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#1 Sep 04 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
I'm thinkin about pickin up this game pretty soon and I know right off the bat I wanna be a rogue. But I need help figuring out some things.

I need him to have:
-Stealth, but survive a fight
-Escape with little to no complications
-Poison and locking
-Few complications at PvP, PvE, and Raids
-And most of all, great at spellcaster killing.

While I don't have a problem with spell casters. I hate fighting them. So if I can be handy enough to take one down quickly in a fight I'd like to know how. I looked at some of the builds and I wasn't sure where to spend my points.
#2 Sep 04 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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That pretty much defines a rogue. We're the sneaky class that every single casting class hates. To respond directly and give evidence:

monk3ypulp wrote:
-Stealth, but survive a fight

Easy. Spec combat up until you can get Mutilate (level 50), and basically you can keep mobs stunned all the time, thus taking no damage.

monk3ypulp wrote:
-Escape with little to no complications

You can enter stealth when you're not in combat, and worse comes to worse you have Sprint to run away, Evasion to avoid taking damage, and Vanish to re-enter stealth in the middle of combat.

monk3ypulp wrote:
-Poison and locking

Well we can't lock anything, but we can unlock most stuff, and poisons are essential weapon buffs for us.

monk3ypulp wrote:
-Few complications at PvP, PvE, and Raids

We excel in all of those.

monk3ypulp wrote:
-And most of all, great at spellcaster killing

Another thing we excel at. I don't know of any other class as hated by casters as rogues.
#3 Sep 07 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
Theo already hit everything, but I just wanted to mention that I like you, OP. You actually spelled "rogue" correctly in the way it's supposed to be used, and you actually typed up your thread in a manner to show that you are very competent.

Thank you for restoring some of my faith in the english language. There's too many people out there that think proper grammar and spelling is not necessary in a forum, but it helps us figure out who would actually takes the time to make their posts easy to read and understand.

Oh, and to actually contribute to the thread... I love my rogue because of our ability to do all of the above easily. And to add to what Theo said, and in case you didn't know, Mutilate is in the Assassination tree. So once you're able to do that at 50, you'll have to respec your character.
#4 Sep 07 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
One thing to keep in mind though, is that Rogues aren't quite as powerful soloers as some other classes during your leveling/PvE goldgrinds and such. You'll kill fast and you'll have little to no downtime, but you're also much less powerful when it comes to sustained fights against overwhelming numbers or one powerful enemy. (Elites).

If you can't do enough dps during your evasion tanking and so on, you'll often find that some elites will kick your *** since you can't lock down some of them. It's hardly a problem, and not something I consider to be a bad thing with the class, but it does mean you're more dependant on gaining some friends to take on some quests.

It's a very small price to pay for one of the most hilarious classes in the game.

(Try inducing paranoia. Just do a stealth 'driveby' on a hostile spellcaster, close enough to have them hear or possibly catch a glimpse of you, then get out of their range while watching them jump around and spam every AoE they got to flush you out. When they finally relax, do it again. I once did that until the lil' gnome mage cried about it on the server forum, then ran off to his closest village. I didn't kill him until he was within spitting range of the guards' aggro range.)
#5 Sep 07 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
Which race should I choose for this class? What will really give me a good start and maintain itself throughout its career as a rogue? And what build should I go with. I'm seeing a lot of votes for assassin. What are the differences between the three?

Thanks for the compliments

Edited, Sep 7th 2010 9:34pm by monk3ypulp
#6 Sep 07 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
Any and all races. No real difference between them at this point. I personally prefer my Undead Rogue, as they get a fearbreaker. As for speccs... well, it's partly personal taste, and partly about leveling speed as everything in WoW these days is about the end-game at level 80.

Combat specc until level 50, then specc Mutilate and rape some face until level 80. Once there, specc two different types of Mutilate (dualspecc) and keep having fun. You have time. Just play the game and have some fun until you get up to higher levels. Once that's done, you'll have a much better idea what people are talking about.
#7 Sep 07 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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NorthAI the Hand wrote:
Any and all races. No real difference between them at this point. I personally prefer my Undead Rogue, as they get a fearbreaker. As for speccs... well, it's partly personal taste, and partly about leveling speed as everything in WoW these days is about the end-game at level 80.

Combat specc until level 50, then specc Mutilate and rape some face until level 80. Once there, specc two different types of Mutilate (dualspecc) and keep having fun. You have time. Just play the game and have some fun until you get up to higher levels. Once that's done, you'll have a much better idea what people are talking about.

There's actually quite a bit of difference in the races, as someone that's played most of them.

