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Cataclysm Talent Tree (revised - 31pt)Follow

#1 Jul 14 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://www.wowtal.com/#k=.9mn.mage
First look of the new talent trees (I'm sure a lot of changes are to come)

Definitely pretty cool, they sure did get rid of a lot of bloat it looks a lot more fluid going through the points.

Early opinions:

Arcane
Tier1:
Concentration - Same with less points
Torment the Weak - Nerfed version (funny that they said they were going to remove it as it felt required)
Netherwind Presence - Nerfed version

Tier2:
Potency - Same
Repulsion - Looks like a good pvp talent
Imp-AM - looks decent (based on a proc ability) but would be required to get Mbar
Imp Blink - Nice change, good for pvp and situational for PvE

Tier3:
Cloak (pvp), POM, Mbarrage (moved), and Imp CS (pvp) are all pretty much the same

Tier4:
Imp Poly: Good change for PvP
Tactics: Empowerment buff
Invocation: Good pvp talent and situational (but would be good against interruptable fights) in PvE

Tier5:
IA - Similar, but notes a single 'Mage Ward - possibly for all types of magic?'
Slow -- note required for AP now and Arcane Flows (same)

Tier6:
FM - Same, but farther down the tree to be an arcane-only talent.
Improved Mana Gem - solid new talent, although would be nice to remove the 3 charges

Tier7:
Arcane Power - same talent


Fire
Tier1:
Standard talents, nothing special

Tier2:
Still pretty standard, although Molten Shields and Impact basically force taking a pvp talent

Tier3:
Fire Power only affects DoTs now
Imp scorch is 2pts (not 3) so you have a chance of it now applying
This forces us to take Blastwave or Blazing Speed (probably Blastwave...)

Tier4:
Pyromaniac: AoE talent now
Combustion: Same
Hot Streak: nerfed to require 3 crits within 6 seconds (although not in a row...) makes it a bit of an AoE talent as well

Tier5:
AOE Talents+Molten Fury

Tier6:
Critical Mass: changed, but not necessarily in a bad way

Tier7:
Living Bomb

Frost
Tier1:
Standard talents. Shatter was modified to a multiplier instead of +50% chance

Tier2:
Icy Floes and Piercing stay the same
Permafrost gets a new mortal-strike effect (less healing received)
Early frost seems to be a decent (proc?)

Tier3:
Ice Shards - now affects Blizzard and Ice Lance
IV is the same
FoF - doesn't affect frostbolt anymore, just deep freeze and ice lance. (trying to get away from normal shatter combos/frostbolt spam in PvE?)

Tier4:
Coldsnap + Enduring are the same, as well as Brain Freeze is effectively the same.
Piercing Chill is a cleaved slow, not bad.

Tier5:
Same old talents

Tier6:
Frostfire Orb - a slowing (frost snare) fire orb? /shrug

Tier7:
Deep Freeze

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 9:40am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 9:41am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 10:55am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 10:56am by Anobix

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 11:35am by Anobix
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#2 Jul 14 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm... not sure. On one hand, they definitely 'delivered' as it seems to matter little what talents you pick - you can go wherever you want and you'll barely lose any damage or utility. On the other hand, due to the fact that 31 points in one tree prevents you from picking up the 11-pointers in other trees, a lot of specs are just REALLY straightforward and boring.

I dare you; try making a mage arcane PvP spec. You end up taking literally every talent in the arcane tree save two or three, which leaves you at most 8-10 points to grab stuff that's pretty **** useless to arcane, like Frostbite or Early frost. Or Ignite. There seems little variation possible there. Or at least; there is variation possible, but because none of it actually really impacts your play you'll end up being a homogenized mage anyway. If you go up one tree you can't get high enough up the other trees to actually make grab playstyle-changing talents.

At least, this is true for mages; I haven't checked the other trees yet.
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#3 Jul 14 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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True, Moz, but would you ACTUALLY sacrifice that 31 point talent for an 11 point talent if you could?
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#4 Jul 14 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, I never said I would. But since you asked - perhaps, it depends mostly on the class. Not in the case of mages, anyway. I'm just saying that because you have to go so high up in a tree, you can only spare a few points in other trees, meaning you get a couple of tiny buffs you won't even notice (because once again; the effect of talent trees as a whole has been nerfed).

