I forgot the VW damage thing so you can't drop Rupture totally.
Try either Theo's ideas or maybe using lower CP Ruptures would help burn some of the extra energy.
Also Theo, the new talents with level 80 haste and crit levels is bound to be wonky, this may be a case of that happening. As if he is muti he likely has a really high haste level and that will boost his base energy regen, that coupled with Rupt energy may just be excessive.
Or he could be doing something wrong. See I can be mean to.
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How are you (dual)speccing in Cata?Follow
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Should also be mentioned in this thread (since this is the place for all Cata goodness) that Backstab is getting a HUGE buff, either in 4.0.1 or 4.0.3.
Weapon damage is going from 150% (now) to 200%. This is up from 175% that it was on beta. Sub rogues would see 225% damage (Sinister Calling adding 25% bonus damage), which is getting close to Ambush damage.
It makes it a pretty legitimate attack, even without Puncturing Wounds.
It could also make Murderous Intent viable, if you have enough GCDs. It makes sense, since Blizzard is trying to get away from people mindlessly mashing their DPS rotation.
Edit: we could end up with this spec for PvE mutilate, in all honesty. 25 energy Backstabs at 200% weapon damage and easily 60% crit? Yeah. Sounds pretty good, honestly.
Edited, Oct 6th 2010 1:43am by Theophany
Weapon damage is going from 150% (now) to 200%. This is up from 175% that it was on beta. Sub rogues would see 225% damage (Sinister Calling adding 25% bonus damage), which is getting close to Ambush damage.
It makes it a pretty legitimate attack, even without Puncturing Wounds.
It could also make Murderous Intent viable, if you have enough GCDs. It makes sense, since Blizzard is trying to get away from people mindlessly mashing their DPS rotation.
Edit: we could end up with this spec for PvE mutilate, in all honesty. 25 energy Backstabs at 200% weapon damage and easily 60% crit? Yeah. Sounds pretty good, honestly.
Edited, Oct 6th 2010 1:43am by Theophany
ah crap, recuperate, was forgeting that. I'll retest again.
ill clip envenom a bit more rather than waiting.
ill clip envenom a bit more rather than waiting.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Should also be mentioned in this thread (since this is the place for all Cata goodness) that Backstab is getting a HUGE buff, either in 4.0.1 or 4.0.3.
Weapon damage is going from 150% (now) to 200%. This is up from 175% that it was on beta.
It makes it a pretty legitimate attack, even without Puncturing Wounds.
It could also make Murderous Intent viable, if you have enough GCDs. It makes sense, since Blizzard is trying to get away from people mindlessly mashing their DPS rotation.
It is a buff for Sub PvE DPS that makes MI work so Blizz doesn't seem foolish.
Weapon damage is going from 150% (now) to 200%. This is up from 175% that it was on beta.
It makes it a pretty legitimate attack, even without Puncturing Wounds.
It is a buff for Sub PvE DPS that makes MI work so Blizz doesn't seem foolish.
FTFY
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
MI might be a capable talent IF we have energy cap issues at 85. Like using muty when we have plenty and backstab at 35% when we have little energy [doing damage and still gathering energy despite the backstabs]. That is if the dps proves to work out. I both doubt AND think that it may work out, but we'll just see [iam more on the way of doubt BUT still, we'll see]
Edited, Oct 6th 2010 8:51am by Tenjen
Edited, Oct 6th 2010 8:51am by Tenjen
Tenjen wrote:
ah crap, recuperate, was forgeting that. I'll retest again.
ill clip envenom a bit more rather than waiting.
ill clip envenom a bit more rather than waiting.
You should be clipping Evenom anyway; it's not helping your DPS to Mutilate to go from 4 to 5 CPs.
Basically you're looking at this cycle once you get up and going: Mut, rupture, mut, envenom, mut, evenom, mut, enevenom. Refresh rupture as it wears off.
Since every mutilate build should have Ruthlessness, you should almost always get a combo point back. You might have to mutilate twice, but the energy regen should be such that it doesn't matter.
