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How are you (dual)speccing in Cata?Follow

#1 Aug 10 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Generating some discussion among the rogues on how you all feel you'll be speccing in Cata.

I don't really feel like touching daggers again, having spent this entire expac with them (having never done so before).

I'll be speccing Sub for PvP, and Combat for PvE. Both builds look like a lot of fun, and I don't really care how min/max-ish my PvP build is, I'm just gonna play a build I like for once (well, that's what I'm doing now).
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#2 Aug 11 2010 at 4:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll be combat and HAT both PvE.

Combat will be close to what you have. Maybe Ruth over RS, as would work better with low CP SnD, but will wait for math to play out as it is early in beta and numbers aren't there yet especially with regards to haste and energy regen. Kick talent over Recup one for sure, mainly for 5 mans, depending on how the healing changes play out. The point in Quickening is a floater and I would likely throw that into which ever of Ruth or RS instead.

HAT would be dagger build, as Backstab gets all the love and Hemo gets none as far as CP generation goes. Last point in Precision or PW most likely depending on hit needs. ES is nice and all but I like the lower CDs from Elusiveness and Cheat Death is fun.

Would really like it if they made Backstab not need dagger or at least do something so Sub PvE can easily be a non-dagger build, like adding Hemo to Opportunity. Seems like that could open Sub up to being a free weapon build.

edit: Want to math out DPE for Backstab vs Hemo but tired, plus Backstab just seems like will be higher looking at talents and % weapon damage stuff.

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 1:02am by Horsemouth
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#3 Aug 11 2010 at 6:08 AM Rating: Excellent
As I can't look at either of your builds at the moment because work is lame and I can't see them, I'll most likely stay with combat for Cata as well. I've been combat since level 10 and will be that way for a long time.

I did try out mutilate but it's just not for me. While I do like to burstiness of it, I missed my multi-target abilities from combat (i.e. BF and KS), so I switched back.

I'll check out the talent trees once I get home from failing my final tonight and see what exactly I want to aim towards.

And to be honest, I don't know what they look like now or what the changes in everything are. I haven't really been following Beta testers stuff.
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#4 Aug 11 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
HAT would be dagger build, as Backstab gets all the love and Hemo gets none as far as CP generation goes. Last point in Precision or PW most likely depending on hit needs. ES is nice and all but I like the lower CDs from Elusiveness and Cheat Death is fun.

Would really like it if they made Backstab not need dagger or at least do something so Sub PvE can easily be a non-dagger build, like adding Hemo to Opportunity. Seems like that could open Sub up to being a free weapon build.

edit: Want to math out DPE for Backstab vs Hemo but tired, plus Backstab just seems like will be higher looking at talents and % weapon damage stuff.

At the current DPE levels, I'm fairly confident that Hemo beats BS pretty handily.

Not completely confident on that though, so don't quote me.
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#5 Aug 11 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Still no combat at all for me. I'll stick to a combination of Subtlety PvP, Subtlety PvE (assuming it works or at least is fun to play) or Assassination PvP.

I'm actually going to give Subt PvE a whirl once I get some more time in the beta. No damage meters I guess, but I want to see and figure out what I can about the spec.
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#6 Aug 11 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Horsemouth wrote:
HAT would be dagger build, as Backstab gets all the love and Hemo gets none as far as CP generation goes. Last point in Precision or PW most likely depending on hit needs. ES is nice and all but I like the lower CDs from Elusiveness and Cheat Death is fun.

Would really like it if they made Backstab not need dagger or at least do something so Sub PvE can easily be a non-dagger build, like adding Hemo to Opportunity. Seems like that could open Sub up to being a free weapon build.

edit: Want to math out DPE for Backstab vs Hemo but tired, plus Backstab just seems like will be higher looking at talents and % weapon damage stuff.

At the current DPE levels, I'm fairly confident that Hemo beats BS pretty handily.

Not completely confident on that though, so don't quote me.


Math incoming.

