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Blood will be the ONLY Tank SpecFollow

#1 Apr 06 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Announced by GC ahead of time, Blood will become a tanking tree, similar to a paladin's Protection tree. Frost will be a dual-wield dps tree, with Unholy a disease and pet class tree, much like they are today.

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Ghostcrawler wrote:
We're doing our Cataclysm preview on the death knight changes later this week, but we knew one change risked overshadowing all the others, so we figured we'd go ahead and drop the proverbial Blood bomb today.

In Cataclysm, death knights will have a dedicated tanking tree, much like the other three tank classes. That tree will be Blood.

We’ll go into more detail in the upcoming preview, but we wanted to take the opportunity to explain the reasoning for such a big change.

Why the about face? We actually thought the “tri tank” experiment worked out okay. We suspected there would always be a “best” tanking tree, because that’s the way these things shake out, but we hoped it would be close enough that many players could tank with their favorite tree. When we tried out this design for Wrath of the Lich King, we were using it as a test case to see if we wanted to do similar things with the warrior and paladin talent trees.

A lot has happened since that time. We introduced the dual-spec feature, allowing players to have a tanking spec and dps spec that they could switch between. We introduced Dungeon Finder, which makes it easier to find players who want to tank, and even let players level up using a dedicated tank spec. In Cataclysm, we are introducing the concept of passive talent tree bonuses and we think that feature is a lot stronger when the talent tree has a particular focus (such as damage, tanking or healing). For example, it’s safer to give more passive damage to a tanking tree than we can a dps tree. Above all, we were just spending a lot of effort trying to balance three trees (though it was really six trees, since each tree was trying to do two things).

It started to feel unfair to the other tank classes that we had to spend so much effort tweaking three types of DK tanks, and it even started to feel unfair to the DK that we couldn’t focus their tanking experience. One bit of feedback that really struck home was the DK players who said, essentially, “I look at the Protection tree and I’m jealous of all of the cool tools they have to help their tanking. As a DK, I have to pick and choose tanking talents from within a sea of dps talents.” Rather than have a strong focus, the trees felt a little watered down because they were trying to do so much. With Frost as a dual-wield, spell and runic power focused tree, Unholy as a disease and minion focused tree, and Blood as a self-healing, defensive cooldown, tanking tree, we think the focus of each tree is a lot clearer and cooler.

In Cataclysm, Blood will be the death knight version of a Protection tree. It will have passive talent tree bonuses that reflect tanking. It will have tools, such as a Demo Shout equivalent, necessary for tanking. Several of the more fun tanking talents from Frost and Unholy will be moved into Blood. We will be able to revise (or even remove) clunky mechanics like Rune Strike and focus on letting DKs generate threat with their normal Blood tanking rotation.

This is major change, and we understand it will be met with some disappointment from players who really liked the flexibility, those who appreciated the unorthodox talent tree design, or those few of you who really liked Blood dps. Nevertheless, we are convinced that this is the right change for the game.

More exciting death knight news coming up soon in the preview.
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#2 Apr 06 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is major change, and we understand it will be met with some disappointment from players who really liked the flexibility, those who appreciated the unorthodox talent tree design, or those few of you who really liked Blood dps.

I guess I'm one of those people who really liked the flexibility and the unorthodox design. I really liked it how every tree kind of 'worked' and had it's own specialization, though I can very well see why they make this change. If they think it's better for the game, then I'm willing to accept that and trust in that it will end up being loads of fun in a different way than I expected anyway.

Still though, there's a part of me that weeps over the idea of no-more blood-PvP.

Edited, Apr 7th 2010 1:39am by Mozared
#3 Apr 06 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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I died a little.
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#4 Apr 06 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Still though, there's a part of me that weeps over the idea of no-more blood-PvP.


Kind of like how there's no more Prot Warrior PvP?
#5 Apr 06 2010 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, this pretty much means I'm shelving my DK if I play in Cata. I just don't like the Blood tree.
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#6 Apr 06 2010 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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I wanted to tank again (almost bought the gear), but I won't be tanking with a Blood build. Tanking, to me, was all about heroics and as such, AOE. Blood AOE tanking is not my thing. Howling Blast, yes pl0x. Cleave Strike, no thanks.
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#7 Apr 07 2010 at 1:09 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
I died a little.


