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How are you (dual)speccing in Cata?Follow

#27 Aug 14 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Oh wow, Vendetta sounds awesome, especially if it can't be dispelled. Let's hope you can CloS it off, though.
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#28 Aug 14 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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The way it looks like, I doubt it. A) That would kind of ruin the point of the ability (lets you see through stealth... rogues are the main class you'd want to be using this on) and B) the debuff looks exactly the same as, say, Weakened Soul. I doubt anything can remove it.

I'll check once I get a chance, though.

But for something different; slap me silly, but you don't even want to know how effective bleeds are as subtlety. I just learned my mastery (apparently they were implemented last night) which is a 23% damage on my finishers right now, and get this; mobs have 30-34K health. Hemo is hitting for 1400. A 5 pt Eviscerate crit is around 10K. A Shadowstepped+Hemo'd Garotte is going for 4500 damage a tick. Rupture is on about 4000. Two Garotte ticks do more damage than a 5pt Evis does on average. I am literally killing mobs in 6-7 seconds with a bleed rotation right now. Using Eviscerate over Rupture and Cheap Shot + Backstab over Garotte kills slower than using DoTs.

That was unexpected >.>
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#29 Aug 14 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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Mozared wrote:
A Shadowstepped+Hemo'd Garotte is going for 4500 damage a tick. Rupture is on about 4000. Two Garotte ticks do more damage than a 5pt Evis does on average. I am literally killing mobs in 6-7 seconds with a bleed rotation right now. Using Eviscerate over Rupture and Cheap Shot + Backstab over Garotte kills slower than using DoTs.

That was unexpected >.>

That has to be a bug.
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#30 Aug 14 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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It might've been a case of both my trinkets proccing; still though, sub bleeds are effective beyond what we've seen. Now that I'm closing in on 82 I've gotten more chance to play around with both specs.

Assassination is actually quite fun. In the average 'grinding session' you waste all your combo points on putting up S&D and Recuperate on the first mob. Then you kill the rest of the mobs with a CS>Mutilate>Rupture>MutiX2>Envenom. The energy regeneration Venomous Wounds gives matches up so that you leave the fight on around ~50 energy, just short of Mutilate, and fill up just as you pull the new mob. That, the additional damage the talent gives, and the fact that you won't have 5 Deadly Poison up yet after a CS>Muti opening seems to make Rupture worth it.

Subtlety is... haywire all over the place. The main pro of the spec in Vashj'ir is Shadowstep as it really shortens your pulling time. As for a 'rotation'... bleeds and Evises tend to be of similar speed now. I've found that alternating between ShS>Premed>Garotte>Hemo>Rupture and CS>BS>BS>Evis/Rupture tends to work well as you'll find yourself waiting for the ShS and Premed cooldowns to constantly go with the first. I've got a feeling that Garotte+Hemo+Rupture is a little bit faster than going BS>BS>Evis, but the difference between using or not using bleeds really isn't more than one or two seconds at most. Unless you're using Garotte without ShS - then your kill time is noticeably longer.

All in all Subt isn't a lot slower or faster than Assassination, it's just... unrefined. As long as you don't waste combo points on Recuperate or S&D it seems to matter little what you actually do, you'll still kill stuff fast. Because of this, I do prefer Assassination for pure grinding right now - everything just times up so nicely that you can keep on going with your permanent Recuperate and S&D up.

I've also unlocked Redirect, but haven't had a chance to learn it yet. It doesn't seem like a particularly interesting ability though - just makes our lives a little bit easier.
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#31 Aug 14 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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Rogue
Assassination
Cold Blood no increases the critical strike chance of your next non-periodic offensive ability by 100%.

Combat
Sprint now lasts 8 sec and has a 1 min cooldown. (Old - 15 sec, 3 min cooldown)
Lightning Reflexes now increases your attack speed by 2/4/6%.

Subtlety
Tricks of the Trade's transferred threat is no longer permanent and will fade after 30 sec.
Blind now costs 15 Energy, down from 30 Energy. 15 yards range, up from 10 yards.
Sap now costs 35 Energy, down from 65 Energy. 10 yards range, up from 5 yards.
Enveloping Shadows is now a Tier 3 talent, down from Tier 4.
Dirty Tricks is gone.
Energetic Recovery *New* - Empowers your Recuperate ability, causing its periodic effect to also restore 4/8/12 Energy.

Underlined the big changes.

Sick stuff. Still liking both Mut and Sub, and hating Combat.

