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#1 Aug 20 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Waaah, I can't just mash buttons indiscriminately, this SUCKS!

This is my favorite part, where he summarizes his point:
Quote:
healing is stressful/annoying due to constant mana watching and requiring "too much" thought to pick the right spell for the right situation.


Now, I'm not in the beta, so I can't comment on whether there is any merit to his complaint. Unfortunately he didn't provide any kind of scenario I could use to judge that. All he's saying is that sometimes he runs out of mana after a few pulls and has to drink! And he has to pick the right spell! And if he picks the wrong one, he runs out of mana faster!

I just have trouble drumming up sympathy for someone complaining that it requires "too much" thought to have to memorize what seven spells do and apply the right one. He says himself that health pools are much larger, so theoretically he should have more time to make that decision than he does now. Particularly given that he's a druid and should be a fairly proactive healer. There's no indication that he's running out of mana during actual fights, only that he has to drink sometimes.

Again, he may have a valid point in there; I imagine they haven't got the balance right yet, and maybe mana pools are too small, or damage is too high to give that extra split second to decide, or whatever. But everything he's saying is happening? Sounds like a really fun way to heal to me.
#2 Aug 20 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_gst-Ryh3g

It's too early to make out if Blizz has swung the balance too far to one side, even for beta testers, but I will give you this: people in the beta are idiots. Mind-numbing, jaw-dropping, stupid, unmistakable idiots. Me and my pall have run several instances, and the point the GM makes is very much valid. Everybody is pulling like this is wrath. 6 Trash mobs at a time, CC is for the weak, and AOE away. No one is moving out of the AOE, spreading out when it's needed, or any of that. They blame the healer if you wipe.

I'll also give you this; all three post-80 instances currently in the beta have already been cleared, aside from one encounter that's bugged (it's one with multiple waves of mobs spawning, but the timer is bugged and you get 30 full blown mobs in about 20 seconds). Healing is by no means impossible, it's just harder. It is probably on vanilla level. I wish I could have a test myself, but because my priest is still lost on the void of the Moonglade loading screen, I have to wait for the next beta build.
#3 Aug 20 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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It's true. I think the absolute dregs of WoW players ended up with beta access.
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#4 Aug 20 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
It's true. I think the absolute dregs of WoW players ended up with beta access.


No, there's just way more idiots than there are people with a double-digit IQ.

Also:

Zarhym wrote:
These forums should not be used like the live forums tend to be, folks. If we can't get adequate and detailed reports from players about their experiences while testing, we'll need to find more players willing to work with us in this regard.


Ooo! Ooo! Pick me!

Edited, Aug 20th 2010 4:10pm by IDrownFish
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#5 Aug 20 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mozared wrote:
people in the beta are idiots. Mind-numbing, jaw-dropping, stupid, unmistakable idiots. Me and my pall have run several instances, and the point the GM makes is very much valid. Everybody is pulling like this is wrath. 6 Trash mobs at a time, CC is for the weak, and AOE away. No one is moving out of the AOE, spreading out when it's needed, or any of that. They blame the healer if you wipe.


I suspected this was the case. Whatever your position on the "Wrath is too easy" debate overall, there's no denying that they did make several former basics of dungeon play obsolete: marking mobs, paying attention to the kill order, cc, watching threat, stopping before the boss to make sure everyone is full HP/Mana. Really anything that requires slowing down and thinking about the pull. Judging by the decisions they made, faster play was seen as more fun than thoughtful play so that's what they ran with.

Now they want people to learn to play carefully again, and it's seen as a nerf. And why wouldn't it be? People got the expectation of being AOE superheroes who can smash through content in 15 minutes from somewhere. I agree with the direction Blizzard is going, I just wish it wasn't a total 180 from where they are now.

The dungeon finder is going to be so awful for the first month or so. My husband can tank so at least I'll be sure of having someone who will mark mobs and wait for me to drink. But the DPS will be like a revolving door with people dropping group because ZOMG JUST GOGOGOGOGO. And laughing when a target is marked for CC. LOL SAP IS 4 PVP NOOB! He should do a ready check at some point, just to watch their heads explode.


Edited, Aug 20th 2010 4:33pm by teacake
#6 Aug 20 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
I have to make the concession that while a good amount of the beta testers are idiots, there's also a fair amount that aren't and that are good testers. I do get tired of people lacking the ability to do a simple search or even read the first page of topics first before starting a new thread, as well as the QQ threads.

I'll admit, from what I've read it's going to be a challenge for me to re-learn how to heal once I get my priest high enough to actually do dungeons (it's practically impossible to get groups while leveling right now). I haven't had that much experience healing in wrath, but what I did experience was that it was pretty damn easy, but still kind of fun. Most of my experiences in heroics and raids even as a dps haven't been challenging, and I welcome a return to being challenged.