Also, in my last post I said 8-10 points in other trees "at most". If I actually make an Arcane PvP build that picks up all the stuff I want from Arcane, I'm not even left with that. Grabbing all talents good for PvP in the Arcane tree leaves me with this. Which means that even if I really wanted to skip all talents I can now easily grab in Arcane that are good all-round anyway, I'd only have 6 points left to put into Frost and Fire. In fire, this means as much as "an improved Fire Blast, a bit crit, and a small chance on stuns". In frost, this means as much as "-10% mana cost, Shatter and 1% crit".

If I'd just stick to arcane, I'd get 3% damage (for the entire raid) and a spellpower boost when using my mana gem. For less points. Which means that my preferred PvP arcane tree looks like this. Leaving me two points that do... basically nothing.
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#5 Jul 14 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
Yeah, as I mentioned in the WoW general thread about the changes, I'm ticked off that Arcane mages won't be able to get icy veins, but hopefully they'll be a good way to make it up. Other than that, I don't really have any complaints about the trees, other than I think Arcane Blast would have been a better choice for the initial Arcane spell. That would at least make Arcane a viable leveling tree from level 10. I'll dual spec in Arcane and Frost and try them out though.
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#6 Jul 14 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
other than I think Arcane Blast would have been a better choice for the initial Arcane spell.

Interesting point. I don't know, really. Obviously Arcane Blast is the tree's bread & butter spell, but Arcane Barrage is pretty nifty as well. It's a lot more engaging than standing still and cooking up a nuke, anyway. And it encourages playing around with moving and using instants rather than just standing still and donning the old fireball-fireball-fireball hat.

You could argue that Pyroblast sucks for this reason, but the thing with Pyro is that it's actually thrilling to see such a huge spell going off because you know it's going to put an enourmous dent in the enemy's health bar.
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#7 Jul 14 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
Eh, I guess Arcane Barrage is nifty. Especially at lower levels it's nice from the standpoint that you can use it to finish off a mob instead of having to pull out your wand. I don't know though, just because I rarely use ABarr while I'm out doing dailies and stuff currently.
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#8 Jul 15 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Good
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Looks like arcane is pretty screwed as PvE - If you want to go past 17 points in it you have to pick up a lot of trash in the tree, but you can't spend the amount you're left over with in other trees without picking up even more.

Fire power has been castrated. Which reminds me, weren't talents supposed to be getting more interesting and less passive damage boosts and ****? Because that hasn't really happened. If anything, the opposite has; lots of the more interesting abilities, like barrage and the water elemental, have been put into the communal pot.

Quote:
Repulsion - Looks like a good pvp talent


Eh.
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#9 Jul 15 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Default
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I love that frost seems to be top **** in PvE so far. REALLY love it. Arcane can wallow in self pity a while for all I give a ****.
On a side note, speccing into the threat in the Arcane tree brings my Frost Mage's frostbolt cast time to .78 seconds unbuffed. Essentially, that makes Icy Veins... useless.
Granted, I'm sure there's other stuff that will be at play and this isn't my 85 raiding gear, but that seems a bit overkill. IV + Heroism will = .2 second frostbolts on an (assumably) 1 second GCD.....
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#10 Jul 15 2010 at 9:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Looks like arcane is pretty screwed as PvE - If you want to go past 17 points in it you have to pick up a lot of trash in the tree, but you can't spend the amount you're left over with in other trees without picking up even more.

Fire power has been castrated. Which reminds me, weren't talents supposed to be getting more interesting and less passive damage boosts and sh*t? Because that hasn't really happened. If anything, the opposite has; lots of the more interesting abilities, like barrage and the water elemental, have been put into the communal pot.

Quote:
Repulsion - Looks like a good pvp talent


Eh.


The passive damage boost are supposed to be baked into your mastery. it should work out to be the same.Notice that flame throwing is also gone. Also baked in.

Plus it is not communal, those are specialization spells you get by selecting a specialization. Instead of spending points to get those, they are given when you select.
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#11 Jul 16 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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cancerous wrote:
Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Looks like arcane is pretty screwed as PvE - If you want to go past 17 points in it you have to pick up a lot of trash in the tree, but you can't spend the amount you're left over with in other trees without picking up even more.

Fire power has been castrated. Which reminds me, weren't talents supposed to be getting more interesting and less passive damage boosts and sh*t? Because that hasn't really happened. If anything, the opposite has; lots of the more interesting abilities, like barrage and the water elemental, have been put into the communal pot.

Quote:
Repulsion - Looks like a good pvp talent


Eh.


The passive damage boost are supposed to be baked into your mastery. it should work out to be the same.Notice that flame throwing is also gone. Also baked in.

Plus it is not communal, those are specialization spells you get by selecting a specialization. Instead of spending points to get those, they are given when you select.


