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Cataclysm Talent Tree (revised - 31pt)Follow

#1 Jul 14 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://www.wowtal.com/#k=.9mn.mage
First look of the new talent trees (I'm sure a lot of changes are to come)

Definitely pretty cool, they sure did get rid of a lot of bloat it looks a lot more fluid going through the points.

Early opinions:

Arcane
Tier1:
Concentration - Same with less points
Torment the Weak - Nerfed version (funny that they said they were going to remove it as it felt required)
Netherwind Presence - Nerfed version

Tier2:
Potency - Same
Repulsion - Looks like a good pvp talent
Imp-AM - looks decent (based on a proc ability) but would be required to get Mbar
Imp Blink - Nice change, good for pvp and situational for PvE

Tier3:
Cloak (pvp), POM, Mbarrage (moved), and Imp CS (pvp) are all pretty much the same

Tier4:
Imp Poly: Good change for PvP
Tactics: Empowerment buff
Invocation: Good pvp talent and situational (but would be good against interruptable fights) in PvE

Tier5:
IA - Similar, but notes a single 'Mage Ward - possibly for all types of magic?'
Slow -- note required for AP now and Arcane Flows (same)

Tier6:
FM - Same, but farther down the tree to be an arcane-only talent.
Improved Mana Gem - solid new talent, although would be nice to remove the 3 charges

Tier7:
Arcane Power - same talent


Fire
Tier1:
Standard talents, nothing special

Tier2:
Still pretty standard, although Molten Shields and Impact basically force taking a pvp talent

Tier3:
Fire Power only affects DoTs now
Imp scorch is 2pts (not 3) so you have a chance of it now applying
This forces us to take Blastwave or Blazing Speed (probably Blastwave...)

Tier4:
Pyromaniac: AoE talent now
Combustion: Same
Hot Streak: nerfed to require 3 crits within 6 seconds (although not in a row...) makes it a bit of an AoE talent as well

Tier5:
AOE Talents+Molten Fury

Tier6:
Critical Mass: changed, but not necessarily in a bad way

Tier7:
Living Bomb

Frost
Tier1:
Standard talents. Shatter was modified to a multiplier instead of +50% chance

Tier2:
Icy Floes and Piercing stay the same
Permafrost gets a new mortal-strike effect (less healing received)
Early frost seems to be a decent (proc?)

Tier3:
Ice Shards - now affects Blizzard and Ice Lance
IV is the same
FoF - doesn't affect frostbolt anymore, just deep freeze and ice lance. (trying to get away from normal shatter combos/frostbolt spam in PvE?)

Tier4:
Coldsnap + Enduring are the same, as well as Brain Freeze is effectively the same.
Piercing Chill is a cleaved slow, not bad.

Tier5:
Same old talents

Tier6:
Frostfire Orb - a slowing (frost snare) fire orb? /shrug

Tier7:
Deep Freeze

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 9:40am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 9:41am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 10:55am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 10:56am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 11:35am by Anobix
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#2 Jul 14 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm... not sure. On one hand, they definitely 'delivered' as it seems to matter little what talents you pick - you can go wherever you want and you'll barely lose any damage or utility. On the other hand, due to the fact that 31 points in one tree prevents you from picking up the 11-pointers in other trees, a lot of specs are just REALLY straightforward and boring.

I dare you; try making a mage arcane PvP spec. You end up taking literally every talent in the arcane tree save two or three, which leaves you at most 8-10 points to grab stuff that's pretty damn useless to arcane, like Frostbite or Early frost. Or Ignite. There seems little variation possible there. Or at least; there is variation possible, but because none of it actually really impacts your play you'll end up being a homogenized mage anyway. If you go up one tree you can't get high enough up the other trees to actually make grab playstyle-changing talents.

At least, this is true for mages; I haven't checked the other trees yet.
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#3 Jul 14 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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True, Moz, but would you ACTUALLY sacrifice that 31 point talent for an 11 point talent if you could?
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#4 Jul 14 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, I never said I would. But since you asked - perhaps, it depends mostly on the class. Not in the case of mages, anyway. I'm just saying that because you have to go so high up in a tree, you can only spare a few points in other trees, meaning you get a couple of tiny buffs you won't even notice (because once again; the effect of talent trees as a whole has been nerfed).

Also, in my last post I said 8-10 points in other trees "at most". If I actually make an Arcane PvP build that picks up all the stuff I want from Arcane, I'm not even left with that. Grabbing all talents good for PvP in the Arcane tree leaves me with this. Which means that even if I really wanted to skip all talents I can now easily grab in Arcane that are good all-round anyway, I'd only have 6 points left to put into Frost and Fire. In fire, this means as much as "an improved Fire Blast, a bit crit, and a small chance on stuns". In frost, this means as much as "-10% mana cost, Shatter and 1% crit".

