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#23302 Aug 07 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Stuff.
The hard part is my old drug just isn't doing it for me anymore. Went back, and couldn't stand it for more than a month. Smiley: frown
WoW?

I'm in that same position. WoW's just not interesting anymore.

I pre-ordered FFXIV. Hope that keeps my attention.
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#23303 Aug 07 2013 at 2:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Stuff.
The hard part is my old drug just isn't doing it for me anymore. Went back, and couldn't stand it for more than a month. Smiley: frown
WoW?
Yup.

The hard thing is my time-to-boredom with nearly any game is about 3-4 months. That's how long I'll usually want to play something before I'll just tire of it and want a change. With MMOs that's not nearly enough time for me to reach end-game. Mainly because I like to experiment around with different playstyles before choosing one, and I don't have nearly the amount of time I used to for gaming.

But I can make other excuses too:

TERA: Stale story and horrible quests.
SWTOR: "already-did-that' combat model, interesting story elements too spread out at higher levels.
Skyrim: Didn't really care to finish the story; it never really drew me in.
DA:O : Combat replay wasn't there, each re-roll felt like the last one since you're really playing all 4 characters each time.
RCT3: Want something more challenging.
Diablo3: Playing the same awful story 4 times is no fun, kiting everything got old.

That's pretty much my gaming history since quitting WoW. DA:O is the only one of those I even finished/end-gamed... Smiley: lol
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#23304 Aug 07 2013 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
What do you guys mean by a sandbox game?

I personally really enjoy Elder Scroll Games, but I've yet to beat either Oblivion or Skyrim. I get too distracted doing the side quests and I never end up finishing the main quest. It's a problem. I loved beating DA:O though, that was a fantastic story. DA2 was enjoyable, but it just didn't feel as epic as the first one. Being the savior of the world is much more awesome than being the Champion of a city.
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#23305 Aug 07 2013 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
What do you guys mean by a sandbox game?
Generally highly customizable, with few limits on key elements. So for example Skyrim's character development would be "sandbox" like when compared to WoW's where you get put into a class and all your abilities are basically pre-determined.

A sandboxy game would allow for more creativity and tinkering, but can balance a pain the **** in an MMO setting since you basically have an exponentially large number of potential builds to take into account. The "sandbox" label can spread to other elements of the game as well, building/decorating your own house, altering the world, customizing the look/color of your armor, etc. etc. If you played Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, that was a civilization game with customizable units for example, very sandboxy.

My take at least. Smiley: grin

Also, ditto for me on the elder scrolls games. Smiley: lol

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 1:54pm by someproteinguy
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#23306 Aug 07 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
RCT3: Want something more challenging.
RCT3 is all about the sandbox and just building a theme park (or even just a ride). It's 99.9% a sandbox building game and 0.1% scenarios that are too easy.
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#23307 Aug 07 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
RCT3: Want something more challenging.
RCT3 is all about the sandbox and just building a theme park (or even just a ride). It's 99.9% a sandbox building game and 0.1% scenarios that are too easy.
I suppose, but the scenarios are half the fun of the sandbox for me. You know, tinker around, create something, and then see how it preforms. If the bar you have to clear is too low then tinkering kind of loses it's fun. Like create a character build and then try it out, design a unit and fight with it, design a roller coaster and see if it can pull in enough people to pass a scenario, or something.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy just free creativity to some extent, but without some application for it my interest will start to fade.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 3:01pm by someproteinguy
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#23308 Aug 07 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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I would add that in a sandbox you don't have to follow a certain progression, and you don't have to quest to progress. For instance, to me WoW, Rift, LotRO, GW2, are all not sandbox games because when I create my first character I have to go to a certain zone for my level, and then go zone by zone according to level, and (especially the "new" WoW) even go area by area within a zone by following quest givers.

In games like EVE Online and Skyrim, you can essentially go and do whatever you want. Character progression is still based upon leveling up certain skills but you can still explore, catch butterflies, shoot crabs, collect plates and leave them in a pile on the streets of Whiterun, and on and on.