GC wrote:
With Frost as a dual-wield, spell and runic power focused tree, Unholy as a disease and minion focused tree, and Blood as a self-healing, defensive cooldown, tanking tree, we think the focus of each tree is a lot clearer and cooler.


That is where the knife twists.


I am hoping they let sub frost vs sub unholy add some flavor to how the DK tank works. The trees still maxing at 51 and the extra 5 points may still allow for some flexibility in stylistic differences with a DK tank.

edit : quote fail



Edited, Apr 7th 2010 3:10am by Horsemouth
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#8 Apr 07 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I saw this some where while reading about the change:

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So you will be blood spec'd to tank in frost presence but use frost spec ion blood presence?


Makes me wonder what they will do with the 3 presences and the trees.
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#9 Apr 07 2010 at 6:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I died a little.

You were still tanking in frost?

Quote:
Kind of like how there's no more Prot Warrior PvP?

Yes and no. Technically, any class can PvP while being specced into any of his three trees. I just don't expect Blood to be very succesful anymore if it's turned into a proper tank and tank-only tree. Though yes, I guess we don't know what's going to happen to PvP altogether.
#10 Apr 07 2010 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mozared wrote:
Quote:
I died a little.

You were still tanking in frost?


Much prefer the style over Unholy and Blood.
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#11 Apr 07 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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Mazra wrote:
Mozared wrote:
Quote:
I died a little.

You were still tanking in frost?


Much prefer the style over Unholy and Blood.


I HATE blood and unholy tanking. I have since the beginning of DK's been a frost tank. I leveled as a frost tank before dual spec was available, and exclusively been a frost tank. I am beyond upset with this. This is game breaking for me.

This is like telling priests "We're sorry. We want focus on only one healing tree. Discipline will now be THE healing tree and holy will now be a DPS tree.". Its completely ridiculous.
#12 Apr 07 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
idiggory wrote:
Yeah, this pretty much means I'm shelving my DK if I play in Cata. I just don't like the Blood tree.


I thought you canceled your subscription already. If you did, then this has no affect on you, right?

I was a little sad because I really enjoyed dpsing as blood, however it was always lower dps for me than unholy (blame all the bosses with aoe), so while I'll miss blood dps, I'm glad they chose blood to be the dedicated tank tree, I think it is the best choice of the three.

In addition, they've always had trouble making 3 viable tank AND dps trees (only class that has had that) and while it was a cool concept, every time they had to change tanking as a whole, DKs required 3 changes for every 1 change in other classes. This increases the chances of ******** something up, so for simplicity sake I like it.

Unholy = 2h dps
Frost = DW dps
Blood = tank

Sure we're now a bit more like warriors, but I'm OK with that.

EDIT: It looks like people don't really have a problem with having a single tank tree, it's more Blizzard didn't pick the tree they wanted. Personally I would never have tanked again if I had to do it as frost (though I enjoy frost dps). So as pissy as some of you are that they chose blood to be tank, there'd be just as many people pissy if they chose frost (or god forbid, unholy).

Edited, Apr 7th 2010 4:34pm by Dilbrt
#13 Apr 07 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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I thought you canceled your subscription already. If you did, then this has no affect on you, right?


I still have time to play until later this month--I was hoping the Cata change announcements would make me excited to play it. So far, I am not thrilled. But at least tomorrow we'll learn more about some classes.

But, yeah, if I don't hear something I like, I just won't be playing Cata. Kinda stupid to continue playing a game for no reason when you don't even enjoy it (the last part being the key).
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#14REDACTED, Posted: Apr 07 2010 at 7:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The problem I have is that decisions like this should have been made BEFORE Lich King was released. This is completely unprecedented as far as I know.
#15 Apr 07 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Decent
If playing a single spec is the only reason for playing a class, then yes you should quit playing the class. If all you do is play a warrior to play prot, then you will be screwed since there are fights that require 3 tanks and other fights that require 1. The time of being 100% one spec has come and gone. Take mages... if you leveled a mage to play fire and only fire, then what will you do if fire gets nerfed... quit mage? That's acting like a crybaby.