If I'd just stick to arcane, I'd get 3% damage (for the entire raid) and a spellpower boost when using my mana gem. For less points. Which means that my preferred PvP arcane tree looks like this. Leaving me two points that do... basically nothing.
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#5 Jul 14 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
Yeah, as I mentioned in the WoW general thread about the changes, I'm ticked off that Arcane mages won't be able to get icy veins, but hopefully they'll be a good way to make it up. Other than that, I don't really have any complaints about the trees, other than I think Arcane Blast would have been a better choice for the initial Arcane spell. That would at least make Arcane a viable leveling tree from level 10. I'll dual spec in Arcane and Frost and try them out though.
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#6 Jul 14 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
other than I think Arcane Blast would have been a better choice for the initial Arcane spell.

Interesting point. I don't know, really. Obviously Arcane Blast is the tree's bread & butter spell, but Arcane Barrage is pretty nifty as well. It's a lot more engaging than standing still and cooking up a nuke, anyway. And it encourages playing around with moving and using instants rather than just standing still and donning the old fireball-fireball-fireball hat.

You could argue that Pyroblast sucks for this reason, but the thing with Pyro is that it's actually thrilling to see such a huge spell going off because you know it's going to put an enourmous dent in the enemy's health bar.
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#7 Jul 14 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
Eh, I guess Arcane Barrage is nifty. Especially at lower levels it's nice from the standpoint that you can use it to finish off a mob instead of having to pull out your wand. I don't know though, just because I rarely use ABarr while I'm out doing dailies and stuff currently.
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#8 Jul 15 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Good
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Looks like arcane is pretty screwed as PvE - If you want to go past 17 points in it you have to pick up a lot of trash in the tree, but you can't spend the amount you're left over with in other trees without picking up even more.

Fire power has been castrated. Which reminds me, weren't talents supposed to be getting more interesting and less passive damage boosts and sh*t? Because that hasn't really happened. If anything, the opposite has; lots of the more interesting abilities, like barrage and the water elemental, have been put into the communal pot.

Quote:
Repulsion - Looks like a good pvp talent


Eh.
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#9 Jul 15 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Default
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I love that frost seems to be top sh*t in PvE so far. REALLY love it. Arcane can wallow in self pity a while for all I give a sh*t.
On a side note, speccing into the threat in the Arcane tree brings my Frost Mage's frostbolt cast time to .78 seconds unbuffed. Essentially, that makes Icy Veins... useless.
Granted, I'm sure there's other stuff that will be at play and this isn't my 85 raiding gear, but that seems a bit overkill. IV + Heroism will = .2 second frostbolts on an (assumably) 1 second GCD.....
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#10 Jul 15 2010 at 9:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Looks like arcane is pretty screwed as PvE - If you want to go past 17 points in it you have to pick up a lot of trash in the tree, but you can't spend the amount you're left over with in other trees without picking up even more.

Fire power has been castrated. Which reminds me, weren't talents supposed to be getting more interesting and less passive damage boosts and sh*t? Because that hasn't really happened. If anything, the opposite has; lots of the more interesting abilities, like barrage and the water elemental, have been put into the communal pot.

Quote:
Repulsion - Looks like a good pvp talent


Eh.


The passive damage boost are supposed to be baked into your mastery. it should work out to be the same.Notice that flame throwing is also gone. Also baked in.

Plus it is not communal, those are specialization spells you get by selecting a specialization. Instead of spending points to get those, they are given when you select.
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#11 Jul 16 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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cancerous wrote:
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Looks like arcane is pretty screwed as PvE - If you want to go past 17 points in it you have to pick up a lot of trash in the tree, but you can't spend the amount you're left over with in other trees without picking up even more.

Fire power has been castrated. Which reminds me, weren't talents supposed to be getting more interesting and less passive damage boosts and sh*t? Because that hasn't really happened. If anything, the opposite has; lots of the more interesting abilities, like barrage and the water elemental, have been put into the communal pot.

Quote:
Repulsion - Looks like a good pvp talent


Eh.


The passive damage boost are supposed to be baked into your mastery. it should work out to be the same.Notice that flame throwing is also gone. Also baked in.

Plus it is not communal, those are specialization spells you get by selecting a specialization. Instead of spending points to get those, they are given when you select.