And I have no idea what Cold Blood is supposed to change. Unless you're retarded, you don't use it op Rupture and Garrote as it is.
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#32 Aug 14 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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As far as I know, it doesn't even *trigger* on Rupture/Garotte in the first place.

The Dirty Tricks change is pretty awesome. Gives Assa more room to breathe in PvP and allows Subt to pick up Energetic Recovery, which as it looks will be a kick *** talent.

Will have to puzzle with builds again...
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#33 Aug 15 2010 at 3:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Does the Hemo debuff now apply even if you pop it after you apply a bleed? As based on current feral mechanics that would not be the case.

I want to know and am to lazy to check.
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#34 Aug 15 2010 at 5:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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That has to be a bug


It sucks, but there is no point discussing how much damage stuff does on beta because of all the bugs. Some abilities like aimed shot and templar's verdict are hitting for 30k+ because crit modifiers apply multiple times to random abilities.

edit: Also wanna say i predicted the sprint change ages ago, mobility abilities should all be short duration on a moderate to low cooldowns. Like frost nova and blink.



Edited, Aug 15th 2010 7:54am by ArtemisEnteri
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#35 Aug 15 2010 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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Does the Hemo debuff now apply even if you pop it after you apply a bleed? As based on current feral mechanics that would not be the case.

I want to know and am to lazy to check.

I **** well hope it does, else A) my rotation is horrible and B) Rupture could deal EVEN MORE damage. Imagine it ticking for 5200 a tick? =/

It would be easier to find out if the **** floating combat texts actually worked, but I'll take a look for you on a target dummy.

Edit: It seems to. My Rupture damage varies all over the place depending on whether my trinkets proc or Hemo is applied. I took two screenshots, but like a proper beta they help jack all as they show the wrong abilities. Effing combatlog. I can tell you that I had an unbuffed Rupture ticking for ~1100, then applied Hemo and had the same Rupture ticking for ~1600. How exactly the damage is calculated beats me though.

Edited, Aug 15th 2010 4:15pm by Mozared
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#36 Aug 15 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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ArtemisEnteri wrote:
Also wanna say i predicted the sprint change ages ago, mobility abilities should all be short duration on a moderate to low cooldowns. Like frost nova and blink.

I think all Rogues that did PvP talked about this constantly during S2-S4 and agreed that Sprint needed to be on a 1 min cooldown to promote mobility.

It was either that or make ShS a baseline ability. Since they're in no hurry to give Rogues something that powerful, this is the next best thing.

Certainly makes Combat a more powerful spec in PvP (with Imp Sprint).
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#37 Aug 15 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Another little something I've noticed; the effect from Venomous Wounds stacks with itself. If you get a Rupture up on two poisoned mobs, your energy regeneration skyrockets to the point where it feels like you've got Adrenaline Rush activated. It's not something you'll use daily, but it can be **** neat when you've accidently aggro'd 4/5 mobs and don't want to Vanish (or have it on cooldown).
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#38 Aug 15 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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I'm assuming that the wowtal VW is an incorrect (or level 1) interpretation of the talent in regards to the nature damage?

1 damage isn't much. Smiley: grin
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#39 Aug 15 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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No, not quite =P

My tooltip currently states 1065 damage, though I'll need to check in combat if that's before or after buffs 'n all.

Hang on...

Edit: Hmmm, 2K damage in the field. Most of that you can probably thank my +40% poison damage mastery for.

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 12:14am by Mozared
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#40 Aug 15 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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Sounds excellent for PvE. ****, I may just play straight mutilate all of Cata and just respec to Sub from time to time.

Edit: actually if rupture is as powerful as you suggest and we're using envenom anyway, might as well put up rupture and get some added poison damage and some energy.

Edited, Aug 15th 2010 5:36pm by Theophany
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#41 Aug 15 2010 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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Even as Assa, Rupture is pretty **** powerful. The damage alone seems pretty decent, but it's really the energy regeneration that does it. I can't test DPS well without meters, but putting Rupture up before S&D seems to make my rotation such a huge deal smoother I find it hard to still believe that doing it vice versa will crank out more deeps (as it currently does, iirc).

I will say that Assassination seems pretty fun and most of all refined, which is what Sub is missing. My only quirk with it is that Vendetta triggers the GCD, which messes with your rotation when you need that extra boost of damage. I find it annoying in the same fashion that I find Pain Suppression's GCD annoying.