I guess that's why they're called sandbox. The developers provide a place for you to go and use your imagination to find fun. In an MMO like Eve, the players actually create much, if not all, of the content. In a single player game like Skyrim, there is plenty of content but you get to choose what you want to do and even if you want to do it at all. Love dungeon crawling? Plenty of that for you. Quests? They're all over the place. Exploration? Lots of cool things to see. You can pick up most anything and then drop it most anywhere. You can craft stuff, become a werewolf, become an assassin, become a thief, stealth everywhere or beat on things with a ginormous axe, or shoot things with arrows. Stabbity? Got ya covered. Don't like the way an NPC looks at you? Kill him/her. ****, I always wondered if it was possible to clear out all of the guards in a city before any could respawn. Probably not.

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#23309 Aug 07 2013 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
RCT3: Want something more challenging.
RCT3 is all about the sandbox and just building a theme park (or even just a ride). It's 99.9% a sandbox building game and 0.1% scenarios that are too easy.
I suppose, but the scenarios are half the fun of the sandbox for me. You know, tinker around, create something, and then see how it preforms. If the bar you have to clear is too low then tinkering kind of loses it's fun. Like create a character build and then try it out, design a unit and fight with it, design a roller coaster and see if it can pull in enough people to pass a scenario, or something.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy just free creativity to some extent, but without some application for it my interest will start to fade.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 3:01pm by someproteinguy
That's why one compares/competes with other people since the scenarios don't offer the challenge needed.

Well that and for me it's seeing if I can create what I have in my mind in RCT3. It's really more of a way to get creative than it is a game.
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#23310 Aug 07 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Stuff.
The hard part is my old drug just isn't doing it for me anymore. Went back, and couldn't stand it for more than a month. Smiley: frown


ditto
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#23311 Aug 07 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
The problem is, and I know how much people hate to hear this, the players. In the past ten years there has been, roughly, 600 MMOs released. The problem lies in that MMO players have become attached to their MMOs. By design, the games are meant to be addicting, and Everquest, World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XI, and Eve Online have done that perfectly. Which is a double edged sword, because while people might leave for one of those new games, they almost universally all go back a few months later to their game of choice.

The only way to get a drug addict addicted to another drug is if you cut them off from that first drug. As long as the, let's call them the True Grandfathers of MMOs, continue to exist, there simply isn't going to be a new competitor. Even if a new product does get a foothold in, that'll be more of an anomaly than anything. "Bet on red, not 14," yannow? At the same time, if you cut off that first drug you risk the addict choosing not to get addicted to your new product so you clearly can't do that and risk cutting off all that original money. It's kind of unfortunate, but it really has nothing to do with quality of the new games. Just that the market simply doesn't work for it.


... stuff ...

But I'm also convinced that it would need to be F2P at this point, simply because the market is too saturated with games in general to get people trying it as quickly as you'd need them to. The point is to make your game accessible and then get them hooked.

There is such potential in a cash shop for customization options alone, that it could be super profitable. Things like extra dye slots and unique skins sell super well, in general. But in an actual sandbox world, that could go so much further.


it could be P2P but it would need to launch a fairly polished 'beta' that was F2P with the game acknowledging that is was going P2P when it went live. in this case the 'beta' would really be more like them handing out free drugs to get people hooked.

would probably also have to have some sort of in game purchase stuff like customization stuff (not raid required stuff) to tide them over until they went P2P.
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#23312 Aug 07 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Horsemouth wrote:
it could be P2P but it would need to launch a fairly polished 'beta' that was F2P with the game acknowledging that is was going P2P when it went live. in this case the 'beta' would really be more like them handing out free drugs to get people hooked.

would probably also have to have some sort of in game purchase stuff like customization stuff (not raid required stuff) to tide them over until they went P2P.
I'd like to think a decently-followed game could get by with a good 6 months-ish of subscription-only play, or at least a F2P limited to a trial version only.
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#23313 Aug 07 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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if you really want to steal the hard core gamers away from their original crack you need to give them more than a limited trial version.

a limited version is almost like trying to get a crack head hooked on your weed. you need to get him hooked on your better crack, ie the full version.
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#23314 Aug 07 2013 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think its impossible for a sub game to succeed. But it would have to be way better, compared to the competition, than WoW was at launch compared to its competition.

I expect FFXIV to succeed, and it's a sub game. But I expect it to succeed like FFXI succeeded, not the way WoW succeeded. I also expect a lot of prior FFXI players will be picking it up, and that the PS3 version is vastly increasing access to it.

A sub game has a lot to prove itself to a potential audience even before they get to play it. Assuming its a purchase cost, at least. Or they could take the EVE model, where you get a 2 week trial, then have to pay $20 to keep going, and then it's $15 a month. Or like $5 upfront, if you get a starter pack on sale.