Throw Recuperates in there to take pressure off your healer in healing-intensive fights, and you're not officially the healer's best friend while dishing out ridiculous DPS.
And yeah Horse, that's about what I was thinking.
Tenjen wrote:
MI might be a capable talent IF we have energy cap issues at 85. Like using muty when we have plenty and backstab at 35% when we have little energy. That is if the dps proves to work out. I both doubt AND think that it may work out, but we'll just see [iam more on the way of doubt BUT still, we'll see]
It's not the energy issues as I see it, really the only way you'd use MI is if BS proves to be better <35% boss HP with MI.
30 energy at 200% weapon damage versus 55 for 150% and 75%?
I don't know, I guess we'll have to wait and see how the EJ math nerds work it.
I'm way too tired to do math right now.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Tenjen wrote:
MI might be a capable talent IF we have energy cap issues at 85. Like using muty when we have plenty and backstab at 35% when we have little energy. That is if the dps proves to work out. I both doubt AND think that it may work out, but we'll just see [iam more on the way of doubt BUT still, we'll see]
It's not the energy issues as I see it, really the only way you'd use MI is if BS proves to be better <35% boss HP with MI.
30 energy at 200% weapon damage versus 55 for 150% and 75%?
I don't know, I guess we'll have to wait and see how the EJ math nerds work it.
I'm way too tired to do math right now.
I'm guessing that at 85 it will have a lot to do with how energy works and will end up being a l2spreadsheet thing as different gear sets could shift the equation.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
So, I tried out mut on the PTR, and I have NO CLUE with what I'm doing lol. I don't even know if I specced correctly, because for some reason, when I try to open any of your guys' build links, it just comes up blank. Plus the fact that I don't know the "proper rotation" for mut or anything like that.
Le sigh... I think I need just a complete overhaul look at how to play a rogue as mut.
I don't like change! Combat is my friend! Stop hating! =(
(Theo, if you're able to and you still have my gmail address... and if you don't mind lol... can you please try emailing me a mut build you're looking at so I can actually see if I'm at least speccing okay? And you should totally transfer your rogue to Fenris so you can yell at me and tell me I'm a noob and L2Play, since Feyras and Teddy left me =( lol)
Le sigh... I think I need just a complete overhaul look at how to play a rogue as mut.
I don't like change! Combat is my friend! Stop hating! =(
(Theo, if you're able to and you still have my gmail address... and if you don't mind lol... can you please try emailing me a mut build you're looking at so I can actually see if I'm at least speccing okay? And you should totally transfer your rogue to Fenris so you can yell at me and tell me I'm a noob and L2Play, since Feyras and Teddy left me =( lol)
I'am sure they'll fix up combat sooner or later.
oh and problem fixed. used a new rotation, changed my gems, cutting envenom sooner and the cycle's much smoother
oh and problem fixed. used a new rotation, changed my gems, cutting envenom sooner and the cycle's much smoother
For those wondering what I've been using on PTR and beta for PvP, here you go, complete with glyphs.
Mutilate (31/0/5): not used even close to as much as the sub build, but it's good fun. Wish the Assassination mastery wasn't so lackluster.
Sub (5/0/31): I still use BS with this build, owing to me having 42% crit and BS being 325% (!) weapon damage, making it hit like a goddamn truck (6k crits on normal 80 mobs are common, where I see 4k crit on live). Hemo is only used in this build for farming when I ***** something up, though I usually go into a ShD when that happens.
Recuperate, as I've noted, completely changes how rogues play in PvP, as returning to stealth now is a huge benefit (since we can use Recuperate much like SnD), making sub an even better build than it currently is. Find Weakness is incredible for Sub builds, as it's almost more powerful than the original Overkill was for mutilate; plate becomes much easier when you can bang out a 6-7k Ambush off an opener.
Overall I'm super excited for 4.0.1 to go live.