If the spec you're playing is changed, adapt! I learned how to tank and dps as all 3 trees. Why? So I can switch easily between any spec and be able to play it.

Seriously, if you're really going to quit because of a GOOD DECISION that Blizzard made, then nothing is going to make you happy. If you don't quit over this, you'll just find something else to quit over later down the road. If you don't have the ability to adapt, then you don't fit with the direction that Blizzard decided to go years ago.
#16 Apr 08 2010 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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ekaterinodar wrote:
Had I known my favorite tanking spec was going to be completely blown out of the water I'd have never bothered leveling a DK. Had I know my favorite DPS spec was being completely removed a couple of years later I'd have never bothered leveling a DK.

You've spent some time enjoying it in the now, right? So it was worth doing.

Quote:
The problem I have is that decisions like this should have been made BEFORE Lich King was released. This is completely unprecedented as far as I know.

As I understand it, the DK tanking with all three trees thing was an experiment. To decide where you're gonna go based on the results of an experiment you haven't even concluded would have been silly of them.

Personally, I'm excited. To be able to access many of the fun tools currently spread across the trees all at once sounds divine. I can't wait to see where this goes. I'm not saying don't be doom and gloom, just to wait until you see what they do before you say you hate it.
#17 Apr 08 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Default
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Dilbrt wrote:
If all you do is play a warrior to play prot, then you will be screwed since there are fights that require 3 tanks and other fights that require 1.


But when you move onto the next encounter that requires two the warrior returns to protection. So your argument is null and void and completely off base with my own argument.

Take away the warrior's ability to tank in protection and you now have a similar situation. Or telling fury warriors they are now dual wielding tanks and will no longer have dps functionality.



Quote:
The time of being 100% one spec has come and gone. Take mages... if you leveled a mage to play fire and only fire, then what will you do if fire gets nerfed... quit mage? That's acting like a crybaby.


Hmm...difference between nerfing and completely removing the functionality of a class. Imagine, if you will, them telling combat rogues they can no longer DPS at all in combat spec. Instead they must now solely be a healer if they wish to play combat or move to Assassination or Subtlety. Again yet another failed argument. Even a nerfed fire mage can still continue to play the role of DPS.

Quote:
If the spec you're playing is changed, adapt! I learned how to tank and dps as all 3 trees. Why? So I can switch easily between any spec and be able to play it.


My tanking spec is being removed. Not changed. Lets take away your DPS spec and see how well you can adapt to DPSing with it...


Quote:
Seriously, if you're really going to quit because of a GOOD DECISION that Blizzard made, then nothing is going to make you happy. If you don't quit over this, you'll just find something else to quit over later down the road. If you don't have the ability to adapt, then you don't fit with the direction that Blizzard decided to go years ago.


Or maybe I don't like the idea of investing time and effort into a class only to have an entire spec not nerfed, but totally removed. There is a significant difference between NERFING and REMOVING functionality. Yes, I played DK solely to play Frost tank. Just like many priests pick up the priest just to heal, druids just to tank, and paladins just to DPS.

Your argument that I'm simply an unadaptive sissy crybaby is laughable at best. The only real thing I got out of your post was "blah blah I'm a ********* I don't agree with you. I have no valid counter argument so I'm going to resort to demeaning remarks because I'm a blood tank and am happy because my spec will now be the only tanking spec".

Edited, Apr 8th 2010 3:31am by ekaterinodar
#18 Apr 08 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Good
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I sense much butt hurt here. Yes, the butt hurt is strong.
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#19 Apr 08 2010 at 6:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't understand how this is a surprise. After all the tweaking and changes and mucking about that we've had to deal with, it make perfect sense. Experimenting with hybrid DPS/tank talents across all three trees was a pretty cool idea that sorta worked. Most of the time. But it's not really shocking that they need to backtrack from the experiment.

The blue post pointed out the major problem with the DK tress as they are now: you have to balance them twice. Once for DPS and once for tanking. That's a lot of extra time that could be utilized elsewhere in the development areas. The dev team has other things to deal with and I'm sure an inordinate amount of time has been spent trying to make the DK trees live up to the dream. There comes a time when you have to admit that an idea just ain't working. Glad they're finally doing it.