Ah, I see. I haven't been paying attention for some time; just popped in again to see if there was anything that might entice me to come back.
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#12 Jul 16 2010 at 3:45 AM Rating: Decent
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well I just kept half or a quarter of a eye on the game for the 5-6 mths of not playing the game and not buying pre-paid game time cards.

I know the masteries were going to replace most of the mandatory passive talents. Fire power's original stats and empowered fire have their stats baked into fire mastery. Flame throwing is now in mastery. What I did not expect was that talent trees were getting pruned.

And pruned trees also had something else to go with it. a new specialization system. Quite amazing cos for frost, at level 10 you will get the water elemental. Which I am quite certain will have its duration scale according to level.

Arcane needs a lot of work. and a blue post mentioned that as well which means something might be done to either allow arcane blast to be learnt earlier or to bake it in and let you talent barrage... which is going to be strange in any case...
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#13 Jul 18 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm pretty disgusted by the current state of mages, to tell the truth. And I pointed this out in the general thread, but Arcane has NO main nuke until level 36, when they first get Arcane Blast. Until then you'll be using Frostbolts to try and get AM to light up. And that means your mastery is basically useless as it is only going to apply to like 30% of your damage, max. Unless they make AM really strong. But that would be lame, since then you'd be using really weak spells hoping to get the RNG to let you actually do some damage.

Pyroblast is currently the same cast time as Fireball for 8% more base mana. So you will just be replacing a Fireball with it every so often (I'm assuming the debuff doesn't stack, so the optimal DpS will depend on x ticks before you use the spell again). You don't get Hot streak for quite a while. And it is even longer until you actually get a use out of it. It requires 3 crits in a span of 6 seconds to work. That's gonna be rough until you get Living Bomb. Assuming your DoTs off of the nukes can't crit, then you'll need to watch for when you get two crits in a row and hit Fire Blast and hope it crits, just so you get an instant Pyro. And that means you'll have to have FB macroed with a /stopcasting so you can use it before the window of opportunity closes, which will be lost DpS if it doesn't crit.

I'm not pleased with how things are working now. Two specs just seem like they suck (Fire longer than Arcane). Only Frost makes any sense from a leveling standpoint right now. Endgame too, for that matter.

[EDIT]

And let's be blunt, the only reason that Frost isn't f*cked up is because Blizz didn't touch it. They basically just took any talent that wasn't a +% damage or a cast time reduction and put it in the tree, moving the elemental to level 10. And they made Shatter get gradually better--it'll suck when you first get it but be great when geared. Other than that, is there ANYTHING new about Frost? Nope.

Though Early Frost looks stupid to me. It's only a 3% haste buff or so if you use a Fbolt EVERY 15 seconds. If you get FoF/BF procs, it's gonna be lower. I'll have to see how it works out with sims regarding haste levels in Cata.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 3:32am by idiggory
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#14 Jul 18 2010 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
Actually Mastery won't be unlocked until level 75, so it doesn't really make a difference on that perspective, that you don't get Arcane Blast until 36. I absolutely agree with you on every other point though, and I need to remember to make that suggestion in the beta. If they're going to make Arcane Missiles a proc spell, they should swap what levels they give mages Arcane Missiles and Arcane Blast.

That might be part of the reason why I've been focusing on my goblin. I know I said that I would play around with my mage some once I finished the goblin starting areas, but I just have no interest in touching her. She bores me at this point. I'm curious about the new leveling areas for sure, but I just don't care about my mage right now. It makes me really sad, considering how much time I've put into her over the last two years, but what can you do?
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#15 Jul 18 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Hold up here. What level do you get AB in live? 50ish? What do you do until then? Arcane Missiles spam is too mana intensive.
Blizzard said their goal in Cata is to make all 3 specs of a class VIABLE if not OPTIMAL.
For Vanilla and BC, fire mages were top sh*t. In LK, Arcane mages were. In Cata, it appears to be Frost (It is undergoing the least changes for Cata because it saw a TON of changes in the life of LK).
Why the hate?
Also, I dunno about at level 10, but at level 80, Pyroblast does more than double Fireball's damage, and more than quadruple its DoT, for only a half second longer cast. Seems fair to me, though I'll admit I'd rather see LB as their level 10 ability.

Edit: Early frost confuses me a bit. The way it's worded is odd, and it just seems to apply the haste buff once in a blue moon. It's either glitched, or it's supposed to be more random than it reads. Of course, even without the early frost buff, I'm kicking out .77 second frostbolts. I'm sure more tuning will come with gear, but level 80 gear got most of its spellpower converted to int and more haste. Since I gem haste / SP (SP gems ARE still in the game!), it came as a bit of a shock.
I'll also note that mage spells hit for WAY less damage. On live, frostbolt hits for around 7K. In Beta, we're talking more like 2K.
Edit 2: Ok, I figured it out. Frostbolt is only hitting for an average of 3500 on beta, because the masteries do not seem to be working right.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 1:21pm by jaysgsl
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#16 Jul 18 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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That's TERRIBLE logic. What you are basically saying is "It isn't viable now, so who cares if it is viable in Cata?" Might as well say the same thing about Frost in endgame.