Where they're heading with Sub, I'm not sure, but they seem to be aiming for a newer-ish rotation where you keep up Recuperate for the energy regeneration and then rely on HaT combos to make your Eviscerates refresh Rupture. At the moment, keeping up S&D as well is pretty much impossible. Regardless, the spec does need work.

Level 82 to 83 takes AGES, but I'm nearly there now; about 6 blocks left. Will let you know how Combat Readiness works when I get it.
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#42 Aug 16 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Just wanted to touch on some new stuff I haven't mentioned yet.

Combo points, as you may or may not know by now, no longer fade when your target dies. They stay there. This is a huge improvement because A) it makes Redirect usefull while leveling or fighting adds (assuming the corpses don't despawn) and B) combo points are rarely wasted - this new system allows you to easily put up a new S&D or Recuperate.

Which brings me to my next item: Recuperate. Before I got in the beta I saw it as 'a finisher you probably won't ever use, safe for when leveling or such', but it seems now that I was very wrong. This isn't just another pretty ability Blizzard added that's so underpowered it's mostly useless. Right from the get-go, Recuperate has been a pretty internal feature of my class. It heals for so much and it is so easy to keep up that I often really find myself wondering whether I should use those CPs for damage, stun, or Recuperate. It's a pretty tough choice.

Which leads me to my last item: in the last beta build, mobs have been boosted into NPC heaven. I'm not sure about the exact formula anymore, but it's something like "a mob's damage and HP doubles for every level". Aka level 82 mobs at level 82 are pretty fightable, but level 83 mobs will kill you if you don't perfect a stunlock. Either way you'll need to eat after every fight, even with Recuperate up - which even adds to Recuperate's value. My gear is still far from perfect (I'm nearly 83 and on 40K hp, I've seen people on easily 45K upon dinging 83), so it should balance out a little more, but the way it is now, questing and grinding is actually pretty **** hard. Mobs cast spells that do 23K damage - if you don't interrupt them, you're dead. In return, kill quests seem slightly toned down - I've yet to kill more than 8 mobs for a single quest. I've not seen any "kill 10/12/16 of X" around.

Obviously it's still something completely new and they've asked for feedback on it, so we don't know what will make it to live, but as it is, just leveling to 85 is a pretty bad challenge, Recuperate is pretty **** awesome and survivability is absolute king over any sort of DPS. They're not joking when they say Cataclysm will change the world (of warcraft) as we know it.
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#43 Aug 30 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
Theo, for some reason I haven't been able to pull up the builds you had linked. And yes, I even tried it on my not-so-lame laptop in different internet browsers.

Anywho, do we happen to have anyone in Beta that is decent at theorycrafting and whatnot that can give us an idea on how the builds are looking and what would be good "cookie cutter" specs? I'm planning on getting my rogue set to be levelled first during the expac so gemming my gear correctly and whatnot would probably be the best to get to cap quickly.
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#44 Aug 30 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Anywho, do we happen to have anyone in Beta that is decent at theorycrafting and whatnot that can give us an idea on how the builds are looking and what would be good "cookie cutter" specs? I'm planning on getting my rogue set to be levelled first during the expac so gemming my gear correctly and whatnot would probably be the best to get to cap quickly.

To be fair, there isn't a lot of theorycrafting that's worth doing yet as stuff is constantly changing. The way it currently works though, Assassination is the most effective leveling build, at least when starting from 10 - simply because it has Deadly Momentum.

For 80-85, you'll probably want an Assassination build as well, as Combat nets you too much damage, as stupid as it sounds. Like I said earlier, mobs level 83 and up hit for obscene amounts, and you cope with that as Assassination by throwing the ocassional stun and bursting the mob down. If you were playing Combat, you'd be taking too much extra hits. The style is too warrior-like for it to currently work in 1v1s with mobs.

'Cookie cutters' are at the moment straightforward, because pretty much every talent is actually 'good', which means that for 'optimal damage' you simply grab all the talents that say they increase damage. Only theorycrafting I'm interested in here is subtlety daggers vs subtlety swords/maces, but that precisely is still a moot point as subtlety simply just doesn't work yet.

Next patch we'll be getting addons, which should mean recount - I can provide some numbers then.
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#45 Aug 30 2010 at 9:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mozared wrote:
Only theorycrafting I'm interested in here is subtlety daggers vs subtlety swords/maces, but that precisely is still a moot point as subtlety simply just doesn't work yet.


Sub has better DPE with daggers as of Aug 11th when I did math. Will probably depend on the ratio of white vs yellow DPS which will be sweet to find out.