Edit: oh, and having 3 poisons (and FoK costing 29 energy) is freaking awesome. Wound MH, crip OH, MN thrown as sub FTW.
Edited, Oct 7th 2010 7:34pm by Theophany
Mutilate (31/0/5): not used even close to as much as the sub build, but it's good fun. Wish the Assassination mastery wasn't so lackluster.
Sub (5/0/31): I still use BS with this build, owing to me having 42% crit and BS being 325% (!) weapon damage, making it hit like a goddamn truck (6k crits on normal 80 mobs are common, where I see 4k crit on live). Hemo is only used in this build for farming when I ***** something up, though I usually go into a ShD when that happens.
Recuperate, as I've noted, completely changes how rogues play in PvP, as returning to stealth now is a huge benefit (since we can use Recuperate much like SnD), making sub an even better build than it currently is. Find Weakness is incredible for Sub builds, as it's almost more powerful than the original Overkill was for mutilate; plate becomes much easier when you can bang out a 6-7k Ambush off an opener.
Overall I'm super excited for 4.0.1 to go live.
Edit: oh, and having 3 poisons (and FoK costing 29 energy) is freaking awesome. Wound MH, crip OH, MN thrown as sub FTW.
Edited, Oct 7th 2010 7:34pm by Theophany
i keep seeing stuff i missed the first read through, like
Slice and Dice now consumes combo points on any nearby target.
Shiv now also dispells an Enrage effect on the target.
as of the patch, cant wait to test everything on the PTR in a guild raid setting <3
Slice and Dice now consumes combo points on any nearby target.
Shiv now also dispells an Enrage effect on the target.
as of the patch, cant wait to test everything on the PTR in a guild raid setting <3
Tenjen wrote:
i keep seeing stuff i missed the first read through, like
Slice and Dice now consumes combo points on any nearby target.
Shiv now also dispells an Enrage effect on the target.
as of the patch, cant wait to test everything on the PTR in a guild raid setting <3
Slice and Dice now consumes combo points on any nearby target.
Shiv now also dispells an Enrage effect on the target.
as of the patch, cant wait to test everything on the PTR in a guild raid setting <3
You can also use Recuperate when you don't have a target as long as there are combo points active. It's really useful for switching in arena.
I've been hitting 10-12k ambushes and 13-15k evis crits post-patch. I'm also sitting at 44% crit in PvP gear, meaning that it's impossible for my ambushes to not crit. Oh, and I hit 6-7k BS crits as well.
I frankly love the new talent system.
oh ya i remember them saying self buff abilities for rogues wont need a target [as they previously did] in cata. I guess this is the system they implemented to do just that.
sorry for double post.
just a little bit of info that most may already know.
Elusiveness [night elf passive] gives 5% stealth speed.
just a little bit of info that most may already know.
Elusiveness [night elf passive] gives 5% stealth speed.
So I thought I'd put up the PvP build I've been using to great effect, having used it for nearly a week now.
3/2/31
The #1 thing is that this build hits HARD. I'm getting 8k ambushes on resil, 5-6k BSs on resil.
Lack of Waylay still bothers me, but mostly due to me ganking people off mounts in WG or BGs. Glyph of Crippling Poison solves this, as even with dispels up, Crip procs nearly instantly after it gets dispelled (assuming 1.4 or 1.5 speed OH).
Another thing: mongoose is officially the best weapon enchant again, regardless of what spec, and regardless of PvE/PvP. That haste increases energy regen and Agi:AP is now 1:2 (similar to hunters) means that it's an incredible enchant, and procs much more often than Berserking.
Imp Recuperate is a MUST in EVERY PvP build. EVERY SINGLE ONE. 5% HP every 3 secs in addition to 6% reduced damage while it's up is absolutely priceless and by far the best talent we can take in PvP for our splash talents (talents that overflow into other trees). No joke, when I first specced into it and tried it in a BG, I could have jumped up and danced, I was so excited. It gives you that much survivability.
At 85, this will absolutely, 100% be the best solo PvP spec out there.