AP = 4260 Using my rogue's unbuffed AP. 
 
 
Base Weapon Damage     Damage Range     Average       Damage 
------------------------------------------------------------ 
Bloodsipper            259-481 WD      259+481/2      370 WD 
Frost Giant's Cleaver  374-695 WD      372+695/2      535 WD 
 
 
Normalized Weapon Damage      Formula                 Damage 
------------------------------------------------------------ 
Bloodsipper                 370+((1.7*4260)/14)    887.29 WD 
Frost Giant's Cleaver       535+((2.4*4260)/14)   1264.79 WD


So we have weapon damage now so we can figure out DPE. Not going to deal with crit as Backstab has a boost to crit damage so it will obviously gain as crit rates grow. Assuming we will not be able to approach the crit cap until very late in Cata if at all so none of the crit from PW will be wasted.

Untalented DPE 
--------------------------------------------------  
    Backstab                                   DPE         
    ----------------------------------------------   
    ((1.75*887.29)+518)/60                   34.51           
     
    FGC Hemo                                   DPE      
    ----------------------------------------------  
    (1.1*1264.79)/35                         39.75          
     
    Bloodsipper Hemo                           DPE 
    ----------------------------------------------  
    (1.595*887.29)/35                        40.44 
 


So with with no talents dagger Hemo wins, then non-dagger Hemo followed by Backstab. Let's add in talents, which is only Opportunity for more Backstab damage and SftS which reduces the energy costs of the attacks, Hemo by 6 and Backstab by 20.

Talented DPE 
--------------------------------------------------  
    Backstab                                   DPE         
    ----------------------------------------------   
    ((1.75*887.29)+518)*1.3/40             67.2996           
     
    FGC Hemo                                   DPE      
    ----------------------------------------------  
    (1.1*1264.79)/29                         47.97          
     
    Bloodsipper Hemo                           DPE 
    ----------------------------------------------  
    (1.595*887.29)/29                        48.80  


Backstab really pulls away in terms of PvE efficiency when fully talented. The full third energy reduction is huge compared to the 17% cost reduction of Hemo. It is what really makes Hemo not as viable.

Especially since to not take BS talents would hard to do as there are no real options outside of skipping PW as the rest boost Ambush as well. It is next to impossible to avoid taking the Ambush talents do to the way the tree is organized.

I think Sub is going to have some changes coming. Them saying less DPS because of mobility is retarded. As any movement really messes up the SD part of the rotation as well as normal Backstab since both are positional. Sub would be at a huge DPS loss for a fight like Kolo even more so than feral as Ambush is a decent chunk of the damage

If I did math wrong any where or what not let me know and I'll correct stuff.
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#7 Aug 11 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nice math, even if it proves me wrong. Smiley: grin
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#8 Aug 11 2010 at 11:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Nice math, even if it proves me wrong. Smiley: grin


This kinder Theo is beginning to grow on me.
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#9 Aug 12 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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This might be a stupid idea, but I was under the impression (or at least the hope) that you use both of them? Or at least as in; even if you go Backstab, you still use the ocassional Hemo for 30% bleed damage. Replacing one Backstab for one Hemo for +30% damage to at least two of your Ruptures seems worth it, doesn't it?

I really need to play my rogue again. I guess getting in the beta was a good start =D
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#10 Aug 12 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Mozared wrote:
This might be a stupid idea, but I was under the impression (or at least the hope) that you use both of them? Or at least as in; even if you go Backstab, you still use the ocassional Hemo for 30% bleed damage. Replacing one Backstab for one Hemo for +30% damage to at least two of your Ruptures seems worth it, doesn't it?

I really need to play my rogue again. I guess getting in the beta was a good start =D

Right now, hemo still boosts damage as well as bleeds. Not sure about Cata since I'm posting from my phone.

Ideally you'll use both, like cat Druids do mangle and claw (rip? No idea what their BS variant is).