A F2P game just needs you to get interested enough to commit to an X gb download. And that's it.

Will they be as profitable as MMOs were in the real WoW era? Probably not. But I think it's safe to say that the ship has sailed, there.
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#23315 Aug 07 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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Somebody aught to be able to take the next step from WoW. Although I think the biggest challenge by far is how to appeal to as broad a spectrum of players as possible.

You need something to do for everyone, PvP or PvE and for as many shades of grey between hardcorw and casual as possible.
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#23316 Aug 07 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
I wouldn't say that in GW2 you have a particular zone progression you have to do. The zones adjust to your level, as long as you're a higher level. So you could do all the starter zones without penalty if you wanted, instead of going from zone to zone in the "correct" way. That was one of the things I liked about the game.
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#23317 Aug 07 2013 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Somebody aught to be able to take the next step from WoW. Although I think the biggest challenge by far is how to appeal to as broad a spectrum of players as possible.

You need something to do for everyone, PvP or PvE and for as many shades of grey between hardcorw and casual as possible.


Honestly, I'm about 97% convinced of the opposite. I think we're rapidly leaving behind the idea of having an MMO for everything. I think we'll see more and more MMOs that actually specialize in something, and focus on making that experience as great as possible, with having additional options that are more like side priorities. Like creating a PVP-centric game, a la GW2 or ESO, and also including dungeons. Nearly no one is going to play for the dungeons, but PVPers occasionally want to do them.

Likewise, you create a game with an extensive dungeon system and toss in BGs. You don't bother pretending they're anything other than games, and the vast majority of people accessing that content do so as a way to shake things up a little.

The market is just too saturated at this point to try for the something-for-everyone approach WoW had.

PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I wouldn't say that in GW2 you have a particular zone progression you have to do. The zones adjust to your level, as long as you're a higher level. So you could do all the starter zones without penalty if you wanted, instead of going from zone to zone in the "correct" way. That was one of the things I liked about the game.


But the item rewards don't scale. That was a huge problem. I happily took advantage of the level scaling feature to not feel rushed, but by the time you're in the 40s the gear rewards/local zone rewards are so far below your level that you're seriously underpowered if you try and go to level-appropriate content.

So eventually you run out of levels and you STILL need to continue doing zones just to work your way up to appropriate gear for the endgame farming.
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#23318 Aug 07 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Horsemouth wrote:
if you really want to steal the hard core gamers away from their original crack you need to give them more than a limited trial version.

a limited version is almost like trying to get a crack head hooked on your weed. you need to get him hooked on your better crack, ie the full version.
I suppose. I can't seem to stomach the $50 for GW2, but I had no problems spending $40 over 3 months unlocking parts of TERA.
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#23319 Aug 08 2013 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
Dota 2 is my crack now. Broke 750 hours a while back, coming up on a thousand soon.
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#23320 Aug 08 2013 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Somebody aught to be able to take the next step from WoW. Although I think the biggest challenge by far is how to appeal to as broad a spectrum of players as possible.

You need something to do for everyone, PvP or PvE and for as many shades of grey between hardcorw and casual as possible.


Honestly, I'm about 97% convinced of the opposite. I think we're rapidly leaving behind the idea of having an MMO for everything. I think we'll see more and more MMOs that actually specialize in something, and focus on making that experience as great as possible, with having additional options that are more like side priorities. Like creating a PVP-centric game, a la GW2 or ESO, and also including dungeons. Nearly no one is going to play for the dungeons, but PVPers occasionally want to do them.

Likewise, you create a game with an extensive dungeon system and toss in BGs. You don't bother pretending they're anything other than games, and the vast majority of people accessing that content do so as a way to shake things up a little.

The market is just too saturated at this point to try for the something-for-everyone approach WoW had.
I think that if you don't offer that something for everyone experience, you'll miss out on the giant group of people who do a little of everything but don't go for one thing. And while most of those are probably still playing WoW, I'm guessing that more and more will start to look for something else as a game inevitable becomes stale after playing it for the better part of a decade.
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#23321 Aug 08 2013 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Somebody aught to be able to take the next step from WoW. Although I think the biggest challenge by far is how to appeal to as broad a spectrum of players as possible.

You need something to do for everyone, PvP or PvE and for as many shades of grey between hardcorw and casual as possible.