Ah, I see. I haven't been paying attention for some time; just popped in again to see if there was anything that might entice me to come back.
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#12 Jul 16 2010 at 3:45 AM Rating: Decent
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well I just kept half or a quarter of a eye on the game for the 5-6 mths of not playing the game and not buying pre-paid game time cards.

I know the masteries were going to replace most of the mandatory passive talents. Fire power's original stats and empowered fire have their stats baked into fire mastery. Flame throwing is now in mastery. What I did not expect was that talent trees were getting pruned.

And pruned trees also had something else to go with it. a new specialization system. Quite amazing cos for frost, at level 10 you will get the water elemental. Which I am quite certain will have its duration scale according to level.

Arcane needs a lot of work. and a blue post mentioned that as well which means something might be done to either allow arcane blast to be learnt earlier or to bake it in and let you talent barrage... which is going to be strange in any case...
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#13 Jul 18 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm pretty disgusted by the current state of mages, to tell the truth. And I pointed this out in the general thread, but Arcane has NO main nuke until level 36, when they first get Arcane Blast. Until then you'll be using Frostbolts to try and get AM to light up. And that means your mastery is basically useless as it is only going to apply to like 30% of your damage, max. Unless they make AM really strong. But that would be lame, since then you'd be using really weak spells hoping to get the RNG to let you actually do some damage.

Pyroblast is currently the same cast time as Fireball for 8% more base mana. So you will just be replacing a Fireball with it every so often (I'm assuming the debuff doesn't stack, so the optimal DpS will depend on x ticks before you use the spell again). You don't get Hot streak for quite a while. And it is even longer until you actually get a use out of it. It requires 3 crits in a span of 6 seconds to work. That's gonna be rough until you get Living Bomb. Assuming your DoTs off of the nukes can't crit, then you'll need to watch for when you get two crits in a row and hit Fire Blast and hope it crits, just so you get an instant Pyro. And that means you'll have to have FB macroed with a /stopcasting so you can use it before the window of opportunity closes, which will be lost DpS if it doesn't crit.

I'm not pleased with how things are working now. Two specs just seem like they suck (Fire longer than Arcane). Only Frost makes any sense from a leveling standpoint right now. Endgame too, for that matter.

[EDIT]

And let's be blunt, the only reason that Frost isn't f*cked up is because Blizz didn't touch it. They basically just took any talent that wasn't a +% damage or a cast time reduction and put it in the tree, moving the elemental to level 10. And they made Shatter get gradually better--it'll suck when you first get it but be great when geared. Other than that, is there ANYTHING new about Frost? Nope.

Though Early Frost looks stupid to me. It's only a 3% haste buff or so if you use a Fbolt EVERY 15 seconds. If you get FoF/BF procs, it's gonna be lower. I'll have to see how it works out with sims regarding haste levels in Cata.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 3:32am by idiggory
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#14 Jul 18 2010 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
Actually Mastery won't be unlocked until level 75, so it doesn't really make a difference on that perspective, that you don't get Arcane Blast until 36. I absolutely agree with you on every other point though, and I need to remember to make that suggestion in the beta. If they're going to make Arcane Missiles a proc spell, they should swap what levels they give mages Arcane Missiles and Arcane Blast.

That might be part of the reason why I've been focusing on my goblin. I know I said that I would play around with my mage some once I finished the goblin starting areas, but I just have no interest in touching her. She bores me at this point. I'm curious about the new leveling areas for sure, but I just don't care about my mage right now. It makes me really sad, considering how much time I've put into her over the last two years, but what can you do?
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#15 Jul 18 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Hold up here. What level do you get AB in live? 50ish? What do you do until then? Arcane Missiles spam is too mana intensive.
Blizzard said their goal in Cata is to make all 3 specs of a class VIABLE if not OPTIMAL.
For Vanilla and BC, fire mages were top sh*t. In LK, Arcane mages were. In Cata, it appears to be Frost (It is undergoing the least changes for Cata because it saw a TON of changes in the life of LK).
Why the hate?
Also, I dunno about at level 10, but at level 80, Pyroblast does more than double Fireball's damage, and more than quadruple its DoT, for only a half second longer cast. Seems fair to me, though I'll admit I'd rather see LB as their level 10 ability.