That's most of the reason why I dislike shadowdance specs. I hate positional attacks.
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#11 Aug 12 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mozared wrote:
This might be a stupid idea, but I was under the impression (or at least the hope) that you use both of them? Or at least as in; even if you go Backstab, you still use the ocassional Hemo for 30% bleed damage. Replacing one Backstab for one Hemo for +30% damage to at least two of your Ruptures seems worth it, doesn't it?

I really need to play my rogue again. I guess getting in the beta was a good start =D

Right now, hemo still boosts damage as well as bleeds. Not sure about Cata since I'm posting from my phone.

Ideally you'll use both, like cat Druids do mangle and claw (rip? No idea what their BS variant is).

That's most of the reason why I dislike shadowdance specs. I hate positional attacks.


Backstab is Shred, Hemo is Mangle. Hemo is exactly the same as Mangle as of right now, does less damage than your main CP builder but applies a crucial debuff for the the bulk of your damage.

No one wants to be the Mangle ***** but someone has to as no one raids as Arms these days. Technically in Wrath right now if you always raided with an Arms warrior you wouldn't even need to spec into Mangle at all as you would never use it while raiding. Assuming you never had to go bear as Mangle is used then still for DPS and threat.

Mangle used to be terrible for DPS when the debuff was on the short timer, it waaaaay better now that it lasts a minute. Better as in I don't use it as often. Hemo is shaping up to be the same in Cata. Except I'm fairly certain the difference in DPE for Mangle and Shred are a lot closer than Hemo and Backstab.
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#12 Aug 12 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Well, Shred (and maybe Mangle too) both give two CPs on crits. IMO there needs to be that component to BS at least. Seal Fate is all well and good for Mut, but BS has fallen way off since we can't get double CPs for the amount of energy.

For example:
Mutilate, 55 energy (glyphed), 2 CPs, 3 CPs crit
SS, 40 energy, 1 CP, 50% chance to get a second CP with it (glyph)
Hemo, 30 energy (talented), 1 CP
BS, 40 energy (talented), 1 CP, must be behind target

Both Hemo and BS are fairly lackluster, but Hemo can be spammed, while BS needs not only a positional requirement, but also takes more energy.

I get that they want BS to remain a positional attack, but why not make a glyph of BS similar to SS? We take 5 talents that are higher up than mutilate and 3 talents in tier 2 of Assassination for BS to still be complete crap compared to mutilate?

Eh, I don't really think that Blizzard has really done much thinking or testing on how Sub works. I like some parts of Sub, but the spec just doesn't feel as good as Mutilate (as well thought-out, as well as the synergy etc of the spec). Most of that may be because of Shadowdance. I hate that talent.
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#13 Aug 12 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Well, Shred (and maybe Mangle too) both give two CPs on crits. IMO there needs to be that component to BS at least. Seal Fate is all well and good for Mut, but BS has fallen way off since we can't get double CPs for the amount of energy.

For example:
Mutilate, 55 energy (glyphed), 2 CPs, 3 CPs crit
SS, 40 energy, 1 CP, 50% chance to get a second CP with it (glyph)
Hemo, 30 energy (talented), 1 CP edit: Hemo is talented to 29 which is weird
BS, 40 energy (talented), 1 CP, must be behind target

Both Hemo and BS are fairly lackluster, but Hemo can be spammed, while BS needs not only a positional requirement, but also takes more energy.

I get that they want BS to remain a positional attack, but why not make a glyph of BS similar to SS? We take 5 talents that are higher up than mutilate and 3 talents in tier 2 of Assassination for BS to still be complete crap compared to mutilate?

Eh, I don't really think that Blizzard has really done much thinking or testing on how Sub works. I like some parts of Sub, but the spec just doesn't feel as good as Mutilate (as well thought-out, as well as the synergy etc of the spec). Most of that may be because of Shadowdance. I hate that talent.


I agree wholeheartedly.