Honestly, I'm about 97% convinced of the opposite. I think we're rapidly leaving behind the idea of having an MMO for everything. I think we'll see more and more MMOs that actually specialize in something, and focus on making that experience as great as possible, with having additional options that are more like side priorities. Like creating a PVP-centric game, a la GW2 or ESO, and also including dungeons. Nearly no one is going to play for the dungeons, but PVPers occasionally want to do them.

Likewise, you create a game with an extensive dungeon system and toss in BGs. You don't bother pretending they're anything other than games, and the vast majority of people accessing that content do so as a way to shake things up a little.

The market is just too saturated at this point to try for the something-for-everyone approach WoW had.
I think that if you don't offer that something for everyone experience, you'll miss out on the giant group of people who do a little of everything but don't go for one thing. And while most of those are probably still playing WoW, I'm guessing that more and more will start to look for something else as a game inevitable becomes stale after playing it for the better part of a decade.


I think the problem is the cost of development (in both time and dollars) to bring in a group of people who are largely not going to be your most profitable player population.

I agree there needs to be a big diversity of content in any game (be it PVE-focused, PVP-focused, etc.) Sometimes, even dedicated PVP/PVE-ers want to run the opposite content. But I also think we're past the point where a game can dabble in everything and work.

But when we're talking about a F2P game, the way you get people to spend money is to have them invest in something within the game. And people who are just dabbling in different bits of content don't generally do that.

I'm not saying all or nothing. I see the PVE game having a bunch of wargame options. PVP games like GW2 have arena-esque combat, massive warzones, and pve dungeons/endgame events.

But I think most gamers are ready to leave behind the days where their core gaming experience gets ruined from balance changes to the other. PVP has been the bane of raiders and casual players for a long time. PVPers are constantly annoyed by having their own game "dumbed down" by changing CC models (among other things) for PVE content.

You need a diversity of things to do. But I don't forsee a WoW-esque "we have everything" game being cost effective at this point.
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#23322 Aug 08 2013 at 6:44 AM Rating: Good
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
Dota 2 is my crack now. Broke 750 hours a while back, coming up on a thousand soon.


I wanted to get into the MOBA/ARTS genre, but the community pretty much terrifies me. It's like the PUG raid from **** - every match.
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#23323 Aug 08 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I think the problem is the cost of development (in both time and dollars) to bring in a group of people who are largely not going to be your most profitable player population..
I think you're wrong here. The dabbling in everything players are the ones who will be buying the little extras, who'll spend $15/month just to run around in the world and who are relatively easy to keep happy and stick with the game where the hardcore PvP and PvE players are much more fickle and will quit when the game isn't exactly as they want it anymore. Or if the game doesn't change, the players will get burned out and quit because of that.

I've seen a whole lot of hardcore raiding guilds fall apart because people burnt out from the rat race (myself included), I've seen plenty of hardcore PvPers who quit (and sometimes came back for a bit and quit again) but I'm betting the large casual guilds who do a little raiding and a little PvP are still around on the server with a lot of the same people while there's been a few generations of hardcore players who have come and gone.
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#23324 Aug 08 2013 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I think the problem is the cost of development (in both time and dollars) to bring in a group of people who are largely not going to be your most profitable player population..
I think you're wrong here. The dabbling in everything players are the ones who will be buying the little extras, who'll spend $15/month just to run around in the world and who are relatively easy to keep happy and stick with the game where the hardcore PvP and PvE players are much more fickle and will quit when the game isn't exactly as they want it anymore. Or if the game doesn't change, the players will get burned out and quit because of that.

I've seen a whole lot of hardcore raiding guilds fall apart because people burnt out from the rat race (myself included), I've seen plenty of hardcore PvPers who quit (and sometimes came back for a bit and quit again) but I'm betting the large casual guilds who do a little raiding and a little PvP are still around on the server with a lot of the same people while there's been a few generations of hardcore players who have come and gone.


But those are the people who most frequently leave because they actually exhaust the content, which is primarily due to the way content is currently structured in games. I you have to wait 3 months between new raids, it's not surprising you're going to get burned out. Create a dynamic content system that doesn't rely on a developer patch schedule to create the content, and you'll be more likely to keep those players.

But my experience with F2P games suggest that you're actually fusing two very distinct groups into one category of "dabblers" without actually looking at the reason they dabble.