Combat actually isn't really the best leveling spec anymore, since grinding isn't the fastest way to level. Basically the way I would level would be to take Imp SS as your first two points and the rest in Sub, then at 30, respec and get Hemo and drop the points in Imp SS.

Unless you plan on playing like a feral druid (not stealthing at all and just running at mobs and killing them), Sub is generally faster, as you move faster in stealth and can kill approximately the same speed.

Not to say that leveling as combat is bad, but IMO sub is easier to 50.
#8 Sep 08 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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At this point, I would tell you to take whichever race you fancied. Even if we go into detailed theorycrafting, everything will be changing in cataclysm.

All racials are due to get an overhaul, and as such whatever we say, it will all become a lie in a few months. Racials rarely matter while leveling anyway.

Rogues are a very fun class, and I hope you enjoy your leveling experience. Just make sure you try and keep at least your weapons up to date while leveling, I believe most blue weapons are rather cheap now thanks to heirlooms.
#9 Sep 08 2010 at 4:54 AM Rating: Good
Overlord Theophany wrote:
There's actually quite a bit of difference in the races, as someone that's played most of them.


Different racials lend themselves to different situations, yes, but none of the races are sub-par compared to others. My point was simply that it won't make or break any character, and unless you go for the top 0.01% of PvPers/PvErs on the realm it simply won't matter. Pick what pleases you.

Quote:

Combat actually isn't really the best leveling spec anymore, since grinding isn't the fastest way to level. Basically the way I would level would be to take Imp SS as your first two points and the rest in Sub, then at 30, respec and get Hemo and drop the points in Imp SS.

Unless you plan on playing like a feral druid (not stealthing at all and just running at mobs and killing them), Sub is generally faster, as you move faster in stealth and can kill approximately the same speed.

Not to say that leveling as combat is bad, but IMO sub is easier to 50.


Huh, you sure? Well, I guess it's been ages since I leveled something, but I would have thought killspeed (and shorting down the amount of time between fight by tossing stealth out the window) still mattered. Ah well, outdated info. Scratch my former post then. I do remember leveling as Subtlety back in the day, simply because I liked the tree. Sucked for leveling back then, but excellent fun for PvP.
#10 Sep 08 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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I recently leveled a rogue as Sub.

Ambush opener leaves most mobs almost dead. The Stealth CD is short enough as Sub to have it ready after the mob dies. Once you get ShS it gets even nastier.
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#11 Sep 08 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Horsemouth wrote:
I recently leveled a rogue as Sub.

Ambush opener leaves most mobs almost dead. The Stealth CD is short enough as Sub to have it ready after the mob dies. Once you get ShS it gets even nastier.

Once you're able to get ShS I'd already be respeccing mutilate, TBH.
#12 Sep 08 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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My 2 pennies: Therion was my fastest WotLK leveler with a Muti-Prep PvP build (very close to this). He just tore through quest mobs. I tried a few variations of all three trees but Muti-Prep consistently provided the highest XP/hour. Next highest was a Combat/Sub thing but can't remember exactly how I spec'd that one.

In full disclosure, he was in full t6+SWP but I don't think that really had a huge effect on total XP/hour with the low amount of "kill x number of mobs" quests compared to TBC.
#13 Sep 09 2010 at 3:21 AM Rating: Good
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blue post from mmo-champion wrote:
Racial changes in Cataclysm
We're not going to overhaul the racials to the degree that we overhauled the talent trees. We are going to make a pass at them, so if you have specific concerns for Cataclysm now is a fine time to bring them up. In this case, specific feedback is more useful than "I think the way racials should work is a totally different way" designs.


So if it were me, and I think I will be leveling a new rogue, I would go with:

1) Alliance = Human
OR
2) Horde = Orc

As there 2 are currently the best races for both PvP and PvE I believe.
#14 Sep 09 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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devzzz wrote:
blue post from mmo-champion wrote:
Racial changes in Cataclysm
We're not going to overhaul the racials to the degree that we overhauled the talent trees. We are going to make a pass at them, so if you have specific concerns for Cataclysm now is a fine time to bring them up. In this case, specific feedback is more useful than "I think the way racials should work is a totally different way" designs.


So if it were me, and I think I will be leveling a new rogue, I would go with:

1) Alliance = Human
OR
2) Horde = Orc

As there 2 are currently the best races for both PvP and PvE I believe.

If you're going to PvP on Horde, Undead is still the best IMO, though Goblin is a potential contender for the crown.

WotF's 30 sec cooldown after you use a trinket is still better than anything that Orcs have.
#15 Sep 09 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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I guess wotf still has its place. But undead rogues became a heluva lot easier to beat in duels after the nerf. My priest is 1 season behind in gear and I still need to handicap myself against rogues.