Plus, Arcane isn't so bad right now. You never even come close to going OOM with Frost, especially with BoAs, so the higher cost of AM doesn't matter. It's actually not that much larger, anyway, since even though AM is expensive it does far more damage. I see plenty of people leveling with it now, especially if they do a lot of dungeons, and they go whole runs without drinking and doing fine DpS. Frost doesn't get way better until Deep Freeze is available, since it is balanced for level 80.
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#17 Jul 18 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
Actually on live you get Arcane Blast at 64. Or at least that's when I got it on my mage. I'm not whining because I want Arcane to stay top dog. I don't really care about that, I'm talking about making it a viable leveling spec. It's absolutely retarded to make a low level Arcane specced mage have to cast Firebolt or Frostbolt to light up Arcane Missiles. It just doesn't make sense. If they want Arcane to be a viable leveling spec, they should give mages Arcane Blast at around level 10 or earlier, that's all I'm saying.
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#18 Jul 18 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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I thought Abarr was learned at level 10 specialization?
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#19 Jul 18 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Diggory, I don't quite what you're saying here;
Quote:
Until then you'll be using Frostbolts to try and get AM to light up.


It might be me being confused (rather sleepy atm), but take another close look at the tree as it currently is and notice two things;

1) WOTLK-style Arcane Barrage is completely gone. There is no more "using spell A to get an Arc. Barrage proc for a quick AM" at all.
2) The new Arcane Barrage, along with Imp. Arcane Missiles, it's prerequisite, are attainable relatively quickly, and improve Arcane Barrage.

3) Not necissarily a talent thing, but it has been mentioned time and time again that mana is virtually a zero point while leveling now.

From what I'm seeing here, it seems that Arcane Missiles will be Arcane's 'main nuke' while leveling, rather than Arcane Blast.
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#20 Jul 18 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Moz, take a moment and think about the names of things.

ARCANE Barrage is an instant spell. MISSILE barrage is a talent that increases the cast speed of AM.

MBAM is the abbreviation for Missile Barrage, generally. Abarr is Arcane Barrage.

At level 10, mages get Abarr if they spec Arcane.

This means their abilities are:

Frostbolt
Fireball
Arcane Missiles
Arcane Barrage (instant that is buffed by AB but doesn't consume it anymore).

AM is no longer a basic nuke. You need to use spells to "proc" it, which will then let you use it. I imagine it's a % chance thing on each cast. And it doesn't cost any mana, from what I understand.

So, an Arcane Mage without Arcane Blast has to spam Frostbolts or Fireballs to try and get their AM spell to pop up for use. You'll likely use Frostbolt so that you can talent Torment the Weak. So your rotation will be identical to Frost's, except they also have a pet doing damage and get the utility of Frost Bite/Shatter/Permafrost and a buff to their frost damage. You only really get AM buffed, and that's dependent on the RNG to use.

Considering the purpose of specializing was to make you feel connected to your spec, the fact that you are playing like a gimped Frost Mage as Arcane until level 36, when you finally get your basic nuke is a huge problem. They should give you Arcane Blast at level 10 and make you either talent Abarr or get it at a higher level. Especially, since it is buffed by AB without consuming charges, it seems to me that it's going to be more like Ice Lance in that it has pitiful damage when used without. Doesn't sound useful, imo.

[EDIT]

Just to add:

You specialize as a Frost Mage and you get a Water Elemental. Right away you really feel like a Frost Mage--distinct.

As a Fire mage, you get Pyro. Personally, this means crap to me. I don't find it interesting at all. Pyro is now identical to Fball in cast time. So it's just a nuke that costs more for much more damage. I'm assuming you'll use it every 12 seconds for the DoT effect. I don't think this really makes you feel like a Fire Mage any more than a fireball does, since that's all it is, but bigger. I think Dragon's Breath or Living Bomb would have been better. But I see why the latter wasn't used at least. I imagine they did it just because they would have needed to give it to you before Hot Streak anyway.

But Arcane Barrage? You get a fairly wimpy instant spell and don't even get to use Arcane spells much, since most of your casts come from another tree. And your first talent points go to buffing your Frostbolts, primarily, from TtW. It would have been more interesting to give them Slow. And, frankly, probably more effective for leveling, so you'd have another tool to manage adds.