Personally, I love both DPS and tanking in frost, though I dabble in blood. Losing frost tanking makes me a little sad, sure. But nothing compared to how annoying it is to have major respecs (and having to re-theory craft everything) with every patch as Blizz tries to balance the mess they made with their experiment. I have a ton of respect for the dev team for trying it out. Sadly, it just didn't work out in an applicable way.

Do I wish the hybrid tress worked? Yes.

Am I surprised they didn't? Nope.



We should expect to see pretty major changes to each tree in the xpac. So it's a bit early yet to have opinions about how each tree will play. Sure, I don't love unholy as it is now. But in the xpac, it won't be the way it is now. It'll be how it is then. And then it'll be different after they change it again.

And we'll have to respec again. Le sigh.

=)
#20 Apr 08 2010 at 8:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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TherionSaysWhat, Assassin Reject wrote:

We should expect to see pretty major changes to each tree in the xpac. So it's a bit early yet to have opinions about how each tree will play. Sure, I don't love unholy as it is now. But in the xpac, it won't be the way it is now. It'll be how it is then. And then it'll be different after they change it again.

And we'll have to respec again. Le sigh.

=)


Well everyone will get at least 1 free respec when Cata drops. If not then damn, ruthless Blizz is ruthless.
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#21 Apr 08 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
ekaterinodar wrote:
Again yet another failed argument.

I'm actually gonna give you this one, there really isn't any valid comparison for a class that can potentially have 6 different playstyles that has had it reduced to 3. Even Druid making feral only tanking wouldn't be a fair comparison, because then you'd be eliminating the ability to be melee dps, and DKs can still be melee dps, just not as blood. I still think you are being really inflexible about it though.

ekaterinodar wrote:
My tanking spec is being removed. Not changed. Lets take away your DPS spec and see how well you can adapt to DPSing with it...

They did! I leveled two DKs on beta both as blood (though the second one I did a few levels as frost and a few as unholy, then went back to blood) and then I have spent most of this expansion pack as blood dps, and I will never be able to do it again. I spent more time researching how to play blood dps than any other spec Dks have, it's wasted as you put. I learned early on how to tank as all 3 and how to dps as all 3. Just because I currently now play unholy and frost doesn't mean I don't mourn the loss of probably my favorite dps spec. I'll move on though, you don't want to.

ekaterinodar wrote:
Or maybe I don't like the idea of investing time and effort into a class only to have an entire spec not nerfed, but totally removed.

Who does? I spent a ton of time refining my ability to make good macros and actually bought an $80 keyboard for macro-based hunter dps. Now that time (and money) was a complete waste because that style of gameplay is gone, but you don't hear me QQing about it. I've adapted and moved on. You have your eyes so focused on what you're losing and are ignoring how this is a good thing. Less complexity in terms of talent trees increases the chances that DKs will not be underpowered at tanking. As things are right now they have to make so many changes to different trees (or change a baseline ability like they did IBF, which is worse) that it increases the chance to ***** things up.

Edited, Apr 8th 2010 1:20pm by Dilbrt
#22 Apr 08 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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I do find the choice of which tree to change odd though. I get the DW vs. 2H vs. Tanking argument, of course. It's just awkward because Frost has been the most popular spec, I think, for the entirity of the DK's existence. Different specs have performed best at endgame. It's currently Blood, I think, with Unholy performing better on certain fights?

But for the vast majority of tanks--those that run Heroics or raid, just not at the cutting edge, Frost seems to be far more common. Especially in Heroics, where a lot of players hate losing HB. And, as to DpS, Blood seems to be really popular with DW Frost being second (even though Unholy performs really well atm, I rarely see DKs specced into it).

So it feels like they are simultaneously taking away the most popular DpS and Tank specs. Even if the overall theory is logical, the practical application seems awkward.

What I would have done is have made the main tank spec Frost, shifted DW to Unholy (as much as I love it as 2-hand), and have let Blood be the main 2-hand spec.