Orcs get an on demand attack power buff and stun reduction. I guess ud still look better!

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 9:24pm by devzzz
#16 Sep 09 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
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devzzz wrote:
I guess wotf still has its place. But undead rogues became a heluva lot easier to beat in duels after the nerf. My priest is 1 season behind in gear and I still need to handicap myself against rogues.

Orcs get an on demand attack power buff and stun reduction. I guess ud still look better!

Yeah, every time I was Eviscerate X I get nostalgic for how awesome Undead PvP used to be.

Of course Humans always have been and probably will always be completely broken in PvP (i.e. the best race for rogues).

Years of getting sapped out of stealth by humans in arena proves this to be true.
#17 Sep 09 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Years of getting sapped out of stealth by humans in arena proves this to be true.


Reason I am going to level a human rogue.

Back in s3 I was ready to pay for race change, shame it never came... So frustrating having to run away from rogues in alliance teams. My poor NElf got sapped way too many times!

I have nothing better to do until cata hits anyway.

What do you think, human or worgen for rogue? As it stands right now.
#18 Sep 09 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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devzzz wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Years of getting sapped out of stealth by humans in arena proves this to be true.


Reason I am going to level a human rogue.

Back in s3 I was ready to pay for race change, shame it never came... So frustrating having to run away from rogues in alliance teams. My poor NElf got sapped way too many times!

I have nothing better to do until cata hits anyway.

What do you think, human or worgen for rogue? As it stands right now.

For rogue, definitely human. I've gotten into it a few times in talking about it, but here's the way I rationalize it:

1) In BGs, I can get a better Worgen racial with Engineering (150% speed for 5 secs).
2) I don't have to farm for a PvP trinket as a human. I do as a Worgen.
3) I don't look ******* stupid in my normal form.
4) Diplomacy. 'Nuff said.
5) Mace and sword expertise, while not needed for PvP (especially since PvP looks to be almost all dagger in Cata), is nice if you do PvE.

Oh, and Perception will make you lol. Seriously, the first week my rogue was a human I was astonished at how easy it was to see other rogues and druids. I was literally laughing my head off in BGs as I would see another rogue stealth since I knew I would get the opener.
#19 Sep 09 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
Yeah but... but...

...

They're humans. Ewww...
And Alliance. Ick...
#20 Sep 09 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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To be fair...
Quote:
2) I don't have to farm for a PvP trinket as a human. I do as a Worgen.

You'll need to 'farm' for something regardless. Obviously this saves you the honor, and it's more convenient, but it's not like you can now totally ignore your second trinket slot. You're forced into PvE to get a decent one. Assuming you're not going for 2 PvP (battlemaster) trinkets, but I don't even know if that's ever been viable at all.
#21 Sep 09 2010 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Mozared wrote:
To be fair...
Quote:
2) I don't have to farm for a PvP trinket as a human. I do as a Worgen.

You'll need to 'farm' for something regardless. Obviously this saves you the honor, and it's more convenient, but it's not like you can now totally ignore your second trinket slot. You're forced into PvE to get a decent one. Assuming you're not going for 2 PvP (battlemaster) trinkets, but I don't even know if that's ever been viable at all.

Eh, there are usually good trinkets available via JC or Engineering, or easy (5 man) PvE. Makes it easier to gear up for PvP.
#22 Sep 10 2010 at 1:20 AM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mozared wrote:
To be fair...
Quote:
2) I don't have to farm for a PvP trinket as a human. I do as a Worgen.

You'll need to 'farm' for something regardless. Obviously this saves you the honor, and it's more convenient, but it's not like you can now totally ignore your second trinket slot. You're forced into PvE to get a decent one. Assuming you're not going for 2 PvP (battlemaster) trinkets, but I don't even know if that's ever been viable at all.

Eh, there are usually good trinkets available via JC or Engineering, or easy (5 man) PvE. Makes it easier to gear up for PvP.


A DPS or tank trinket from badges of newnamehere would also work for either more pew pew or survivability. Assuming they have them right away of course.
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#23 Sep 10 2010 at 3:09 AM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mozared wrote:
To be fair...
Quote:
2) I don't have to farm for a PvP trinket as a human. I do as a Worgen.

You'll need to 'farm' for something regardless. Obviously this saves you the honor, and it's more convenient, but it's not like you can now totally ignore your second trinket slot. You're forced into PvE to get a decent one. Assuming you're not going for 2 PvP (battlemaster) trinkets, but I don't even know if that's ever been viable at all.

Eh, there are usually good trinkets available via JC or Engineering, or easy (5 man) PvE. Makes it easier to gear up for PvP.