Also, I want to declare my glee of whenever a blue poster reminds a QQ'er that if they can't post constructive feedback that they can get their beta privileges revoked. Smiley: grin

Edited, Aug 20th 2010 3:41pm by PigtailsOfDoom
#7 Aug 25 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
I'd like a return to the game this was four years ago. Being away from the game so long and only returning several months back the differences that probably were gradual to all of you were so marked for me. There seems so much less tactics in the game now and with such a faster play style, less player interaction. I miss rogues sneaking forward to SAP, I miss seeing mobs sheeped, I miss using the occassional mind control on a difficult room.
I've been on the mind numbing track of repeated scarlet monastary crypt runs lately. GOGOGO, grab grab grab AOE AOE AOE. Its just a different type of mind numbing grinding. So while its easy to get a group with dungeon finder its just not so fun to make the run.
#8 Aug 26 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, if there is one thing I don't want, then it's going back to the "Magister's Terrace"-style gameplay where absolutely every mob needs marked, and packs have to be killed in a strictly specific order. The burden of remebering every mob, every pack, every pull, is being placed on the tank, and those are still a rare breed.

What worries me most is that you might end up with certain classes simply no longer being welcome and votekicked from the party the moment the immunity fades just because the don't bring any CC at all or the wrong kind. Anybody who tried to do TBC instances/heroics as a Moonkin or cat, dps-warrior or shaman should understand...

It wasn't much different when Wrath was still fresh and people weren't completely outgearing the dungeons. I mean who would voluntarily bring a pally healer to fight Loken in HoL?

#9 Aug 26 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Good
Can't Shamans hex for CC?
#10 Aug 26 2010 at 3:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kanngarnix wrote:
Well, if there is one thing I don't want, then it's going back to the "Magister's Terrace"-style game play where absolutely every mob needs marked, and packs have to be killed in a strictly specific order. The burden of remembering every mob, every pack, every pull, is being placed on the tank, and those are still a rare breed.

What worries me most is that you might end up with certain classes simply no longer being welcome and vote-kicked from the party the moment the immunity fades just because the don't bring any CC at all or the wrong kind. Anybody who tried to do TBC instances/heroics as a Moonkin or cat, dps-warrior or shaman should understand...

It wasn't much different when Wrath was still fresh and people weren't completely out-gearing the dungeons. I mean who would voluntarily bring a pally healer to fight Loken in HoL?



I want MgT style of play. I miss it greatly. I would take non-CC classes when I would organize H MgT runs regularly. I knew all the pulls and could mark them fast. Having skill be a factor when over-gearing wasn't the only option was awesome and made the game more fun. Forced people to l2play and I like that aspect of the harder heroics. Heck even H SH or H Slabs I would typically only tank with a solid group of people I at least kind of knew.

Plus come Cata most can either CC or interrupt, with the interrupt option possibly shifting kill orders around. Which is actually an interesting shift in marking and control that I like.

Also I remember doing H HoL early with pally heals, it was doable if the group moved well together.

People not being stupid can make almost any comp work.
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#11 Aug 26 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Can't Shamans hex for CC?


NOW they can. Used to be different.

Quote:
People not being stupid can make almost any comp work


Random groups generally ARE stupid. It's not like anybody has to try not to be since the whole system is anonymous enough. I don't see the people who are thrown together by the dungeon tool being able to properly coordinate.

Look at all the ICC PuGs. They're perfectly capable of clearing 2 wings. Once things start to require coordination rather than just raw power all those groups seem to fail.

#12 Aug 26 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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I'd like to see a greater gulf between the regular and heroic versions of dungeons, where the heroics are absolutely unforgiving, the way they were in early BC, and the regulars are completely casual. I'd like at least one as difficult as heroic Magister's Terrace, one with fight mechanics on the final boss that make outgearing it impossible--you still have to do it all right.

The toughest heroic(s) could be keyed so that they don't show up in people's daily randoms unless people unlock them. Perhaps even relockable, for people who just can't PuG them.
#13 Aug 26 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kanngarnix wrote:
The burden of remebering every mob, every pack, every pull, is being placed on the tank, and those are still a rare breed.


I agree with this. I wish they could find a way to make dungeons less about memorizing encounters and more about knowing how to play your role and class. If I could walk into a dungeon, visually inspect the first pull, and just from that be able to say, "Okay, there are two casters, three melee, and one guy in the back who looks like he could spit fire, so here's the kill order, here's who I want cc'd, here's where everyone should stand, and if you see some fire, move out of it," I'd be a lot happier. With the current system, if you want to do a random you need to read WoW Wiki for an hour first to make sure you know all the mechanics of every instance you might get thrown into.

