Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Cata questionsFollow

#52 Aug 22 2010 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
I've been running around hyjal as a tank, and so far nothing can really hurt me. For trash using pulverize usually makes killing things a bit slower, but with lacerate only stacking to three, it's more reasonable to keep it up. If you hit pulverize and then stack lacerate to three, the buff from pulverize will expire just before the lacerate stack falls off, so it might be worth it to use on bosses. We'll have to wait for the number crunches to run it. I just got to 81 and got thrash, so we'll see how that works. As a bear, I take almost no damage, and I'm wondering if anyone doing moonkin or cat find the damage negligible or something to be careful about.

A neat effect that they added is some kind of ability queuing. Currently on live you can't trigger an attack until the GCD is up. However on the beta, you can hit an ability with about 25% of the GCD left, and it will go off, even if you push other buttons in between pushing the first button and the GCD actually expiring. I'm playing with very little lag, and it doesn't happen at all on live, so I assume it's some kind of tweak to help people with worse lag still do solid dps.
____________________________
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
#53 Aug 23 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,157 posts
/combatlog and worldoflogs is your friend for beta number crunching ;)
____________________________
Cicorest, Mage||Das F├╝hrer, DK||Nalgas, Rogue
^Cenarian Circle^
1983 Mazda RX7 GSL - Rexie - My Garage

"Saying that a druid can go resto and do well in arena and saying that a hunter can't do the same doesn't make any sense whatsoever." - Wait
#54 Aug 24 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,020 posts
Confirmed--you can only cast Thorns in humanoid and Boomkin forms.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#55 Aug 24 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,439 posts
Bye bye, Thorns. Smiley: frown

Edit: Someone in the beta said that with 3200 SP and Owlkin Frenzy up, it now does about 600 a tick. That's pretty horrible, considering the health pools people are sporting in Cataclysm. And that's from a Moonkin with spell power. Imagine the damage if a Feral with 0 spell power uses it. El-oh-freakin'-el, waste of GCD.

Edited, Aug 24th 2010 9:53pm by Mazra
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#56 Aug 24 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
24 posts
The new change they made to mangle (It doesn't have a cooldown anymore) feels off. It feels like it is going back to spamming one move aka mangle now. I'll have to see if they changed its damage from the 6 sec CD on to the new one.

Lacerates at 3 stacks is cool but I haven't seen if it pulverizes and gives 6% or 10% crit.

One thing I have been playing with gearwise is the use of Agility rings,cape, and necklace, compared to what we use now a days. Since we currently wear plate tank accesories I think it might be viable to wear the DPS agility accesories.

Live:The advantages of wearing tank > DPS accesories is.

1. Higher stamina values
2. Access to dodge rating, expertise, defense, etc....
3. Bonus armor
4. Strength which gives more AP than straight agility.

Beta:

1. All accesories (ring to ring, necklace to neckalc) have the same stamina value now regardless of classification. A tank ring will have 148 stam while the same ilvl caster ring will have the same stam. All tank classes will have baked in stamina multipliers to boost them above dps classes.

2. The removal of Armor pen and defense really decrease the chances of getting a bad itemized agility tanking ring. Most tanking rings now come equipped with dodge/expertise.

3. Agility will now be providing more AP so as far as strength it is better since it supplies us with armor, dodge, crit, and AP. We may be losing dodge rating but I'm pretty sure the gaining of agility will outway that.

4. If there is too much of a secondary stat, we can reforge it down to gain say more dodge rating.

I'm going to test a few items I have to see what the gain/loss is on my bear tank.

Also Im excited to see how mastery rating will play into tank stat values, as I said in earlier post SD eats a lot of damage now isntead of the small 2k. So easy to level as bear I have no downtime compared to boomkin.

Also Boomkin pvp is going to be awesome, solar beam is very OP at the moment.
#57 Aug 24 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
weecher wrote:
The new change they made to mangle (It doesn't have a cooldown anymore) feels off. It feels like it is going back to spamming one move aka mangle now. I'll have to see if they changed its damage from the 6 sec CD on to the new one.
It will only be spamming one move if the other moves aren't worth it. Blizzard will tune this so that it's not worth doing this. I have a feeling they're aiming at a rotation like this.

pulverize - laceratex3 - mangle till pulverize drops off, then repeat.

You'll put in a FF when needed to keep it up and hit maul if you have extra rage. The timing on pulverize and lacerate is pretty well synchronized, so pulverize will wear off with just enough time to hit it again before lacerate wears off.
____________________________
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
#58 Aug 24 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
24 posts
Wanted to ask you xsarus you get that polearm from the last quest in Deepholme yet? Also what ya think about the new dugeons?
#59 Aug 24 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,439 posts
Maul and Mangle are both instant casts now? That's way too many instant casts in one rotation.