It would be like giving Unholy DKs Unholy Blight instead of Scourge Strike. You'd have to wait to get your main ability and deal with a crappy minor bonus until then.

[EDIT2]

AM is a 30% chance to proc on offensive spell casts. And it will apparently be useful for every spec until Frost/Fire replace it with Pyro/FFB or FB.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 8:44pm by idiggory
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#21 Jul 18 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Default
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Where the heck do you get the idea that Pyroblast is the same cast time as Fireball? I CLEARLY explained it's a half second difference, and more than a double damage difference.
You're not reading, you're putting on glasses that have "Cataclysm sucks because they're making me think about how to play my classes differently" printed on the inside of the lenses.
Not every single class is going to get some super uber nuke as their level 10 spec. Ret pallies get Divine Storm currently, which SUCKS for single target now (really). BM hunters get Intimidation! Again, not every spec is going to get an ubernuke, so Arcane getting an instant cast spell isn't the end of the world. It actually fills a role that I wish was filled for frost at lower levels. The cooldown isn't terribly long at 6 seconds.
Arcane is the 'PvP' spec of Cata, it seems. People need to wrap their head around this concept.
Things change, get used to it. (hahaha)
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#22 Jul 18 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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I was just using WoWhead's information, which was saying it was a 3.5 second cast with a 12 second DoT.

Though it is now saying it's a 5 second cast (literally changed when I hit the backspace by accident, then went forward again).

Are you talking about Pyro with Haste or without? What are the default cast times? WoWhead says FB's cast at level 10 is 2.45 seconds and it is capped out at 3.5 by level 20.

[EDIT]

And I never said they should get an "ubernuke." I don't think it's a ridiculous claim to say that it should get a STANDARD nuke. You know, what Frostbolt and Fireball are to Frost/Fire.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 9:06pm by idiggory
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#23 Jul 18 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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Gah! Dig, you're right. Arcane Barrage, Arcane Missiles, Missile Barrage and Arcane Blast. And to make it even easier, Arcane Potency, Arcane Concentration, Arcane Flows, Arcane Tactics and Arcane Repulsion. What the Arcane tree needs right now is more talent names that start with 'Arcane'.

In regards to Pyro; I like it because it is that long. It might not be 'the most effective spell' before Hot Streak, but throwing a huge meteor in a mob's face does kind of define the fire spec to me. I have no clue what they're turning it into, though...
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#24 Jul 18 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Mozared wrote:
Gah! Dig, you're right. Arcane Barrage, Arcane Missiles, Missile Barrage and Arcane Blast. And to make it even easier, Arcane Potency, Arcane Concentration, Arcane Flows, Arcane Tactics and Arcane Repulsion. What the Arcane tree needs right now is more talent names that start with 'Arcane'.

In regards to Pyro; I like it because it is that long. It might not be 'the most effective spell' before Hot Streak, but throwing a huge meteor in a mob's face does kind of define the fire spec to me. I have no clue what they're turning it into, though...


I gotta admit charging "casting" that big wrecking ball of fire and flinging it at a hapless mob/player gives me great pleasure.

Interestingly enough mobs in leveling zones still melt to that spell rather quickly. I guess that is effective.
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#25 Jul 18 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Default
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Pyro is freakin' awesome at low levels. It does a TON more damage than Fireball (perceived, not necessarily realistic), and the wind up for that big bomb is cool as sh*t.
Barrage is PERFECT for the new goals of Arcane: PvP.
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#26 Jul 19 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
As long as we're using proper names for clarity:

idiggory wrote:
MBAM is the abbreviation for Missile Barrage, generally.


I've never heard a Mage say this. Mbarr, sure, since it implies you're actually going to use the proc; but MBAM is a new one to me. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 3:17pm by Norellicus
#27 Jul 19 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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mbam is nothing new, it is Missile Barrage Arcane Missiles


Edited, Jul 19th 2010 3:43pm by Anobix
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#28 Jul 21 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Finally got my Nelf Mage to level 10 (Quests were broken previously).
Cast time for Pyro is 2.76 seconds. Cast time for Fireball is 1.97 seconds. Fireball does 30-36 damage. Pyro does 60-65 damage.
There is certainly enough of a difference in the two spells to have Pyro as the specialty skill.
Puddles starts out at a 1 minute duration.
Abarr does 51-58 damage, and has a 100% chance of activating AM.
Fire gets Molten Shield early as one of their specialties.
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#29 Jul 21 2010 at 4:56 AM Rating: Good
How's the mana usage of spamming ABarr and AM? Does it eat it up significantly more than the spells for the other two specs?
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#30 Jul 21 2010 at 5:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Some pretty significant changes here:

