :) The forum is clearly not used to criticism from an outsider is it, judging by the emotional/hissy fit response. All the replies were personalized in some way, rather than addressing the actual point made. I obviously hit a raw nerve, which was of course the purpose of the post.
#21 Sep 15 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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First you say that people are throwing a hissy fit.
koolkarmauk wrote:
I did say I wouldn't reply/respond futher however... laughs! :) The forum is clearly not used to criticism from an outsider is it, judging by the emotional/hissy fit response. All the replies were personalized in some way, rather than addressing the actual point made. I obviously hit a raw nerve, which was of course the purpose of the post.


Then you say you have nothing to learn from my advice.
koolkarmauk wrote:
1. Poldaran Thanks I really dont need to be given lessons on internet etiquette by someone who like your resident 'Guru' does not follow his/her/your own advice. However you did at least raise a valid objective point unlike most replies.


Not a single person here has responded in a way that sounds at all angry to me. I really think you should re-read and take my advice. Or you know, don't. It really doesn't bother me. However, and let me say this clearly, if you're just here to get your jollies, I'd highly suggest you leave. You're not going to make me or anyone else here all that angry, if angry at all(with the reflective nature of that, can I call it an Ice Cream Koan? Yeah, probably not Smiley: tongue), so it's really not worth it.

However, I am still waiting for you to cite specific examples. As I've said, I haven't really noticed it myself and highly suspect you're blowing something out of proportion, but either way, I'm not going to go through the effort to comb through a ton of replies to find what you're talking about. So if you're going to make the argument, prove your case. Otherwise, let's forget it and talk more about jay's moobs.
#22 Sep 15 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
I must say I am a bit shocked at this thread. I went from noob mage to being very helpful in my guilds progression raids because I frequented this particular forum. I didn't post much but when I did Anobix and the other "Elitist Mages" were nothing but cordial and informative. I always felt this was a more non demeaning, informative, friendly, and entertaining wow forum then most others that are out there. But you will always have a minority out there that try to get a rise out of people (heals dont crit) for some demented reason.

Thanks again to everyone who contributes here, it's invaluable to a lot of us.


Schnitz
#23koolkarmauk, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 6:15 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) To the powers to be, make this a live forum, where we can reply in real time and make our points more eloquantly... And as I said..
#24koolkarmauk, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 6:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And I did reply your head is up your ar*e. Thanks.
#25koolkarmauk, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 6:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) We are all in the gutter, but some of us, stare @ the stars... oscar wilde...
#26 Sep 16 2010 at 1:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Schnitzengiggles wrote:
I must say I am a bit shocked at this thread. I went from noob mage to being very helpful in my guilds progression raids because I frequented this particular forum. I didn't post much but when I did Anobix and the other "Elitist Mages" were nothing but cordial and informative. I always felt this was a more non demeaning, informative, friendly, and entertaining wow forum then most others that are out there. But you will always have a minority out there that try to get a rise out of people (heals dont crit) for some demented reason.

Thanks again to everyone who contributes here, it's invaluable to a lot of us.


Schnitz
The truth is that this board really is filled with some of the most laid back folks around, but they're also quite playful and even silly and that sometimes leaves room for misinterpretation. It seems that about once a year someone pops in and completely misinterprets what one of the regulars means and posts one of these tangent threads about how awful and nasty we are. Every time it happens, one of us asks them to cite a few specific examples so we can either see something we've missed or show them how they've simply misunderstood the intentions of the post they're citing.

I cannot recall anyone ever actually rising to that request, they always tend to break down like gibbering idiots. It seems that this cycle repeats itself today, so without further ado, this thread is now about moobs. I'm calling it officially. Anyone who is opposed can write a 1000 word paper on why Patch 1.5 changed things for the better for mages in astounding ways*.

Or, you know, add to the discussion actually brought up in the thread's OP. Or give us another great derail topic. Or lock the thread if you happen to be an admin who drops by. You know, anything but whine like a child who didn't get their way, like the OP has decided he's going to do.

*No, I will never let patch 1.5 go. Smiley: tongue
#27 Sep 16 2010 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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I fail to see how this wasn't gamechanging:

Mages

* Mage Armor - Now has a new, unique icon.
* Fixed the range for Arcane Missiles when used against large creatures.

Now that mage armor has a unique icon we are able to better discern it against all of those other icons without needing to remember which was which?!