That said, variations do exist, and they're pretty gear-dependent. If you have massive amounts of haste, reforge/re-gem haste (i.e. agi/haste red, haste yellow, hit blue for damage socket bonuses), spec this and have a blast.
Some things NOT to do: reforge mastery. It's a complete waste for PvP. You'd need to be in a 15 person raid with crits going off literally every second for it to be worthwhile so you could spam Evis and keeping up Rupture. Without the crits, you'd be worthless.
Reforge crit or hit as needed. I'm personally up to 45% crit after reforging away hit so I'm down to 5.1%.
For poisons, I tend to use Wound/Crip/Mind-Numbing on MH/OH/thrown. Because procs are so frequent from FoK and Deadly Throw, if a mage or warlock gets range on you, feel free to toss a Deadly Throw at him to slow down his casting. Obviously, you're going DP/WP/MN for mutilate.
Glyphs that are absolute MUSTS for Sub: BS, ShD, Garrote (must for ALL PvP specs), Sprint, Crip (if you don't pick up Waylay).
That's pretty much what I've found thus far. Oh! And use my trick to regen some health in stealth: Premed then sap, use CS but don't hit them so you have 5 combo points, stealth and Recuperate for ~50% of your HP back. It also works if they're spamming AoE: premed, recuperate, repeat (as premed is on 15 sec cooldown).
Remember, slow/fast for pretty much every spec (since DWS isn't available to mut or sub anymore).
3/2/31
The #1 thing is that this build hits HARD. I'm getting 8k ambushes on resil, 5-6k BSs on resil.
Lack of Waylay still bothers me, but mostly due to me ganking people off mounts in WG or BGs. Glyph of Crippling Poison solves this, as even with dispels up, Crip procs nearly instantly after it gets dispelled (assuming 1.4 or 1.5 speed OH).
Another thing: mongoose is officially the best weapon enchant again, regardless of what spec, and regardless of PvE/PvP. That haste increases energy regen and Agi:AP is now 1:2 (similar to hunters) means that it's an incredible enchant, and procs much more often than Berserking.
Imp Recuperate is a MUST in EVERY PvP build. EVERY SINGLE ONE. 5% HP every 3 secs in addition to 6% reduced damage while it's up is absolutely priceless and by far the best talent we can take in PvP for our splash talents (talents that overflow into other trees). No joke, when I first specced into it and tried it in a BG, I could have jumped up and danced, I was so excited. It gives you that much survivability.
At 85, this will absolutely, 100% be the best solo PvP spec out there.
That said, variations do exist, and they're pretty gear-dependent. If you have massive amounts of haste, reforge/re-gem haste (i.e. agi/haste red, haste yellow, hit blue for damage socket bonuses), spec this and have a blast.
Some things NOT to do: reforge mastery. It's a complete waste for PvP. You'd need to be in a 15 person raid with crits going off literally every second for it to be worthwhile so you could spam Evis and keeping up Rupture. Without the crits, you'd be worthless.
Reforge crit or hit as needed. I'm personally up to 45% crit after reforging away hit so I'm down to 5.1%.
For poisons, I tend to use Wound/Crip/Mind-Numbing on MH/OH/thrown. Because procs are so frequent from FoK and Deadly Throw, if a mage or warlock gets range on you, feel free to toss a Deadly Throw at him to slow down his casting. Obviously, you're going DP/WP/MN for mutilate.
Glyphs that are absolute MUSTS for Sub: BS, ShD, Garrote (must for ALL PvP specs), Sprint, Crip (if you don't pick up Waylay).
That's pretty much what I've found thus far. Oh! And use my trick to regen some health in stealth: Premed then sap, use CS but don't hit them so you have 5 combo points, stealth and Recuperate for ~50% of your HP back. It also works if they're spamming AoE: premed, recuperate, repeat (as premed is on 15 sec cooldown).
Remember, slow/fast for pretty much every spec (since DWS isn't available to mut or sub anymore).