Arcane

* Mage Armor is now trained at level 68. Up from 64.
-- I didn't realize we had to wait until WotLK to train mage armor...
* Arcane Explosion is now trained at level 58. Up from 56.
-- When did this happen, do we just Blizzard/FS then?
* Mana Shield is now trained at level 46. Down from 52.
-- /shrug, survivability
* Arcane Intellect is now trained at level 52. Up from 48.
-- don't see the reason for this
* Conjure Mana Gem is now trained at level 48. Up from 46.
-- or this
* Slow Fall is now trained at level 32. Up from 26.
-- or this


Fire

* Frostfire Bolt is now trained at level 56. Down from 68.
-- I guess this will be good for frost
* Molten Armor is now trained at level 64. Up from 54.
-- so another armor held off until midway through outland
* Scorch is now trained at level 26. Down from 32.
-- k.


Frost

* Frost Nova is now trained at level 8. Down from 9.
-- OOOOOOOH
* Frostbolt is now trained at level 7. Down from 8.
-- OH WOW
* Frost Armor is now trained at level 54. Up from 7.
-- wut?


As for new talent changes... didn't appear to be many, besides a pre-req here and there.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage#vm-KBJarI,,12539

is pretty much what I have come up with for a fire pve build, could move the point from blastwave to imp flamestrike I suppose for 2/2.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage#vAy3tQfP,,12539

is the best I could do for arcane, it is an absolute mess for PvE right now: needing to take a ton of random talents to fill out the tree.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage#15Ui0jP_,,12539

Is my frost pve build, frost actually has a bunch of situational talents that may not be very useful in raids, so it is difficult to split them and get the necessary talents.

Edited, Jul 21st 2010 8:02am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 21st 2010 8:02am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 21st 2010 8:12am by Anobix
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#31 Jul 21 2010 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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Mozared wrote:
What the Arcane tree needs right now is more talent names that start with 'Arcane'.
And another new icon for Mage Armor.

No, I'm not bitter.


Quote:
How's the mana usage of spamming ABarr and AM? Does it eat it up significantly more than the spells for the other two specs?
I was kinda wondering that myself. I'd love to see it tweaked to make Arcane the mobile attack tree when soloing. Has anyone run numbers on the low level version of the spell?
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#32 Jul 21 2010 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage#vAy3tQfP,,12539

is the best I could do for arcane, it is an absolute mess for PvE right now: needing to take a ton of random talents to fill out the tree.

I like that, tbh. It allows you to get all the LOL+DAMAGE talents to do well in PvE but still allows you to get preferred PvP talents. A stun on your poly because of those hasty DPS? Speed when blinking to have an easier time of moving out of the fire? Heck, an instant Invisibility for those fights where it's oh-so useful.
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#33 Jul 21 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Finally got into a dungeon on my frostie. I can REALLY say that I want recount available.
Currently, Fingers of Frost is so batsh*t broken that it's honestly a little funny.
The only way to get FoF to eat a charge is to deep freeze.... a non immune mob. Other than that, you can cast all the spells you want and stay at 2 charges.
This is significant, because Ice Lance is now a competent spell when the mobs are frozen.

A single FoFed IL does around 5K, crits for around 9-10K. A single fofed frostbolt does around 4K, crits for around 8K. IL has NO cooldown aside from the GCD. So, spamming IL and DF on a boss with FoF up means I can literally watch the health tick down as I spam IL crits (around 99% of IL are crits during FoF on the beta).
This is OBVIOUSLY glitched, there's no way they'd let it actually stay like that, where for 15 seconds you get free 'uberdeeps.'
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#34 Jul 21 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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* Frost Armor is now trained at level 54. Up from 7.
-- wut?


Uh-huh. Either it'll be trainable after ice armor, its straight-upgrade, or they're switching the two around so FA is the better one just to screw with people.

...Or they're going to move ice armor up even further and have no armor spells available until 54.
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#35 Jul 21 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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Fire, for LOW level mages first getting specialties, gets Molten Armor upon speccing it. I assume, then, all of the armors will go to their respective class at level 10. We can hope they're updating Frost / Ice shield to be useful for DPS....
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#36 Jul 21 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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pyro still has its cooldown right??

so the cast times have been changed. well now that you no longer get pyro and have PoM, they can finally change the cast times.

was the Combustion changes in the earlier talent trees posted? looks soooo much better and clean too.