Honestly, though, I'm looking forward to the expansion, but having to turn around 3-4 years of gameplay is difficult. I'm too stuck in the 'every GCD counts' mentality to visualize these changes. All I see is Maul being added to the list of variables I need to handle at any given time. With Mangle no longer having a cooldown, it is added to the list as well.

I can't visualize the rotation they want us to follow.

Xsarus wrote:
pulverize - laceratex3 - mangle till pulverize drops off, then repeat.

You'll put in a FF when needed to keep it up and hit maul if you have extra rage.


Assuming Maul still does more damage than Mangle once the Mangle debuff and Lacerate is up and running (even at minimum rage needed), wouldn't the rotation be:

1st: Feral Faerie Fire > Pulverize > Mangle > Lacerate x 3 > DUMP
2nd: Pulverize > Lacerate x 3 > DUMP

Repeat 2nd, start over when Mangle and Faerie Fire drops?

DUMP = Maul (above XX rage)
DUMP = Mangle (below XX rage)

Not really sure what the **** I'm supposed to do with Maul, since they decided to **** all over my parade and apply Ferocious Bite mechanics to it. Anything that consumes all rage is a bad, bad ability, and the developer who came up with that change should be shot, quartered, burned and his ashes force-fed to whoever approved it.

The problem is, while you might have 80 rage and think using Maul for a 30k hit (exaggerated for effect) would be ideal, the ability "consumes all available rage" which might leave you starved for when you need to keep the rotation up.

Combining a priority system with a fixed rotation is bad, Blizzard. Very bad. Just look at the Kitty rotation/priority crap you've got going. You need to keep Rip, Savage Roar, Mangle and Rake up, and excess energy then needs to be dumped into either Shred or Ferocious Bite, again with the risk of completely messing up the rotation.

Bad, Blizzard. Bad!

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 3:20pm by Mazra
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#60 Aug 25 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,020 posts
Maul doesn't consume all Rage, as far as I know. At least, nothing in the tooltip says it does. It's just like Heroic Strike now--you use it when you have a lot of Rage, but you'll feel starved if you try and use it when you don't.

[EDIT]

Tested it just now--Maul does NOT consume all Rage, but is off the GCD. So you use it to avoid becoming rage capped for free damage while using other skills.

Just auto-attacking a target dummy, I'm finding I easily have enough rage to keep up with the normal rotation with occasional mauls. So you'll be using them more often when you get rage from dodging/taking damage, etc.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 12:06pm by idiggory
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#61 Aug 25 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
24 posts
I should have worded the change to maul differently, it's not an instant cast per say it still has a GCD. Not sure if that is waht you were thinkin, so I tried out the new tanking situation in a few dugeons. But before hand I tried reforging and reforged any stats I didn't need into mastery to see how high I could get the shield to absorb. So afterall the reforging my mastery came out to 56% extra absorbs.

I have to show you some numbers after some of my absorbs I saw it absorbing upwards of 11-12k, once again SD will be godly against single target/dual target tanking. The more mobs you get the less impact it does since it still works like it does on live (or so I think). Ican absrob a 500 500 damage hit and will go away. It definitely is a lot sexier than the live version and mostly due to vengeance. Oh by the way since a lot werte curious here are the number values for vengeance -- Each time you take damage while in Bear Form, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health.

Overall while tanking it actaully felt like I had to watch my moves even more. yes rage matters now and mindless GCD usage could lead to bad threat on certain targets. Mngle is actually pretty nice on a GCD it is the middle ground move that can be used when you dont need to swipe or lacerat and you are alittle low on rage. I even think that will be our primary move since maul is not affected by GCD. Maul if I remember reading does something like an extra 30 rage converted to damage? I'm probably wrong but this is actually nice cuase Im sure blizz doesn't want us to be capped at full rage all the time.At full rage I would use maull and it would put me down to an area where I still had to manage my rage, but it wasn't penalizing me.

hey know don't knarck cat dps it is alright how it is haha, I'm actually going to be swapping my boomkin spec over to cat to do some testing.
#62 Aug 25 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
24 posts
Oh and the lacerate change is very welcomed, it flows and synergizes well with pulverize espicially for boss fight. Now if they could bump the crit chance to 10% instead of 6% :D
#63 Aug 25 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,439 posts
idiggory wrote:
Maul doesn't consume all Rage, as far as I know. At least, nothing in the tooltip says it does. It's just like Heroic Strike now--you use it when you have a lot of Rage, but you'll feel starved if you try and use it when you don't.

[EDIT]

Tested it just now--Maul does NOT consume all Rage, but is off the GCD. So you use it to avoid becoming rage capped for free damage while using other skills.

Just auto-attacking a target dummy, I'm finding I easily have enough rage to keep up with the normal rotation with occasional mauls. So you'll be using them more often when you get rage from dodging/taking damage, etc.