Even better if they could make the dungeons dynamic, so that the trash pulls aren't exactly the same every time you do it. It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to have a pack of x mobs randomly spawn from any of three types, or something. Even give the boss some different abilities that change combinations. People complain all the time about how bored they are doing the same heroics over and over again. I don't think it should be this binary switch of either you know the gimmicks, or you don't.
#14 Aug 26 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
Even better if they could make the dungeons dynamic, so that the trash pulls aren't exactly the same every time you do it. It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to have a pack of x mobs randomly spawn from any of three types, or something. Even give the boss some different abilities that change combinations. People complain all the time about how bored they are doing the same heroics over and over again. I don't think it should be this binary switch of either you know the gimmicks, or you don't.


I would love it if trash packs had some RNG flavor like the mean lady and her random friends in MgT.
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#15 Aug 27 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
one with fight mechanics on the final boss that make outgearing it impossible--you still have to do it all right.


We've had that for quite some time. It resulted in people not even going there, or later instantly quitting when the LFG tool put them there. Blizzard eventually realized that it wasn't going to work and nerfed it as well as increased the rewards, and madeit scale with people's gear... It's Oculus...

You have a quite similar situation now with Halls of Drama Reflection. Too much coordination and gear required without rewards that are any better than what you would get elsewhere. The result is people - tanks and healers - preferring to eat the 30 minute penalty rather than bother with it.

#16 Aug 27 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
Yeah, but if all heroics were like that then people would have to learn to play. Occulus was annoying on my mage, simply because I had such a hard time finding a group for it until I finally got it for the daily quest more than 6 months after hitting 80.
#17 Aug 27 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kanngarnix wrote:
Quote:
one with fight mechanics on the final boss that make outgearing it impossible--you still have to do it all right.


We've had that for quite some time. It resulted in people not even going there, or later instantly quitting when the LFG tool put them there. Blizzard eventually realized that it wasn't going to work and nerfed it as well as increased the rewards, and madeit scale with people's gear... It's Oculus...

You have a quite similar situation now with Halls of Drama Reflection. Too much coordination and gear required without rewards that are any better than what you would get elsewhere. The result is people - tanks and healers - preferring to eat the 30 minute penalty rather than bother with it.



No, not a fight where our characters don't use their abilities, like the Occulus's mounted battle. More like the Lich King encounter from HoR, sure. Or with kiting-required adds like Nethermancer Sepetherea from the Mechanar, or with void zones, or deadly pursuit, or whatever. Something that means mouth-breathers won't survive. Something about as challenging as a raid fight for five people.

Then, in addition to that, the same dungeon at lower levels of difficulty, where you can get the same rewards at a much slower rate. Gear up slowly but surely with the pot luck people you get in randoms, or go for the faster rewards with people you can count on.
#18 Aug 28 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
Kanngarnix wrote:
The burden of remebering every mob, every pack, every pull, is being placed on the tank, and those are still a rare breed.


I agree with this. I wish they could find a way to make dungeons less about memorizing encounters and more about knowing how to play your role and class. If I could walk into a dungeon, visually inspect the first pull, and just from that be able to say, "Okay, there are two casters, three melee, and one guy in the back who looks like he could spit fire, so here's the kill order, here's who I want cc'd, here's where everyone should stand, and if you see some fire, move out of it," I'd be a lot happier.


You can sort of do this now but your group has to give you time to read names. Things with mana bars and a soft/light/helpful name are healers/buff casters, mana bars and mean/aggressive/dark names are offensive casters and the bigger the melee mob the more dangerous it is. This is not a perfect guide (the little whirlwind dwarfs in H HoL are a notable exception to the size=danger level rule) but it works pretty well. If you want to get even cruder you can almost just go with casters before melee.

My related issue is that there is currently no way for a prospective healer or tank to learn their trade other than plying it. Which means that you have to figure such little tricks out for yourself or find somebody to apprentice yourself to, which is it's own barrier to entry.
#19 Aug 28 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My related issue is that there is currently no way for a prospective healer or tank to learn their trade other than plying it. Which means that you have to figure such little tricks out for yourself or find somebody to apprentice yourself to, which is it's own barrier to entry.

This is a problem that's barely fixable, though. Blizzard is already implementing a lot of raid encounter-like quests to make the jump to raiding easier (simple quest bosses that you don't just DPS down, but have specific tactics), but even then - what kind of healer/tanking content would you like to see outside of instances that plays similar to instances?
#20 Aug 31 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Well, if there is one thing I don't want, then it's going back to the "Magister's Terrace"-style gameplay where absolutely every mob needs marked, and packs have to be killed in a strictly specific order. The burden of remebering every mob, every pack, every pull, is being placed on the tank, and those are still a rare breed.