A DPS or tank trinket from badges of newnamehere would also work for either more pew pew or survivability. Assuming they have them right away of course.


Rogues should NEVER use a tank trinket. Heck, unless your spec is blatantly broken and requires stamina(hello prot-healing!) nobody should ever use a tanking trinket in arena.

Rogues survive by using their cooldowns, and they are in the team because they bring damage. Using a tanking trinket just delays the inevitable, if you can't kill them then you die.

But yeah, will have to farm a second trinket if I do go human.

From what I hear on the Beta forums though, is that every man for himself is on a 3 minute timer. If PvP trinkets stay at 2 minutes, that is just going to be an ignored racial in PvP. I guess we need to wait and see for the racial updates.
#24 Sep 10 2010 at 4:32 AM Rating: Good
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devzzz wrote:
Horsemouth wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mozared wrote:
To be fair...
Quote:
2) I don't have to farm for a PvP trinket as a human. I do as a Worgen.

You'll need to 'farm' for something regardless. Obviously this saves you the honor, and it's more convenient, but it's not like you can now totally ignore your second trinket slot. You're forced into PvE to get a decent one. Assuming you're not going for 2 PvP (battlemaster) trinkets, but I don't even know if that's ever been viable at all.

Eh, there are usually good trinkets available via JC or Engineering, or easy (5 man) PvE. Makes it easier to gear up for PvP.


A DPS or tank trinket from badges of newnamehere would also work for either more pew pew or survivability. Assuming they have them right away of course.


Rogues should NEVER use a tank trinket. Heck, unless your spec is blatantly broken and requires stamina(hello prot-healing!) nobody should ever use a tanking trinket in arena.

Rogues survive by using their cooldowns, and they are in the team because they bring damage. Using a tanking trinket just delays the inevitable, if you can't kill them then you die.

But yeah, will have to farm a second trinket if I do go human.

From what I hear on the Beta forums though, is that every man for himself is on a 3 minute timer. If PvP trinkets stay at 2 minutes, that is just going to be an ignored racial in PvP. I guess we need to wait and see for the racial updates.


If your the squishy guy in a comp a CSK type trinket could work as crit reduction from resil is dead from what I have heard. But realistically double DPS trinks would be more effective. A tank trink would really only work for humans and then more pew pew would likely be better as CSK style is rare for badge trinks.

CSK is stam plus damage absorb on use. Dodge or other melee damage only proc/use would make it worthless. CSK style was what I was thinking when I said tank trink. All the other ones would have been terrible.

edit: A CSK style would be easier and more profitable to farm is my point I think. At least compared to the battlemaster style with regards to honor.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 12:34am by Horsemouth
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#25 Sep 10 2010 at 4:36 AM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
devzzz wrote:
Horsemouth wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mozared wrote:
To be fair...
Quote:
2) I don't have to farm for a PvP trinket as a human. I do as a Worgen.

You'll need to 'farm' for something regardless. Obviously this saves you the honor, and it's more convenient, but it's not like you can now totally ignore your second trinket slot. You're forced into PvE to get a decent one. Assuming you're not going for 2 PvP (battlemaster) trinkets, but I don't even know if that's ever been viable at all.

Eh, there are usually good trinkets available via JC or Engineering, or easy (5 man) PvE. Makes it easier to gear up for PvP.


A DPS or tank trinket from badges of newnamehere would also work for either more pew pew or survivability. Assuming they have them right away of course.


Rogues should NEVER use a tank trinket. Heck, unless your spec is blatantly broken and requires stamina(hello prot-healing!) nobody should ever use a tanking trinket in arena.

Rogues survive by using their cooldowns, and they are in the team because they bring damage. Using a tanking trinket just delays the inevitable, if you can't kill them then you die.

But yeah, will have to farm a second trinket if I do go human.

From what I hear on the Beta forums though, is that every man for himself is on a 3 minute timer. If PvP trinkets stay at 2 minutes, that is just going to be an ignored racial in PvP. I guess we need to wait and see for the racial updates.


If your the squishy guy in a comp a CSK type trinket could work as crit reduction from resil is dead from what I have heard. But realistically double DPS trinks would be more effective. A tank trink would really only work for humans and then more pew pew would likely be better as CSK style is rare for badge trinks.

CSK is stam plus damage absorb on use. Dodge or other melee damage only proc/use would make it worthless. CSK style was what I was thinking when I said tank trink. All the other ones would have been terrible.

edit: A CSK style would be easier and more profitable to farm is my point I think. At least compared to the battlemaster style with regards to honor.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 12:34am by Horsemouth


Yes, I get your point.

But when I am willing to reroll for better racials don't think I will be slacking with trinkets :P
#26 Sep 10 2010 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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