Also, with the number of bosses that are large and the high number of people that played arcane back in vanilla, the second part is arguably even more important than the first.
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#28 Sep 16 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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Anobix wrote:
I fail to see how this wasn't gamechanging:

Mages

* Mage Armor - Now has a new, unique icon.
* Fixed the range for Arcane Missiles when used against large creatures.

Now that mage armor has a unique icon we are able to better discern it against all of those other icons without needing to remember which was which?!

Also, with the number of bosses that are large and the high number of people that played arcane back in vanilla, the second part is arguably even more important than the first.
Casting arcane missiles back then was dumb if you picked the right faction(hint, it was the one with Salvation). Smiley: tongue

Also, the arcane missile thing isn't listed on Wowwiki.
#29 Sep 16 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
If you want the forum to change, then start posting useful information in it and help people. Become part of the community, rather then just complaining about it.
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#30 Sep 25 2010 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
If you want the forum to change, then start posting useful information in it and help people. Become part of the community, rather then just complaining about it.


Xsarus, Pold and Anobix are elitist hippies sitting on thrones of gold throwing arcane ***** at the masses when they ask for information and I demand that they give me beer.
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#31 Sep 25 2010 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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You shall have a Zima and LIKE IT!
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#32 Sep 25 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey now, you can't say 'Elitist Hippie' and not include me ;_;
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#33 Sep 27 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Anobix wrote:
You shall have a Zima and LIKE IT!
I think there's a limit to even our power over the masses, Anobix.Smiley: laugh

Also, a throne of gold sounds uncomfortable. I'd totally polymorph that into a La-Z-Boy reclining throne.
#34 Sep 27 2010 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Anobix wrote:
You shall have a Zima and LIKE IT!
I think there's a limit to even our power over the masses, Anobix.Smiley: laugh

Also, a throne of gold sounds uncomfortable. I'd totally polymorph that into a La-Z-Boy reclining throne.


I just put nice soft memory foam cushions on my golden throne. It made it a lot more comfortable. It also has a TV remote built into the arm-rest!

I still don't know how I feel about throwing arcane *****, but if it is like throwing Arcane barrages, at least it has a bit of a cooldown.
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#35 Sep 27 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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Anobix wrote:
I still don't know how I feel about throwing arcane *****, but if it is like throwing Arcane barrages, at least it has a bit of a cooldown.

I can't help but wonder if arcane ***** would benefit from the Arcane Blast. Hopefully I'll never find out.
#36 Sep 27 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure if I would rather have an arcane blast or an arcane explosion in this case.
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#37 Sep 27 2010 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
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Typical for mages, Blizz has already buffed arcane *****.

Arcane flows--renamed arcane runs--now also reduces the cooldown of arcane *****.

Improved arcane explosion now also grants a 50% chance for arcane explosion to proc arcane *****.

I hear the PTR is already full of pally qq about skid marks.

#38 Sep 28 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable with the way this thread is going. Smiley: yikes
#39 Sep 28 2010 at 6:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Poldaran wrote:
I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable with the way this thread is going.

That is exactly the type of elitist attitude that is ruining this forum!
#40 Sep 28 2010 at 6:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable with the way this thread is going. Smiley: yikes


Are you in the middle of your monthly Arcane Flows and forgot to use your Magic Absorption, Pold? Maybe if you used some Arcane Concentration you could come ahead with this!

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 8:36am by Anobix

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 8:36am by Anobix
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#41 Sep 28 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
More Mage elitism! You guys all think your arcane ***** don't stink. :p
#42 Sep 29 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Anyone who is opposed can write a 1000 word paper on why Patch 1.5 changed things for the better for mages in astounding ways*.


To be fair, it's quite a good icon.
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#43 Oct 01 2010 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
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794 posts
Pyroblast is renamed to Pyroblast!

awesome change!

discuss!
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Rejoice. For very bad things are about to happen...
bodhisattva, Defender of Justice wrote:

The first week he was all "ZOMG just happy to be here, killing bosses! I just want to raid", 2nd week there was grumbling, 3rd week he is about ready to emoplode


tigole wrote:
You won't like the ones made to your own class but you'll think the changes made to the 9 other classes are all overpowered.
#44 Oct 11 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
363 posts
oh man, I've been missing out.

If they've extended the range on Arcane *****, I'm back in before Cata.

On the subject of mage elitism... is anyone else looking forward to laughing maniacally over vent as people ask for portals again? I know I am.
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