It would have been more work, probably, but it would be closer to player opinion. Besides, it wouldn't be hard to switch the specs. 2 of the biggest DW talents are already in the Unholy tree... Put ToT and DWS in Unholy, move Necrosis to early Frost and BCB to Blood. Keeps a DW spec, though they'd lose HB, and let's the most popular DpS and Tank specs remain.
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#23 Apr 08 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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I play a Blood DPS /Frost Tank DK and this change just plain upsets me. I played Blood DPS because that's the way I liked DPS'ing, I don't like Dual Wielding and I don't like having a pet ghoul and relying on magic damage and just the playstyle of Frost or Unholy DPS. I tanked as Frost for the same reason Mazra stuck with it; easy consistant AoE tanking with good ST threat and easy to understand and use tanking CD's. I tried blood tanking and hated it because the AoE just sucked and I have never tried Unholy because I just don't WANT to play Unholy....

In reality I'm just pissed they just made Blood DPS and Frost Tanking obsolete, but I am damn sure I'm not the only one. I always felt that frost was the better tanking tree anyway from a gameplay/ lore point of view (ice= armor= less damage rather than, HEY I CAN BLEED MORE NOW!....)

Whatever, I made my druid my main relatively recently, but I'll try out DK DPS in Cata and see how it works out, nobody likes it when things they like change.... but change does need to happen and I'll just roll with the ounches as everyone else will have to if they want to continue enjoying this game.
#24 Apr 08 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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You bring up a good point, Katchii, Blood was the tree that was the least "gimicky" of them all. I don't say this in any kind of condescending way (hey, my favorite tree is Unholy). I mean that DW Frost has always been kind a gimick, as it wasn't competitive in any real sense until this patch (and it is really only viable now, from what I have heard, still not competing for top DpS--just aren't bottom any more). Unholy, due to the pet and talents like CE/WP always seemed gimicky. Sure, the pet and WP were very effective, but not all players care solely about results. And some hate managing pets.

Blood was the tree that was just the most... normal? Primarily physical DpS with a small amount of magical damage thrown in. Self healing was gimicky, but has always been down played so it isn't an issue (if all the self heals were removed, it wouldn't be a HUGE change, like it would if Unholy lost the perma-pet).

Now, players that want to play their DK as a physical class are out of luck. Which sucks. And those that want to be a Magical tank can't, which also sucks. They should have made Frost the tank spec, just because it's kinda the bridge between the two extremes.
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#25 Apr 08 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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If you think Unholy has to manage a pet you have never played the spec. I only use the pet to know when I am behind the boss. Otherwise the little bugger does his own thing. The pet is not a hunter or even a lock pet that has abilities that need to be managed.

Also Frost has become a highly competitive DPS spec. Frost DKs are replacing shammies in 25 man raids as they do more damage and ele/resto can cover the other totems easily. Which is why enhance is currently getting buffed as a Frost DK brings the buff in a better and more comprehensive fashion.

As for Frost tanking I feel people only like it for tanking because they are lazy when they do heroics and want to be to lolHB-Aggro packs instead of work to hold mobs, not that I can blame them. Which is extra unneeded given the recent IT change, which tbh is ridiculous and wont last for long me thinks at its current level.

Frost is only a popular heroic spec, I rarely ever see DW Frost in a raid, just like I usually see Frost and Unholy as the raid DPS specs. This change will have minimal impact on raiders for their spec of choice and is really only reinforcing what the raiding community has been trending towards anyway.

Regardless, the DK Cata preview is today so hopefully that will shed some more light on the subject and help clarify the discussion.
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#26 Apr 08 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't have to micromanage as other classes do, but that's not what I meant. There are players that HATE having to ever deal with them--sending them in, calling them back so they don't die, resummoning if they do, activating GF (if for whatever reason you took it because your ghoul DOES die).

The biggest complaint I hear is that pets are always in your way when trying to target mobs when soloing/looting (especially since you can't tab to corpses). And I can accept that this gets annoying enough that you just rather not have one. I have a friend who just won't play a Lock/Hunter because having to deal with the targeting thing drives him insane.

As to Frost vs. Enh Shaman, they ONLY do better DpS if there is at least one Enh shaman in the raid already, because they need their 20% haste to be viable. So they aren't replacing them, per se. At best, when considering ADDITIONAL units that fall into that department, neither of which will be bringing buffs, Frost DKs do better DpS. But, I still can't find any recent info about DKs. I'll see what I can find on WoLs later, I suppose.

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