Edit: Early frost confuses me a bit. The way it's worded is odd, and it just seems to apply the haste buff once in a blue moon. It's either glitched, or it's supposed to be more random than it reads. Of course, even without the early frost buff, I'm kicking out .77 second frostbolts. I'm sure more tuning will come with gear, but level 80 gear got most of its spellpower converted to int and more haste. Since I gem haste / SP (SP gems ARE still in the game!), it came as a bit of a shock.
I'll also note that mage spells hit for WAY less damage. On live, frostbolt hits for around 7K. In Beta, we're talking more like 2K.
Edit 2: Ok, I figured it out. Frostbolt is only hitting for an average of 3500 on beta, because the masteries do not seem to be working right.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 1:21pm by jaysgsl
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#16 Jul 18 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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That's TERRIBLE logic. What you are basically saying is "It isn't viable now, so who cares if it is viable in Cata?" Might as well say the same thing about Frost in endgame.

Plus, Arcane isn't so bad right now. You never even come close to going OOM with Frost, especially with BoAs, so the higher cost of AM doesn't matter. It's actually not that much larger, anyway, since even though AM is expensive it does far more damage. I see plenty of people leveling with it now, especially if they do a lot of dungeons, and they go whole runs without drinking and doing fine DpS. Frost doesn't get way better until Deep Freeze is available, since it is balanced for level 80.
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#17 Jul 18 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
Actually on live you get Arcane Blast at 64. Or at least that's when I got it on my mage. I'm not whining because I want Arcane to stay top dog. I don't really care about that, I'm talking about making it a viable leveling spec. It's absolutely retarded to make a low level Arcane specced mage have to cast Firebolt or Frostbolt to light up Arcane Missiles. It just doesn't make sense. If they want Arcane to be a viable leveling spec, they should give mages Arcane Blast at around level 10 or earlier, that's all I'm saying.
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#18 Jul 18 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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I thought Abarr was learned at level 10 specialization?
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#19 Jul 18 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Diggory, I don't quite what you're saying here;
Quote:
Until then you'll be using Frostbolts to try and get AM to light up.


It might be me being confused (rather sleepy atm), but take another close look at the tree as it currently is and notice two things;

1) WOTLK-style Arcane Barrage is completely gone. There is no more "using spell A to get an Arc. Barrage proc for a quick AM" at all.
2) The new Arcane Barrage, along with Imp. Arcane Missiles, it's prerequisite, are attainable relatively quickly, and improve Arcane Barrage.

3) Not necissarily a talent thing, but it has been mentioned time and time again that mana is virtually a zero point while leveling now.

From what I'm seeing here, it seems that Arcane Missiles will be Arcane's 'main nuke' while leveling, rather than Arcane Blast.
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#20 Jul 18 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Moz, take a moment and think about the names of things.

ARCANE Barrage is an instant spell. MISSILE barrage is a talent that increases the cast speed of AM.

MBAM is the abbreviation for Missile Barrage, generally. Abarr is Arcane Barrage.

At level 10, mages get Abarr if they spec Arcane.

This means their abilities are:

Frostbolt
Fireball
Arcane Missiles
Arcane Barrage (instant that is buffed by AB but doesn't consume it anymore).

AM is no longer a basic nuke. You need to use spells to "proc" it, which will then let you use it. I imagine it's a % chance thing on each cast. And it doesn't cost any mana, from what I understand.

So, an Arcane Mage without Arcane Blast has to spam Frostbolts or Fireballs to try and get their AM spell to pop up for use. You'll likely use Frostbolt so that you can talent Torment the Weak. So your rotation will be identical to Frost's, except they also have a pet doing damage and get the utility of Frost Bite/Shatter/Permafrost and a buff to their frost damage. You only really get AM buffed, and that's dependent on the RNG to use.

Considering the purpose of specializing was to make you feel connected to your spec, the fact that you are playing like a gimped Frost Mage as Arcane until level 36, when you finally get your basic nuke is a huge problem. They should give you Arcane Blast at level 10 and make you either talent Abarr or get it at a higher level. Especially, since it is buffed by AB without consuming charges, it seems to me that it's going to be more like Ice Lance in that it has pitiful damage when used without. Doesn't sound useful, imo.

[EDIT]

Just to add:

You specialize as a Frost Mage and you get a Water Elemental. Right away you really feel like a Frost Mage--distinct.

As a Fire mage, you get Pyro. Personally, this means crap to me. I don't find it interesting at all. Pyro is now identical to Fball in cast time. So it's just a nuke that costs more for much more damage. I'm assuming you'll use it every 12 seconds for the DoT effect. I don't think this really makes you feel like a Fire Mage any more than a fireball does, since that's all it is, but bigger. I think Dragon's Breath or Living Bomb would have been better. But I see why the latter wasn't used at least. I imagine they did it just because they would have needed to give it to you before Hot Streak anyway.

