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How are you (dual)speccing in Cata?Follow

#52 Sep 03 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
Wi kan haz Hemo glif?

We can,
blue folks wrote:
# Hemorrhage - Your Hemorrhage ability also causes the target to bleed, dealing 40% of the direct strike's damage over 24 sec.(Source)


Spec still has too many Ambush talents for PvE. But this does help I, depending on the bleed how the bleed works it could make Hemo non-dagger a serious variant on the spec.

edit:

Really though Ambush talents need to be less as the ability is too situational for PvE to have that large of a talent point investment. Ten talent points buffing an ability the spec opens with and can use a few times a minute via SD is excessive and hurts the PvE aspect of Sub.

edit2:

SD + Ambush will also suffer from CD surplus and not enough time to Evis/Rupt with said CPs with SD as Sub is a low energy spec. Even with Recup giving energy, energy will be a limiting factor during SD. Six seconds to use an expensive ability that will cause energy starvation and CP capping is quite painful as a DPS cool down.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 12:31am by Horsemouth

The main problem is that up until halfway through WotLK, Blizzard was trying to make Sub into a PvP spec, and make it viable.

The only problem was that they made Mutilate too viable by allowing the 41/5/25 spec choice and all the variations therein.

Now that Blizzard has a 31 point talent already made, they don't want to completely scrap it and make Sub a viable DPS build, because let's face it, they're lazy when it comes to talents.

Shadowdance has been terrible since they introduced it.

I've specced into it twice. Once when it was first introduced and your bars didn't change, and once after they made it so that your bars can change in ShD.

Both times I was thoroughly disappointed in it, even when I had a kick-*** dagger to use with it (Furious MH).

Frankly, what I want to see as a 31 point talent is this:

Shadowlolz:

You are a master of the shadows, and thus all of your direct physical damage is converted to shadow damage.

It would make warriors and paladins much easier, and would provide a DPS buff to both PvE and PvP (as damage mitigation is much lower for spells, as armor doesn't have any effect).
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#53 Sep 04 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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I too would like to spend a single talent point that provides 100% armor penetration on all my attacks.
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#54 Sep 04 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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It's an active ability on a cooldown, obviously. If it were permanent, it'd suck balls. Paladins would pop aura mastery and we'd suddenly suck against priests. Warlock Felhounds would become unkillable.
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#55 Sep 04 2010 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Mozared wrote:
It's an active ability on a cooldown, obviously. If it were permanent, it'd suck balls. Paladins would pop aura mastery and we'd suddenly suck against priests. Warlock Felhounds would become unkillable.

260 resistance for 10 seconds wouldn't kill us.

Also, it doesn't have to be Shadow damage. ****, make it holy so it can't be resisted. Space squids came from some alternate dimension giving rogues the ability to imbue their weapons with holy light and ergo we cut through any armor.

Whatever it is, to make Sub viable, you need to give the tree burst on par with mutilate against plate. It doesn't have it at the moment.
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#56 Sep 04 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
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260 resistance for 10 seconds wouldn't kill us.

It could be game-breaking in high level arena. Aside from that though, it would just ***** up a ton of things if we had permanent shadow damage, mainly in regards with people having resistance.

Your point is valid though. I'd personally like either a ~10 second buff (even though it would still suck against paladins, which is a bit of an odd balance) or an 'effects your next 3 abilities' kind of things.
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#57 Sep 06 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Hey fellas!

Long time no speak, hope you all are well.

Anyway, I have 2 gladiator friends that are interested in doing RMP with me in cataclysm, so it is time to bring out my **** old NElf (maybe race change Worgen) rogue for some serious 3v3.

I have been playing my priest for pvp purposes during wotlk, however I have never finished a season due to.. well. wotlk being $%$% £"$£" $%%^. You know...

I have been checking the changes, and mutilate seems rather good for RMP, due to the increased spell damage on poisoned targets.

However...

I am really interested in sub non-daggers!

I was at my best with my rogue during s3 when shadowstep was king. I never got going as mutilate, and love the mobility that shadowstep offers. I have leveled 2-3 warriors during wotlk and just love warbringer/juggernaut!

So, what do you guys think? What would work well with the setup(RMP)?

Stay pretty!
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#58 Sep 06 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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To be fair, Ambush hits really frickin' hard. But I do see where you are coming from.

[EDIT]

Okay, so this is kinda like 5 posts late. >.<

Stupid second page.

Edited, Sep 6th 2010 1:51pm by idiggory
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#59 Sep 06 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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devzzz, I still think Mutilate will be king in Cata. Sprint being on a 1 min timer will help significantly.
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#60 Sep 06 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks Theo.

What is this based on? The improved spell damage? The better burst? The easier rotation?

If it is just damage output, I am pretty sure numbers have not been passed through yet. I am hoping that they work some more on hemo dpe as the calculations earlier on in the thread didn't seem great.

Ambush working with non-daggers and the energy regen from a health regen ability is getting my hopes up for sub. Since recuperate will be a part of our rotation, surviving as sub seems easier.