For feral all non-Bleed based attacks give 2 CPs on a crit and we have a 30 sec CD that gives 60 energy and a AP boost, the energy part is talented. The positional aspect of Shred, which also only costs 2 more energy when talented by the way if I remember correctly, is compensated by 2 strong bleeds and Mangle not being as far behind as Backstab in both damage and DPE. Plus Shred, being the Backstab analog, benefits from having a bleed up. Feral has strong synergy, Sub does not.

Hemo and Backstab need to be closer in DPE as otherwise a fight like Kolo or anything with lots of adds would rape Sub's damage output.

Shadowdance needs some serious work to actually be a good PvE talent as it makes the spec suffer greatly when you can't just stand there and hit buttons. Any movement at all kills Sub DPS, more so if in a SD phase. Plus the whole Ambush->Evis back and forth in SD is awkward.

I like the idea of HAT making up for the specs poor energy regen but if everything else is clunky the spec will remain a PvP spec and a novelty in PvE.
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#14 Aug 12 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Well, Shred (and maybe Mangle too) both give two CPs on crits. IMO there needs to be that component to BS at least. Seal Fate is all well and good for Mut, but BS has fallen way off since we can't get double CPs for the amount of energy.

For example:
Mutilate, 55 energy (glyphed), 2 CPs, 3 CPs crit
SS, 40 energy, 1 CP, 50% chance to get a second CP with it (glyph)
Hemo, 30 energy (talented), 1 CP edit: Hemo is talented to 29 which is weird
BS, 40 energy (talented), 1 CP, must be behind target

Both Hemo and BS are fairly lackluster, but Hemo can be spammed, while BS needs not only a positional requirement, but also takes more energy.

I get that they want BS to remain a positional attack, but why not make a glyph of BS similar to SS? We take 5 talents that are higher up than mutilate and 3 talents in tier 2 of Assassination for BS to still be complete crap compared to mutilate?

Eh, I don't really think that Blizzard has really done much thinking or testing on how Sub works. I like some parts of Sub, but the spec just doesn't feel as good as Mutilate (as well thought-out, as well as the synergy etc of the spec). Most of that may be because of Shadowdance. I hate that talent.


I agree wholeheartedly.

For feral all non-Bleed based attacks give 2 CPs on a crit and we have a 30 sec CD that gives 60 energy and a AP boost, the energy part is talented. The positional aspect of Shred, which also only costs 2 more energy when talented by the way if I remember correctly, is compensated by 2 strong bleeds and Mangle not being as far behind as Backstab in both damage and DPE. Plus Shred, being the Backstab analog, benefits from having a bleed up. Feral has strong synergy, Sub does not.

Hemo and Backstab need to be closer in DPE as otherwise a fight like Kolo or anything with lots of adds would rape Sub's damage output.

Shadowdance needs some serious work to actually be a good PvE talent as it makes the spec suffer greatly when you can't just stand there and hit buttons. Any movement at all kills Sub DPS, more so if in a SD phase. Plus the whole Ambush->Evis back and forth in SD is awkward.

I like the idea of HAT making up for the specs poor energy regen but if everything else is clunky the spec will remain a PvP spec and a novelty in PvE.

It's not even really a PvP spec due to the ridiculous amount of ArP you need to make the build work vs warriors and paladins (and shamans with shields). Mutilate with Envenom is much better 90% of the time.

Which is sad, I love ShS as a talent. It's probably my single favorite talent, but it's stuck in a ****** tree.
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#15 Aug 12 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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Epic quote fail into a double post for the win.

Edited, Aug 12th 2010 10:23am by Horsemouth
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#16 Aug 12 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
stuff
Horsemouth wrote:
stuff
Overlord Theophany wrote:
stuff


No more ArP on gear in Cata is another kick in the balls then to the spec as it would kill PvP damage.
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#17 Aug 12 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Horsemouth wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
stuff
Horsemouth wrote:
stuff
Overlord Theophany wrote:
stuff


No more ArP on gear in Cata is another kick in the balls then to the spec as it would kill PvP damage.