Tanks are leaders. They are pressing forward, controlling the pace, and the direction of the group. I don't think it's too much to ask of us that we learn the pulls. As was stated, many times you can infer what class a particular enemy might be by looking at it or reading it's name. Of course it will make using the random dungeon finder painful, simply because you never know what you're getting in a tank.



Quote:
My related issue is that there is currently no way for a prospective healer or tank to learn their trade other than plying it. Which means that you have to figure such little tricks out for yourself or find somebody to apprentice yourself to, which is it's own barrier to entry.


It's just called a learning curve. Before the dungeon finder emerged there was a need to communicate with the rest of your group and pass this knowledge along to new players in order to complete the instance. This was partly because players knew that if they left their group, they would have to wait a significant amount of time to get a new group, and partially because the dungeons (pre-wrath) were generally harder. Now, typically, it's Q up and plow through a dungeon as fast as possible without saying anything until someone rolls on something for their off-spec that you wanted for main
#21 Aug 31 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
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As much good as the cross-realm LFG feature has brought us, it also brought out the worst in players. It's not just issues about actual items and their intended use. I mean the first thing people did on my realm(s) was starting with "need"-rolls on Frozen Orbs, something that didn't disappear again until more recently. Now you have people pulling a couple packs and logging out while the rest of the party wipes. These are things that would have never happened when your instance runs were still limited to your own realm and people had to give some thought to their reputation.

The dungeon difficulty needs to match the people you're running with, and the current system simply results in places having to be dumbed down enough to make them easily manageable with a cross-realm random group. There just isn't any room for anything that requires complicated tactics and lengthy discussions and explanations of them.

In fact, you're more or less drawn into the whole thing. Look at how Halls of Reflection is being played. You have to do the alcove thing because nobody knows how to do it differently, not because it's always the best way to do it.

You see it in battlegrounds too. I always find it amusing when on one realm I'm on Alliance rushes RIGHT past Belinda's bunker in AV, while on another realm everybody goes LEFT. We're all just freaking Lemmings... Don't think, don't ask, just follow...

And no, tanks aren't automatically leaders just because they're spearheading your dungeon efforts, and neither should they be. If you expect a tank to come up with fancy marks, you might as well expect dps to sense what the tank will be doing because it's the only logical choice.

You can't even get the pure basics across in today's random groups, like not to attack until the tank has the attention of all relevant mobs. The sad reality is that you have bolts of fire and lightning already chasing you as a tank before you're even anywhere close to a pack.

I don't think that Blizzard will manage to drastically change people, even though that change would be more than necessary if you look at how things are developing about Cata.

Right now you're looking at hard-hitting mobs, tanks needing considerably more time to bring up their maximum threat, and healers being severely limited by their mana pool. I think that the efforts are fair and just, and certainly have their place.. but that's in raids, and not in 5-mans you're playing with random people.
#22 Sep 01 2010 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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Kanngarnix wrote:
Look at how Halls of Reflection is being played. You have to do the alcove thing because nobody knows how to do it differently, not because it's always the best way to do it.


The alcove is typically the worst way. Give me a group with a modicum of skill and the open room wins every time.

Kanngarnix wrote:
And no, tanks aren't automatically leaders just because they're spearheading your dungeon efforts, and neither should they be. If you expect a tank to come up with fancy marks, you might as well expect dps to sense what the tank will be doing because it's the only logical choice.


Any tank that prides them self on being a good tank will take offense to that remark. Good tanks can see a random group of mobs and have a good idea of how to mark them to make the pull smooth. Having a strong idea of how to do **** like that is what tanks where expected to do before the AoE fest of WotLK.

I learned how to tank in Deadmines and spent 60 levels refining my knowledge and used that skill extensively in tBC heroics. I miss doing it and welcome having to do it again. Tanks that don't want that are just DPS that want a shorter LFG queue and geared for said queue and having less people to fight over gear for in raids.

I tank because I enjoy having the burden of a good run on my shoulders. Knowing how to mark mobs, respond to unforeseen circumstances and make sure the healer has mana is part of that job.

I blame WotLK and the AoE/zerg everything mindset. DPS used to knew how to behave and tanks knew how to mark. Healing has only changed as now they like to DPS or AFK more as heroics and raid trash is now a joke.
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#23 Sep 02 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
I'm loving this
Zarhym
Quote:
For all intents and purposes, we don't consider it constructive feedback just because you followed the Code of Conduct and didn't call us names.


Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 9:37pm by Stallob
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