I don't know, I just listed my thoughts. What were your thoughts for pvp rogue?
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#61 Sep 06 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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devzzz wrote:
Thanks Theo.

What is this based on? The improved spell damage? The better burst? The easier rotation?

If it is just damage output, I am pretty sure numbers have not been passed through yet. I am hoping that they work some more on hemo dpe as the calculations earlier on in the thread didn't seem great.

Ambush working with non-daggers and the energy regen from a health regen ability is getting my hopes up for sub. Since recuperate will be a part of our rotation, surviving as sub seems easier.

I don't know, I just listed my thoughts. What were your thoughts for pvp rogue?

Kind of depends on how things go, but:

Vendetta is huge burst damage. 20% is a LOT.

Mutilate has Envenom, and assuming that engineering remains where it is (hand rockets, etc), we have one of the biggest finishers in the game (CB evis/envenom macro with hand rockets and global sapper charge can do ridiculous amounts).

Survival is less of an issue for mutilate; basically think of how mutilate was in TBC and add a moderately powerful self-hot in.

That said, sub may be the new PvP build just based on how much mobility and damage it'll be able to put up. Prep has proved to pretty much be "the" talent in PvP ever since S2, so who knows what'll happen.
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#62 Sep 07 2010 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
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Planning on going Alliance, just because we like Worgen.

I always got kited a lot as mutilate. I don't know, maybe it was just a L2Play issue due to me not really having PvP'd much as mutilate, and AR/Prep then ShS being the 2 specs I used when I did PvP properly.

The 1 minute timer on sprint will help, true, but that is still once every minute.

Vandetta does look very nice, but the long cooldown kinda bothers me. Although saying that, a mage water elemental is on a 3 minute cooldown. They do get frozen preparation though. I watched some of the latest arena tournament, and it was obvious from the chat that people would keep their CC's ready for rogues dance. For example, when facing against the lock/rogue/rshaman team the lock would always keep death coil ready so that the rogue would get screwed. Now, with dance being on a shorter cooldown than death coil, I can't see them death coiling twice in a row. Although the 30 seconds use time for Vandetta makes it a bit harder to cc the full duration of it.

I don't know, it is mainly wait and see. If the numbers don't work out, if they change a talent again, whatever bliz do can change the balance instantly.

I just really hope the difference isn't very noticeable so that I can go with one or the other without worrying about gimping my setup.

Already been told that I will have to go with whichever spec is stronger if there is a clear cut winner for PvP though :sadface:

PS: Anybody know if the weapon list on MMO-Champ is the complete list? The only non-dagger melee one-hander has strength on it. Can't really go non-dagger if it isn't itemised :P Highly doubt it though. That would ***** combat rogues, as well as hunters and shammies I believe. I guess we have to wait for the updated loot tables. Not like I would step into arena with blue weapons...or would I? :P
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#63 Sep 07 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Although saying that, a mage water elemental is on a 3 minute cooldown.

Yeah, except that water elementals are now permapets.

That said, killing them might become something of a decent strategy, as the mage (as of yet) can't boost their survivability, they die relatively easy and it does take the mage 3 minutes to resummon him. Or the cooldowns don't match up and he'll resummon him instantly and then get a 3 minute CD time, but whatever.
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#64 Sep 07 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Mozared wrote:
Quote:
Although saying that, a mage water elemental is on a 3 minute cooldown.

Yeah, except that water elementals are now permapets.

That said, killing them might become something of a decent strategy, as the mage (as of yet) can't boost their survivability, they die relatively easy and it does take the mage 3 minutes to resummon him. Or the cooldowns don't match up and he'll resummon him instantly and then get a 3 minute CD time, but whatever.


If they still get globaled I don't see many teams ignoring the water elemental. Will have to wait and see how that one pans out as well I guess.

I think if Cataclysm isn't coming in a months time or so I might be gearing up a bit and doing some arenas to get rid of the rust.

I will be getting a brand new PC soon, although I really want to wait to get a 6xxx series ati card. Anybody got a spare gfx card I can use until the 6xxx series comes out? :)
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#65 Sep 08 2010 at 5:16 AM Rating: Good
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A very underestimated factor of cata pvp: all the talents and meta gems that lower cc duration are going away. You'll have more time during a blind or a kidney shot to do cool stuff like kick water elementals or get behind pillars and restealth.

I know i'm insane, but i'm gonna try combat pvp when i hit 85 (after my pally). It'll be just like S2, running around wearing enormous dragonstrike maces and doing huge ad. rush burst.

Haters gonna hate.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 7:17am by ArtemisEnteri
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#66 Sep 08 2010 at 5:32 AM Rating: Good
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ArtemisEnteri wrote:
A very underestimated factor of cata pvp: all the talents and meta gems that lower cc duration are going away. You'll have more time during a blind or a kidney shot to do cool stuff like kick water elementals or get behind pillars and restealth.

I know i'm insane, but i'm gonna try combat pvp when i hit 85 (after my pally). It'll be just like S2, running around wearing enormous dragonstrike maces and doing huge ad. rush burst.

Haters gonna hate.

Edited, Sep 8th 2010 7:17am by ArtemisEnteri


The lower cc durations being removed is a nice step. Definitely helps rogues as well.