There are people who dabble because they're not committed to any content and are just sort of meandering through content. These people largely don't invest much in the game. This is the group I'd actually call dabblers.

But then there's the group of people that are incredibly popular who are invested in areas of the game not typically associated with something like endgame content, and so end up dabbling in other bits of content because they're pursuing that end without any dedicated content. In TOR, these are typically people who love the story aspect, and are constantly creating new characters, playing the game as an RPG, and perfecting their characters' looks. They'll probably run dungeons at least once, for the story factor and any particular gear skins they want. I almost never see them PVPing.

They aren't "dabbling." They're pursuing a horribly under-utilized content stream that should be there, but isn't.

These are the people who would spend money and time to get their in-game house exactly how they want it, and do it multiple times for multiple characters. They easily have the highest ROI in the game.

Raiders have never been WoW's most profitable group. Nor have PVPers. Ever. But they've been the most consistently serviced until recently. The reality is that, had things like pet battles and the farm been introduced two expansions ago, and given a small fraction of the attention they gave raiding, the game would have gone much stronger, much longer.

A dynamic world actually pursues those players with the sort of content they're inclined to care about - the content that lets them pick and choose which battles to fight based on RP reasons, and not just give them a single "kill the bad guy" objective. A game that figures out how to design content for the "casual" players who care is a game that's going to make a lot of money.
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#23325 Aug 08 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
A dynamic world actually pursues those players with the sort of content they're inclined to care about - the content that lets them pick and choose which battles to fight based on RP reasons, and not just give them a single "kill the bad guy" objective. A game that figures out how to design content for the "casual" players who care is a game that's going to make a lot of money.
I think that everyone can agree on that. It's basically the next step past WoW, a game that can be enjoyed as casual or hardcore and that is accessible without becoming shallow or simple.
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#23326 Aug 08 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Create a dynamic content system that doesn't rely on a developer patch schedule to create the content, and you'll be more likely to keep those players.
Which is downright tough to do, especially in an MMO context. With that many people activially competing within a system, it has to be really robust to not become simplified and competitive.

It's a rare system that's both easy to pick up for someone playing casual, and also complex enough to keep them interested for the long run. Once patterns emerge it can make the content stale fast. Look how easy it is for PvP to fall into a set pattern. PvP is by it's very nature highly dynamic, but at the same time a decent PvPer will know how to counter virtually every situation they encounter (and complain constantly about those they can't of course). You end up with certain classes that dominate, they tend to use a couple of powerful moves, and a force certainly a predictable response. If there isn't careful balance you get: Warrior does X, Mage counters with Y, Warrior does Z, Mage runs to go get a shaman. The game is like rock paper scissors all of a sudden, which is, well as exciting as rock paper scissors. Smiley: rolleyes

Or you just zerg rush everyone and hope for the best. Smiley: nod

Random spawns get old, big ones get scheduled so people that play causally can to be there to gear up...

Then there's something that's new out there for free, always for free.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
But then there's the group of people that are incredibly popular who are invested in areas of the game not typically associated with something like endgame content, and so end up dabbling in other bits of content because they're pursuing that end without any dedicated content. In TOR, these are typically people who love the story aspect, and are constantly creating new characters, playing the game as an RPG, and perfecting their characters' looks. They'll probably run dungeons at least once, for the story factor and any particular gear skins they want. I almost never see them PVPing.

And then get bored when they have all the costumes the want, and go play dress up in another game until more content is released. Because some people seem to think loading up the cash shop with pretty clothes isn't content. Smiley: glare
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#23327 Aug 08 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
It's a rare system that's both easy to pick up for someone playing casual, and also complex enough to keep them interested for the long run.
WoW took a HUGE step in that direction compared the the generation of MMO's before it though, making the game both much more complex and more accessible than it's predecessors. I think it's a matter of time before someone will take the next step forward.


Edited, Aug 8th 2013 6:17pm by Aethien
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#23328 Aug 08 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
Mazra wrote:
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
Dota 2 is my crack now. Broke 750 hours a while back, coming up on a thousand soon.


I wanted to get into the MOBA/ARTS genre, but the community pretty much terrifies me. It's like the PUG raid from **** - every match.


Really I don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be. Don't get me wrong, it's still worse than say, the WoW community. However, it's not the completely toxic affair everyone thinks it is.