The first blue preview just mentioned something about Maul now consuming more rage the more rage you have, dealing increased damage the more rage is consumed. Perhaps they changed that.

weecher wrote:
Maul if I remember reading does something like an extra 30 rage converted to damage?


That.

It being off the GCD, but on a cooldown, is sweet and completely changes how I view the rotation. The DUMP would be Mangle exclusively. Still not sure where to put Maul if it really consumes up to 30 additional rage. I'm getting this picture in my mind of someone at 50-ish rage using it and losing the entire rage pool.
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#64 Aug 25 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,020 posts
Well, right now it just has a 30 rage cost. Doesn't change. I think they abandoned the scaling maul damage and instead just took it off the GCD.

So, right now, you Pulv, Lac x3, and then Mangle until just before your Lacerate drops, where you Pulverize again. You use Maul just enough to be sure that you won't lose your rotation, since probably it's better to get a buffed Pulverize for 6% crit than to get an extra Maul in.

And, as mentioned, you need to Faerie Fire as required. Demo Roar is important to, since it is a flat -% damage debuff now, and each tank gets one.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#65 Aug 26 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Good
****
7,718 posts
Just from looking at the talent calc don't you Lacerate before Pulv as Pulv is based of Lac stacks?

Spammable Mangle is the result of it being the spec's thing and low level bears not having much else to do with new Maul and a CD on Swipe. I can see Lacerate being dropped to a low level bear attack to help normalize things as Maul and Mangle both at least currently hit harder with a bleed up.

Changes will likely happen regardless as the feral/other trees are still lol-feral and fairly garbage for forcing a choice between bear and cat which I thought was a goal in Cata. I like having a difference and don't want to revert to the chocolate model of feral, tank or DPS in the same gear.
____________________________
Hellbanned

idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
#66 Aug 26 2010 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
It likely won't be the same gear though, we'll still want different accessories and such. Only way I could see getting away with the same gear is if you just stacked mastery, but I don't think that'll math out particularly well.
#67 Aug 26 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,020 posts
Quote:
Just from looking at the talent calc don't you Lacerate before Pulv as Pulv is based of Lac stacks?

Spammable Mangle is the result of it being the spec's thing and low level bears not having much else to do with new Maul and a CD on Swipe. I can see Lacerate being dropped to a low level bear attack to help normalize things as Maul and Mangle both at least currently hit harder with a bleed up.

Changes will likely happen regardless as the feral/other trees are still lol-feral and fairly garbage for forcing a choice between bear and cat which I thought was a goal in Cata. I like having a difference and don't want to revert to the chocolate model of feral, tank or DPS in the same gear.


Pulverize consumes the Lac stacks. So you Pulv just before reapply it. It means you don't have the +6% crit in the beginning, but otherwise you'd have to open your rotation with:

Lacx3>Pulv>Lacx3, which doesn't really sound appealing.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#68 Aug 26 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
Why bother pulverizing at the start if you don't have stacks to apply the crit buff though? It doesn't buff bleeds or interact with any other abilities...

Edit: Yeah, just checked again, there's no reason to lead off with Pulverize whatsoever. If you need a quick opening damage/threat tool, you have Mangle, which likely hits every bit as hard (I doubt 5% weapon damage beats out the added bonus damage on Mangle). Mangle also gives the attack speed debuff, Pulverize does not.

In tanking situations I forsee we'll be putting up FF and demo roar first and foremost, with Mangles in between maybe, and then stacking Lacerate, getting Pulverize up, and restacking Lacerate again.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 2:19pm by Norellicus
#69 Aug 26 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
24 posts
We probably won't ever go back to the DPs/tank gear being the same. Still going to be a huge difference in Gems, Enchants, and secondary stats. Espcially with reforging you can customize your gear on the spot thus getting more tanky stats or more dps stats.

I'm calling it now, I think mastery is going to be very strong on magic based fights since the shield will be our mitigiation to magic. So we may have a Mastery set, normal tank set, and/or dodge set. I really see that reforging gear will probably change depending on boss fights. Right now mastery = best magic mitigation stat.

Generally I use pulverize for two situations, trash I don't really bother unless my target is about to die I will pulverize his stack off. On bosses I use FF/Demo/Mangle/Lacx3 let it tick down/Pulv/lacx3. repeat, this is also taking into consideration of throwing a maul in there at high rage moments since it's off the GCD. What I would like to see is hitting swipe on CD worth it over mangle WTB threat modifier numbers. Anyways I used swipe when mangle had a CD but now it feels like it is just an "AoE" move which blizzard wanted it like that.

One more thing what is a normal lacerate stack ticking for unbuffed without vengeance, I've gotten them to tick for over 3k crit.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 2:22pm by weecher
#70 Aug 26 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,020 posts
It's just to get you some initial threat. In the end, whatever produces the most threat in 5-10 seconds is probably how you'll open. There's a good chance your opener will be different based on whether you are in a dungeon or a raid.