Absolutely, and I have a hard time believing Blizzard when they say they're looking at alternative ways for Sub to deal damage to plate, since they say they don't want us bleed-kiting.
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#18 Aug 12 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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They really should base it around bleed-kiting and mobility cause that would be awesome. Just tune rupture way up so it hits like rip.
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#19 Aug 12 2010 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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ArtemisEnteri wrote:
They really should base it around bleed-kiting and mobility cause that would be awesome. Just tune rupture way up so it hits like rip.

I'm gonna go with "no" on that one. Give me some ******* shadow damage in sub.
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#20 Aug 13 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm giving sub PvE a whirl as we speak; just specced into this (I know it might be a bit odd, but bear with me; I'll be leveling more than doing dungeons so I want quick access to Puncturing Wounds, and I can't live without stealth speed) and will be giving dungeons and solo content a go in the future.

Note that one of my talents is probably bugged or something, as I've received 3 additional talent points for no apparent reason when I learned my spec - my paladin buddy had the same, but the game actually removed the points from his Art of War as the talent is apparently not working. I can't actually use them or anything, though. I'll just write up my experiences with the subtlety rotation(s) before I'm off to dinner. There's a TL;DR at the bottom if you don't care for the pure details of every go I had at the target dummy.


-The (dagger) rotation without glyphs seems sloppy and annoying as ****. You basically have JUST about enough time to get 1 Hemo, 4 Backstabs and an Eviscerate in after you put up your Rupture (assuming you put it up at 100 energy), but there's less than a second of breathing room. Evis doesn't hit? Rotation is dead. Evis doesn't refresh Rupture? Rotation is dead. You were too early on your Rupture and lack the energy for the Evis? Rotation is dead.

-The (dagger) rotation with the Backstab glyph is better yet, though far from perfect. I now have plenty of time to get enough BS's in for my Evis, but if it misses or doesn't reset Rupture, I'm still screwed as I have far from enough time to get a second Evis up.

-The (dagger) rotation with the Backstab ánd Rupture glyphs is a lot better. You have enough room to fit in two evises, in case the first one misses.

-The rotation with just Hemo is... odd. You've got a lot more breathing room, but the problem is... if you refresh your Rupture too early, you will not have enough energy to get another 5 hemo's and 1 evis off in the next cycle, thus messing up your rotation. If you do not refresh your Rupture early, you run the risk of Evis missing/not refreshing Rupture which then in turn messes up your rotation anyway.

-As I make life more and more easy for me (Hemo-only rotation with Rupture glyph), it becomes clearer what the real flaw of the spec is. It's not combo points, it's Serrated Blades. Even if this were a group situation and I'd have more use from HaT (and I'd actually have PB), the problem is that you *need* to try and get as many Evises in at pretty much all time or you risk letting Rupture drop. And simply recasting it isn't ideal either - you usually end up with Rupture dropping just after a 5 pt Evis that failed to refresh it, meaning you have to gather up 5 new combo points first. And remember this is just Rupture we're talking about - I haven't even bothered with trying to keep S&D up as well.

TL;DR; it seems like as it is now, at least the Rupture glyph is pretty much a must for the spec. Even then, Serrated Blades *needs* to be a 100% thing, or pure chance could kill your entire DPS. I'm still going to test it out in instances and see how it plays out, but right now the whole thing just feels extremely weird to play with it forcing you to keep up Rupture and finding some way to fit S&D in there too.

Edited, Aug 13th 2010 6:45pm by Mozared
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#21 Aug 13 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Unless your Rupture is ticking for 2k, why are you leveling with bleeds? Smiley: frown
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#22 Aug 13 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Unless your Rupture is ticking for 2k, why are you leveling with bleeds? Smiley: frown


Someone has to test it?

What's your other spec Moz?
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#23 Aug 13 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not likely to do a lot of Ruptures =P, but I just figured it'd be fun to try and get a fairly decent raiding build as well as possible just to see what it played like. Besides, with the simplification of the trees, it seems fairly easy to just go for the spec you want and still do well in any area of play. I don't need the speed anyway, experience gain is (or at least seems) sped up for the beta.