Part of the problem is a lot of people don't put in the effort required to figure out how to play their hero, which makes people frustrated since they often have to rely upon this person in a team game. Imagine at your workplace that a coworker didn't do what he or she needed, and you had to constantly cover for them or else you got in trouble too. You would start to resent them a little, yes? It's much the same way when people play Dota/LoL. Often times they get upset when someone comes in and has no idea what they're doing. It's just like a pug in WoW - imagine a tank coming in and not reading the strats to a fight nor asking for help, just kind of winging it.

That's certainly not excusing the few ********, but it explains it. I still report anyone I see who starts berating someone else.
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#23329 Aug 08 2013 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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PuGs are a disaster. Unless you're the tank and it's low level enough/your gear is good enough to borderline solo the place.

It's half the reason I started playing more and more as a tank later on in my WoW "career". it sucks having to rely on bad tanks.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
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#23330 Aug 08 2013 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Bad tanks, bad dds, bad healers, bad support. PuGs are never a good idea.
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#23331 Aug 08 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
It's a rare system that's both easy to pick up for someone playing casual, and also complex enough to keep them interested for the long run.
WoW took a HUGE step in that direction compared the the generation of MMO's before it though, making the game both much more complex and more accessible than it's predecessors. I think it's a matter of time before someone will take the next step forward.
I'm hopeful too. There's bound to be a good idea floating around out there somewhere.

Whatever it is though, has to overcome that problem with getting people to stick around. Right now you pick up a new MMO and it has two things going for it. First it's fresh, new, and exciting. People put a lot of effort into the beginning parts of the game to get you hooked. Secondly it's free, basically every MMO has the lower levels F2P, and some of them continue it for a long time. Pretty much universally though to be competitive at end-game you need to pay, either piecemeal for items/gear or to get around content locks, or via subscription. At this point the game usually gets grindy. So you're now looking at paying money for something that's less fun than what you had for free. So do you subscribe, or go try the next MMO which will be more fun, and free? It's no wonder companies are trying to re-work this whole "end-game" thing.

Hopefully, this idea of doing dynamic content solves the problem. The only problem I see is you still have to make money off of the game somehow, and you're giving your most potent stuff (that thrill of playing a new game) away for free.
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#23332 Aug 08 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
PuGs are never a good idea.
There's a reason I don't use these LFG systems where they randomly match you up any idiot who can find the button.


Edited, Aug 8th 2013 10:01am by someproteinguy
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#23333 Aug 08 2013 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Bad tanks, bad dds, bad healers, bad support. PuGs are never a good idea.
At least in WoW as long as the tank is good and the healer isn't abysmal it'll be alright. If both are good, the dps is barely relevant beyond speeding things up if they're good.

But if the healer is bad, things really slow down and if the tank is bad... man... the rest is just ****** because the healer's got twice the work and the DPS can't do anything.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#23334 Aug 08 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Bad tanks, bad dds, bad healers, bad support. PuGs are never a good idea.
At least in WoW as long as the tank is good and the healer isn't abysmal it'll be alright. If both are good, the dps is barely relevant beyond speeding things up if they're good.

But if the healer is bad, things really slow down and if the tank is bad... man... the rest is just @#%^ed because the healer's got twice the work and the DPS can't do anything.


Yeah, I think the only exception to this is the start of a new expansion when everyone has just hit level cap and started doing dungeons. Then, everyone is important because if the dps isn't doing their job properly, the healer is going to run out of mana and then everyone dies. But in most cases, as long as they're not ALL idiots, you're usually fine. ****, I remember one time doing a LFG dungeon in Cata where the last boss was kind of tricky, and you absolutely had to know the mechanics to succeed, no matter how well you were geared. I think it was during the third patch, and this dungeon had been out since Cata was released (it's the one where you fly the drakes through the dwarf place), and me and this other person just got idiot after idiot coming into that boss fight who had no idea what they were doing. We stuck it out though, and eventually we got the boss fight beaten. I think I was gearing up my mage or something and really needed a drop from that boss. Didn't get it of course. Smiley: lol
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#23335 Aug 08 2013 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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But even at the start of an Xpac, a good tank can make up for bad DPS or a mediocre healer and a great healer can make up for bad DPS or a mediocre tank but good DPS can only make a bad tank slightly less bad.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#23336 Aug 08 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
I don't know... Those first couple of weeks at the start of Cata were pretty brutal, as people were learning the dungeons and gearing up. I think during that time period when everyone is undergeared, there's a lot less room for mistakes on the part of everyone, DPS included.
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#23337 Aug 08 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Depends on who you're playing with, a truly skilled tank will be able to seriously mitigate the damage (s)he gets and put out massive amounts of threat on all targets which gives the healer an easier job and allows the dps to go nuts but if you have a bad tank the dps pull threat over nothing, fights last ages because of that and the healer is ran dry in seconds because everyone's taking damage.