But Arcane Barrage? You get a fairly wimpy instant spell and don't even get to use Arcane spells much, since most of your casts come from another tree. And your first talent points go to buffing your Frostbolts, primarily, from TtW. It would have been more interesting to give them Slow. And, frankly, probably more effective for leveling, so you'd have another tool to manage adds.

It would be like giving Unholy DKs Unholy Blight instead of Scourge Strike. You'd have to wait to get your main ability and deal with a crappy minor bonus until then.

[EDIT2]

AM is a 30% chance to proc on offensive spell casts. And it will apparently be useful for every spec until Frost/Fire replace it with Pyro/FFB or FB.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 8:44pm by idiggory
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#21 Jul 18 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Default
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Where the heck do you get the idea that Pyroblast is the same cast time as Fireball? I CLEARLY explained it's a half second difference, and more than a double damage difference.
You're not reading, you're putting on glasses that have "Cataclysm sucks because they're making me think about how to play my classes differently" printed on the inside of the lenses.
Not every single class is going to get some super uber nuke as their level 10 spec. Ret pallies get Divine Storm currently, which SUCKS for single target now (really). BM hunters get Intimidation! Again, not every spec is going to get an ubernuke, so Arcane getting an instant cast spell isn't the end of the world. It actually fills a role that I wish was filled for frost at lower levels. The cooldown isn't terribly long at 6 seconds.
Arcane is the 'PvP' spec of Cata, it seems. People need to wrap their head around this concept.
Things change, get used to it. (hahaha)
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#22 Jul 18 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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I was just using WoWhead's information, which was saying it was a 3.5 second cast with a 12 second DoT.

Though it is now saying it's a 5 second cast (literally changed when I hit the backspace by accident, then went forward again).

Are you talking about Pyro with Haste or without? What are the default cast times? WoWhead says FB's cast at level 10 is 2.45 seconds and it is capped out at 3.5 by level 20.

[EDIT]

And I never said they should get an "ubernuke." I don't think it's a ridiculous claim to say that it should get a STANDARD nuke. You know, what Frostbolt and Fireball are to Frost/Fire.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 9:06pm by idiggory
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#23 Jul 18 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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Gah! Dig, you're right. Arcane Barrage, Arcane Missiles, Missile Barrage and Arcane Blast. And to make it even easier, Arcane Potency, Arcane Concentration, Arcane Flows, Arcane Tactics and Arcane Repulsion. What the Arcane tree needs right now is more talent names that start with 'Arcane'.

In regards to Pyro; I like it because it is that long. It might not be 'the most effective spell' before Hot Streak, but throwing a huge meteor in a mob's face does kind of define the fire spec to me. I have no clue what they're turning it into, though...
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#24 Jul 18 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Mozared wrote:
Gah! Dig, you're right. Arcane Barrage, Arcane Missiles, Missile Barrage and Arcane Blast. And to make it even easier, Arcane Potency, Arcane Concentration, Arcane Flows, Arcane Tactics and Arcane Repulsion. What the Arcane tree needs right now is more talent names that start with 'Arcane'.

In regards to Pyro; I like it because it is that long. It might not be 'the most effective spell' before Hot Streak, but throwing a huge meteor in a mob's face does kind of define the fire spec to me. I have no clue what they're turning it into, though...


I gotta admit charging "casting" that big wrecking ball of fire and flinging it at a hapless mob/player gives me great pleasure.

Interestingly enough mobs in leveling zones still melt to that spell rather quickly. I guess that is effective.
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bodhisattva, Defender of Justice wrote:

The first week he was all "ZOMG just happy to be here, killing bosses! I just want to raid", 2nd week there was grumbling, 3rd week he is about ready to emoplode


tigole wrote:
You won't like the ones made to your own class but you'll think the changes made to the 9 other classes are all overpowered.
#25 Jul 18 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Default
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3,157 posts
Pyro is freakin' awesome at low levels. It does a TON more damage than Fireball (perceived, not necessarily realistic), and the wind up for that big bomb is cool as ****.
Barrage is PERFECT for the new goals of Arcane: PvP.
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#26 Jul 19 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
As long as we're using proper names for clarity:

idiggory wrote:
MBAM is the abbreviation for Missile Barrage, generally.


I've never heard a Mage say this. Mbarr, sure, since it implies you're actually going to use the proc; but MBAM is a new one to me. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 3:17pm by Norellicus
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