Pulverize, with no Lac stacks, does 124-145% MWD.

Lacerate's initial damage is very low, and the threat it produces up front is lower than Pulverize.

Mangle does lower MWD (119-120%) but does 300 more and adds the bleed debuff.

Thinking about it, I'm guessing that a 5-10 second opening window will have you go:

Mangle>Lacx3>Mangle Spam>Pulverize
Then it is just Lacx3>Mangle Spam>Pulverize

Mangle buffs your Lacerate damage and (at least with my gear) is doing more damage than Pulverize with no Lac stacks.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#71 Aug 26 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
****
7,718 posts
Overlord Norellicus wrote:
It likely won't be the same gear though, we'll still want different accessories and such. Only way I could see getting away with the same gear is if you just stacked mastery, but I don't think that'll math out particularly well.


The new Cata higher health pools, new healing style and planning to avoid radiance of the new raid lend me to believe that with a lol-feral tree you could get away with an agi/mastery gem/chant/etc strat and be the uber OT. Able to be both competitive at DPS and tank roles in the same spec/gear for fights that don't require a 2nd or 3rd full time tank.

As I am hoping that the new design goals they're trying to implement for Cata push tanks away from the, OMG GET MOAR STAM mindset. Its kind of boring.
____________________________
Hellbanned

idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
#72 Aug 26 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
****
7,718 posts
idiggory wrote:
It's just to get you some initial threat. In the end, whatever produces the most threat in 5-10 seconds is probably how you'll open. There's a good chance your opener will be different based on whether you are in a dungeon or a raid.

Pulverize, with no Lac stacks, does 124-145% MWD.

Lacerate's initial damage is very low, and the threat it produces up front is lower than Pulverize.

Mangle does lower MWD (119-120%) but does 300 more and adds the bleed debuff.

Thinking about it, I'm guessing that a 5-10 second opening window will have you go:

Mangle>Lacx3>Mangle Spam>Pulverize
Then it is just Lacx3>Mangle Spam>Pulverize

Mangle buffs your Lacerate damage and (at least with my gear) is doing more damage than Pulverize with no Lac stacks.


Mangle->Thrash->FFF->Demo->Lac*3->Pulv after that just keep everything but Thrash rolling. With Thrash only in there at the start for some extra threat while setting up debuffs. That would be my guess for how we threat things.
____________________________
Hellbanned

idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
#73 Aug 26 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
Horsemouth wrote:
As I am hoping that the new design goals they're trying to implement for Cata push tanks away from the, OMG GET MOAR STAM mindset. Its kind of boring.
Considering vengeance scales with stam I very very much doubt that this will change.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 4:16pm by Xsarus
____________________________
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
#74 Aug 26 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
weecher wrote:
Wanted to ask you xsarus you get that polearm from the last quest in Deepholme yet? Also what ya think about the new dugeons?
I just finally got my game running without crashing all the time, but you have to get summoned to get to deepholm, as the Maelstrom just kills you, and I haven't bothered yet.

Haven't done any dungeons, really want to, just haven't had the time.
____________________________
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
#75 Aug 26 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,020 posts
Quote:
Considering vengeance scales with stam I very very much doubt that this will change.


But healer mana also isn't infinite. In Wrath, it was fine to be a blood tank, because your healer was never going to go OOM. Now, you actually have to care about mitigating and avoiding damage.

In Blizz's own words, we are still gonna care about stam a lot, but we are also much more likely to go for a socket bonus now than we were in Wrath.

We are also getting a talent that currently gives us 3 rage when we dodge, which is one additional maul every 10 dodges. So it is also a threat stat for us now, albeit a low one.

Most importantly, from what I understand, vengeance is going to be something that ramps up over and over again in a fight--it has a duration that starts when you first take damage and restarts the first time you take damage after that. I cannot guarantee that is how it works, it is just what I've heard, and it isn't working on my bear, so I can't test it.

If that is the case, then we may not even be hitting our cap.

And even if it doesn't work that way each point of stam is 1.3 AP or something. It's not a massive difference. As long as you are holding threat, your main concern is going to be taking pressure off your healers.

[EDIT]

Don't feel bad xsarus, I've been in the beta a while longer than you and my highest level is 81. XD I've never been uber leveling focus and there's a LOT to see and test with this expansion. I've mainly focused on mechanics and lowbie leveling experiences so far.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 5:31pm by idiggory
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#76 Aug 26 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,439 posts
Mangle > Lacerate x 3 > Faerie Fire > Demoralizing Roar > Mangle > Pulverize
Lacerate x 3 > Mangle x ? > Pulverize

Repeat till win? Throw in some Mauls when you have the rage. Sounds like a solid rotation.

What are the durations on Faerie Fire and Demoralizing Roar in the beta?
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (1)