The tank really is the limiting factor in WoW. If the tank is good it's about how much the healer can keep the tank alive through, if it's a lot you can pull rooms at a time, if it's a little you have to be careful. Good dps can make a difference there too but they can't make up for a bad tank aside from CC which is limited, especially by bad tanks.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#23338 Aug 08 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd like to say the beginning of Cata was more the exception than the rule as they've shied away from those harder dungeons. I haven't really run a WoW 5-man since ICC though, so I'd just be passing along hearsay and whatnot. I would add a DPS with the presence of mind to use abilities other than the max-DPS rotation can be invaluable to a healer if a tank sucks; and may very well save the run.
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#23339 Aug 08 2013 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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But even then, it only makes a bad tank workable and you need multiple good dps for that as CC is so easily ruined.

I've played as a tank and I've played with anything from abominable tanks to world top 10 guild tanks and I can honestly say that a tank makes up over half the quality of the group.

Even in raids, a DPS mistake likely only hurts the DPS and potentially the raid if there's a very strict enrage timer. A healer mistake can kill someone which is kind of annoying if it's a dps or potentially catastrophic if it's a tank but a tank mistake is almost always catastrophic for a bossfight.

Edited, Aug 8th 2013 10:26pm by Aethien
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#23340 Aug 08 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Add to that there's so few of them, and it makes it even more apparent. So many stories of kicking a bad tank and waiting 45 minutes for a replacement.
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#23341 Aug 08 2013 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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It's kind of surprising that so few people want to be the star of the show to be honest.


That said, my prot warrior, prot paladin and feral tank bear sure didn't mind.
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#23342 Aug 08 2013 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, could never do that well myself. If I bear-tanked it was because no one else would. Much better at being in the background identifying and doing the kind of things that compliment a tank.
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#23343 Aug 08 2013 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Tanking is/was easy though. Nowhere near as hard as it seems. Just smack stuff like you would as a DPS but instead of not wanting things to attack you you do want that. Add taunt into the mix and it's a piece of cake.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#23344 Aug 08 2013 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, the biggest problem I suffered from wasn't at all gameplay related. With a teeny tiny 10 inch (25 cm) wide monitor it was like putting blinders on a horse. Lots of swinging the camera back and forth, heaven help me if there were adds to pick up. Smiley: rolleyes
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#23345 Aug 08 2013 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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How on earth do you get a 10" screen? Even my ancient screen was a 15" 1024x768 monitor (although I am so very happy with my current 22" screen).
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#23346 Aug 08 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh I doubt you can anymore at least. It was an early flat-screen from 2003 (I think). I used it up until I got my new computer about a year and a half ago. Now I have 19 inches of happiness. Amazing the difference that makes in PvP, plus having your FPS go from 10 to 50ish is huge as well... Smiley: lol
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#23347 Aug 08 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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I think that's more the 40fps than the almost 4 times as large screen. Although both probably helped a ton.




You poor, poor *******.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#23348 Aug 08 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
I don't mind tanking on my DK. It's actually pretty fun. I just vastly prefer to DPS. Blowing **** up is way more fun.
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#23349 Aug 08 2013 at 4:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I liked DPSing when you were expected to CC stuff, chain-trapping was fun and challenging. The whole, push buttons quickly in a certain order until thingy is dead is meh. It's cool seeing big numbers though.

His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I think that's more the 40fps than the almost 4 times as large screen. Although both probably helped a ton.

Try clicking on the one baddie that's headed right for the healer with a choppy screen and 10 others in that general direction (so the whole tab-until-you-find-it thing is a cruddy alternative). Yeah, I missed a few taunts back in the day too... Smiley: lol
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#23350 Aug 08 2013 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Pff, you can even blow up **** when you're a healer:
Screenshot
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#23351 Aug 08 2013 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hey I remember that. Those were crazy times. Throw down WG every 6 seconds and spam DPS stuff. Smiley: nod
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