There is one big reason I don't see combat being good in PvP. Our burst (killing spree) is multi target. And the more targets arund the less damage per target. Although Blade Flurry may be able to counter that somewhat.

Adrenaline rush is also the longest cooldown we have currently for our main pvp burst talents. It does get reduced after using finishing moves, but still it is rather a long cooldown.

I certainly don't see combat being better than Assasination or Subtlety but we will have to wait and see I guess.

But you know what's most important, as long as you have fun playing that spec you should try it :)
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#67 Sep 08 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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1) Blade Flurry is also a multi-target burst CD in Cata. With an energy snare built into its burst to boot, which is weird.

2) Rated BGs, arena will no longer be the only end game PvP. Everyone seems to be focusing on arena, I'm way more excited for rated BGs.
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#68 Sep 08 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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This begs the question.

Why are you more interested in rated bgs?

I myself was never a big fan of bgs. It will be interesting to see how they will offer the rewards.

As far as I can see, the rewards will be exclusive, so people won't have to choose between arena and bg, but will be able to do both.

From my past experience, whichever spec was dominant in arena usually worked better in bgs than the rest. Anybody feel any different?
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#69 Sep 08 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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devzzz wrote:
This begs the question.

Why are you more interested in rated bgs?

I myself was never a big fan of bgs. It will be interesting to see how they will offer the rewards.

As far as I can see, the rewards will be exclusive, so people won't have to choose between arena and bg, but will be able to do both.

From my past experience, whichever spec was dominant in arena usually worked better in bgs than the rest. Anybody feel any different?

I like BGs much more than arena.

Here's hoping that you can still do BGs without having your rating change, much as you can do skirmish matches in arena.
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#70 Sep 08 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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I would imagine that you could still do skirmish BGs as you need a BGs team for rated ones if I recall. Not sure as haven't seen much feedback on level cap PvP in Cata. The cap was only put to 85 a week ago so hopeful this kind of stuff will be forthcoming soon.

The expansive objective driven nature of BGs will give more wiggle room for specs I think as there will be less of a need to worry about counter comps and things of that nature. Arena specs will drive BG specs for sure but I can see combat flourishing in BGs far more than arenas.

Of course they could royally ***** up rated BGs and make them terrible but I'm hoping that is not the case as I also greatly prefer BGs to arena.
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#71 Sep 09 2010 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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I'm pretty sure non-rated BGs will exist as well, for those of us that aren't dedicated PvPers but generally enjoy it. So they might not implement skirmishes.
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#72 Sep 09 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
I'm pretty sure non-rated BGs will exist as well, for those of us that aren't dedicated PvPers but generally enjoy it. So they might not implement skirmishes.


A non rated BG is a skirmish BG.
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#73 Sep 10 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, it would be dumb if we couldn't farm gear while not worrying about our bg ranking.

Some new tasty titles, I am planning on getting at least one of each, High Warlord Cluts(priest) and Grand Marshal Devz(Rogue). BG teams also requiring you to be in the top .5% means.............only 1 team a season? Guess it will be hard to get the gladiator equivalent title.

It seems that the way they are going with sub is that they want Backstab to be your primary hitter. That means I will be most likely going assassination.

I was so hyped for sub as well :sadface:
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#74 Sep 10 2010 at 4:58 AM Rating: Good
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devzzz wrote:
It seems that the way they are going with sub is that they want Backstab to be your primary hitter. That means I will be most likely going assassination.

I was so hyped for sub as well :sadface:


Also Ambush is propped up and you can use it a few time one per minute via SD. ShS only bosting Amb/Gar damage makes it worse. Sub being so Ambush happy is retarded.

If it stays as such welcome to yet another xpac with a dead Sub spec. Only even worse as Prep will be laughing at us buried beneath worthless talents.
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#75 Sep 10 2010 at 5:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Horsemouth wrote:
devzzz wrote:
It seems that the way they are going with sub is that they want Backstab to be your primary hitter. That means I will be most likely going assassination.

I was so hyped for sub as well :sadface:


Also Ambush is propped up and you can use it a few time one per minute via SD. ShS only bosting Amb/Gar damage makes it worse. Sub being so Ambush happy is retarded.

If it stays as such welcome to yet another xpac with a dead Sub spec. Only even worse as Prep will be laughing at us buried beneath worthless talents.


I seriously don't get the goals of the tree designs.

Assassination is meant to be... well... assassination.

Yet, what do they want us to use? Garotte and Rupture. That's like, a dot, not an assassination effect.

They want to move away from stunlocking, I understand that, but forcing us to use bleeds so that we can get energy back as assassination? That doesn't make sense. I don't know, still too early to blame maybe, but I fear that the specs are actually becoming more solidified every day. They made no passes onto Assi in the last build, but changed things around in Sub.
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#76 Sep 10 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
A non rated BG is a skirmish BG.


Except that, even if you enter as a team, there's no guarantee that you'll be facing another one. So it sucks as a skirmish equivalent, since you can easily be facing a bunch of baddies who don't even call incs and fight on roads.
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