Just three things;
1) I'm sceptic about Imp. Recuperate. Sure, it looks good, but Quickening, aside from the movement bonus, also gives +20% healing. I can't imagine this not being better in any PvP environment where you roll with a healer. And then I'm not even touching the issue of whether the +20% heal affects Recuperate or not. If it does, it won't make a huge difference (with my current health pool, quickening would add 156 healing per tick and Imp. Recup 520), but definitely swings some favour back towards Quickening.
2. How have you been using Hemo in this spec? I haven't done extensive PvP yet, but didn't feel the need to pick up the talent at all - with the removal of the +30% damage to my Rupture, and especially with the damage currently going around, I don't really find it worth to use Hemo just to get a Rupture off. I suppose it helps Garrote, but as it is now I've stuck with saving that one point for Initiative.
3. When you talk about the Premed>CS>Recup>Restealth trick, you're talking about a blinded/sapped enemy, am I right? I recall this trick from the vanilla days, but it hasn't been worth it in a long time - I guess now it may finally be so again.
1) I'm sceptic about Imp. Recuperate. Sure, it looks good, but Quickening, aside from the movement bonus, also gives +20% healing. I can't imagine this not being better in any PvP environment where you roll with a healer. And then I'm not even touching the issue of whether the +20% heal affects Recuperate or not. If it does, it won't make a huge difference (with my current health pool, quickening would add 156 healing per tick and Imp. Recup 520), but definitely swings some favour back towards Quickening.
2. How have you been using Hemo in this spec? I haven't done extensive PvP yet, but didn't feel the need to pick up the talent at all - with the removal of the +30% damage to my Rupture, and especially with the damage currently going around, I don't really find it worth to use Hemo just to get a Rupture off. I suppose it helps Garrote, but as it is now I've stuck with saving that one point for Initiative.
3. When you talk about the Premed>CS>Recup>Restealth trick, you're talking about a blinded/sapped enemy, am I right? I recall this trick from the vanilla days, but it hasn't been worth it in a long time - I guess now it may finally be so again.
Mozared wrote:
Just three things;
1) I'm sceptic about Imp. Recuperate. Sure, it looks good, but Quickening, aside from the movement bonus, also gives +20% healing. I can't imagine this not being better in any PvP environment where you roll with a healer. And then I'm not even touching the issue of whether the +20% heal affects Recuperate or not. If it does, it won't make a huge difference (with my current health pool, quickening would add 156 healing per tick and Imp. Recup 520), but definitely swings some favour back towards Quickening.
2. How have you been using Hemo in this spec? I haven't done extensive PvP yet, but didn't feel the need to pick up the talent at all - with the removal of the +30% damage to my Rupture, and especially with the damage currently going around, I don't really find it worth to use Hemo just to get a Rupture off. I suppose it helps Garrote, but as it is now I've stuck with saving that one point for Initiative.
3. When you talk about the Premed>CS>Recup>Restealth trick, you're talking about a blinded/sapped enemy, am I right? I recall this trick from the vanilla days, but it hasn't been worth it in a long time - I guess now it may finally be so again.
1) I'm sceptic about Imp. Recuperate. Sure, it looks good, but Quickening, aside from the movement bonus, also gives +20% healing. I can't imagine this not being better in any PvP environment where you roll with a healer. And then I'm not even touching the issue of whether the +20% heal affects Recuperate or not. If it does, it won't make a huge difference (with my current health pool, quickening would add 156 healing per tick and Imp. Recup 520), but definitely swings some favour back towards Quickening.
2. How have you been using Hemo in this spec? I haven't done extensive PvP yet, but didn't feel the need to pick up the talent at all - with the removal of the +30% damage to my Rupture, and especially with the damage currently going around, I don't really find it worth to use Hemo just to get a Rupture off. I suppose it helps Garrote, but as it is now I've stuck with saving that one point for Initiative.