So when do they allow addons again and have you tried using WoL to get numbers?
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#46 Aug 30 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
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So basically, I'm thinking three builds for PvP with how the new trees are set up.

One is mutilate, which is pretty standard, and looks pretty ****.

Two is Sub daggers, which looks like it has potential, but I hate Backstab.

Three is **** awesome omgomgomg Sub, which looks like it will be lollercoasters full of fun. Obviously not using daggers, and the fact that Ambush doesn't need daggers anymore obviously makes this a far more attractive build than it is currently.

And yes, Opportunity is an obvious filler talent (though it does help Ambush damage, which will help burst), but there's nothing else to take.

Blackjack looks like an incredibly **** talent, btw, especially in PvP. The potential for abuse is ridiculous if the debuff still applies even if you purposefully take Sap off by applying it to another person.

70% reduced damage for 8 secs is A LOT. A LOT.
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#47 Aug 31 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Sub has better DPE with daggers as of Aug 11th when I did math. Will probably depend on the ratio of white vs yellow DPS which will be sweet to find out.

Aye, I got that much, but the problem is that when I tried it, Serrated Blades didn't guarantee a Rupture refresh on an Eviscerate. By Backstabbing, it took longer for you to be able to Eviscerate again than if you just used Hemo, which meant your Rupture was dropping pretty much all the time - and I bet that's a bigger DPS loss than using BS instead of Hemo.

To be fair though, they did fix Serrated Blades in the meantime, so I'll have to try the rotation again. I've just been quiet on the beta so far because I've done most of the stuff there is to see right now - I tried all the revamped noob zones, levelled up to 83 and have seen all post-80 zones currently out.

Also, Theo's builds are pretty much spot on, basically confirming what I said; try making a bad Assassination PvP spec - if your brain is located inside your skull and not your ******, it'll be impossible (no offense meant to Theo, I realize how it sounds =P). The only thing that really matters is your choice of subspec. The only thing that might be up for discussion in those builds is whether you grab Blood Spatter in the subtlety-based builds. The thing is that burst gets nerfed, and just keeping up pressure will become more powerful. 30% to your Rupture is a pretty decent number for this purpose. This combined with the fact that Energetic Recovery might end up being sucky in PvP (as Recuperate will be harder to keep up) means there might be an option there.
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#48 Aug 31 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Combat
Combat Readiness is now trained at level 81. Down from 83.
Fan of Knives now deals 80% of weapon damage, up from 60%.
Kick now costs 15 energy, down from 25 energy.

Subtlety
Redirect is now trained at level 83. Up from 81.
Cloak of Shadows now increases your chance to resist all spells by 200%, up from 100%.

New changes in the latest beta build.

CloS change is kinda making me scratch my head, but hey, if they want to make us immune to spells for the duration of CloS, I'm all for it.

FoK change is awesome, and I couldn't care less about Combat Readiness/Redirect.
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#49 Aug 31 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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The CloS change is so that it will always work even if people have SpPen to lower resistances. Still is pretty cool.

I like cheaper Kicks, will be easier to keep 15 in the tank to interrupt than 25.
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#50 Aug 31 2010 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
The CloS change is so that it will always work even if people have SpPen to lower resistances. Still is pretty cool.

I like cheaper Kicks, will be easier to keep 15 in the tank to interrupt than 25.

Meh, basically makes it how it is right now for PvP rogues (gloves reduce kick energy cost by 10).

Yes, being completely immune will be nice, rather than still getting feared through CloS.
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#51 Sep 02 2010 at 4:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wi kan haz Hemo glif?

We can,
blue folks wrote:
# Hemorrhage - Your Hemorrhage ability also causes the target to bleed, dealing 40% of the direct strike's damage over 24 sec.(Source)


Spec still has too many Ambush talents for PvE. But this does help I, depending on the bleed how the bleed works it could make Hemo non-dagger a serious variant on the spec.

edit:

Really though Ambush talents need to be less as the ability is too situational for PvE to have that large of a talent point investment. Ten talent points buffing an ability the spec opens with and can use a few times a minute via SD is excessive and hurts the PvE aspect of Sub.

edit2:

SD + Ambush will also suffer from CD surplus and not enough time to Evis/Rupt with said CPs with SD as Sub is a low energy spec. Even with Recup giving energy, energy will be a limiting factor during SD. Six seconds to use an expensive ability that will cause energy starvation and CP capping is quite painful as a DPS cool down.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 12:31am by Horsemouth
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