One confirmed crit (spend it on a pyro) and you get a merged DoT (which solves some of the lost dps due to ignite overwriting) for 10s (which may mean a dps increase).

know what... I may really come back to the game. *rubs hands
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The first week he was all "ZOMG just happy to be here, killing bosses! I just want to raid", 2nd week there was grumbling, 3rd week he is about ready to emoplode


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You won't like the ones made to your own class but you'll think the changes made to the 9 other classes are all overpowered.
#37 Jul 21 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
pyro still has its cooldown right??

Wait, what?

Pyro hasn't had a cooldown since... TBC, or something? And this;
Quote:
so the cast times have been changed. well now that you no longer get pyro and have PoM, they can finally change the cast times.

makes no sense at all? What are you trying to say? Now that you no longer can obtain an instant pyro (which was an underpowered spec in WOTLK in the first place), it makes sense that they... lower the cast time of Pyro?

Forgive me if I come across apprehensive or offensive here; It might just be me being tired again, but I really can't make sense of what you're saying. Feel free to elaborate.
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#38 Jul 21 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, that makes no sense. Just so you know cancer, insta-pyros are an important part of Fire Mage DpS RIGHT NOW, due to the Hot Streak talent.

Less DpS per cast than Living Bomb, but far more than Fireball (it hits slightly harder and has a cast time that's equal to your GCD).
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#39 Jul 22 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Decent
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well I had been under the notion that pyro had to have a 6 sec cast due to PoM... dunno just a feeling I had.

kinda recall that pyro had a cooldown, might have been removed when they introduced hot streak. 6s was what I remember as it's cd...

Yes, I know hot-streak pyro is an important part of Fire spec dps. I played that basically all the way in 1st half of TBC/WotLK. With a severely reduced cast time 2.67s(?), it will be much more useful since opening with pyro will be less time consuming.
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The first week he was all "ZOMG just happy to be here, killing bosses! I just want to raid", 2nd week there was grumbling, 3rd week he is about ready to emoplode


tigole wrote:
You won't like the ones made to your own class but you'll think the changes made to the 9 other classes are all overpowered.
#40 Jul 22 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
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pyro only had a cooldown when you had the fire talent that allowed for super-fast pyro casts when you were below 25(30)% hp - which no one in their right mind took.
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#41 Jul 22 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
well I had been under the notion that pyro had to have a 6 sec cast due to PoM... dunno just a feeling I had.

I don't mind 'feelings', as I work with them a lot, but... this makes no sense? What are you saying? That because it was possible to launch instant Pyroblasts in a specific spec, it should mean that all other Pyroblasts cast would need to have a huge cast timer?

Pyroblast has always been about "cooking up a huge meteor and exploding someones face", and that's why it has/had such a long cast timer. This notion made it a horrible spell for the majoriy of the game, but I do very much reckon that's the design philosophy behind it.
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#42 Jul 22 2010 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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alright enough abt me rambling over Pyro's cast time and how it was rationalised.

MMO champ class changes

Arcane

* Spellsteal now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Arcane Barrage now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Polymorph now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Mana Shield now has a 10 sec cooldown.
* Arcane Blast now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Slow Fall now has a 40 yards range. Up from 30 yards.
* Counterspell now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Arcane Missiles now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Focus Magic now is a Tier 4 talent. Down from Tier 6.
* Incanter's Absorption now is a Tier 4 Talent. Down from Tier 5. Additional effect - In addition, when your Mana Shield is destroyed, all enemies within 6 yards are knocked back 12 yards.
* Slow now has a 35 yards range. Up from 30 yards.
* Arcane Flows now is a Tier 3 talent. Down from Tier 5.
* Invocation now is a Tier 2 Talent. Down from Tier 4.
* Improved Counterspell now is a Tier 1 talent. Down from Tier 3.
* Arcane Repulsion is gone.
* Arcane Concentration is now a 3-rank talents (Up from 2) and now has a 3/6/10% chance to proc.
* Torment the Weak is now a Tier 5 talent. Up from Tier 1. Now only boosts the damage of Arcane damage spells.
* Nether Vortex *New* - Gives your Arcane Blast spell a 50/100% chance to apply the Slow spell to any target it damages if no target is currently affected by Slow.


Fire

* Flamestrike now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Scorch now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Pyroblast now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Fire Blast now has a 30 yards range. Up from 20 yards.
* Fireball now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Living Bomb now has a 40 yards range. Up from 35 yards.
* Blazing Speed now is a Tier 2 Talent. Down from Tier 3.
* Burning Soul now is a Tier 1 talent. Down from Tier 2.
* Impact now is a Tier 3 Talent. Up from Tier 2.
* Improved Fire Blast now is a Tier 2 Talent. Up from Tier 1.
* Incineration now increases damage instead of critical strike chance.