3. When you talk about the Premed>CS>Recup>Restealth trick, you're talking about a blinded/sapped enemy, am I right? I recall this trick from the vanilla days, but it hasn't been worth it in a long time - I guess now it may finally be so again.
1. Imp Recuperate is more for 6% damage reduction. That's a significant amount, especially if you're near the resilience cap. 15% run speed and 20% healing is not better than the damage reduction in addition to another 2% base HP per tick when you're going to be keeping it up 24/7.
2. I've been using it occasionally when I'm snared and I can't get behind someone. It's worth the point investment for that situational use.
3. Yeah, talking about a sapped enemy. It was used a lot in TBC and vanilla. Definitely worth it now.
Alright, you make a fair point - especially with Tuskarrs now available to engineers as well, Quickening does lose a lot of its worth. Looks like I'm off to respec. Bye bye 14% Eviscerate damage =(
Trust me, I wish you were right in this case. It would be really nice to have a 15% speed increase instead of 7-8%, whatever it is with Tuskarr's.
Don't worry though, CdG will be the first points you add in Cata.
And i just had a thought; if this build is this insane right now, what'll happen in Cata when we get Puncturing Wounds? Of course we won't have the crit% I have currently (45%), but still...
Don't worry though, CdG will be the first points you add in Cata.
And i just had a thought; if this build is this insane right now, what'll happen in Cata when we get Puncturing Wounds? Of course we won't have the crit% I have currently (45%), but still...
Cata should be awesome, really. I've been playing around with subt and assa PvP today, and I can safely say I still like subt better. It just feels like I'm everywhere. Poof, there's my rocket boots. Where'd I go? I shadowstepped you! Oh, right, Sprint. And there's a Vanish! It almost looks like I'm using Killing Spree sometimes, and winning a fight by just messing with my opponents head is something I enjoy a lot more than breaking CC at the right moment and bursting him down. With the damage fixed, Subt may become the top PvP spec again - though on the other hand, I guess there's less room for utility and more room for damage in Cata-style PvP.
Mozared wrote:
Cata should be awesome, really. I've been playing around with subt and assa PvP today, and I can safely say I still like subt better. It just feels like I'm everywhere. Poof, there's my rocket boots. Where'd I go? I shadowstepped you! Oh, right, Sprint. And there's a Vanish! It almost looks like I'm using Killing Spree sometimes, and winning a fight by just messing with my opponents head is something I enjoy a lot more than breaking CC at the right moment and bursting him down. With the damage fixed, Subt may become the top PvP spec again - though on the other hand, I guess there's less room for utility and more room for damage in Cata-style PvP.
Frankly with Wrathful weapons, Sub damage is bordering on completely ridiculous. I've seen BSs for 9.7k in BGs, and ambushes for 13k.
Obviously I'm pretty well-geared, but it's still absolutely ridiculous.
I'm still debating about grinding out a Wrathful Slicer to go combat, but frankly I might not since Sub damage is so insane. I also have Seven-Fingered Claws to fall back on, I guess.
It's strange I'm actually surprised by that - I'm doing damage competitive enough for BGs (4K BS crits on targets loaded with resi) and I'm using ilevel 200 daggers and hateful gear. I was going to grind myself a new dagger, but I might just go for the gear first - like this (with the constant crashes 'n all), the dagger will take me until Cata to get.
A funny little thing I found among the (three) rogue patch notes over at MMO-Champion.
OH SNAP
Quote:
Subtlety
Mastery: Executioner now also increases the effectiveness of Slice and Dice and Recuperate.
Mastery: Executioner now also increases the effectiveness of Slice and Dice and Recuperate.
OH SNAP
Mozared wrote:
A funny little thing I found among the (three) rogue patch notes over at MMO-Champion.
OH SNAP
Quote:
Subtlety
Mastery: Executioner now also increases the effectiveness of Slice and Dice and Recuperate.
Mastery: Executioner now also increases the effectiveness of Slice and Dice and Recuperate.
OH SNAP
Saw that and started laughing. It'll never stay.
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