My other spec is nothing yet, but I'm thinking of going Assassination as I dislike combat. I've been debating whether it'd be PvP or PvE, but really, a PvP spec like this is a PvE spec with at most 3 or 4 points swapped around. I'll probably cook something up that contains talents I want to test, as I don't specifically need a pure PvE or PvP build while I have sub going.
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#24 Aug 13 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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The main thing I'd like to see is how Vendetta works. Any info on that would be appreciated, Moz.

Also, if you get to 85, please let me know how you like Smoke Bomb.
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#25 Aug 13 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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The servers are down right now, but with some luck I'll get on tomorrow - I'll give soloing a go in both specs.

Not sure if I'll reach 85, but I'm kind of hyped on Smoke Bomb as well, will definitely post on it if I get it.
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#26 Aug 14 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Since my priest got stuck in the jaws of infinity, I'm rolling with my rogue for tonight. Took a PvEish Assassination offspec build that looks like this; at my level I lack Precision and Opportunity. I threw a point into Murderous Intent just to see how/if it works. The only glyph I have at the moment is the glyph of Mutilate because the glyphing system is bugged.

I'm planning to roll into an instance tonight and level in Vash'jir - will edit the post as I go.

First edit: soloing seems pretty awesome as assassination. There's great synergy between Cut to the Chase and the new Deadly Momentum. As expected, it's easy to keep both S&D and Recuperate running indefinitely when pulling mobs. Deadly Momentum should be an excellent leveling talent as it is. At the moment, my Recuperate is ticking for about 1K, and I've got 28K hit points.

Soloing as subtlety is just as weird as trying to get a PvE rotation, though you still seem to do plenty of damage; it's not like every mob is taking twice as long as assassination. In fact, it seems a bit like the new early-WOTLK-Mutilate-leveling-build where you open up with Cheap Shot and follow up with a Kidney to keep your enemy locked down while you rapidly remove the green from his health bar.

Alternatively, you open with Premed+Cheap Shot, follow up with a Rupture, Hemo and Backstab and you can basically bleed kite the mob for 3-4 seconds before Rupture kills it. My Rupture as subt is ticking for roughly ~3500 right now.

I currently like both specs equal for soloing, though this is about 10 minutes of experience in each of them. I still need to take both of them to a dungeon. For now I'm gonna go solo further as Assassination to see if I can figue out more about Murderous Intent and Vendetta.

Second edit: Assassination is all good, but there are very few grinding quests in Vashj'ir and with the amount of folks around, it actually gets hard to keep S&D and Recuperate up, which is at the moment the main pro for leveling as Assassination. Plus, underwater movement tends to be slower than land movement (you get a mount and a buff, but they don't always apply), which made me to back to Sub. Shadowstep is lovely, and my rotation is now Shadowstep-Premed-Garotte-Rupture-Hemo, followed by a possible Gouge+Backstab. I know bleeds generally isn't the way you want to go, but it's actually funny how **** effective this is for leveling. My bleeds with hemo tick for such ludicrous amounts as sub that most mobs die within ~6 seconds of me applying Garotte. I actually take longer as Assassination. The downside is that if I can't open from stealth, sub's killing speed drops like a brick in the water (no pun intended) and you're stuck spamming Hemo to get an Eviscerate off.

Also, regarding Vendetta, I gave it a little test on a couple of named mobs. It seems about as straightforward as you can get for a spell. It adds a debuff to the target that lasts 30 seconds and makes me do 20% more damage on all my attacks (melee and abilities, it would seem). The debuff doesn't belong to any class (it's not magic, physical, or anything like that) so it seems that the ability cannot be dispelled through normal means. Cloak of Shadows might work, but I need to find and duel another rogue to test that.

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 8:10pm by Mozared

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 8:50pm by Mozared

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 9:52pm by Mozared
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"My guildy Kasdaye" wrote:
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