Frost

* Ice Lance now has a 35 yards range. Up from 30 yards.
* Blizzard now has a 35 yards range. up from 30 yards.
* Frostbolt now has a 35 yards range. Up from 30 yards.
* Frostfire Orb has an additional effect - Targets damaged by the Frostfire Orb are slowed by 40% for 2 sec.
* Cold as Ice is gone.
* Ice Floes now also affects Cold Snap and Ice Barrier.
* Piercing Chill is now a Tier 2 Talent. Down from Tier 4.
* Brain Freeze is now a Tier 3 talent. Down from Tier 4.
* Fingers of Frost is now a Tier 4 talent. Up from Tier 3.
* Piercing Ice is now a Tier 1 Talent. Down from Tier 2.
* Frostbite is gone.
* Improved Freeze *New* - Gives your Water Elemental's Freeze spell a 50/100% chance to cause Fingers of Frost to activate.
* Improved Cone of Cold *New* - Your Cone of Cold also freezes targets for 2/4 secs.


No more Frostbite... that is going to be very strange. Oh btw, seems like Fire mages will not be using arcane missile given how the new hot streak works. fair exchange? (did I just work a FMA reference in??)

Arcane is getting a few rather interesting PvP talents...

thoughts?
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The first week he was all "ZOMG just happy to be here, killing bosses! I just want to raid", 2nd week there was grumbling, 3rd week he is about ready to emoplode


tigole wrote:
You won't like the ones made to your own class but you'll think the changes made to the 9 other classes are all overpowered.
#43 Jul 22 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Nothing hugely new, I'd say. Arcane Repulsion was put into Incanter's Absorption, which means the Arcane PvP spec is still more or less the same.

The only thing I'm curious about is what the 'point' of Nether Vortex is. In raids, you won't need this, and in PvP... You generally apply Slow before you even attempt getting off an Arcane Blast?
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#44 Jul 22 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I am thinking that it is used to refresh it on a slowed target. which brings to mind DR timer...

another experiment perhaps
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bodhisattva, Defender of Justice wrote:

The first week he was all "ZOMG just happy to be here, killing bosses! I just want to raid", 2nd week there was grumbling, 3rd week he is about ready to emoplode


tigole wrote:
You won't like the ones made to your own class but you'll think the changes made to the 9 other classes are all overpowered.
#45 Jul 22 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I am thinking that it is used to refresh it on a slowed target.

Ah, of course. That's stupidly obvious and I didn't even think of it. I still see Arcane as this 'ultimate-glass-cannon' powerhouse where it's 3-shot or be 3-shot. Which is a position it will obviously no longer have in Cataclysm, so refreshing Slows make sense.

On another note; I thought slow had no diminishing returns?
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#46 Jul 22 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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oh really??

I never use my mage in pvp so I would not know. as a snare debuff, I would assume it to be in the dr thing.

even if the slow is not going to stick, the defuff should and thus allow for damage bonus.

i am thinking... cast slow, Arcane Barrage, AM, ABlast. saving PoM poly for a control target. In any case, I dun pvp much and my theories on it are at best theories...
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tigole wrote:
You won't like the ones made to your own class but you'll think the changes made to the 9 other classes are all overpowered.
#47 Jul 23 2010 at 6:06 AM Rating: Good
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If they move Ablast training up and with a slow I can see it becoming a worthwhile leveling talent.
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#48 Jul 29 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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Okay, so here's my experience with fire on a training dummy.

Since Hot Streak is now any 3 crits within 6 seconds, you basically end up alternating between Fireball and Pyro. SOMETIMES you'll need to throw two FBs before you can pyro. My crit chance is 40%, though. But LB now can crit by default.

Other than that, it's basically the exact same fire we have now. I'll leave jay to report on Frost. Sometime later I'll investigate Mage Fire/Arcane leveling.
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#49 Jul 29 2010 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Since Hot Streak is now any 3 crits within 6 seconds

Quote:
any 3 crits

Could you define that? As in ignite tick crits (wait, do these actually exist?) contribute towards Hot Streak again as well? And Living Bomb's periodical damage?
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#50 Jul 29 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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I was literally getting a HS proc every other cast, so I assume ignite (if it can crit, counts). Living Bomb definitely counts.
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#51 Jul 29 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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It seems like the 'arcane missiles' components are buggy, and proccing whenever the hell they feel like it. This is Arcane Missiles, Brain Freeze, and Hot Streak.
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